How to choose! 6.5cm Load Development

[Precision Underground]

I’m gonna have to get my GAP out to show I actually know how to shoot That one leaves it all on the shooter

For sure. If you’re positive it’s not you that makes it easier to figure out. The easy button would be to go grab a box of 140 ELD ammo and see what happens. If it shotguns like the RR test, id say there has to be a problem with the rifle.

 

[supercorndogs]

If you shoot fine with a large frame AR. Then i would try a different bullet for sure. If a second bullet didn't shoot. I would start looking at the gun.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I’m gonna have to get my GAP out to show I actually know how to shoot That one leaves it all on the shooter

Ok, let's take that at face value.

What's the difference between your GAP and this gun? Are they identical stocks/chassis, trigger, scopes, buttocks? Maybe that's your answer. You just need to get better at consistency with THIS gun??? Just throwing this out there because many shooters ITT have said the same thing to you and you just don't want to hear it (I've been there myself). So maybe you do shoot other guns well and there's something about this one that you aren't as consistent with??? Just genuinely trying to help bud.

 

[Sniper1*]

Ok, let's take that at face value.

What's the difference between your GAP and this gun? Are they identical stocks/chassis, trigger, scopes, buttocks? Maybe that's your answer. You just need to get better at consistency with THIS gun??? Just throwing this out there because many shooters ITT have said the same thing to you and you just don't want to hear it (I've been there myself). So maybe you do shoot other guns well and there's something about this one that you aren't as consistent with??? Just genuinely trying to help bud.

Yep no worries! I’m not offended by everything someone suggests. Well, my GAP HRT is a full custom built to the best specs. This gun is a factory Bergara dropped in a KRG Bravo stock. I don’t expect the same accuracy.

I have 3 rifles including this one setup almost exactly the same. I can shoot the other two (.308s (one Bergara barreled action and one Remington ba)) pretty well or as well as I would expect from them.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yep no worries! I’m not offended by everything someone suggests. Well, my GAP HRT is a full custom built to the best specs. This gun is a factory Bergara dropped in a KRG Bravo stock. I don’t expect the same accuracy.

I have 3 rifles including this one setup almost exactly the same. I can shoot the other two (.308s (one Bergara barreled action and one Remington ba)) pretty well or as well as I would expect from them.

Then you might better try some 4350 and a known good shooting bullet like the 140 eld or smk. It's just weird that you did get a group or maybe 2 that were consistent but then all the others weren't, but still, if you shoot multiple other guns consistently (notice I'm not saying "well" I'm saying consistently), then you need to just try some other stuff. I have some you can try. I have like 100 smk and maybe 70 eldm you can try. Just find you some 4350 and these 2 bullets will tell the tail for sure. Load 41.5 gr with both of these and load you 10 of each and shoot 1 target for each bullet then post it here. That will tell some info.

Pm me and let me know where to send em .

 

[Sniper1*]

Then you might better try some 4350 and a known good shooting bullet like the 140 eld or smk. It's just weird that you did get a group or maybe 2 that were consistent but then all the others weren't, but still, if you shoot multiple other guns consistently (notice I'm not saying "well" I'm saying consistently), then you need to just try some other stuff. I have some you can try. I have like 100 smk and maybe 70 eldm you can try. Just find you some 4350 and these 2 bullets will tell the tail for sure. Load 41.5 gr with both of these and load you 10 of each and shoot 1 target for each bullet then post it here. That will tell some info.

Pm me and let me know where to send em .

I’ll send you a pm and I would expect to compensate you for them as well…

PM sent

 

[Sniper1*]

Ok! GAP targets and a couple of others from the 6.5 again. No I know they don’t mean too much but just a sampling of my shooting from the same setup, same day, different guns.

5 on the left are off the gun each shot.
5 on the right I stayed engaged in the rifle.

 

[Precision Underground]

Ok! GAP targets and a couple of others from the 6.5 again. No I know they don’t mean too much but just a sampling of my shooting from the same setup, same day, different guns.

5 on the left are off the gun each shot.
5 on the right I stayed engaged in the rifle.

View attachment 8009174View attachment 8009175

That’s pretty clear. My vote is that the gun doesn’t like the A Tips but it could be an issue with the gun/barrel. Can you see a lot of copper in the rifling at the muzzle when you shine a light on it?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

yeah that's disappointing. is this a new barreled action? how many rounds? clean barrel?

 

[Sniper1*]

That’s pretty clear. My vote is that the gun doesn’t like the A Tips but it could be an issue with the gun/barrel. Can you see a lot of copper in the rifling at the muzzle when you shine a light on it?

Not a lot of fouling. It was cleaned before I started this process and after I got it “sighted-in” with the 129s…. So maybe 10-20 rounds on a clean barrel.

yeah that's disappointing. is this a new barreled action? how many rounds? clean barrel?

Gun is one I purchased new a couple of years, sold, and bought back with the same ammo I sold it with. Probably 150 at most down the barrel. Barrel was fouled before starting this process.

 

[nn8734]

Not a lot of fouling. It was cleaned before I started this process and after I got it “sighted-in” with the 129s…. So maybe 10-20 rounds on a clean barrel.

Gun is one I purchased new a couple of years, sold, and bought back with the same ammo I sold it with. Probably 150 at most down the barrel. Barrel was fouled before starting this process.

Has it shot any ammo, factory or hand loads, well at all?

My bad if this question has already been answered elsewhere in this thread..

 

[Sniper1*]

Has it shot any ammo, factory or hand loads, well at all?

My bad if this question has already been answered elsewhere in this thread..

Nope but I haven’t tried much to be honest.

The Hornady American Whitetail 129gr and these 135s.

I take that back, I did shoot a box of 143 ELD-X a couple of years ago that it shot pretty decent from what I remember.

I might have to try to find another box of that to see as well.

 

[nn8734]

Nope but I haven’t tried much to be honest.

The Hornady American Whitetail 129gr and these 135s.

I take that back, I did shoot a box of 143 ELD-X a couple of years ago that it shot pretty decent from what I remember.

I might have to try to find another box of that to see as well.

See if you can find some Federal Gold Medal Match 130 berger loads (easier said than done) or 42-42.5g h4350 and the same 130s or 140s at a slightly lower charge range…If that doesn’t shoot well then I’d lean towards condemning the barrel and putting a new one on.

 

[Sniper1*]

See if you can find some Federal Gold Medal Match 130 berger loads (easier said than done) or 42-42.5g h4350 and the same 130s…If that doesn’t shoot well then I’d lean towards condemning the barrel and putting a new one on.

Yep I’m looking at getting some sample stuff and some H4350 that doesn’t have to be shipped almost doubling the cost.

 

[nn8734]

Yep I’m looking at getting some sample stuff and some H4350 that doesn’t have to be shipped almost doubling the cost.

Are you a member of India Gunowners forum? If so, keep an eye on the “ Marketplace” subforum for H4350 sold in your AO if not already doing so. If not join and do same.

 

[Sniper1*]

Are you a member of India Gunowners forum? If so, keep an eye on the “ Marketplace” subforum for H4350 sold in your AO if not already doing so. If not join and do same.

I’m gonna have to look up my U/N and P/W for that. It’s been a long time…

Thank you

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Not a lot of fouling. It was cleaned before I started this process and after I got it “sighted-in” with the 129s…. So maybe 10-20 rounds on a clean barrel.

Gun is one I purchased new a couple of years, sold, and bought back with the same ammo I sold it with. Probably 150 at most down the barrel. Barrel was fouled before starting this process.

Had a rem 700 that just didnt like the lighter bullets.

 

[ma smith]

Has it shot any ammo, factory or hand loads, well at all?

+1 IMHO OP would want to baseline the 6.5 with ammo better than ±2MOA. Not knocking the OP's in any way, but this is just a good process check. Calibrate the instrument before using it as a measuring device.

Right now the group on the right is shooting euqal or possibly slightin inside the group on the left.

good

 

[Sniper1*]

+1 IMHO OP would want to baseline the 6.5 with ammo better than ±2MOA. Not knocking the OP's in any way, but this is just a good process check. Calibrate the instrument before using it as a measuring device.

Right now the group on the right is shooting euqal or possibly slightin inside the group on the left.

View attachment 8009220
good

I agree 100%! I am looking for something to get a “control group” at least. I’ve got some legit help going on in here….

 

[spife7980]

Or perhaps it would prefer to be loaded outside of that one grain window for once...

Youve clearly demonstrated what it doesnt like.

 

[Sniper1*]

Another update:

Still with RL16 and 135 A-tips.
(Got some 140 ELD-M (thank you BuildingConceptsllc) and some H4350 on hold for me to try)

But, I wanted to go back out with what I had….

See below-

 

[spife7980]

Another update:

Still with RL16 and 135 A-tips.
(Got some 140 ELD-M (thank you BuildingConceptsllc) and some H4350 on hold for me to try)

But, I wanted to go back out with what I had….

See below-
View attachment 8014491View attachment 8014493

That 38-38.5 looks pretty nice and consistent in point of impact if you are certain that it was you that caused the flier.
Half a grain raised you up only 16fps with a reasonable es/sd and it didnt drift somewhere else so thats where I would explore and verify it wasnt a fluke due to small sample sizes.

 

[Sniper1*]

That 38-38.5 looks pretty nice and consistent in point of impact if you are certain that it was you that caused the flier.
Half a grain raised you up only 16fps with a reasonable es/sd and it didnt drift somewhere else so thats where I would explore and verify it wasnt a fluke due to small sample sizes.

Both of the shots that are marked "ME" are definitely mine to own. I knew it as soon as they broke. I'll be doing some more exploring for sure. Thanks for all the help guys. I'll follow up with some 140 ELD-M with H4350 in the near future hopefully (weather dependent).

I still want to try to get some more speed eventually but I'm getting closer to getting something that works.

Also, I just ordered a 21st Century Mandrel Die and some Mandrels along with Moly Dry Lube. I use this step on my 300wm and have had great luck with it.

 

[spife7980]

Both of the shots that are marked "ME" are definitely mine to own. I knew it as soon as they broke. I'll be doing some more exploring for sure. Thanks for all the help guys. I'll follow up with some 140 ELD-M with H4350 in the near future hopefully (weather dependent).

I still want to try to get some more speed eventually but I'm getting closer to getting something that works.

Also, I just ordered a 21st Century Mandrel Die and some Mandrels along with Moly Dry Lube. I use this step on my 300wm and have had great luck with it.

Just remember, slow and consistent wins the race. Youll pull less hair out.

 

[ma smith]

Whats wrong with 41.5?

 

[Sniper1*]

Whats wrong with 41.5?

I'm going to let someone with more knowledge than me explain that!

 

[Precision Underground]

I'm going to let someone with more knowledge than me explain that!

Did you shoot them round robin?

Signed, RR Nazi

 

[357Max]

@Sniper1*

Maybe I missed it but did you ever see pressure signs with the top load?

What mag are you using that has you capped @2.208 CBTO? It'd be cheaper to buy an Accurate mag then 1lb of new powder. This is assuming the Bergara action isn't the limiter? I have no experience with the Bergara's. If you cant go longer, try .020 shorter for a .100+ jump and see what happens. I've got a Steyr 6.5C with a CIP chamber that has 147's jumping a mile, but it shoots well.

It's a good move to use the 21st Century mandrel going forward. Should help with SD's

I'm not a fan of the Hornady sizing die's. Had 1 and sold it. They sized the base to small in my limited sample size of 1.

Below was my quick and dirty load work up recently done with 135 A-tip and RL16

My barrel is 25" PVA Rock Creek Button 8T (about 1100 on barrel)
Lapua sml primer brass. It gets annealed after each firing with a Mike's reloading bench flame annealer.
Redding type S FL with .289 bushing & expander removed. Shoulder bumped back .001 -.002
Dry Graphite lube. I run a 6mm VFD pellet saturated in the graphite through the neck instead of dipping the case.
21st Century .2625 mandrel
Fed 205 primer seated .003 below flush
Final load
RL16 - 44.2
135 A-tip loaded CBTO 2.205 = COAL 2.881. I like to always give COAL because ogive checkers can vary a lot depending on brand.
Jump to lands = .056

The starting jump & charges I picked after a lot of reading on here + modeling on Gordon's Reloading tool (Gordon's is free).
For this load I wasn't interested in finding a low node. My goal was 2900+ since this was for a match that went to 1900+y.
For me, having a defined goal and a time constraint keeps me from getting stuck in the quagmire of endless load development.
There was only enough time for 1 charge ladder followed by 1 jump ladder.
I shot 3 charges in PA at .050 jump 43.6, 43.9, & 44.2 and picked 44.2. Had the speed I was looking for with no pressure signs and shot a good 5 round group @100 with tight vertical.
I don't have pics of the first 2 charges just saved the one I picked 44.2

2 weeks later in MD same 44.2 charge, trying jumps CBTO 2.200 - 2.241
I got lucky on the first quick & dirty charge test. 2.200 & 2.205 CBTO shot the best @200y
I picked 2.205 as it seemed a little more in the middle of a forgiving zone. 2.886/2.210 shot a slightly better group &a 1 SD, but poi shifted and group opened @ 2.215

2.205/2.881 @200y with 44.2

It should go without saying things don't always work out this well.

Proves you can have Rainbows & Unicorns without a 6GT..............................and then I screwed myself, just didn't know it yet.
This was all worked up under a pretty tight time crunch. The above 200y shot in the rain just to settle on load length for a match a few days latter.
I went home and loaded 150 of those in brass I already had prepped from a month or so prior.

Get to the match on Friday & head over to the 100y berm, attach magneto expecting 2914ish with low SD.
Nope WTF, now I've got 2965 - 2990 & SD's are shit. Group is also shit @ 1 -1/2" Well fuck me!
Looking for pressure signs as I put these in the case & a fucking light bulb goes off. Fucking dumb ass, that prepped brass had cci #41's in it.
There it was, a fucking inadvertent primer change screwed my load. I know the 41's are hot, but damn +50 - 70fps is surprising.
Luckily I had about 40 rounds left of 130 berger @2950 that I had dope for to 1000. POI difference was .3 higher @100 for the 135's
It was a PITA, but I shot the now shitty 135 load for everything under 800 & used the 130 Bergers for the long stuff. Had a mix stacked in the mag for a few stages requiring the poi adjustment mid stage.

Hey it was fun and lesson learned.

 

[Sniper1*]

Did you shoot them round robin?

Signed, RR Nazi

I did not! I shot these groups one at a time with plenty of time between series to let the gun cool back down. I do understand the benefits of doing so but on this outing I followed a different regiment.

 

[Sniper1*]

Maybe I missed it but did you ever see pressure signs with the top load?

I have not seen pressure signs even with the 43.4 load I posted earlier in this thread... I was curious to find out if there is an upper node I haven't found yet.

What mag are you using that has you capped @2.208 CBTO?

I am using the factory Bergara mag (which appears to be a Magpul) and Magpul mags. I have some AICS mags that I can use but they are dedicated to my work kit currently. I did have to dremel and polish the feed ramp of the action to get the tip of the bullet to clear. I am not ruling out getting some more mags, just working with the basics so far.

I appreciate the information you posted and did actually enjoyed your adventure on your comps.

I think (IIRC) my COAL was 2.882"
I'm running Hornady Brass currently with the LRP and I haven't annealed yet. I have an Annealeez machine but just haven't done it yet. I have an RCBS die set that I could run the FL sizing die instead but was just trusting the Hornady die set. Recommendations how to check my brass after being sized in the Hornady die to see if it is "off" or is it as simple as using the mics to see numbers (what numbers am I looking for? fire formed case sized vs post sizing? etc....)

 

[nn8734]

I have not seen pressure signs even with the 43.4 load I posted earlier in this thread... I was curious to find out if there is an upper node I haven't found yet.

I am using the factory Bergara mag (which appears to be a Magpul) and Magpul mags. I have some AICS mags that I can use but they are dedicated to my work kit currently. I did have to dremel and polish the feed ramp of the action to get the tip of the bullet to clear. I am not ruling out getting some more mags, just working with the basics so far.

I appreciate the information you posted and did actually enjoyed your adventure on your comps.

I think (IIRC) my COAL was 2.882"
I'm running Hornady Brass currently with the LRP and I haven't annealed yet. I have an Annealeez machine but just haven't done it yet. I have an RCBS die set that I could run the FL sizing die instead but was just trusting the Hornady die set. Recommendations how to check my brass after being sized in the Hornady die to see if it is "off" or is it as simple as using the mics to see numbers (what numbers am I looking for? fire formed case sized vs post sizing? etc....)

Check your fired brass using a headspace gauge and dial calipers (I use the Hornady tool).

Ideally you want your case head-shoulder measurement of your sized brass to be .001-.002 less than the same dimension on a fired case. Adjust your sizing die until that’s achieved.

FYI - Hornady brass typically has a more case capacity than most other brands which means you have to use more powder to achieve the same velocities vs others (Lapua, Federal, etc). Said differently, you will hit pressure with lower charge weights with non-Hornady brass so keep that in mind if you decide to change your brass.

 

[357Max]

I have not seen pressure signs even with the 43.4 load I posted earlier in this thread... I was curious to find out if there is an upper node I haven't found yet.

I am using the factory Bergara mag (which appears to be a Magpul) and Magpul mags. I have some AICS mags that I can use but they are dedicated to my work kit currently. I did have to dremel and polish the feed ramp of the action to get the tip of the bullet to clear. I am not ruling out getting some more mags, just working with the basics so far.

I appreciate the information you posted and did actually enjoyed your adventure on your comps.

I think (IIRC) my COAL was 2.882"
I'm running Hornady Brass currently with the LRP and I haven't annealed yet. I have an Annealeez machine but just haven't done it yet. I have an RCBS die set that I could run the FL sizing die instead but was just trusting the Hornady die set. Recommendations how to check my brass after being sized in the Hornady die to see if it is "off" or is it as simple as using the mics to see numbers (what numbers am I looking for? fire formed case sized vs post sizing? etc....)

Simply use a quality mic at about .300 up from base. You should be able to see a line about .200 up from base. When measuring make sure the mic isn’t touching below that as it will give a bad reading.

I don’t have any aics magpuls, but I suspect the back is thicker & pushes the nose towards the feedramp. Should be able to get all the way to the lands with an Accurate mag or MDT binderless mag.

 

[Sniper1*]

Check your fired brass using a headspace gauge and dial calipers (I use the Hornady tool).

Ideally you want your case head-shoulder measurement of your sized brass to be .001-.002 less than the same dimension on a fired case. Adjust your sizing die until that’s achieved.

FYI - Hornady brass typically has a more case capacity than most other brands which means you have to use more powder to achieve the same velocities vs others (Lapua, Federal, etc). Said differently, you will hit pressure with lower charge weights with non-Hornady brass so keep that in mind if you decide to change your brass.

Thank you for this information. I was thinking about some better brass. Any thoughts or recommendations on Large Primers vs Small?

 

[Sniper1*]

Simply use a quality mic at about .300 up from base. You should be able to see a line about .200 up from base. When measuring make sure the mic isn’t touching below that as it will give a bad reading.
View attachment 8015190
View attachment 8015202
I don’t have any aics magpuls, but I suspect the back is thicker & pushes the nose towards the feedramp. Should be able to get all the way to the lands with an Accurate mag or MDT binderless mag.

Perfect! thank you. I assume calipers may not be accurate enough or should I get the Mics?

 

[357Max]

Perfect! thank you. I assume calipers may not be accurate enough or should I get the Mics?

A good set of calipers may tell you if the Hornady die is .002 under a fired case, but it’s not a good precision measurement tool.
Mitutoyo absolutes are capable of +-.0005 or half a Thousandth, but require a good feel for repeatable measures.
The Mitutoyo mic pictured is good to .00005 and has a slip ratchet to improve repeatable measurements.
Get a good mic, it will serve you well. As you can see from the photos. Sized - Fired is only .0008 different. The best calipers aren’t going to read 4th decimal place accurately.

 

[nn8734]

Thank you for this information. I was thinking about some better brass. Any thoughts or recommendations on Large Primers vs Small?

Lapua SRP brass is the best I’ve used and used that brass Fed205/205M-AR primers.

Here’s the Hornady tool I was referring to that I use to measure case head to shoulder

I use this to set up my f/l sizing dies

 

[Sniper1*]

A good set of calipers may tell you if the Hornady die is .002 under a fired case, but it’s not a good precision measurement tool.
Mitutoyo absolutes are capable of +-.0005 or half a Thousandth, but require a good feel for repeatable measures.
The Mitutoyo mic pictured is good to .00005 and has a slip ratchet to improve repeatable measurements.
Get a good mic, it will serve you well. As you can see from the photos. Sized - Fired is only .0008 different. The best calipers aren’t going to read 4th decimal place accurately.

I have some Starrett and Mitutoyo calipers and if I go to my dad's old machine shop will probably find some mics of the same (analog I'm sure, he's been gone a long time but his tools are still there). Thanks

 

[Sniper1*]

Lapua SRP brass is the best I’ve used and used that brass Fed205/205M-AR primers.

Here’s the Hornady tool I was referring to that I use to measure case head to shoulder
View attachment 8015209

I use this to set up my f/l sizing dies

I have that comparator (I think it's called?!)... I also have some pretty good calipers as mentioned above and that's exactly what I have been doing. I hadn't heard of what 357Max was referring to though. Thanks

 

[nn8734]

I have that comparator (I think it's called?!)... I also have some pretty good calipers as mentioned above and that's exactly what I have been doing. I hadn't heard of what 357Max was referring to though. Thanks

He appears to be showing you how to detect pressure by measuring caseweb expansion on fired cases relative to the caseweb diameter before it was fired for any given charge weight (he can correct me if im mistaken about his intent).

That said, I do the same and prefer mics with ball anvils but a flat anvil is also fine. Any expansion greater than .0005 indicates pressure (at least that’s the threshold i use). Many times, the brass doesnt show visual pressure signs nor sticky/heavy bolt lift is present at .0005 so I consider it a “leading” indicator vs a lagging one.

 

[Sniper1*]

He appears to be showing you how to detect pressure by measuring caseweb expansion on fired cases relative to the caseweb diameter before it was fired for any given charge weight (he can correct me if im mistaken about his intent).

That said, I do the same and prefer mics with ball anvils but a flat anvil is also fine. Any expansion greater than .0005 indicates pressure (at least that’s the threshold i use). Many times, the brass doesnt show visual pressure signs nor sticky/heavy bolt lift is present at .0005 so I consider it a “leading” indicator vs a lagging one.
View attachment 8015216View attachment 8015217

He made a reference to the Hornady Dies resizing his case too small causing him to change FL sizing dies.

 

[nn8734]

He made a reference to the Hornady Dies resizing his case too small causing him to change FL sizing dies.

Ok, that also makes sense…so now you’re aware of a technique that can be used for two different purposes.

 

[Sniper1*]

Then you might better try some 4350 and a known good shooting bullet like the 140 eld or smk. It's just weird that you did get a group or maybe 2 that were consistent but then all the others weren't, but still, if you shoot multiple other guns consistently (notice I'm not saying "well" I'm saying consistently), then you need to just try some other stuff. I have some you can try. I have like 100 smk and maybe 70 eldm you can try. Just find you some 4350 and these 2 bullets will tell the tail for sure. Load 41.5 gr with both of these and load you 10 of each and shoot 1 target for each bullet then post it here. That will tell some info.

Pm me and let me know where to send em .

I did this finally! I know for some of you this will be inconclusive but he willingly sent me bullets and gave me the guidelines.

Here are the results. This is the only load I tested this day…. Definitely going to be playing with this combo.

2692 Avg FPS
23 ES
7 SD
The two circled in blue are all me!

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I did this finally! I know for some of you this will be inconclusive but he willingly sent me bullets and gave me the guidelines.

Here are the results. This is the only load I tested this day…. Definitely going to be playing with this combo.

2692 Avg FPS
23 ES
7 SD
The two circled in blue are all me!View attachment 8019646

So you are calling those circled in blue your fault ?

If so you could just roll with that charge weight and then doing a seating depth test. I figures they'd shoot for you with 4350. You could probably tune that a little with seating depth but whatever you decide from here on out, you are shooting some groups now .

 

[Sniper1*]

So you are calling those circled in blue your fault ?

If so you could just roll with that charge weight and then doing a seating depth test. I figures they'd shoot for you with 4350. You could probably tune that a little with seating depth but whatever you decide from here on out, you are shooting some groups now .

Yep! The ones circled in blue were my fault. Called them both out that direction on trigger break.

Thank you for your willingness help and go above and beyond. A small token of appreciation headed your way.

And, maybe I can pay it forward to someone else if the time comes.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yep! The ones circled in blue were my fault. Called them both out that direction on trigger break.

Thank you for your willingness help and go above and beyond. A small token of appreciation headed your way.

And, maybe I can pay it forward to someone else if the time comes.

I'm so glad I could help, paying it forward is the way to go, no need to do anything for me, seriously, but thank you.


So you could now go through the whole powder charge weight ladder and see where your POI stays in the same spot and choose the charge weight that's in the middle of that, then do seating depth testing, OR, you could just roll with that charge weight and move on to seating depth testing. You could probably run it a little faster if you wanted to (can't remember your barrel length) but of course you'd need to do a pressure test, then do the charge weight ladder, then seating depth test, just like starting new, but that's the way that I do it and I think my load is about as good as it can get.

So the man can shoot a little after all....


Glad you got it figured out. Good luck sir.

 

[Thump_rrr]

I’ve done enough tests to be 100% convinced that it works but I’m not at all convinced that it works bc of bullet timing/exit. I doubt the science of minute changes in charge weight making a repeatable difference in bullet timing. The scale is too small for it to make sense.

I think it’s more about the frequency of the vibration in the barrel that is generated by different charge weights. If it’s in tune it’s uniform and predictable. If it’s not in tune it’s chaotic and unpredictable. The thinner the barrel the more sensitive it’s going to be to changes in charge weight/frequency. This is why the truck axle 6mm barrel guys say charge weight doesn’t matter. Because they’re right, it really doesn't matter much with a thick barreled 6mm. Those barrels are going to resonate at a much more uniform frequency no matter the charge weight.

That’s all theory of course but it makes way more sense to me than saying you’re consistently controlling bullet exit on a millisecond scale by changing charge weight by .2gr.

The problem I have with OCW is in the instructions.

“Choose a powder and back away from the maximum charge 5-7 percent.”

I’ll use my example of 6.5 Creedmoor and H4350
Hornady 9th edition shows 40.9gr as a max load.

I know many people who run in the 43gr range but for arguments sake we’ll use the book maximum.

If we reduce that by 7% you are at 38gr.

“Load one test round with this charge. Add 2% and load another round with this charge. Add 2% and load another round with this charge.”

You will have 1 round at 38gr, 1 round at 38.76gr, and 1 round at 39.53gr.

“Add 0.7% to 1% to this charge and load 3 rounds.”

Even if you add 0.7% to this your starting load is 39.8gr.

In my load testing today my best node by far was the lowest at 39.0gr.
My next best node was 40.2gr barely making it into his window but the group size is nearly double that of my best node.

I have used his method in the past but felt like I wasn’t seeing the complete picture
I would rather waste a little more time and components and see the full picture.

 

[Precision Underground]

The problem I have with OCW is in the instructions.

“Choose a powder and back away from the maximum charge 5-7 percent.”

I’ll use my example of 6.5 Creedmoor and H4350
Hornady 9th edition shows 40.9gr as a max load.

I know many people who run in the 43gr range but for arguments sake we’ll use the book maximum.

If we reduce that by 7% you are at 38gr.

“Load one test round with this charge. Add 2% and load another round with this charge. Add 2% and load another round with this charge.”

You will have 1 round at 38gr, 1 round at 38.76gr, and 1 round at 39.53gr.

“Add 0.7% to 1% to this charge and load 3 rounds.”

Even if you add 0.7% to this your starting load is 39.8gr.

In my load testing today my best node by far was the lowest at 39.0gr.
My next best node was 40.2gr barely making it into his window but the group size is nearly double that of my best node.

I have used his method in the past but felt like I wasn’t seeing the complete picture
I would rather waste a little more time and components and see the full picture.

Something isn’t right with that target. To believe an OCW test (to be confident the shooter/something else didn’t induce a bunch of dispersion) I want to see a clear poi shift between charge weights. That target is very random. How many groups did you shoot? Did you shoot them round robin?

 

[Thump_rrr]

It was shot round robin but conditions were difficult.
32F temperature with an 18mph wind gusting to 30mph.
It was shot round robin with every round chronographed with my LabRadar.
Here is my other thread with more data.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/which-node-would-you-use.7169057/

Here is the first OCW test I did.
The difference is the bottom target is with Lapua brass and the top one is with Federal.
There is a nearly 3% difference in case capacity.

This is a more complete picture actually shot at 0F but no wind from a covered position.
I couldn’t use the chronograph due to the overhang on the building.

 

[Precision Underground]

It was shot round robin but conditions were difficult.
32F temperature with an 18mph wind gusting to 30mph.
It was shot round robin with every round chronographed with my LabRadar.
Here is my other thread with more data.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/which-node-would-you-use.7169057/

Here is the first OCW test I did.
The difference is the bottom target is with Lapua brass and the top one is with Federal.
There is a nearly 3% difference in case capacity.

This is a more complete picture actually shot at 0F but no wind from a covered position.
I couldn’t use the chronograph due to the overhang on the building.

That one makes more sense, especially if it was shot RR. I think you’re making too big of a jump between charges. I’d be going in .2gr increments. With that big of a jump in a creedmoor case you’re missing data on the in between charges so the target is going to be harder to read.

If it were me (and I wanted to run the 39.8 load)I’d load 5 more charges, 2 below and 2 above 39.8, spaced at .2gr. Id shoot it on a target with POAs lined up horizontally and spaced 2”-3” apart max. You don’t want big swings in POA between charges because it makes it much more likely that you’ll have movement on target due to variances in setup. See where POA goes in that range and pick the middle of the most consistent PoA(not the smallest group).

My 4350 load is typically between 41.5 and 42 with Lapua brass. Book maxes can be way off so you kind of have to test and see where you get pressure. I’d guess 39.x grains is pretty slow/mild. If you want more speed than that, load .2gr charges up to 41.5 or 42 and shoot it as stated above watching for pressure.

 

[Thump_rrr]

That one makes more sense, especially if it was shot RR. I think you’re making too big of a jump between charges. I’d be going in .2gr increments. With that big of a jump in a creedmoor case you’re missing data on the in between charges so the target is going to be harder to read.

If it were me (and I wanted to run the 39.8 load)I’d load 5 more charges, 2 below and 2 above 39.8, spaced at .2gr. Id shoot it on a target with POAs lined up horizontally and spaced 2”-3” apart max. You don’t want big swings in POA between charges because it makes it much more likely that you’ll have movement on target due to variances in setup. See where POA goes in that range and pick the middle of the most consistent PoA(not the smallest group).

My 4350 load is typically between 41.5 and 42 with Lapua brass. Book maxes can be way off so you kind of have to test and see where you get pressure. I’d guess 39.x grains is pretty slow/mild. If you want more speed than that, load .2gr charges up to 41.5 or 42 and shoot it as stated above watching for pressure.

This is the data from my 41.3gr H4350 load in Lapua brass.
I don’t know how much it will increase as the weather gets warmer.