I almost bought an RTS2 but went with the larger window XL. Dot size options should be more widespread. I assume most users don't understand the benefits of larger dots so they just opt for 2 MOA, which is a rifle dot.
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I think I want a red dot on my new pistol.
- Thread starter SanPatHogger
- Start date
Most users don't even think. They fall for the idiotic trope of "smaller dots are more accurate" without thinking it through.
Let's do some basic math
- 10 moa covers 10 inches at 100 yards, 5 inches at 50 yards, 2.5 inches at 25 yards, and 1 inch at 10 yards. Yea I know IPHY not MOA whatever.
- A handgun that can group 2" at 25 yards (8 moa) from a rest is exceptional. 3" at 25 yards (12 moa) will make virtually any shot at any distance in USPSA.
- The head on a USPSA target is 6" x 6", you would have to be 60 yards away before the edge of a 10 moa dot is tangent to the edges of the box
- The upper A zone in a USPSA target is 4" wide by 3" tall, you'd have to be more than 30 yards away before a 10 moa dot is taller than the box.
- The calibration zone of a USPSA mini popper 8" in diameter, you'd have to be more than 80 yards away before a 10 moa dot is bigger.
- The calibration zone of a USPSA pepper popper is 12" in diameter, you'd have to be more than 120 yards away before a 10 moa dot is bigger.
At least for me, it seems faster to center a large dot on a USPSA target than it is a smaller dot.
On top of that, a dot that is 10 moa will (in theory) cover the expected shot dispersion area of a pistol that groups 2.5 inches at 25 yards. That means that as long as the edge of the dot is not near a no shoot target the chances of tagging it are near zero unless you shank it.
A 2 moa dot on a 12 moa pistol will likely tag a no shoot with the dot barely off the no shoot just from pure shot to shot dispersion.
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All of that is true. There is also a qualitative difference in the way the dot is seen and the way the diode emits light. A 10 MOA dot emits more light for the eye to see and it does so across more display space. Day light brightness is more of a concern with 2 MOA dots because they emit less light. Further, to make the smaller emitter bright enough, they become harsh from the intensity of the small emitter. There's a bunch of really good RDS that more or less suck because they are 2 MOA.
This is off topic but relates to your discussion of Dot size relating to group dispersion. The 32MOA ring on Holosun RDS correlates almost perfectly to 00 buck with an Imp Cylinder choke. An RDS on a shot gun with a 32 MOA ring and 2 MOA dot is an exceptional combination.
I forgot to mention that.
I shoot with glasses which correct pretty much all of my astigmatism. I perceive small dots (< 4 moa) as blooming and with rough edges as they get brighter. Dots 4 moa and larger keep their round shape and sharp, crisp edges at brightness settings that would turn a 2 moa dot into a starburst.
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So is Trijicon getting into gimmicks, or is there some point to these new features?
www.thearmorylife.com
Review: Trijicon’s New RMR HD - The Armory Life
When it comes to red dot optics, there are few names as respected in the tactical and civilian shooting communities as that of Trijicon. From the ACOG in use with the U.S. military to the RMR family of reflex shots topping off military, law enforcement and civilian handguns, this is a brand that...
www.thearmorylife.com
It sounds great... except the $850 price tag! Holy crap.So is Trijicon getting into gimmicks, or is there some point to these new features?
Review: Trijicon’s New RMR HD - The Armory Life
When it comes to red dot optics, there are few names as respected in the tactical and civilian shooting communities as that of Trijicon. From the ACOG in use with the U.S. military to the RMR family of reflex shots topping off military, law enforcement and civilian handguns, this is a brand that...
I like their gimmicks if it’s just gimmicks.So is Trijicon getting into gimmicks, or is there some point to these new features?
Review: Trijicon’s New RMR HD - The Armory Life
When it comes to red dot optics, there are few names as respected in the tactical and civilian shooting communities as that of Trijicon. From the ACOG in use with the U.S. military to the RMR family of reflex shots topping off military, law enforcement and civilian handguns, this is a brand that...
Top side battery is worth the buy.
Hope it has a better warranty than their standard 5 year warranty on their electronics (from date of manufacture not date of actual purchase just like SIG). Curious to know how much they charge to repair them past their 5 year warranty.
I just got back from a trip to Dallas. Hit Cabelas, Scheels and Texas gun Experience. Drooled at quite a few red dots. After looking through the cheap one I have, I want a big window. The Leupold Delta Point Pro is big. Trijicon SRO seems big, but it's a circle (does that make any difference?) I think the other Trijicons I saw were all really small. There was a big Holosun, I don't emember the model and a Sig Romeo3XL. And I think they were all available with a 6moa dot.
If your draw and presentation are a little sloppy then a bigger screen will show the dot being off, where as little screen will not show the dot because you run out of screen. Is my thinking correct?
Also, the more I practice, the less a small screen will hinder me and the less a big screen will help me. But bigger is still better.
And I still have not shot the cheap one yet.
If your draw and presentation are a little sloppy then a bigger screen will show the dot being off, where as little screen will not show the dot because you run out of screen. Is my thinking correct?
Also, the more I practice, the less a small screen will hinder me and the less a big screen will help me. But bigger is still better.
And I still have not shot the cheap one yet.
I love the eotech on a carbine. Anything close just put in the circle. Dot only gets used for longer shots.
Works fast for my brain. Everyone is different though.
The zero is cheap for a reason. It's a plastic lens that will scratch easily according to all the negative reviews.
Sig had the Romeo one pro on sale for $350 yesterday so I ordered one. Mostly because my x-5 legion is already cut for the Delta-point/one pro mounting layout (which is technically the shield RMS).
I went with 6moa because I did the math and it's still tiny at pistol distance. It just sounds large too those of us used to using a .02 mil dot in the center of our scopes.
If you're having the slide milled, buy whatever, and have it cut. Just don't forget which mounting template it uses so you can switch/replace it without drama in the future.
Good reference material here on mounts.
Footprints/Mounting Standards on Red Dot Sights - Optics Trade Blog
In this article, the most common footprints/mounting standards used on red dot sights are listed. Each standard is described and an image of it is added.
www.optics-trade.eu
It's kinda hard to find out when they don't break anywhere near as much as everything else.
I paid $575 for my first pistol optic, the RMR RM07. So, that's not bad, actually. Will it be offered with a green LED option?
That said, the value proposition of the Holosuns is hard to beat.
I have no idea if they'll offer green. Personally I don't care. I've used green dots before and saw no compelling advantage over red meaning I could use either just fine.
Holosun reticles are a total no go for me. Their other features are superficial at best in that they don't offer a meaningful performance advantage over Trijicon.
The RMR HD is a win with an even better light sensor, a larger window, and a top replaceable battery.So is Trijicon getting into gimmicks, or is there some point to these new features?
Review: Trijicon’s New RMR HD - The Armory Life
When it comes to red dot optics, there are few names as respected in the tactical and civilian shooting communities as that of Trijicon. From the ACOG in use with the U.S. military to the RMR family of reflex shots topping off military, law enforcement and civilian handguns, this is a brand that...
It's a fail with its stupidly small dot sizes. Why did they not offer the 6.5 moa dot of the RMR is beyond me.
Pistol dots need to be way bigger than what internet idiots think they should.
It's the only way to get bigger lens.
I've concealed a G17 with an SRO with zero problems AIWB. The bulk of the optic sits right at the belt line.
It's not as big of an issue to conceal a larger optic as some make it out to be.
Here's what a 10 moa dot looks like on a 1/3 scale uspsa at about 8 yards, so this would be a 24 - 25 yd shot IRL. It's faster for my eye to center that on the lower A zone or head box than a much smaller dot.
I should have looked before I spoke there's not a significant difference...I am going to have to take a look at the HD.
Thanks for the picture.
Just curious what you shoot - what gun is that SRO mounted upon?
The pistol is a CZ Shadow 2. The sight is a C-More RTS2.
I have two SROs and one of them is what used to be on that gun. But the SRO's biggest dot is 5 moa and I wanted to try something much larger.
Also, a quick question.
If a larger dot is faster, then why isn't the RMR HD circle even faster, especially for close engagements?
55 MOA is roughly 13 inches at 25 yards, and 5.5 inches at 10 yards. If I have an attacker at typical personal gunfight engagement distances, well within 10 yards, would the circle not be faster? At seven yards the circle is only three inches. At three yards about an inch and a half.
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. I have almost zero experience with red dots. I have lots of experience with standard sights and even pointing using sights at real live persons, but I was trained way back, decades ago, and the training was very different, aim precisely, focus on the front sight, &c. I am going to move into red dots eventually, but I do not want to waste money. I am trying to do my research through others' experiences, just as I did when choosing a rifle and optic (ended up building my own based on what I read here on Sniper's Hide, and that is what I now recommend to most others seeking advice, get what you want the first time around).
If a larger dot is faster, then why isn't the RMR HD circle even faster, especially for close engagements?
55 MOA is roughly 13 inches at 25 yards, and 5.5 inches at 10 yards. If I have an attacker at typical personal gunfight engagement distances, well within 10 yards, would the circle not be faster? At seven yards the circle is only three inches. At three yards about an inch and a half.
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. I have almost zero experience with red dots. I have lots of experience with standard sights and even pointing using sights at real live persons, but I was trained way back, decades ago, and the training was very different, aim precisely, focus on the front sight, &c. I am going to move into red dots eventually, but I do not want to waste money. I am trying to do my research through others' experiences, just as I did when choosing a rifle and optic (ended up building my own based on what I read here on Sniper's Hide, and that is what I now recommend to most others seeking advice, get what you want the first time around).
It may be for some people. Not for me for reasons I don't fully understand.
2 years ago i bought a Holosun 507C to try that out. It's the one where you can shift between a 2 moa dot, a 32 moa circle, or both. I tried all 3 combinations was never as fast or accurate with any of them as I was with a 5 or 6 moa dot which was the biggest I had at the time.
You have to remember that we don't focus on the dot. We focus on the target and the dot is just there in our field of view.
This is me shooting a classifier with that 10 moa dot. The video shows the targets before being scored. You can see that a big dot is zero handicap to making tight shots at speed as shown on the first target that the video comes up to. BTW every one of those 12 shots was aimed. The shooting cadence changes in response to me needing to get just enough visual confirmation to get an acceptable (not necessarily perfect) sight picture.
At 12 seconds there is a round in the air, and it looks like you catch it, lol!
Definitely a matter of personal preference. In the end, I don't think green vs red offers any measurable difference in performance for me. My RMR is red, of course. But my Holosuns are green. One is a 2-MOA dot. The other is the 10-MOA chevron. I really like the chevron. And I seem to prefer green. Just personal preference.
I think there is a point of diminishing returns. The circle isn't really an aiming point, its so large it acts more like a smaller frame of the optic. I think for most people there is a sweet spot between 3-12moa where the dot is fine enough to not cloud your vision or fuck with your brain, and big enough to be utilized properly without hesitation or "thinking".
I think the big 30-50 moa rings are better used on things like rifles or shotguns, and I personally hate them on pistols. Then again, I'm in the minority and I much prefer my 1 moa SRO to anything I've used so far (2.5, 3.5, 5moa).
I really like the rounded hood of the SRO. IT seems to work well with my eyes and it feels more natural to me. The oblong hoods of the Sig XL and Delta Point Pro can also feel like that too. I wouldn't be buying the Holosun Comp until there's more reveiws on it...its a new product and I've seen some issues already(battery cover, lens break).
Generally your statements are true, but the bigger and circular window of the SRO seems to work really well for me vs my RMR. Meaning my grip and presenation are on point, but due to whatever unknown reason, my draws with the SRO tend to be more "perfect" vs RMR...all things being equal.
That being said, I practice enough to where its difficult to get the RMR to not have the dot in the center portion. Quality Practice trumps any piece of equipment. Equipment and gun/optic preference are SUPPLEMENTS to quality training. Meaning they help you marginally, or mildly compared to the massive improvement you'll see via proper dry fire(4-7x a week) and live fire(1-8x a month) training.
You should go to a USPSA match sometime. Go watch a top level GM run a stage lol
I agree.... the optic is simply not an issue AT ALL when it comes to concealment, IMO.
A larger dot isn't faster. Dots aren't faster 10 yards and in either. If you don't take the time necessary to become proficient with an RDS it will be a detriment, not a benefit. Red dots are really good training aids for iron sights, if nothing else. I don't carry a pistol with an RDS despite competing with an open gun and shooting 15k+ rounds a year. FWIW
It's the unload and show clear. I take the mag out first then slap the slide back to eject the last cartridge. I catch it then open the slide one more time for the ro to see. Last I let the slide go fwd and press the trigger on an empty chamber.
It's how you make a weapon safe in uspsa.
They absolutely are faster to make aimed shots inside 10 yards because there is less for your eyes to do.
Exploiting that advantage does take skill in other areas of pistolcraft.
I have a RMR that I've owned for about 7-8 years (don't have the original receipt) which went to Trijicon last year to fix a problem with flickering during recoil. They fixed it for free in about two weeks.
Buddy dropped his Staccato with SRO off the top of his truck and it landed right on the top of the optic and cracked the glass.
Same thing. Was a little surprised by that one.
I shot the cheap dot Saturday night. I decided I really like the red dot. It started out almost zeroed, adjusted and shot about 40 rounds of draw and shoot a single shot on the timer. After we were warmed up and started feeling good we switched to fresh targets and I shot a Bill drill. Way slower than I thought I would be and only got 5 in the A zone. On the second try at a Bill drill, something happened... After the second shot I did not see a red dot anymore and something smacked me in my mouth. It was the glass flying out. I'm slightly disappointed, but not suprised at all. I'll see if I can get it replaced or returned, it has a one year warranty.
But now that I have shot one, I now know for sure what I want.
I want a big window and 5+ moa dot. A green dot would be nice because we hunt with red lights and I like the green dot on the AR9 and AR15 with the red light.
My wife also informed me that I can get whatever I want... Soooo...
Trijicon SRO 5moa red dot. At first I thought the round body was ugly, but it seems to be one of the toughest out there and almost the standard by which others are compared and judged. $540ish
SIG Romeo3XL 6moa red dot. I like the big glass. $700
Leupold Delta Point Pro 6moa red dot. I like that it has a a built in guard on it. Seems slightly more rugged? $450
2 problems.... First, none are available with a green dot. Maybe not that big of a deal.
Second, all 3 each have a different footprint. To put the DPP on an RMR slide I need an adapter plate. $50, no big deal, but then the sight sits higher. I think I want it low. I do not even see an adapter to put a Romeo3xl on an RMR slide.
Seems like the SRO is the easy and smart way to get a rugged 5moa dot.
But now that I have shot one, I now know for sure what I want.
I want a big window and 5+ moa dot. A green dot would be nice because we hunt with red lights and I like the green dot on the AR9 and AR15 with the red light.
My wife also informed me that I can get whatever I want... Soooo...
Trijicon SRO 5moa red dot. At first I thought the round body was ugly, but it seems to be one of the toughest out there and almost the standard by which others are compared and judged. $540ish
SIG Romeo3XL 6moa red dot. I like the big glass. $700
Leupold Delta Point Pro 6moa red dot. I like that it has a a built in guard on it. Seems slightly more rugged? $450
2 problems.... First, none are available with a green dot. Maybe not that big of a deal.
Second, all 3 each have a different footprint. To put the DPP on an RMR slide I need an adapter plate. $50, no big deal, but then the sight sits higher. I think I want it low. I do not even see an adapter to put a Romeo3xl on an RMR slide.
Seems like the SRO is the easy and smart way to get a rugged 5moa dot.
Ya, not surprising lol. Glad you're jumping into the nicer optics.
IF you already have RMR footpring, just go that route.
RMR - toughest micro red dot alive. Tried and true reputation. Does two things well: 1.) Super Robust 2.) Auto brightness is second to none.
SRO - Better in every possible way, EXCEPT how robust it is. BUT... that doesn't mean it isn't strong enough to handle everything besides combat lol. I have 2, one of which is 3-4yrs old, has been on 4 pistols, over 15k rounds, and is carried daily for the past 1yr and did monthly competition and weekly practive for 2yrrs before that. It's solid as ever.
There's also no shortage of stories that guys dropped it perfectly on its hood from 8ft high and Trijicon replaced the lens for free.
My vote is SRO. The 5moa is nice. OR be weird like me and go 1moa lol.
Buy used
Irrelevant
This is why I tell people to buy a pistol that comes setup for adapter plates or a multi optic mounting system and why I won't buy pistols without them any more.
Since you're stuck with the Trijicon footprint, your choices are anything Trijicon or three Holosun models (407C, 507C, 508T).
Get a Trijicon. The SRO 5 moa would be my choice.
I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud.
Of course, you can't go wrong with Trijicon when it comes to quality and build. They are the "gold standard." But no green reticles. So it comes down to whether red is OK with you and spending the extra dough. My first pistol optic was the RM07. Still have it. Good stuff.
So far, my experience with Holosun has been excellent. I've got 2 of those. And I'll be buying more.
The Holosun EPS comes in six MOA and green. Technically it isn't an RMR footprint but comes with the necessary hardware to mount to RMR.
I've got the holosun eps carry green mrs. Narrower body but I like it. Have it on my Sig 322 22lr pistol. First optics cut gun I have and wanted to try it out. It's one of my guns that I can get my wife to shoot. Now it has me wanting to get a Walther pdp pro SD 4" with a holosun eps green mrs or eps green 6.
The green do is relevant to me because I'd like to shoot pigs with it and we use red lights. Green dot shows up when the back ground is lit up red.
But mostly it will be shot at a few level 1 USPSA matches.
I am not stuck with the RMR footprint as I have not bought the slide yet. But the slide I like is cut for the RMR.
It just seems like I keep coming back to the SRO in my head for some reason.
We were both laughing pretty hard.I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud.
Of course, you can't go wrong with Trijicon when it comes to quality and build. They are the "gold standard." But no green reticles. So it comes down to whether red is OK with you and spending the extra dough. My first pistol optic was the RM07. Still have it. Good stuff.
So far, my experience with Holosun has been excellent. I've got 2 of those. And I'll be buying more.
A writeup of optic footprints.
www.opticsplanet.com
A Guide to the Most Common Red Dot Footprints
A Guide to the Most Common Red Dot Footprints
www.opticsplanet.com
All this place needs is a thread about me wanting night vision, and everybody saying to spend a bazilion dollars, then I buy some cheap shit on Amazon and it fucking electrocutes me or some shit and then I spend a bazilion dollars anyway.... Nope, I'll just deal with having a red dot.
When you decide to get into nightvision just go to Amazon there will be plenty of cheap shit you can R&D for our entertainment.
