I guess I'm an idiot and need some help...

[Austan]

Isn't MOA the same out of a $500 rifle vs a $5,000 rifle?

Yes, the measurement is not relative to cost.

If I buy a $500 rifle and it shoots MOA @100m wont it still be MOA at say 1000m?

If you ignore all external factors, yes. In the real world, no, because of all the external factors. Even if we were to ignore the shooter, the environmentals compound at distance. The impact of these factors are also not relative to cost.

 

[houndog]

For those of you that think a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards is, by definition, a 1 MOA rifle at 500 or 1000 yards, I've got something that will really blow your mind. Sometimes a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards can be sub MOA at 2-300 yards.

 

[BurtG]

Better get my waders. Shits getting deep. Into the “bullets go to sleep” territory

 

[TheBigCountry]

Better get my waders. Shits getting deep. Into the “bullets go to sleep” territory

 

[AznTactical]

For those of you that think a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards is, by definition, a 1 MOA rifle at 500 or 1000 yards, I've got something that will really blow your mind. Sometimes a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards can be sub MOA at 2-300 yards.

What, a bullet wakes up? I'm pretty sure Brian Litz would disagree with you?

 

[Austan]

Better get my waders. Shits getting deep. Into the “bullets go to sleep” territory

HAHA called it in #109.

 

[Ronws]

Can an inexpensive rifle be 1 MOA or sub MOA? Yes.

 

[BurtG]

My Mossberg MVP LR 308 with the 20 inch medium bull barrel is 1/3 MOA.

Let’s see a 5x5

Heck let’s just see a few 5 shot groups

 

[Tokay444]

View attachment 8046075

Let’s see a 5x5

Heck let’s just see a few 5 shot groups

Or just one 20 shot group.

 

[FuhQ]

Here’s a 24-shot hot-lap group @ 100 from my factory 700 5R Milspec .308 Win…. Shot it in about 1-2 minutes…No cooling down, no breaks. That barrel could have cooked bacon when I finished, but she’s consistent. I shot it 10 years ago today.

 

[Ronws]

View attachment 8046075

Let’s see a 5x5

Heck let’s just see a few 5 shot groups

Let me see what I can do. I am in the habit of throwing away targets.

 

[Ronws]

View attachment 8046075

Let’s see a 5x5

Heck let’s just see a few 5 shot groups

Again, when I get the chance, I will get some shots and snap a pic of the target.

 

[BurtG]

I feel like I’m at arfcom but dumbed down.

Says his cheap rifles shoot 1/2”

Only proof he has is a 2 shot group lmao that is barley 1/2”

 

[JBoomhauer]

I took pics and then threw away the target in the trash bin it is over. My firearms and legal instructor suggested it is not good to keep used targets laying around in case you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting. Being portrayed as a marksman in that situation might work against you.

Whaaa?

 

[Ronws]

I feel like I’m at arfcom but dumbed down.

Says his cheap rifles shoot 1/2”

Only proof he has is a 2 shot group lmao that is barley 1/2”

One question for clarification. What is barley 1/2" mean? Specifically, the use of the word "barley." Asking for a friend, thanks in advance.

 

[Austan]

One question for clarification. What is barley 1/2" mean? Specifically, the use of the word "barley." Asking for a friend, thanks in advance.

Probably because it looks like a .7 moa group and .5 would be generous, or because 2 shots would not be considered a group by this or any other shooting forum, but I'll let him answer the question directly.

 

[Ronws]

Probably because it looks like a .7 moa group and .5 would be generous, or because 2 shots would not be considered a group by this or any other shooting forum, but I'll let him answer the question directly.

Thanks

 

[houndog]

Here’s a 24-shot hot-lap group @ 100 from my factory 700 5R Milspec .308 Win…. Shot it in about 1-2 minutes…No cooling down, no breaks. That barrel could have cooked bacon when I finished, but she’s consistent. I shot it 10 years ago today.

View attachment 8046229

See you pulled shot no. 24 a hair.

Story of my life. If I shoot 5 shot groups, shot no. 5 will inevitably be pulled. Ten shot groups - it will be no. 10, particularly if I've got a really good group going. Don't normally shoot more than ten shot groups, but the one time I was shooting a friendly competition at my local club where it was 20 shots at a single target I pulled no. 20. Would have "won" the competition if I could have put that shot in the same hole as the other 19 shots.

 

[houndog]

Again, when I get the chance, I will get some shots and snap a pic of the target. You are right to ask for proof and I should have had a pic handy and ready for that. So, thanks for calling me out on that.

In the meantime, I did take a pic of shots from another inexpensive rifle of mine. I took pics and then threw away the target in the trash bin it is over. My firearms and legal instructor suggested it is not good to keep used targets laying around in case you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting. Being portrayed as a marksman in that situation might work against you.

Anyway, I got this TC Compass II in .308 Win. Pulled it out of the box and pulled a snake through a few times. Then some grease on the bolt and lugs. Then, horror of horrors, I put on one of my Diamondback Tactical 6-24X50 scopes on it and bore-sighted at home. Set it aside and took care of some other things in life.

Eventually I got to an outdoor range. The target is owned and sold by a company in Leander, Texas but this range was in Garland. The pic is of the first two shots out of that barrel before any zero. Just a grouping. It measured 1/2 inch with my metal tape measure. I don't have a pic of that but I hope the scale of the target helps.

Finally, I settled on Federal Fusion 165 gr.
View attachment 8046732

That was in the factory synthetic stock with aluminum pillar bedding.

Since then, I have put it in an Oryx chassis. In this pic, that is a Venom on there. I have since put one of my Arkens back on there. It is my favorite hunting rifle and I have used it for two seasons. Season before that, I was using the MVP LR 308 I mentioned.


View attachment 8046734

So, my intention is to now get a good group on the MVP LR 308, whether it helps this discussion, or not. I am kind of a nerd that way and thanks for tasking me to back up statements.

I really love this forum. Poster brags about what tack drivers his cheap rifles are. Then posts a single two shot group to prove it. That's all he has because he throws away his targets so a potential jury doesn't discover what a stone cold sniper he is.

Believe it or not, all of my rifles are sub .25 MOA, and if you give me a minute to dig around in my trash can I have the 1 shot groups to prove it, because I'll be damned if I don't back up my statements.

 

[FuhQ]

See you pulled shot no. 24 a hair.

Story of my life. If I shoot 5 shot groups, shot no. 5 will inevitably be pulled. Ten shot groups - it will be no. 10, particularly if I've got a really good group going. Don't normally shoot more than ten shot groups, but the one time I was shooting a friendly competition at my local club where it was 20 shots at a single target I pulled no. 20. Would have "won" the competition if I could have put that shot in the same hole as the other 19 shots.

Yep, Had I not been greedy and tried to black out all the orange, I wouldn’t have pulled that one. Would have been sub-MOA 24-shot hot-lap.

 

[22lfb]

The thing is - I'm not convinced 100y is a relevant distance to show off how good a rifle shoots...

 

[Bender]

If I ever read “If I do my part” one more time, I’m going to slit my wrists and do push-ups

 

[BurtG]

One question for clarification. What is barley 1/2" mean? Specifically, the use of the word "barley." Asking for a friend, thanks in advance.

Auto correct strikes again. I use barley 100x more than barely.

Edit. Wait I thought I was responding to a normal sh smart Ass. Not mr 1/3 moa $500 rifle with no targets to back it up

Look guys I got a 1/3 moa rifle. Off a wobbly barricade standing.

 

[Tokay444]

One question for clarification. What is barley 1/2" mean? Specifically, the use of the word "barley." Asking for a friend, thanks in advance.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

@LeftyJason I nominate this thread for legendary status. There’s some bourbon spewing gold in this one.

@atomic41 deserves an award for post #114 “…150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car…”!

 

[Ronws]

I really love this forum. Poster brags about what tack drivers his cheap rifles are. Then posts a single two shot group to prove it. That's all he has because he throws away his targets so a potential jury doesn't discover what a stone cold sniper he is.

Believe it or not, all of my rifles are sub .25 MOA, and if you give me a minute to dig around in my trash can I have the 1 shot groups to prove it, because I'll be damned if I don't back up my stat

 

[Ronws]

@LeftyJason I nominate this thread for legendary status. There’s some bourbon spewing gold in this one.

@atomic41 deserves an award for post #114 “…150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car…”!

Gets my vote. Not how I wanted to live in infamy but, oh well.

 

[houndog]

Ronws - I think most of these comments are meant to be good natured ribbing. So you actually get some props for not letting this thread turn into a giant p*ss*ng contest that ends up with posters calling one another mouse d*ck and f*gg*t.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Ronws - I think most of these comments are meant to be good natured ribbing. So you actually get some props for not letting this thread turn into a giant p*ss*ng contest that ends up with posters calling one another mouse d*ck and f*gg*t.

 

[LeftyJason]

@LeftyJason I nominate this thread for legendary status. There’s some bourbon spewing gold in this one.

@atomic41 deserves an award for post #114 “…150 ADD riddled Fudds hop out of a clown car…”!

You are welcome to add. It has been seconded.

 

[greentick]

View attachment 8043531

Bridge Math?

My homeschoolers use it and this pic is in the textbook. Talk about a picture worth 1000 words.

 

[Ronws]

Ronws - I think most of these comments are meant to be good natured ribbing. So you actually get some props for not letting this thread turn into a giant p*ss*ng contest that ends up with posters calling one another mouse d*ck and f*gg*t.

Trust me, I feel I have received a good education here and the ribbing has been funny, too. Trying to piss back or explain myself or defend what is an indefensible position will accomplish zero. So, I sit back and enjoy the show. And if it gets locked and pinned, so be it. Ordinarily, a thread rolls back in the pages after a few days of no new posts. This would be in the leader for all time.

It was wrong of me to make specific claims that I have not adequately proven. I am an average guy, nowhere near the experience and abilities of these other guys. So, I learn from it. No one made me post in this thread. I could have simply read and kept my mouth shut, as it were. So, the ribbing and all of that is totally on me.

I don't have any feelings left to get hurt. And I will stop making mistakes when I stop breathing. Hopefully, the mistakes get fewer, over time.

 

[Ronws]

View attachment 8047620

That is one of my favorite clips. Awesome, thanks.

 

[oso1]

a thread rolls back in the pages after a few days of no new posts. This would be in the leader for all time.

This has nothing on a tuner/tuner brake thread

 

[Baron23]

The thing is - I'm not convinced 100y is a relevant distance to show off how good a rifle shoots...

Well, I don't think it is. Its not that the degree of imprecision inherent to the system is not there at 100, it's just that if small then it can be very hard to distinguish at 100 while shooting at longer ranges shows the angular imprecision better with larger actual dispersion. No?

 

[Huskydriver]

Il start

View attachment 8043786

 

[roostercogburn98]

If I ever read “If I do my part” one more time, I’m going to slit my wrists and do push-ups

So what your saying is……………

 

[akmike47]

So what your saying is……………

....if I do my part bender will self extinguish.

 

[The D]

If I ever read “If I do my part” one more time, I’m going to slit my wrists and do push-ups

Handy bit of info right here

 

[TriggerJerk!]

You folks can’t stop now. We are left thinking “Any rifle that shoots 1moa at a 100yds will shoot 1moa at a 1000yds, regardless of price” vs “a rifle that shoots 1moa at 100yds may not shoot 1moa at further distances due to a number of reasons, many of which are related to rifle quality” vs “rifle quality is likely related to price, and therefore higher priced rifles are more likely to maintain higher precision (sd of dispersion) as a function of distance” vs “you don’t know dick, and my most recent target at X distance makes your mama swoon and proves that you are a non-shooting fudd that likely uses a scope with Y reticle adjustments (where Y could be arcFlips, moa [@The Horta], mil, arcsine radians in fathoms, etc)”.

How the hell can we leave this thread in such a miserable conundrum? Now get typing…

On a serious note, some of the responses provided within this thread have answered portions of the question posed in the OP. Would one of our senior members care to sum this up in a concise manner (addressing how internal ballistics might be effected by rifle quality, thereby contributing to increased dispersion proportional to distance, and therefore correlated with rifle price, assuming constant external environmental factors)? If so, this thread becomes a teachable moment demonstrating the complex interaction of factors that influence external ballistic outcomes, and therefore responses provided in this thread, and similar threads here on SH.

This is precisely why we all come here… to ask questions and get the training necessary to understand, calculate, and apply, ballistic solutions. It’s complex, but achievable.

Anyone?

 

[Bender]

You folks can’t stop now. We are left thinking “Any rifle that shoots 1moa at a 100yds will shoot 1moa at a 1000yds, regardless of price” vs “a rifle that shoots 1moa at 100yds may not shoot 1moa at further distances due to a number of reasons, many of which are related to rifle quality” vs “rifle quality is likely related to price, and therefore higher priced rifles are more likely to maintain higher precision (sd of dispersion) as a function of distance” vs “you don’t know dick, and my most recent target at X distance makes your mama swoon and proves that you are a non-shooting fudd that likely uses a scope with Y reticle adjustments (where Y could be arcFlips, moa [@The Horta], mil, arcsine radians in fathoms, etc)”.

How the hell can we leave this thread in such a miserable conundrum? Now get typing…

On a serious note, some of the responses provided within this thread have answered portions of the question posed in the OP. Would one of our senior members care to sum this up in a concise manner (addressing how internal ballistics might be effected by rifle quality, thereby contributing to increased dispersion proportional to distance, and therefore correlated with rifle price, assuming constant external environmental factors)? If so, this thread becomes a teachable moment demonstrating the complex interaction of factors that influence external ballistic outcomes, and therefore responses provided in this thread, and similar threads here on SH.

This is precisely why we all come here… to ask questions and get the training necessary to understand, calculate, and apply, ballistic solutions. It’s complex, but achievable.

Anyone?

I ain’t readin all that, I’m sorry that happened to you, or I’m happy for you.

Good day.

 

[Poorboyr]

I was waiting for the Arken stuff to be brought up…..

 

[wade2big]

@Tompow
There is no difference on target at any distance between a $500 and a $5,000 rifle once the shot breaks if the shot group average is similar. It’s a simple question with a simple answer.

 

[JBoomhauer]

@Tompow
There is no difference on target at any distance between a $500 and a $5,000 rifle once the shot breaks if the shot group average is similar. It’s a simple question with a simple answer.

See post 55

I guess I'm an idiot and need some help...

I think you'll find all the answers to your questions somewhere in these volumes. Good luck. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20508614-accuracy-and-precision-for-long-range-shooting https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28487905-applied-ballistics-for-long-range-shooting...

www.snipershide.com

 

[LSUbeatUby40]

I guess that where I get stumped... if its MOA at 100m and flying true what happen along the way to 1000m that changes that due to the cost of the rifle?

Your perception is that the gun is shooting 1 MOA because all you are theoretically doing is shooting at 100 yards, but in reality the rifle may be much worse but because of the lack of distance for the round to have traveled, the barrel and platform has possibly not shown it's true color yet.

Not every terrible rifle shoots poorly at 100 yards. I had PBR in 308 that shot routinely .75 MOA at 100. Soon as I got to 200 and beyond it shot like a 1.5 MOA rifle which it really is..

 

[roostercogburn98]

Is this still fucking going?

 

[stefan73]

Very kind of you, fuckface

hahaha, reminds me of "Don't make me turn this car around you two"

 

[Ronws]

I can see the value of spending more on a rifle from the perspective of quality control. Any rifle, regardless of price, can shoot through the same hole at 20 yards, for example. But a barrel flexes and some more than others. So, that part of the flight is not showing the effect much, if any. Also, you could have barrel that is not perfectly concentric. It could have a slight drift that you won't see until after maybe 100 yards.

Initially, most people think of a 1 MOA rifle has having no more than 1.047 inches drift at 100 yards. But is it effectively a 1 MOA gun at a grand? Well, the true test is to shoot 1k yards and see if you fall within a 10.47 inch circle. Technically, it would need to land right on that line, right? What if it was closer to center or aim point. Would that be sub MOA.

On a more expensive rifle, more time is taken to ensure consistency. And this means throwing away duds. All of that takes the time of someone who has to be paid for their work.

 

[Maggot]

I know I might be coming off as argumentative and I apologize because I don't mean to be at all but as far as accuracy is concerned what else is there besides how tight of a group it shoots? And maybe to clarify a little, I'm not talking about consistent accuracy over time. Simply put if the bullet comes out "traveling to the target at MOA" for lack of a better term will it not maintain that same degree of accuracy no matter the distance?

Consider a stock Dodge Charger of Chevy Camero. Now s
end one of them to a custom shop, have the engine balanced and blueprinted, heavy duty suspension, racing tires, etc. Which one will preform better. Why? Better machining, better parts, better hand fitting. Same with a rifle.

 

[Baron23]

in reality the rifle may be much worse but because of the lack of distance for the round to have traveled, the barrel and platform has possibly not shown it's true color yet.

Yeah, we all get that slight lack of precision, which may not be visible in any sort of practical way at 100 yards, will most likely be detectable when amplified by distance...say at 1000 yards.

BUT, that wasn't the question. The question (as I understand it) was if a rifle (don't care how much it cost) shoots 1 MOA....not 1.00001...not 1.00000001 MOA....but one fucking exact MOA then a MOA is a MOA and it will be so from 100 to 1000 yards. This is by definition of a MOA as a unit of angular precision.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit frustrated but everyone and their brother has been throwing in all kinds of extraneous stuff to justify why a $500 rifle that shoots 1 MOA at 100 may well not be a 1 MOA gun at 1,000. Well, its its not a 1 MOA gun at 1k, then it ain't really a 1 MOA gun at 100 whether we can see this with our naked eye or not.

Its a theoretical question... a model if you will...and the ground rules as specified are 1 MOA....not more and not less...at 100 yards and hence it will be 1 MOA...not more and not less... at any distance. And yes, this absolutely ignores wind, imprecision too small to see at 100, and everything else people want to throw into the mix.

Ok, I think I need something to eat...getting a bit fiesty here so I'll bail. haha

Have a great rest of your day.