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How to choose! 6.5cm Load Development
- Thread starter Sniper1*
- Start date
Today’s test loads!
42.6
42.7
42.8
All shot round-robin style!
First test! I installed the “sizing ball” on the die. Processed the brass exactly the same as before. Neck tension was the same 0.004”.
Loaded 6 rounds at each grain weight!
Results
Note- circle is the outline of a penny
Removed “sizing ball” and loaded prepped brass again. I fucked up and only loaded 4 at 42.8 but 5 for the first two.
Results
Note -red square is 1”
42.6
42.7
42.8
All shot round-robin style!
First test! I installed the “sizing ball” on the die. Processed the brass exactly the same as before. Neck tension was the same 0.004”.
Loaded 6 rounds at each grain weight!
Results
Note- circle is the outline of a penny
Removed “sizing ball” and loaded prepped brass again. I fucked up and only loaded 4 at 42.8 but 5 for the first two.
Results
Note -red square is 1”
Was this another OCW? If so, why did you load/fire 6 per charge weight instead of 3? More than three makes it harder to see where the true POI center, especially with the first set…also SD/ES are irrelevant at this stage so dont make any decisions based on those numbers at this point.
ETA: i also load an extra round for each cw but don’t use it unless i really screw up one of the other shots.
ETA: i also load an extra round for each cw but don’t use it unless i really screw up one of the other shots.
were those last groups at 100? I think this is possibly more shooter than anything. Well also something is funky in the reloading room also, those are some pretty high ES
That’s why i only do three rounds in an OCW. Using the red squares, eliminate the center impact in the first, left most square, along with the the impacts at 7 oclock and do the same with the middle red square, leaving the third alone (or eliminate the hole at nine oclock) and it looks like a good node. But it’s not that simple, lol.
O well, think he’s relatively new to reloading so he’ll learn…Sd/es may be high but ive seen them peak at about 10-15 rounds in a string then fall back down to the mean by round 20-30 or so…that’s why you need bare min of 20 but ideally at least 30 before the info is useful
Well I get blasted for shooting too little and I get blasted for shooting too much
Yep I’m new to reloading and that’s why I’m here willing to take the punches to the face…
Yep I’m new to reloading and that’s why I’m here willing to take the punches to the face…
Its all good, man. - we’ve all been there…asking/posting helps you learn…keep it to three for OCWs but do load an extra round at each charge in case you throw a shot.Well I get blasted for shooting too little and I get blasted for shooting too much
Yep I’m new to reloading and that’s why I’m here willing to take the punches to the face…
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Still waiting to see some actual load development rather than just pulling a three tenths spread out of no where.
I’m listening
I tell I’m doing it wrong or not doing something you expect to see with no explanation…. I’ve already admitted I’m new to the reloading thing, what else do you want??
Constructive criticism is welcome! Just criticism is not!
There is several way's to skin a cat with load dev. OCW, Satterlee/ Cortina method, Ladder test. ETC.
If you want I can tell you what I do but I'm not going to say it's the best. I would recommend watching a video or 2 on each and deciding what you like the idea of best.
are you running some sort of expander with your .288 bushing? either ball or mandrel.
If you want I can tell you what I do but I'm not going to say it's the best. I would recommend watching a video or 2 on each and deciding what you like the idea of best.
are you running some sort of expander with your .288 bushing? either ball or mandrel.
I appreciate you input and I’ll take a look at some of methods mentioned.
So if you look at my previous post with the red square targets, one set was shot with the expander installed and the other with it removed…. Everything else being equal. From what I can see it did not like having the expander ball installed.
Don’t know who that is or what it means but I’ll take it!
Any and all help is appreciated!
I suggest you start lower and work up, nothing about your targets so far in that one grain spread you have reported between 42.4-43.4 looks promising to me- provided you are pulling the trigger straight. If you ask me I’d say you found out where you don’t want to load it with what you’ve shot so far.
I would test from 38-42 in half grain increments, 3-5 shots per group as it doesn’t really matter at the max mag length you can get. You are trying to find in broad strokes where it likes to be and where it doesn’t.
You are going to look for a space where it looks promising across several groups and not just one mediocre group bracketed by bad.
In my testing with rl16 in a 6.5 with a 130/140 grain bullet found ~39 grains to be most promising with hotter not being very good. Sadly I can’t find my targets to share anymore with the rl16 tests.
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No, you're just missing it. The best reloading advice ever: control what you can control.
We only control the amount of fuel we add to the combustion process, that's it, but that's only one stinking variable out of a long list of things we'd need under thumb to know things will happen the same way every time and yield the same result over and over.
Thinking that you actually have control over "changing the size of the explosion" by moving tenths of grains of powder to anywhere near the degree where it's more than just luck/coincidence is ridiculous ...and that's ignoring the fact that you'd have to shoot out the barrel (and many more like it) to have enough rounds downrange to even prove halfway that each "explosion" is enough under control and within a predictable parameter window to be sure it was doing what you think it is (and that's before we add in changing environmental factors like temperature, altitude, etc - remember that fire/explosions react differently due to weather/atmospherics after all).
It'd be like: if you wanted to tune a guitar string to a certain pitch, but instead of using what you know works, the tuning peg, to either raise the pitch (tighten the peg) or lower the pitch (loosen the peg)... you'd rather just keep trying different gauges of strings until you got lucky enough to land on the correct tension that gave you the pitch you were after.
The physics are the same, but it's a pretty dumb way to go about it is all.
Part of figuring out how to do it right is doing it wrong a bunch of times. it's all a learning process.
Can we have more info on the rifle specs and how you are shooting these? tripod? camping chair? bipod on a cement bench? sled? rear bag?
if im being honest this looks like shooter/equipment induced poi shift. has this gun ever shot tight groups?
the reason I say this is because the group is moving in all direction relative to the center of aim and what looks like a flyer on each.
I like spifes suggestion to try a lower charge. I would do 3rds every .2 though its just a higher resolution if there is a poi pattern you're more likely to catch it. some of my most accurate 6.5CM loads were lower velocities. sometimes it is what it is.
Can we have more info on the rifle specs and how you are shooting these? tripod? camping chair? bipod on a cement bench? sled? rear bag?
if im being honest this looks like shooter/equipment induced poi shift. has this gun ever shot tight groups?
the reason I say this is because the group is moving in all direction relative to the center of aim and what looks like a flyer on each.
I like spifes suggestion to try a lower charge. I would do 3rds every .2 though its just a higher resolution if there is a poi pattern you're more likely to catch it. some of my most accurate 6.5CM loads were lower velocities. sometimes it is what it is.
Well we’ve gone from “it’s all luck or in your imagination” to “the physics are the same but it’s just dumb”, so I’ll call that progress lol.
Your analogy does not relate to an OCW test. We aren’t looking for a certain pitch on a guitar string and randomly hitting it or changing out the string. The analogy would be that we’re hitting the same string a little harder each time and looking for one of several frequencies/amplitudes that are in tune/uniform/predictable….whatever word you want to use to say that the bullet is leaving the barrel in a consistent way. Once we find how hard it likes to be hit we try to hit it that hard each time. We’re not looking to zero in on .1 grains. The whole point of an OCW is to find a wide window of charge weights where the barrel is consistent/happy. Sure a tuner is a good way to accomplish the same thing, but to say changing charge weight can’t have a repeatable effect on target just bc tuners work is asinine.
Also I think you’re confusing the effect weather and atmosphere have on ballistics with what little effect they may have on ignition on a given day. Yes a change in temp can affect ignition but the fact that heat can make a good load shoot bad actually helps prove my point.
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Can we have more info on the rifle specs and how you are shooting these? tripod? camping chair? bipod on a cement bench? sled? rear bag?
I think the info you are looking for is in the edited OP! I added it but am realizing some don’t go back to look that far.
Here it is again.
Gun has never shot one hole type groups. In fact the groups you have seen with the 42.6 and 42.8 loads are the best I’ve ever gotten with it. On its best day along with my best day I’d call it about a 3/4 gun…
A lot a questions come in about the shooter. Yes, I’m human and yes I error. I can shoot though. I’m new to reloading, not shooting. I can drop my pedigree but it won’t impress anyone here so I don’t want to start that fire.
The only input I’ll add is this: I don’t think round robin shooting is the way to go. I get the point, but when doing it that way, you’re shooting a whole bunch one round groups. I prefer to stay connected to the gun and shoot the whole group so I can manage NPA and evaluate the whole string before shooting another one
That’s how I started and tried the R-R.
It appears as someone said, there a lot of ways to skin this cat! Everyone has an opinion of how to do it right. I don’t care who or what’s right as long as it works.
I do appreciate everyone’s help!
OCW is not shot for groups. If you can't get off the rifle, and get back on and hit the same POI. Then shooting an OCW is a waste of time for you. You are going to have to get off your rifle at some point during the test.
I agree with you about getting off the gun, back on and shooting same POI. But this is load development, not a match or a hunt or or a fundamentals class or whatever. I know you’re not looking at groups for the sake of their size, but you are looking for a central point around which your shots land. I can’t argue with your point at all. But it’s not an argument for or against round robin shooting that I can tell. All I’m taking from what you’re saying is that if someone has shitty fundamentals, they’re not going to glean anything from an OCW test. Which I agree with completely.
I personally have never understood what appears to be the underlying assumption in all of these barrel harmonics discussion: why do no we think that the net result of ringing a barrel with the shot will result in vertical dispersion only.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood all the related discussions but that’s what it seems is the focus of many for this testing…vertical only.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood all the related discussions but that’s what it seems is the focus of many for this testing…vertical only.
Maybe I missed something but I haven't seen anything that looks like an ocw test results yet. When I do this, you can see the groups poi start to move to a spot where they all hit over multiple loads. It's very clear that in a certain range of charge weights, the poi is in one particular spot. It does this same thing shot RR or just shot from low to high.
Either something is bad wrong with the loading process, or the fundamentals of shooting are not being done consistently. I'm not some great loader like @spife7980 or many others here, but I have zero trouble seeing poi test results with my various charge weights when finding a load. I generally pick the middle of the charge weights that give me the very clear and obvious same poi, then tune that group tight with seating depth.
Like I said, either major loading issue here, or fundamental issue. (Unless I've missed some info/pics somewhere)
Either something is bad wrong with the loading process, or the fundamentals of shooting are not being done consistently. I'm not some great loader like @spife7980 or many others here, but I have zero trouble seeing poi test results with my various charge weights when finding a load. I generally pick the middle of the charge weights that give me the very clear and obvious same poi, then tune that group tight with seating depth.
Like I said, either major loading issue here, or fundamental issue. (Unless I've missed some info/pics somewhere)
my guess is all of the above.
Im still curious how these are being shot. Off the back of a horse or hanging upside down from a tree branch?
More shots are going to give a more certain POI. More shots does not mess up an OCW. With fundamentals properly executed off course.
IT might be a worth while venture to get something cheaper than A-tips, and learn to work up loads and shoot with them. Probably quite a few guys that could give a good load for 140g with RL16 in Hornady brass. If you had H4350, I would tell you to load 41.5, with a 140 run a seating depth test and go shoot it.
IT might be a worth while venture to get something cheaper than A-tips, and learn to work up loads and shoot with them. Probably quite a few guys that could give a good load for 140g with RL16 in Hornady brass. If you had H4350, I would tell you to load 41.5, with a 140 run a seating depth test and go shoot it.
Lol…. I have had a difficult time getting my horse to stand still so I tried the tree branch thing. All of my shots were way low though so I thought I would try a bench with some bags.
Honestly, didn’t have this much trouble getting my 300wm to find a load that it like a lot with good numbers. Which is why I finally came here to ask for advice.
You all can question my abilities as you don’t know me, that I’m ok with. However, as I stated before, I am quite confident in my own abilities and pretty sure trying to prove them will only result in more negative comments. So, either have faith in what I’m saying and offer some constructive criticism or don’t and don’t.
For those that do, thank you!
Honestly, didn’t have this much trouble getting my 300wm to find a load that it like a lot with good numbers. Which is why I finally came here to ask for advice.
You all can question my abilities as you don’t know me, that I’m ok with. However, as I stated before, I am quite confident in my own abilities and pretty sure trying to prove them will only result in more negative comments. So, either have faith in what I’m saying and offer some constructive criticism or don’t and don’t.
For those that do, thank you!
Then maybe it's the best you can expect.....Some guns just don't shoot like the internet expectations.
I am not telling you H4350. RL16 was pretty popular for 140s also. I just don't know what people were/are using.
Gotcha! Yeah I see that now! I will eventually find what works it’s just gonna take some time with the components the way they are. I’m just trying to find something to shoot coyotes with and eventually some LR fun.
The gun shoots the Hornady Whitetail 129gr not too bad, but I haven’t been able to find it again.
I for one am not trying to be rude to you, I am trying to help you. This is the thing, with your "groups" all over the place, there is no way to discern any info from them. For whatever reason, your shots are all over the place. Maybe the gun doesn't like that bullet?? I honestly don't think that's the case because the target generly doesn't look like that when the gun doesn't like the bullet. However, it could be that you didn't have your best day AND the gun doesn't like the bullet, or some other combo.
You actually have a few groups, but you don't have several groups from which we can discern any info from. So, it "looks" like the kind of targets that you'd expect to see from someone who doesn't have good fundamentals.
Try a different bullet. First do a pressure test and just see where you hit pressure with a single bullet loaded every .3 or .4 grains. Crono these and get some speed info while doing it.
After you know that, give yourself a grain and a half under where you first started seeing pressure and do a test with 3 rounds per, at .2gr each set.
Get a target that you can KNOW FOR SURE you are aiming at the same place every time. (Depends on your reticle and center dot size ect but this is VERY important for me). Graph paper with green marker works well and you can make the square whatever size you need to so you can hold on it exactly the same spot each time.
Then when you shoot it, shoot 3 rounds before the test starts to warm up you and the barrel.
Make sure your parallax is perfect.
Do a little dry fire excessive while aiming at your target and see if the reticle is moving during your process.
Wait 7 min between every single group you shoot.
Make sure all of your test ammo is the same temp as your environment before you start.
Do not load the round into the chamber until you are ready to shoot it.
Do whatever you have to, so that you take yourself completely out if the equation (bagd, sleds, whatever works for you)
Make sure you pull the trigger each time with the pad of your finger and pull straight back, hold the trigger back each time and only allow it to reset a few seconds after the shoot. (This will help you)
This is about all I can help you with until you have some targets that show some poi consistency
Not questioning your ability, lets assme you are a qualified shooter. the first groups showed promise. Im noticing that the groups round robin are worse than the ones shot together and that tells me that breaking position and getting back into it is effecting accuracy. so we can address that or work on a magic load that will compensate for it in which case we may be here a while.
There are a number of factors that effect accuracy. it could be simply how the rifle fits you from the stock in your shoulder or the trigger. It could be the base you make with bags. are you using a bipod and bag or bags front and back?
I have a rifle that likes to be shot prone and one that likes the bench but Im sure its just the different stocks and me. somone else might have a different experience with the same rifle.
You might have somone else try shooting it?
Sorry if it feels like we're picking you apart, its nothing personal. Im just getting the feeling that the lack of accuracy is more than load dev. but Ive been wrong before so...
On the two round robin sets of targets, one was shot with an expander ball and one with out. That was in response to guys saying I should use an expander and those groups were horrible (the circles). On the same range session I ran the same loads without the expander ball and they tightened back up some (red squares).
I’ve been hearing a lot of suggestions about different powders and different Bullets. We all know some of this stuff is hard to come by so I was working with what I had access to. I don’t expect to get this on a one and done trip or try. I’ll find something to shoot yote’s with and continue to work on my loading process.
@Sniper1* , I’ve waded through your whole thread and am going to interject another consideration. I was developing a 7-08 All copper load back in 2012 For my wife for a special hunt trip. Rifle is a REM 700 compact/youth with a 20” 1:9-1/2” factory barrel. My rifle is a Custom Remington 660 in 7-08 with a 1:9” 22” barrel.
Using Barnes Data and a powder that I had in hand H4895, REM 1 fired, Winchester LRP, and Barnes 120g TTSX.
My error was using MY rifle for load development. No matter what I did, I was getting 4 Min. Groups at 100 yards. Bit the bullet and shot the most promising loads
in her rifle with the much shorter butstock. One load grouped consistently under 1/2” @ 100.
I went back to the burn rate chart and found another powder in my stock that was close, RL-15. It’s developed a consistent 5/8” group in the 660.
Where this was going is that sometimes a rifle might not like a particular powder and you might have to try one with a similar burn rate.
Using Barnes Data and a powder that I had in hand H4895, REM 1 fired, Winchester LRP, and Barnes 120g TTSX.
My error was using MY rifle for load development. No matter what I did, I was getting 4 Min. Groups at 100 yards. Bit the bullet and shot the most promising loads
in her rifle with the much shorter butstock. One load grouped consistently under 1/2” @ 100.I went back to the burn rate chart and found another powder in my stock that was close, RL-15. It’s developed a consistent 5/8” group in the 660.
Where this was going is that sometimes a rifle might not like a particular powder and you might have to try one with a similar burn rate.
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Thank you! I am going to explore some other options and components as well.@Sniper1* , I’ve waded through your whole thread and am going to interject another consideration. I was developing a 7-08 All copper load back in 2012 For my wife for a spec hunt trip. Rifle is a REM 700 compact/youth with a 20” 1:9-1/2” factory barrel. My rifle is a Custom Remington 660 in 7-08 with a 1:9” 22” barrel.
Using Barnes Data and a powder that I had in hand H4895, REM 1 fired, Winchester LRP, and Barnes 120g TTSX.
My error was using MY rifle for load development. No matter what I did, I was getting 4 Min. Groups at 100 yards. Bit the bullet and shot the most promising loads
I went back to the burn rate chart and found another powder in my stock that was close, RL-15. It’s developed a consistent 5/8” group in the 660.
Where this was going is that sometimes a rifle might not like a particular powder and you might have to try one with a similar burn rate.
If thats the case then I would just pick a charge like the 42.8 and work on neck tension or seating depth. some bullets like more jump than others. as a last resort I would try a different bullet or powder, whichever I had the least of.
I had a 6.5cm that I couldbt get to shoot a 140 with the powder and primers that I had. I went to a 130 otm and it's a laser. That said, my issue was that I couldn't get it to group tight enough, but it did shoot consistent groups, they were just larger than I wanted even after seating depth tests ect... it happens, but normally there will be some consistency with it, even if the combo isn't something that will ever shoot great with those components.
That’s about where I’m at with what I’ve got at the moment. Rather than just keep burning them up with no real good results.
Shooting round robin is much more important than a lot of ppl realize. The whole point of an OCW test is to correlate changes in ammo with changes in POI in order to identify a window a charges that produce a similar POI . The hard part is that it’s very, very easy for the shooter himself to cause significant changes in POI. A change in cheek pressure can change poi. Not being square to the rifle can change poi. The angle that you pull the trigger can change poi. The way you breathe, a change in mindset/focus, being fatigued, etc… can all cause a significant change in POI.
Shooting round robin spreads those variables out over the whole test vs injecting them into a single group/charge weight.
Example- you didn’t get square behind the rifle on group 3:
If you’re shooting separate groups for each charge weight you’re going to see a POI shift on group 3 and think that the charge weight is the cause when in fact it’s just a product of bad alignment. If you’re shooting round robin the POI shift will be spread over all of the groups. This may make the test harder to read but it will go a long way to prevent a false result.
The false result we see posted most is when the target is a mess but there are one or two decent groups on target. If it wasn’t shot round robin, there’s a pretty decent chance that the better groups have little to do with the ammo and just show that the shooter had better focus/trigger control/body position/etc… on those one/two strings. If you shoot a test RR and see a pattern on target, the chances of the pattern being shooter induced are very slim bc each group is made up of a shingle shot from each string. It almost makes it a blind test.
H4350 and ELD 140s are out there and available. If you can’t make that combo shoot there’s a problem. Grab some of those and pick a known good load… 41.6-42gr and go spend some time shooting groups while working on fundamentals. The round robin groups say there’s definitely an issue with the bullet/powder, the rifle, or the shooter. Trying 4350/ELD140s should help eliminate the ammo as the problem.
I agree one thousand percent with your premise. Im not cherry picking any one thing you said other than to point out that this line sums up about half of what I’m getting at. It’s been pointed out in this thread that shit fundamentals is going to render an OCW pretty useless. (OP, I’m not singling you out…I’m just making a broader point). To your point, if a cluster of charges is shot round robin, and the shooter addresses the rifle say, 5 different ways across say, 15 shots, then the center of the various groups could just as easily wonder around on the target as they could if the shooter addressed the rifle 5 different ways across 15 shots but shot all charge weights in ascending order. Your point is taken, and it’s valid, and I challenge anyone who decides to undergo an OCW for the first time to spend some time thinking about how they should approach it, knowing that garbage in is going to equal garbage out every time.
Agreed. Once long ago, I chased a bullet/powder combo that just didn’t work until I was seriously contemplating swapping barrels. Then I quit being so attached to that combo and have never looked back. The components you need are out there.
I’m gonna have to get my GAP out to show I actually know how to shoot
That one leaves it all on the shooter
