Well… MOA is technically linear. But the actually shooting MOA at 1k is exponential.
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I guess I'm an idiot and need some help...
- Thread starter Tompow
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Yes. We arent talking about the angle though. We are using the angle to measure rifle performance. A Rifle that actually shoots 1moa @ 1k will shoot much smaller than 1moa @ 100.
I think some people in this thread don’t shoot much. Def not much at distance
Why are you getting frustrated? Its an inane question to begin with, certainly not worth getting upset about.
No, I disagree and believe you may want to look at the definition of terms involved.
A MOA is an angle by definition. Specifically, its a unit of angular measurement equal to 1/60th of 1 degree. THAT is exactly the definition of what a MOA is. Its not 1.047" at 100. Its not 10.47" at 1,000 though those figures are indeed the linear measurement of a line subtended by a MOA at those distances.
But, a MOA is an angular measurement every second of every day and hence, by definition, an exact MOA is the same at any and all ranges.
Cheers
I was thinking maybe a 3 oz Vodka Martini...whada ya tink?Try a Snickers.
Hahaha
Maybe I'm old and out of the game too long.
Testing a long range load at 100 yards isn't very useful....or informative.
Testing a long range load at 100 yards isn't very useful....or informative.
That’s like saying my come up at 1K is 7.6 Mils. 7.6 Mils is angular, and the angle is always the same. Why isn't my drop 7.6 @400?
We are just using the angle to measure the intersection of the actual ballistic curve.
Your dial up to overcome the effects of gravity and aerodynamic drag is a total non sequitur to this subject. It has ZERO to do with the systems precision which is what we have been...well, sort of...debating.
Yes, your come up will differ as time of flight extends and hence effect of gravity (which is an acceleration and has T for time in its definition).
But, a MIL is a MIL is a MIL is a MIL just like a MOA is a MOA at any range. Its an angle
A MIL is also an angular unit. Specifically, a milliradian is a thousandth of a radian (0.001 radian) and a radian is angle whose arc is equal in length to its radius. Yeah, it gets a bit out there but we don't need to really care, we just need to know its an angle and that it subtends a line of 3.6" at 100 yards...and 36" at 1k.
But look at the situation with come ups...if you have a strong headwind then your come up will need to increase, right? But that doesn't mean that the definition of a mil changes at all. Its just the environment changed so you need more of those little angles.
See what I'm saying?
Its just geometry.
Have a great night. I got to bail. And yes, this is sort of up there with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Cheers
Cheers all
Yes, your come up will differ as time of flight extends and hence effect of gravity (which is an acceleration and has T for time in its definition).
But, a MIL is a MIL is a MIL is a MIL just like a MOA is a MOA at any range. Its an angle
A MIL is also an angular unit. Specifically, a milliradian is a thousandth of a radian (0.001 radian) and a radian is angle whose arc is equal in length to its radius. Yeah, it gets a bit out there but we don't need to really care, we just need to know its an angle and that it subtends a line of 3.6" at 100 yards...and 36" at 1k.
But look at the situation with come ups...if you have a strong headwind then your come up will need to increase, right? But that doesn't mean that the definition of a mil changes at all. Its just the environment changed so you need more of those little angles.
See what I'm saying?
Its just geometry.
Have a great night. I got to bail. And yes, this is sort of up there with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Cheers
You're right and I give the fuck up! haha
Cheers all
A 1 moa rifle won’t consistently shoot 1 moa at 1,000 yards. There to many outside factors.
But can a $500 savage and a $5,000 AI pull up to the same 1,000 yard line and hang with each other in the accuracy department, sure
If you have both guns shooting excellent groups at 100 and both have low ES/SD with the same bullets at the same fps then everything else aside like BC, wind, mirage etc both will shoot theoretically similar at distance
What separates them is how they foul out. A savage and Bartlein AI barrel will foul differently. Also how they react to heat. Your “for example” $500 savage won’t respond to heat as well as a Bartlein. Therefore your velocity changes will relate to horizontal effect at longer distances
I own both $500 savages and $5,000 AI’s. Along with a good amount of guns in between. And I do have savages that can hang in the accuracy department with a good majority of the upper tier guns I have. But that’s a fraction of the cheaper guns I’ve owned hanging with a majority of the good guns I’ve owned
If outside factors weren’t a concern as well as barrel heat/fouling then fclass guns that shoot easily inside 1/2 moa at 100 would clean the 10 ring at 1,000 without issue. But they don’t
That said my criterion barreled savage 260 took 12th place at a Michigan regional 1,000 yard match. Shooting against many other shooters (about 30 total) with custom rigs. But it definitely wasn’t throwing them all in the 10 ring that day.
But can a $500 savage and a $5,000 AI pull up to the same 1,000 yard line and hang with each other in the accuracy department, sure
If you have both guns shooting excellent groups at 100 and both have low ES/SD with the same bullets at the same fps then everything else aside like BC, wind, mirage etc both will shoot theoretically similar at distance
What separates them is how they foul out. A savage and Bartlein AI barrel will foul differently. Also how they react to heat. Your “for example” $500 savage won’t respond to heat as well as a Bartlein. Therefore your velocity changes will relate to horizontal effect at longer distances
I own both $500 savages and $5,000 AI’s. Along with a good amount of guns in between. And I do have savages that can hang in the accuracy department with a good majority of the upper tier guns I have. But that’s a fraction of the cheaper guns I’ve owned hanging with a majority of the good guns I’ve owned
If outside factors weren’t a concern as well as barrel heat/fouling then fclass guns that shoot easily inside 1/2 moa at 100 would clean the 10 ring at 1,000 without issue. But they don’t
That said my criterion barreled savage 260 took 12th place at a Michigan regional 1,000 yard match. Shooting against many other shooters (about 30 total) with custom rigs. But it definitely wasn’t throwing them all in the 10 ring that day.
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I think it also depends on your usage. My cheapie rifle is now in an Oryx chassis and has an Arken scope. Still cheap but good. Andy my shitty round of .308 Win. And if I can do no better than the .54 inches someone measured for me, that is going to be fine for my deer hunting at 300 yards and less (longest distance I have ranged on the public land I am using is 225 yards.)
But precision shooting is a different ball of wax, from what I can see, never having competed. I have told myself that if I ever got into it, I would go to a gunsmith who is in my own little one stop sign town. He will build rifles from scratch. Including a handmade wood stock designed and fitted to you. Stuff like that and I would trust a professional to do it and probably have to plunk down serious coinage.
But precision shooting is a different ball of wax, from what I can see, never having competed. I have told myself that if I ever got into it, I would go to a gunsmith who is in my own little one stop sign town. He will build rifles from scratch. Including a handmade wood stock designed and fitted to you. Stuff like that and I would trust a professional to do it and probably have to plunk down serious coinage.
But that is precisely the point...we are (at least I am) talking about the rifle system's precision and not the plethora of other factors like shooter intimidation at 1k, wind, instability with velocity drop, mirage and optics limitations, etc, etc, etc. At least I'm not talking about the practical challenges of shooting at 1k vs 100.
Take the rifle...$500 or $5,000 rifle...and mount it on a metric ton of concrete (where's Army Jerry when you need him! haha) with structural I-beams, with EXACTLY identical ammunition, with every shot in a pure clean barrel, shot in a pure vacuum, etc, and if if its circular error probability (or any other way you wish to define it) is a MOA at 100 then its circular error probability is a MOA at 1k. Right?
Isolating the rifle is what I understood the OP was asking about. And yes, its not terribly germane to practical shooting, it is a kind of silly thought exercise, but it is winter and I'm bored (haha).
But one thing this thread did highlight is how many people do not understand the basis of MOA/MIL at angular measurements.
Cheers my friend.
I always found it incredible that gravity affects a bullet considering how fast they are moving. It wasnt until I was in my 20s and shooting much longer ranges than the 300 yard chip shots for uncle sam that I really began to understand what was happening.
Fascinating stuff
Fascinating stuff
From one of the AB books, real world no vacuum. Maybe it better illustrates what I am attempting to say.
Everyone who says 1 MOA at 100 is not 1 MOA at 1000, who is shooting the rifle ?? The shooter is the weak link not the rifle, I would bet very few here could shoot 1 MOA at 1000 regardless of what rifle they shoot with, most here are shooting with a bipod and a rear squeeze bag, LOL. F class competitors shoot bigger than 1 MOA, if they always shot under 1 MOA they would never be out of the 10 ring, look at their setups. Of course the rifle is capable but not the shooter and that is the point.
How exactly do you think people , even terrible shots like myself , shoot groups way under an inch all the time ?
If you can hold 1/2 moa (or way less cause the rifle accounts for some of that ). How do you figure that translates to holding 1.5 moa at 1000?
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Benchrest experts shooting crazy small groups. But guess what. The 3/4” group at 300 doesn’t translate to 2.5” at 1000
Well I thought I was pretty clear on that but I guess some just can't figure out the difference in theoretical vs realistic..
OK, now you guys have me confused. 
Let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose I have a rifle that theoretically is capable of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards - i.e. if shot by a "perfect" shooter. But I'm not a perfect shooter. So when I get behind the rifle the best I can do is 1 MOA. In other words I add 1/2 MOA because i sometimes jerk the trigger a little, fail to get directly behind the scope, fail to put the crosshairs in exactly the same place, etc. Won't my imperfection/lack of consistency be the same whether I'm shooting at 100 yards or 1000 yards? In other words doesn't my poor technique add 1/2 MOA to my groups regardless of the distance I'm shooting?
Of course there my be other reasons my groups are greater than 1 MOA at 1000 yards like mirage, a blustery/inconsistent wind, the bullet going subsonic, etc. But those are environmental factors.
Let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose I have a rifle that theoretically is capable of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards - i.e. if shot by a "perfect" shooter. But I'm not a perfect shooter. So when I get behind the rifle the best I can do is 1 MOA. In other words I add 1/2 MOA because i sometimes jerk the trigger a little, fail to get directly behind the scope, fail to put the crosshairs in exactly the same place, etc. Won't my imperfection/lack of consistency be the same whether I'm shooting at 100 yards or 1000 yards? In other words doesn't my poor technique add 1/2 MOA to my groups regardless of the distance I'm shooting?
Of course there my be other reasons my groups are greater than 1 MOA at 1000 yards like mirage, a blustery/inconsistent wind, the bullet going subsonic, etc. But those are environmental factors.
Maybe the problem is theoretical. Because that was the intial question, I think. What if a cheap rifle and an expensive rifle somehow had the same rifled barrel, matching to the 1/1000 of an inch and in practice were shooting 1 MOA at 100 and 1 MOA at 1,000, which would be a 10.47 inches spread, then is the cheapie equivalent to the expensive rifle, if they are producing the same results?
I am purposefully trying to discount other factors such as wind, humidity, even shooter error, which is significant. In fact, I attribute some of my fliers to my mistakes. More on that in a second, which has helped me understand what is going on with this thread.
If each rifle were in a vise on a concrete table and you could shoot them both and get the same results, are they equivalent? And is that answer necessary to justify buying the cheap rifle? Still a bit of a moot question. Most guys start out buying cheap rifles, many times, for hunting. Which is fine. We have to learn and the cheaper rifles are good for that. Give it some time and modify and find which trigger you like, etcetera. Some year down the road, you will appreciate the better quality stuff and learn to build or have built what you need to do what you are doing. But I don't think a person is going to get a Mossberg Patriot and win an F-Class. How do I know? I also have a Mossberg Patriot. Changing to an MDT chassis brought the average down to 1 MOA at 100 yards. Which is not saying that it will hold 1 MOA at 1,000. It is a thin and fluted barrel that had no threads. I have put a clamp-on brake from Kahntrol Solutions and that works great. So, I have spent money and took it out of the budget range, somewhat. Sidenote, Mossberg has no accuracy gurantees.
I was recently watching the guy from Canada who reviews affordable optics and scopes. And he pointed that we should quit blaming everything on the shooter. Many times, the problem is the equipment.
Again, the quality control costs money and time and trashed duds. You are paying someone to take the time to carefully ensure each piece is true and to exclude that which is not good.
An infamous example was the Backfire channel experience with the Mossberg Patriot in the walnut stock. Very pretty gun but it was shooting 4 to 5 MOA, regardless of the 3 different shooters. And those guys are good shooters with hunting experience, not just the same old range every time. They sent back for warranty. It was serviced and sent back and produced the same results. A few times, the shot did not even land on paper. I have since figured out what the problem is and it is the lack of proper bedding. The rear of the action will have too much movement that you cannot see. In their synthetic stocks, there is a gap in the rear action screw guide and it is made that way. Plus the plastic removable mag well is used as a shim. I would suggest to any hunter buying that rifle to assume that he will be getting a Boyd's with pillar bedding or a chassis, even for hunting.
Also, as far as shooting a rifle at 1,000 yards, even if you hit within a zone of 10.47 inches instead of just on the line, that is still a 1 MOA rifle, not a sub-MOA rifle. At least that is how it makes sense to me.
I am purposefully trying to discount other factors such as wind, humidity, even shooter error, which is significant. In fact, I attribute some of my fliers to my mistakes. More on that in a second, which has helped me understand what is going on with this thread.
If each rifle were in a vise on a concrete table and you could shoot them both and get the same results, are they equivalent? And is that answer necessary to justify buying the cheap rifle? Still a bit of a moot question. Most guys start out buying cheap rifles, many times, for hunting. Which is fine. We have to learn and the cheaper rifles are good for that. Give it some time and modify and find which trigger you like, etcetera. Some year down the road, you will appreciate the better quality stuff and learn to build or have built what you need to do what you are doing. But I don't think a person is going to get a Mossberg Patriot and win an F-Class. How do I know? I also have a Mossberg Patriot. Changing to an MDT chassis brought the average down to 1 MOA at 100 yards. Which is not saying that it will hold 1 MOA at 1,000. It is a thin and fluted barrel that had no threads. I have put a clamp-on brake from Kahntrol Solutions and that works great. So, I have spent money and took it out of the budget range, somewhat. Sidenote, Mossberg has no accuracy gurantees.
I was recently watching the guy from Canada who reviews affordable optics and scopes. And he pointed that we should quit blaming everything on the shooter. Many times, the problem is the equipment.
Again, the quality control costs money and time and trashed duds. You are paying someone to take the time to carefully ensure each piece is true and to exclude that which is not good.
An infamous example was the Backfire channel experience with the Mossberg Patriot in the walnut stock. Very pretty gun but it was shooting 4 to 5 MOA, regardless of the 3 different shooters. And those guys are good shooters with hunting experience, not just the same old range every time. They sent back for warranty. It was serviced and sent back and produced the same results. A few times, the shot did not even land on paper. I have since figured out what the problem is and it is the lack of proper bedding. The rear of the action will have too much movement that you cannot see. In their synthetic stocks, there is a gap in the rear action screw guide and it is made that way. Plus the plastic removable mag well is used as a shim. I would suggest to any hunter buying that rifle to assume that he will be getting a Boyd's with pillar bedding or a chassis, even for hunting.
Also, as far as shooting a rifle at 1,000 yards, even if you hit within a zone of 10.47 inches instead of just on the line, that is still a 1 MOA rifle, not a sub-MOA rifle. At least that is how it makes sense to me.
If I took a Savage and put a custom Bartlein barrel on it, then removed the same exact custom barrel and put on a Zermatt, groups would likely be very similar at all ranges as long as there is no major alignment issues or issues in feeding causing bullet deformation.
Now the chances of getting a custom Bartlein quality barrel with similar surface finish and consistency out of a factory Savage are slim to none.
This is not saying the factory savage will shoot “bad”
And considering the custom Bartlein barrel probably cost more than the complete Savage rifle & you are swapping out the major component of the rifle, this is no longer your $500 gun shoots as good as your $5000 gun, it's now custom build on one action vs custom build on another action.
I just checked. Bartlein barrels, which are available in 3 different riflings, start at $412.50. That, to me, is not expensive but yes, that barrel is more expensive than what my TC Compass II cost as a whole. So, get the right action.
Some actions can be a few grand. Makes sense. The action will always be there and you change rifles as you burn them out.
Then decisions on trigger assemblies, choice of stock or chassis. And then, you could spend a pretty penny on some pretty optics. It cost more in parts and QC to get a rock solid optic with great glass and lots of adjustment. Something that will not fog up and can take some abuse.
Some actions can be a few grand. Makes sense. The action will always be there and you change rifles as you burn them out.
Then decisions on trigger assemblies, choice of stock or chassis. And then, you could spend a pretty penny on some pretty optics. It cost more in parts and QC to get a rock solid optic with great glass and lots of adjustment. Something that will not fog up and can take some abuse.
So the barrel blank "Starts" at $412.50
Now how much does it cost to get it threaded, fitted, trimmed, chambered, and all that so it actually can be put on the rifle?
(and if you are doing it yourself add fair market value to be realistic).
True. That is the blank price and that is why they say it starts at $412.50.
But since we are on the topic of more expensive is better, what, then, is too expensive. Someone I know got an MRAD and that cost a few pretty pennies.
As for me, I would hire a professional to build me one.
Yep, my Bartlein .264, MTU, 400MODBB, 8-7.5, left twist came to $635 for the blank. Just the blank. But it’s a great barrel. Haha
And Mark at Bartlein was great and it came in well faster than their projected lead times.
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One of my shooting buddies has that Barrett. He has three barrels and all of them are super accurate. Return to zero is fantastic.
Too damn rich for my poor ass though.
On the subject of a good barrel on a Savage and then installing it on another action:
I've done that with a Criterion in 6-BR.
It shoots exactly the same as before, but feeding and extracting from the Origin is 100x better. So is the nice trigger.
It does take that $500 Savage and turn it into an almost $1k rifle...
But consider all the wisdom and expertise you gained from trying and learning. I’d say that is with more than buying a 1/4 moa gun out of the gate.
I also think there are different reasons for having different guns. Plenty is the person who shot deer with a .30-30 that was barely one minute of deer. And I am well aware of the limits of, for example, my TC Compass II in .308 Win. As others here have called a shit round. First two shots with a Vortex Diamondback Tactical, deemed a shit scope. My first two shots were analyzed well by someone more accurate than me and found it was actually .54 inches between centers and not .50 inches I had measured with my standard tape measure. As MOA is minute of angle, it is equal to 1.047 inches. So, .54 inches divided by 1.047 inches equals (rounded up) .516 MOA. The factory actually has a guarantee of 1 MOA on the first three shots with store bought ammunition. I was using Hornaday SST 150 grain that day. Later, I switched to Federal Fusion 165 grain, which has been more consistent with this rifle. I changed from the factory synthetic stock that had aluminum pillar bedding and put it in an Oryx chassis, which only helped because the chassis is the bedding and there is a lot of air between the forend and the barrel. I have on there an Silencerco ASR2 muzzle brake. Later, if I want to get a suppressor, it fits right on that brake.
Later, I put on a Vortex Venom. Now, I have from last year, an Arken scope. Actually slight cheaper but with features more suitable to me. Namely, ease of adjusting zero stop and also, more importantly, more elevation adjustment.
All this for a hunting rifle. But it is comfortable and performs well enough on my shoulder and it has been my favorite hunting rifle for 3 seasons. Most places I am hunting, it is a stretch to get past 200 yards. So, I am well within the accuracy limits of my cheap rifle, shitty ammo, and shit scope. I will hunt feral hog with it but sometimes, I will also hunt hogs with my 5.56 with iron sights and a 5 inch rise and fall to MPBR of 300 yards.
And what I have learned or have become more clear on is that precision rifle is a different world. .01 MOA difference makes a difference. What also really helped me in the path to understanding the need to find accuracy is watching the podcast "Believe the Target" with Erik Cortina on the episode he had with our illustrious host, Frank.
Frank had mentioned that his comfortable parameter is 3/8 inch spread or less. The value of that is not only keeping consistent in the goal but letting it drive your gun build and even the tuning of your body to it. I could see, as he talks about his class, where you not only work on different positions and eye relief but also different trigger breaks. Maybe a different trigger group entirely.
With practice, you can become a consistently good shooter and to do that, you need a consistently good tool.
For example, Bartlein will hand lap the barrel. That is an extra step in the process that makes for a better barrrel. And it costs money for someone who has a family to support and put through college to do that extra work.
I don't plan to dox myself but I work in an industry that deals with what many might call a luxury item (nothing to do with guns or anything here, although someone I know in that world is an avid hunter and marksman with training and an enviable collection, including an MRAD.) That luxury item pays our paychecks. And we are the best at what we do. We also cost a little more than our competitors. You get what you pay for.
Can you buy a $400 rifle and shoot 1 MOA at a grand? Possibly. And it would be the luck of the Irish. As opposed to paying for assuredness.
Later, I put on a Vortex Venom. Now, I have from last year, an Arken scope. Actually slight cheaper but with features more suitable to me. Namely, ease of adjusting zero stop and also, more importantly, more elevation adjustment.
All this for a hunting rifle. But it is comfortable and performs well enough on my shoulder and it has been my favorite hunting rifle for 3 seasons. Most places I am hunting, it is a stretch to get past 200 yards. So, I am well within the accuracy limits of my cheap rifle, shitty ammo, and shit scope. I will hunt feral hog with it but sometimes, I will also hunt hogs with my 5.56 with iron sights and a 5 inch rise and fall to MPBR of 300 yards.
And what I have learned or have become more clear on is that precision rifle is a different world. .01 MOA difference makes a difference. What also really helped me in the path to understanding the need to find accuracy is watching the podcast "Believe the Target" with Erik Cortina on the episode he had with our illustrious host, Frank.
Frank had mentioned that his comfortable parameter is 3/8 inch spread or less. The value of that is not only keeping consistent in the goal but letting it drive your gun build and even the tuning of your body to it. I could see, as he talks about his class, where you not only work on different positions and eye relief but also different trigger breaks. Maybe a different trigger group entirely.
With practice, you can become a consistently good shooter and to do that, you need a consistently good tool.
For example, Bartlein will hand lap the barrel. That is an extra step in the process that makes for a better barrrel. And it costs money for someone who has a family to support and put through college to do that extra work.
I don't plan to dox myself but I work in an industry that deals with what many might call a luxury item (nothing to do with guns or anything here, although someone I know in that world is an avid hunter and marksman with training and an enviable collection, including an MRAD.) That luxury item pays our paychecks. And we are the best at what we do. We also cost a little more than our competitors. You get what you pay for.
Can you buy a $400 rifle and shoot 1 MOA at a grand? Possibly. And it would be the luck of the Irish. As opposed to paying for assuredness.
My last one purchased was pushing $900. Certainly no $500 rifle anymore.
Maybe everything is just solved by fitting a $15,000 scope? There is one on Gunbroker now. Though I hear it May have been discounted.
Sirhr
Sirhr
One video I have always bragged about was Rob Arrington bringing down a canadian moose with his 6.5 Creedmoor. It was a Howa 1500. Not the most expensive rifle. Really, it was their budget line. But he had a Burris Eliminator III scope on there. That's over $1600 dollars, which is following the old advice of spending twice on optics what you spend on rifle. If you cannot see what you are doing, you will be off.
I've held .75Moa in 15 mph
at 300yds . It's doable , it takes determination . After shooting 300 the same day went back to 100 .
Was so focused on fundamentals at 300 that when I shot 100 I produced (1) .25 irregular hole . Used FGGM and a Savage 10 T in .308 .
sure, a 1moa rifle will shoot just like a 1moa rifle at any range....
the average shooter buying a $500 rifle would likely be happy to get a 1moa rifle.
the shooter buying a $5k rifle would likeley be extremely unhappy if it was "only" capable of 1moa. I'd return it as defective.
think, the likes of savage, remington, ruger, howa seem to all have a 1moa guarantee (some for a single 5 shot group, some only a 3shot...) 1mo isnt that high of a bar.....
If I paid $5k (and I use aussie pretend $ not yank real $)for a rifle it had damn well better get 0.3moa (or better) "all day long" "if I do my part" (wheres bender and his push ups?) and I'd be expecting "random acts of accuracy" in the sub 0.1's (my current "best" rifle is sub $2k and averages somewhere in the 0.7's (for bender) "when I do my part" and has had a few random acts of accuracy in the 0.3's... it does all I need it to do. if I wanted better, I'd go a full custom, or press the easy button and get an ai ax (about $7k here last I looked)
on average, getting to moa is easy, getting better than that the $ stack up fast.
the average shooter buying a $500 rifle would likely be happy to get a 1moa rifle.
the shooter buying a $5k rifle would likeley be extremely unhappy if it was "only" capable of 1moa. I'd return it as defective.
think, the likes of savage, remington, ruger, howa seem to all have a 1moa guarantee (some for a single 5 shot group, some only a 3shot...) 1mo isnt that high of a bar.....
If I paid $5k (and I use aussie pretend $ not yank real $)for a rifle it had damn well better get 0.3moa (or better) "all day long" "if I do my part" (wheres bender and his push ups?) and I'd be expecting "random acts of accuracy" in the sub 0.1's (my current "best" rifle is sub $2k and averages somewhere in the 0.7's (for bender) "when I do my part" and has had a few random acts of accuracy in the 0.3's... it does all I need it to do. if I wanted better, I'd go a full custom, or press the easy button and get an ai ax (about $7k here last I looked)
on average, getting to moa is easy, getting better than that the $ stack up fast.
