I need opinions.

[BigRed308]

Hey guys,

I just flat out need opinions. Im having some issues getting out to longer ranges to shoot my 1500 in 308 at the distances I would like. Thus, I am thinking about building a 22lr to shoot from 25 yards to roughly 350 yards-essentially, a trainer. I am not sure which direction I want to go though. I will defiantly be throwing on a thunder beast 22 takedown suppressor. I have a standard Ruger American and a 10/22 factory heavy barrel. I could build those rifles up but the 10/22 doesn't have the accuracy standard I would like. Thus, I am weighing my options between a CZ 455, 457, or a more custom build like a Vudoo V-22. My only concern, is I don't want to spend top dollar, if it doesn't pay off. I am not saying V-22s aren't worth the money, because if they are I'll probably invest in one. What builds are already out there and what has been spent in the rifle itself. Where would you guys recommend looking, since like many of you, I am an absolute accuracy snob and would test this new rifle to get the smallest groups possible then push it to distance. Thanks in advance.

 

[101stinfantry]

How much you want to spend? Anshutz has some nice options that you can just take out of the box and start shooting. If you want to build then there is the Voodoo, Anshutz custom shop, Kidd, Volquartson. The plus with the CZ is you can do most of it on your own.

 

[Snuby642]

Have you considered just upgrading the 10/22?
Aftermarket barrel, trigger, stock.
With good ammo you could be sub moa easily, no gunsmith work.

Don't have an opinion on cz they are very popular.
Budget constraints on the vudo for me would put it in the serious comp zone.

 

[BigRed308]

Id like to be in the $1500 range on the rifle. Not including the can, nor the optic. I know the voodoo is around the $1700 range for the barreled action alone. I have thought about getting a receiver and having my smith fit a Bartlein to it. However, the budget can sway as we all know. I have considered the 10/22 but I would like a good bolt action. On the other hand, i have not been very impressed with the 10/22. I have reservations about investing money into a 10/22 for it to still be a 10/22 at the end of the day.

 

[Snuby642]

With that budget you can easily do better than a 10/22.

They are a fun low budget gun and upgradeable one piece at a time diy.

1500$ will put you in a class above imo.

My next 22lr will probably still be based on a 10/22 reciver, probably brownells
With the built in rail and cleaning rod cut out and a 2-400$ barrel for a start.

Have my own ideas on holding the reciver in the stock better and some bedding
ideas I want to try.

Wonder how many stocks I ruin in that process? Lol

 

[BigRed308]

I appreciate the suggestion. I guess identifying my budget would've justified my mindset in dumping a lot of money into the 10/22. What would you consider to be in the class above the 10/22?

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

another option in that price range is the MPA 22lr trainer. it runs about $1600. cz455 action, match barrel and drop in an MPA chassis. not sure if that matches up to your current centerfire set up but it is in your price point

 

[Snuby642]

Probably everything @101stinfantry said and a few others I can't justify on my
fixed income lol.

How much you want to spend? Anshutz has some nice options that you can just take out of the box and start shooting. If you want to build then there is the Voodoo, Anshutz custom shop, Kidd, Volquartson. The plus with the CZ is you can do most of it on your own.

 

[BigRed308]

I had no clue that MPA made a trainer. Does anyone have any experience with them?

 

[Snuby642]

It is fun for me when guys at the range see my target and want to know about my gun.
The additions to the 10/22 were an er shaw barrel, a decent trigger, a bushnell ar series
scope , excluding the sparrow can, all low budget and normally just use cci sv.

It's not a competitive rig but shoots well enough to keep you on your game imo.
Will get just under moa but does not like the cold with the cci sv.
More scope would be better as the reticle is a bit thick but it tracks and parallax down to
10 yards in nice for some of my wifes NRA shooting that goes down to 50 feet at times.
She is 1 rocker away from de in her league shooting with it.
She has NRA de with her ruger mark 3 pistol, no modification done, she wont let me. Lol

Ruger is good low dollar shooter, but can be outdone.

 

[MarkCZ]

Id like to be in the $1500 range on the rifle. Not including the can, nor the optic. I know the voodoo is around the $1700 range for the barreled action alone. I have thought about getting a receiver and having my smith fit a Bartlein to it. However, the budget can sway as we all know. I have considered the 10/22 but I would like a good bolt action. On the other hand, i have not been very impressed with the 10/22. I have reservations about investing money into a 10/22 for it to still be a 10/22 at the end of the day.

A Kidd 10-22 Supergrade barreled action will run $900. A Titan stock with rear anchor will run about $200. 10-22 around $1100, that is top of the line for a 10-22. A CZ 455, 457 Varmint, and Tikka T1X will run less than $500. The CZ Varmint trainer will run $900 it comes with a Manner stock. I have a CZ 455, Kidd Supergrade, and a T1X, all shoot great, and will do what you are wanting to, without breaking the bank.
Now if you are wanting a trainer that will copy your centerfire, you want a Vudoo, but it will run $2500 to $3000.

Mark

 

[BigRed308]

If I were to go with a standard rimfire action, I think I'm leaning towards the CZ. I have heard the new 457s are on their way to the market. I'll be interested to see the reviews on them. It is nice having the option to spend $500 on the 455 then upgrade as the build goes on. What kind of accuracy are you seeing with either the 455 or 457? What advantages would you say the 457 has over the 455? Thanks.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

accuracy is so shooter dependent. i know my stock 455 is better than me. i'm only able to consistently hit at 3/4" inch at 50 yards. i have gotten the occasional 1/2" group. right around 1 to 1.25 inches at 100. after that so many other factors come into play.

there are lots of pics in the 6x5 thread of people doing way better with bone stock 455's.

i also am well aware of my limitations and for me 1 MOA or close is good enough for me for the rimfire PRS games to go out and have fun, which is about all i'm in it for.

without a ton of reviews on the 457 the biggest differences are a little bit smaller overall footprint of the action / change in action design, a 60 degree bolt throw, a factory adjustable trigger, improvements in the firing pin and apparently all of the models that have made it to the wild so far are coming with pillars installed from the factory

 

[Eoddave27]

I’m not positive about this but doesn’t the 457 have a different footprint than the 455? If it does that would take a lot of after market parts out there that are currently available for the CZ455 off the table.

 

[ratton]

Anshutz MPR, used Sako Finnfire or Quad. Even a Compass Lake Engineering (CLE) 22AR will get ya out there with outstanding results.

 

[flatland1]

I started out reading an online ad that EuroOptic placed about three years ago for a tricked-out super-duper trainer built on a Stiller 2500XR custom action, Bartlein bbl, Manners stock, etc, for over $4k with a Manners with their adjustable cheekpiece. Yeah, it really turned my crank, but I choked on the price. Being a gunsmith, and already having a Krieger 22RF sendero contour bbl blank & PTG EPS reamer, I took the plunge, and ordered the same 2500XR action, along with a Manners T4A stock that was actually an extra they'd made for the EO run of rifles. Going the DIY route resulted in a very nice rifle at a more reasonable price, since I had my own labor in it. However, after seeing Mike Bush's 10rd poly mags that mimic the size/proportions of an AICS mag, and the repeater conversion that he designed to utilize these mags, I decided to send an old, beat-up CMP 40X off to have the conversion done. When it was finished & I'd totaled up the cost (with me again buying a bbl blank & doing the fitting & chambering, muzzle work), I had nearly $2400 in it, w/o a scope, and that's including what I paid the CMP for the complete 40X in 2004. So, if you happen to have a 40X or XB, and don't mind spending what it costs to convert it, you might be able to come close to staying within your $1500 budget - but keep in mind, I went with a B&C #2015 stock (looks like a McM A5 w/o the butt hook, comes with clamp bar adj cheekpiece & inlet for M5 DBM), that runs $395, which is well under the cost of most of the chassis that are available. If your 40X has the std wt bbl, and it's a good shooter, you'd save $400-$500 (or more) by running the OEM bbl.

I was pretty happy with that 1st converted 40X, so I sold the Stiller & used the $$$ to convert a CMP 40XB. After shooting them both in matches for a year or two, the V-22s came out, and I ordered a V-22 action, which I put a Krieger bbl on, and bedded into another Manners T4A. It runs so smooth, and shoots very, very well, so I'm happy. But every now-and-again, I'll take the 40XB & V-22 down to the range together, and even out to 300yds, there's very little to no difference in accuracy (why should there be? - the same guy did the bbl work, and they're both Kriegers).

But if I'd not had the two CMP 40Xs, and hadn't been in a position to pay for the V-22 build, and were in your position today, I'd probably be really interested in a new CZ 457 Varmint MTR. These are going to retail for well under a grand, and have a nice stock & a good quality bbl with a match chamber, and adjustable trigger. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for one to purchase myself - this 22RF stuff is dangerously addictive....

 

[usafa77]

Seems like your intended purpose is accuracy. Love everything about my Vudoo but mostly because it's my trainer.

 

[pmclaine]

Your hair cut sucks.

 

[MarkCZ]

If I were to go with a standard rimfire action, I think I'm leaning towards the CZ. I have heard the new 457s are on their way to the market. I'll be interested to see the reviews on them. It is nice having the option to spend $500 on the 455 then upgrade as the build goes on. What kind of accuracy are you seeing with either the 455 or 457? What advantages would you say the 457 has over the 455? Thanks.

I don't have a 457 yet. But my 455 Varmint will run 0.6moa out to 150 yds, with Eley Club. Take a close look at the Tikka T1X. So far mine is running 0.5 moa out to 150yds. see http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/range-report-for-t1x.3968853/ Both guns are stock, with just a trigger spring change.

Mark

 

[jbell]

But if I'd not had the two CMP 40Xs, and hadn't been in a position to pay for the V-22 build, and were in your position today, I'd probably be really interested in a new CZ 457 Varmint MTR. These are going to retail for well under a grand, and have a nice stock & a good quality bbl with a match chamber, and adjustable trigger. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for one to purchase myself - this 22RF stuff is dangerously addictive....

I agree with this, in addition to keeping a close eye on the T1X as they seem to be doing pretty good.

To add to my statement above: I have been fortunate enough to have owned about every high end 22lr repeater available in this country and a few that really are not. If you go over the $1000 - $1200 price point for just the rifle in anything other than a Vudoo you are wasting your money. I can completely justify a factory CZ 455 / 457, Tikka T1X, or similar, even a CZ with an aftermarket barrel and cool stock but that would be the very top end before you should look very strong at a Vudoo. Another angle is if you don't already own a rimfire suppressor take that out of the equation and put that $500-$750 toward the purchase of the rifle and get the Vudoo. IMO suppressors are cool, but they don't bring ANYTHING to the rimfire accuracy table and maybe take away from it slightly (basically money not very well spent).

If it sounds like I am being a Vudoo fanboy and am trying to talk you into a Vudoo, it is because I am (they are that good & nothing on the market today comes close). Believe me I have explored all the options and I am a very picky bitch.

Good luck with the search!

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

I’m not positive about this but doesn’t the 457 have a different footprint than the 455? If it does that would take a lot of after market parts out there that are currently available for the CZ455 off the table.

yes different foot prints between the 455 and the 457. but 457 has threaded bolt knob so you can change just that as long as you find one with the correct thread pitch. there is another thread on here about that. in terms of scope rails, all the major players are either developing or have developed a 20 or 30 moa rail for it already.

457 shares the same mag well so if you want to upgrade that, you can still use the 455 mag wells. bottom metal is now upgraded from the factory over 455 so i don't know if that even needs to be addressed

the biggest elephant in the room will be chassis and stocks, they will all need to be re-configured for the 457. you have to figure manners will drop one since they have the vpt model coming from the factory. i also stumbled across a pdf on MPA's site regarding lead times for products and they are listing a 457 chassis on that pdf but it is not listed on their site yet.

not sure about the other major chassis systems.

i'm waiting with baited breath for some details on T1x stocks / chassis that don't require modification.

 

[Eoddave27]

The stock/chassis selection was my concern. I’m looking at buying a CZ455 and the first thing I will do unless I gat a precision trainer is toss the factory stock. My guess is it will take awhile for all the companies to make new stocks for the change. Once they do get something released they will be on backorder everywhere for quite awhile. I’ll probably just keep shopping for a 455 for now. I have been lusting after that Tikka though .

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

The stock/chassis selection was my concern. I’m looking at buying a CZ455 and the first thing I will do unless I gat a precision trainer is toss the factory stock. My guess is it will take awhile for all the companies to make new stocks for the change. Once they do get something released they will be on backorder everywhere for quite awhile. I’ll probably just keep shopping for a 455 for now. I have been lusting after that Tikka though .

the cz's in the boyds stocks really aren't that bad out of the box. where you tend to see issues is in the synthetic stocks that flex.

but you are right, unless they've been working on them, chassis and stocks for the 457 probably won't hit the market until at least quarter 2

 

[A-Rob]

As an owner of a tricked out 455 with an outstanding prototype 2-stage trigger, chassis, etc. I say get the Tikka. From all I've seen posted, your chances of excellent accuracy, without having to rebarrel, etc. are above average. I would go that route if I had a do-over.

 

[StrayDog]

Another vote for the Vudoo, especially if you are looking for a trainer to mimick your .308.
Working the Vudoo mags feels really close to running an AICS-based center-fire system.
You will not miss tiny rimfire mags!

 

[BigRed308]

I think I have narrowed it to a vudoo or cz. But man this is a hard decision.

 

[skinnj1]

@BigRed308 Cz , tikka, vudoo- none are bad options but I would echo A-rob on consider a tikka if going the "cheaper than vudoo" route.

Is this a buy once/cry once purchase that is your only shot to get it right or will you have flexibility on aquiring other gear in the future?

 

[hlee]

You can get a fully built out, all the bells and whistles Kidd Supergrade 10/22 for $1500. That's what I did.

 

[Milemarker28]

Some cz porn for the OP...

 

[Hellbender]

When I was shooting pretty much full time (at least 100-200 rounds a day 24/7, I shot 50-100 rounds every morning and every evening) in the 2012 PRS season, I built a 40X (I converted to a repeater) to mimic my centerfire match rifles (same scope/chassis, etc.). I have a 400 yard range in my backyard.
It made more difference in my performance than anything else I did, except dry firing.
I couldn't have afforded to shoot a centerfire that much.

But even the small difference in shorter bolt throw of the 40x would mess with me, if I didn't dry fire a 100 times or so with my centerfire after each session with the .22.

A 10/22 will not mimic the feel/operation of your bolt match gun. In addition the slow lock time of a hammer fired trigger group, in addition to the slow barrel time of the .22 RF. will make the whole experience different.

 

[PAYDIRT]

I'd ten times rather have the Vudoo than my 455. My 455 is very temperamental, and a $500 Lilja is the only answer. My nephews Savage MK II will shoot as good as my CZ.

 

[BigRed308]

Thanks for the info so far guys. I also saw something about the VQ Summitt. The logic behind it is interesting. Really neat that it takes 10/22 accessories. The issue I see is it’s not similar to any sort of bolt action with its straight back pull. Otherwise I would’ve strongly considered one.

 

[Hellbender]

I believe the VQ Summit uses a 10/22 trigger group, so you would still have the slow lock time to contend with compared to a striker fired system.

 

[MarkCZ]

I believe the VQ Summit uses a 10/22 trigger group, so you would still have the slow lock time to contend with compared to a striker fired system.

The Kidd 2 stage trigger has the lock time of a bolt gun. They bite to buy, but they are the best 10-22 trigger made.
Mark

 

[BigRed308]

Hellbender,

could you please explain the slow lock time and its significance? Thanks.

 

[skinnj1]

Locktimes are typically measured in milliseconds, the slower the locktime the longer from the time a trigger is pulled to when a projectile can begin traveling in the barrel ie more follow through required and more opportunities to pull shot off intended impact location.

Mausers and ar-15's have slower locktime than a lot of bolt guns. Anschutz smallbore rifles have very fastloctktimes. Spring forces, firing pin travel and other factors play a part in loctime.

 

[Hellbender]

Hellbender,

could you please explain the slow lock time and its significance? Thanks.

I'm going to speak about centerfires as I have done the math on them and know what I'm about to say will be true ...(rimfires will even be worse as you also have longer barrel/bullet dwell time to fight).

The best AR triggers (Geissele, etc.) run about 8ms lock time vs. 2ms (or less) for a bolt gun.

On a centerfire, a bolt gun's bullet is 50-75 yards DOWN RANGE before the AR's ever LEAVE THE MUZZLE (triggers pulled at exact same time).

That means you have to hold an AR PERFECTLY STEADY for 4 TIMES LONGER after you pull the trigger.

So unless you are shooting totally free recoil off a bench, the bolt gun will ALWAYS win in the long run, everything else being equal.

This is why the AR's have never been popular for PRS matches, that's why everyone has trouble shooting groups that compare with a bolt gun (even though mechanical accuracy of the two systems may be the same). That's why David Tubb gave up on the AR's for National Matches....He could never whip the lock time issue.

MarkCZ....I respectfully disagree on the lock time statement you make, when comparing similar high quality guns (there may be some poor quality bolt gun with a slow lock time I am not aware of). But I do agree on the high quality of the Kidd triggers! Best made, no doubt.

The physics just don't work, a good bolt gun just drops a firing pin directly forward under spring pressure, period.

A semi (w/ hammer) has to swing a hammer through an arc, then it has to overcome the inertia of a firing pin (sometimes with a return spring to further slow things down) and move it forward to strike the primer.

If you take a Kidd triggered 10/22 and compare it to a good bolt gun, side by side, you can immediately feel the difference.

 

[jbell]

Played around last night and made a brass catcher...tired of picking brass between little cracks..,

Little prototype, next I’ll put a small box on the right side to hold the box of Ammo.
Knocked it over more than once...

Old scope ring and some plastic, holds about 60-80 shells

I'm going to speak about centerfires as I have done the math on them and know what I'm about to say will be true ...(rimfires will even be worse as you also have longer barrel/bullet dwell time to fight).

The best AR triggers (Geissele, etc.) run about 8ms lock time vs. 2ms (or less) for a bolt gun.

On a centerfire, a bolt gun's bullet is 50-75 yards DOWN RANGE before the AR's ever LEAVE THE MUZZLE (triggers pulled at exact same time).

That means you have to hold an AR PERFECTLY STEADY for 4 TIMES LONGER after you pull the trigger.

So unless you are shooting totally free recoil off a bench, the bolt gun will ALWAYS win in the long run, everything else being equal.

This is why the AR's have never been popular for PRS matches, that's why everyone has trouble shooting groups that compare with a bolt gun (even though mechanical accuracy of the two systems may be the same). That's why David Tubb gave up on the AR's for National Matches....He could never whip the lock time issue.

MarkCZ....I respectfully disagree on the lock time statement you make, when comparing similar high quality guns (there may be some poor quality bolt gun with a slow lock time I am not aware of). But I do agree on the high quality of the Kidd triggers! Best made, no doubt.

The physics just don't work, a good bolt gun just drops a firing pin directly forward under spring pressure, period.

A semi (w/ hammer) has to swing a hammer through an arc, then it has to overcome the inertia of a firing pin (sometimes with a return spring to further slow things down) and move it forward to strike the primer.

If you take a Kidd triggered 10/22 and compare it to a good bolt gun, side by side, you can immediately feel the difference.

Yup, spot on...

 

[straightshooter1]

Hellbender,

could you please explain the slow lock time and its significance? Thanks.

Good explanations above. I'll just put it in terms I best understand it . . .

Lock Time is the time it takes from when the sear lets go of hammer to when the hammer strikes firing pin . . . and as mentioned, it's measured in milliseconds.

So, as the muzzle will typically be in constant motion, one tries to pull the trigger (or have gun fire) as soon as one is dead on target. But within those milliseconds, the muzzle has moved since the sear let go of the hammer. The less time it takes to get the bullet free of the muzzle the more accurate one can be. So, this not only goes for Lock Time but even the mass of the firing pin, strength of the firing pin spring and even the length of the barrel all have an effect that way (e.g. shorter time in the barrel the more apt one it for hitting the POA, particularly at LONG distances).

PS: Semi-auto rifles will tend to have much slower lock times than bolt rifles

 

[Hellbender]

Good explanations above. I'll just put it in terms I best understand it . . .

Lock Time is the time it takes from when the sear lets go of hammer to when the hammer strikes firing pin . . . and as mentioned, it's measured in milliseconds.

It's actually the time from when the sear breaks until the primer is ignited.

So it's what you said PLUS the time it takes for the firing pin to move and strike the primer, and the time it takes for the primer cup to crush and ignite the primer compound.

Obviously, a striker fired gun does not have a hammer and it's strictly the movement of the firing pin/spring that counts (plus crushing primer cup/ignition).

Everything else in your post is correct, and probably a better explanation of "why" than I attempted.

 

[steve123]

But, and I'm not sure exactly what all the reasons are, I can shoot a target grade 10-22 with a nice aftermarket trigger, better - easier, "proportionately", than I can my AR in 6mmFatRat, off obstacles.

In NRL22 with my 10-22, I can effectively hit most of the targets off obstacles, enough to win a match.

For whatever reason, I can't do near as well with my AR in a tactical match off obstacles. It's true the steel sizes are a bit smaller proportionately in the centerfire matches. The offset though is my AR is a sub moa rifle and my 10-22 isn't.

 

[Snuby642]

What if?
There was this guy, I heard of that shot pistols and ar's the same way.
Starting slightly off center and and begin to press trigger while moving to center.

Not that I would ever resort to such blastfamy.

 

[BigRed308]

The idea of a CZ 455 VPT and a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 gen I sounds really good...

 

[skinnj1]

This is why the AR's have never been popular for PRS matches, that's why everyone has trouble shooting groups that compare with a bolt gun (even though mechanical accuracy of the two systems may be the same). That's why David Tubb gave up on the AR's for National Matches....He could never whip the lock time issue.

Hellbender , as I remember it, Tubb won Perry two years in a row with a 6.5-08 modified SR-25 then didn't win the 3rd year due to his SR-25's mechanical issues and that was the end of gas guns in competition for him and the beginning of the design of the Tubb/McMillan T2K.

Now he has publicly stated that lock time was the reason he picked a 700 for his NRA Shiloute Rifle (off-hand only shooting) while he selected a pre-64 Model 70 across the course (with a slower locktime even after adding his bolt parts) for wins in both sports, at the same time.

Since his dominance in NRA Highpower was eclipsed, the winner overall at Perry / Atterburry has been both with a boltguns and with "Spacegun" AR-15's. An AR-15's lock time certainly doesn't keep Carl Bernosky from standing on stage.....

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

The idea of a CZ 455 VPT and a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 gen I sounds really good...

go through the rimfire px. there may still be a couple available at good prices, then check for the viper in the optics px, don't pay retail if you don't have to. if all else fails i think mile high and euro optic both have close out sales going for vortex as well.

 

[BigRed308]

go through the rimfire px. there may still be a couple available at good prices, then check for the viper in the optics px, don't pay retail if you don't have to. if all else fails i think mile high and euro optic both have close out sales going for vortex as well.

Euro optic has the PST for 649. Even though its the first gen, I think it should be plenty for a 22 from 25yards out to 200/300 yards. Im think I will need a at least a 15moa base possibly the 30moa. Can anyone confirm? Or am I stretching the PST gen 1's internal adjustments too far by trying to take a 22lr out beyond 200? I have looked at some drop charts and seen that 200 yards with Cci Sv takes 26 moa and 300 takes 49 moa.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

get the 30moa base if you are stretching it out. don't skimp and have to buy a second time

someone more versed in the vortex line can probably speak better but i'm of the understanding you should be just fine with it

 

[BigRed308]

get the 30moa base if you are stretching it out. don't skimp and have to buy a second time

someone more versed in the vortex line can probably speak better but i'm of the understanding you should be just fine with it

does a 50 yard zero sound reasonable? I only worry because I believe the gen 1s only have 65moa of total elevation. 32.5moa of usable elevation. This makes me really wonder about taking a 22lr to 300 yards even with a 15 moa base. I think the PST is only going to get me to 200 yards

 

[Hellbender]

Hellbender , as I remember it, Tubb won Perry two years in a row with a 6.5-08 modified SR-25 then didn't win the 3rd year due to his SR-25's mechanical issues and that was the end of gas guns in competition for him and the beginning of the design of the Tubb/McMillan T2K.

Now he has publicly stated that lock time was the reason he picked a 700 for his NRA Shiloute Rifle (off-hand only shooting) while he selected a pre-64 Model 70 across the course (with a slower locktime even after adding his bolt parts) for wins in both sports, at the same time.

Since his dominance in NRA Highpower was eclipsed, the winner overall at Perry / Atterburry has been both with a boltguns and with "Spacegun" AR-15's. An AR-15's lock time certainly doesn't keep Carl Bernosky from standing on stage.....

Sorry, I was just repeating what David told me.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

does a 50 yard zero sound reasonable? I only worry because I believe the gen 1s only have 65moa of total elevation. 32.5moa of usable elevation. This makes me really wonder about taking a 22lr to 300 yards even with a 15 moa base. I think the PST is only going to get me to 200 yards

again not an expert on vortex OR moa for that matter but what it will boil down to is what ammo you are shooting and its MV. that will play into the dope being spit out by your ballistic calculator. if you are concerned, just take the mv listed on the box (which isn't perfect) and run it through your ballistic calculator. that will give you a ROUGH idea of how much moa you will need out past 200. then you can tweak from there

your zero is important but most guys who shoot rimfire prs style matches or shot out past 200 yards use a 50 yard zero. trust me with a 30 moa base you should be good to go. lots of good options for them out there