IMO, best bang for your buck "off the shelf - budget" bench precision 5.56 / 7.62 rifles

[elfster1234]

Let the flaming begin! Ready, steady, GO! ; )

Both with 20" SS bull barrels (perfect barrel length for a bench AR IMO), actually like the standard A2 stock for rear owl ear sand bag (cheap, simple, and works wonders for precision shooting)..... Slap a 16x plus scope, nice 1pc mount like a larue LT-158 with 10moa cant, and lower budget 6-9" harris swivel style bipod and I'd bet money you're shooting sub-moa in no time flat. If all you're doing is target shooting, then I'd lean towards the 5.56 as it is dirt cheap to shoot / reload for, and IMO I think the 5.56 might have an small edge on accuracy over the 7.62 IF shooting at/under 300yards.

Rock River LAR-15 Varmint A4 5.56mm 223 With Options 20" BBL

Rock River LAR-8 Varmint 308 20" BBL




$1050 bucks and will take pmags!!! be done with it: Rock River 20 in Varmint 223 ar15 ar 15 5.56 : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

 

[elfster1234]

you know, ive been eyeballin that predator also... nice looking rifle and good idea.... im still a fan of the bull barrel and the standard A2 stock IF used for a bench AR for only target shooting. My local big box store has loads of the funky LAR8 mags for $30 each.... not too bad I guess.. yes, no pmag, but I could work with it I think. Good ideas.

I'll bet you my beer money if you swap that RRA 20 varmint for a RRA 20 inch predator pursuit you will be a happier camper. You'll have a rifle that gives up nothing to the varmint and is a full pound lighter. Other than that I say you're spot on with the 5.56!
If the RRA LAR 8 still feeds from surplus LAR mags I'll have to pass. All mags are hard to find but in a normal situation pmags are easier to find than LAR mags. If the RRA LAR8 can feed from an easier to find mag like the LR308 from DPMS then I'm with 'ya on this one too. As much as I like the LR308 I think the RRA LAR8 is a better rifle.

 

[Skyyr]

For the money? I'm primarily concerned with reliability, so if I had to choose a single platform with regards to precision (while keeping the aforementioned reliability factor), it'd have to be the KAC SR-15 for 5.56. In 7.62, either the LMT MWS or the KAC SR-25.

You can build many guns cheaper, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that runs as well in adverse conditions, is built as well, and is as accurate as the rifles mentioned above.

 

[elfster1234]

Budget... Off the shelf... As in the title.. imo would get you sub moa for under $1100 for the base rifle if you wanted off the shelf right now,,, maybe even under $1k in a few months. Rock rivers are really solid performers.

Not everyone has over 3k to burn on a rifle nor want to build a rifle. All good points tho.thanks.

For the money? I'm primarily concerned with reliability, so if I had to choose a single platform with regards to precision (while keeping the aforementioned reliability factor), it'd have to be the KAC SR-15 for 5.56. In 7.62, either the LMT MWS or the KAC SR-25.

You can build many guns cheaper, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that runs as well in adverse conditions, is built as well, and is as accurate as the rifles mentioned above.

 

[Dynamic Response]

I have a Older Rock River and it runs great. It shoots 1/2moa all day. For the money they are great rifles and hard to beat. If you can spend 1600 I would get the LMT MRP. As far as 7.62 goes LMT MWS is one of the cheapest options and in my opinion the best 7.62 rifle you can buy.

There are a lot of great AR15s out there. Daniel defense, BCM, LMT, KAC, Larue etc. so decide which options you want and how much $$ you want to spend and pick one that fits the bill.

 

[bohica17]

Designated Marksman Rifle You can thank me later lol. Got the cqb model with 18" barrel and loveeeeeeeeeeeeeee it.

 

[ORD]

Rock River builds rifles of very reasonable quality that are certainly capable of great accuracy out of the box (at least their 5.56/.223 rifles anyway).

I have owned a few of their 5.56/.223 ARs (and still own a 20" Varmint A4) that are/were all good shooters. My Varmint has been sub-MOA since the day I got it and mounted an old Burris 6-24x on it (the condition it is still in to this day).

HOWEVER...I take issue with the recommendation of the LAR-8 series of rifles as I have seen more than a few that were trainwrecks from the get-go in many respects. Sub-par fit/finish, various FTFeed/FTE issues, multiple issues relating to magazines fitting/functioning properly (yes...even the funky polymer RRA mags that were "supposed" to fix mag compatibility issues), accuracy woes (one was barely able to keep 3MOA even with match ammo) and an even more proprietary set of specs/parts than other mfgs/.308 AR patterns making sourcing of aftermarket parts/accessories (much less replacement parts) a PITA to put it mildly. Even assuming that you were going to buy one, keep it bone stock aside from optics/mount/rings and a bipod, I would still be hesitant to recommend one based on my experiences with the 6-7 rifles I have laid hands on myself. I realize that isn't nearly a representative sample given the numbers RRA has produced, but it certainly soured my taste for them enough that I wouldn't go that route even for a "budget-minded" rifle.

 

[lte82]

Ill the dpms LR platform into the mix:

Best 5 shot group during my load work up at 100 yards on the 260 rem. .5 moa give or take.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Yesterday's 10 shot group at 200 yards using hand loads. I wanted to do 5x 5 shot groups to get an average but didn't have enough ammo left after I let someone else plink with it. I thought it was .52 moa, but after doing the math right it was actually .62.

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/20130527131658.jpg

Below is the best 10 shot group from my dpms lr308 during a 200 yard load work up yesterday. Its a .75 moa group, math was wrong on the paper. The group just above and left is .9x moa, and .5gr heavier load wise... I'm sticking with the lighter load.

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/20130527132320.jpg

 

[garandman]

DPMS LR-308. Ain't sayin' its "the best." Am sayin' "You won't be disappointed."

 

[Tact999]

So yeah ......go cheap if you only intend to take it out of the safe or bag once in a great while for target practice....like a hobbyist. People serious about training and owning a battle rifle don't even look that route. Reliability and durability .....yes you have to pay a little more.... But when you or someone else's life is dependent upon it it is worth it.


Tapatalk2

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

So yeah ......go cheap if you only intend to take it out of the safe or bag once in a great while for target practice....like a hobbyist. People serious about training and owning a battle rifle don't even look that route. Reliability and durability .....yes you have to pay a little more.... But when you or someone else's life is dependent upon it it is worth it.


Tapatalk2

Attending courses and being a "battle rifle" owner is in the hobby category, as well. Useful hobbies, yes, and may come in handy one day (odds are against this), but still a hobby.

I swear I need to start a magazine.... "Tactical Life - For those that live in Fallujah, Iowa".

 

[Tact999]

I call it a job....not a hobby.


Tapatalk2

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

I call it a job....not a hobby.


Tapatalk2

That's fine, and many of us had similar jobs where our weapon was the tool of our trade, but to call everyone that doesn't feel the need to own a KAC, LaRue, or Daniel Defense a paper punching hobbyist is a little foolish.

Those weapons are mechanical as well, and all mechanical devices fail. I know that the build quality is different, but after you verify dependability of a weapon system, your average cop, or other civilian, is not going to shoot a weapon to failure out of necessity (such as a firefight against a superior force, etc.)

It is your money, and when given a choice, I will always buy from a premium manufacturer, but there is a reason they are not the only game in town. Looking down at someone for owning a DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, or whatever, because they may find themselves on a two way range with Hadji on the mean streets of San Angelo just doesn't make sense.

 

[wfjames22]

I swear I need to start a magazine.... "Tactical Life - For those that live in Fallujah, Iowa".

Hahahahahahahaha...another one for the sig line.

 

[samnev]

You can't go wrong with Rock River. Both of mine shoot as well as my 2 Noveske N4's.

 

[elfster1234]

Not only do I own a LMT MWS, but I have owned 3 rock rivers (currently own 2), non of them have ever failed to fire, feed, and eject. They have all been top notch shooters and quality is tip top. To say you own a rock river = a paper punching hobbyist is crazy. Of all the AR's I've ever owned, my rock river arms EOP varmint SS bull barrel rifle is hands down the most accurate and that is saying a lot from a guy that owns, fires, and loves LMT rifles.

That's fine, and many of us had similar jobs where our weapon was the tool of our trade, but to call everyone that doesn't feel the need to own a KAC, LaRue, or Daniel Defense a paper punching hobbyist is a little foolish.

Those weapons are mechanical as well, and all mechanical devices fail. I know that the build quality is different, but after you verify dependability of a weapon system, your average cop, or other civilian, is not going to shoot a weapon to failure out of necessity (such as a firefight against a superior force, etc.)

It is your money, and when given a choice, I will always buy from a premium manufacturer, but there is a reason they are not the only game in town. Looking down at someone for owning a DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, or whatever, because they may find themselves on a two way range with Hadji on the mean streets of San Angelo just doesn't make sense.

 

[elfster1234]

bro! this just listed for one hell of a deal in 5.56 20" predator pursuit with free shipping @ $1070.00. Not too darn bad.

Rock River Predator Pursuit Rifle 223 Heavy Match 20" BBL


wwe

I'll bet you my beer money if you swap that RRA 20 varmint for a RRA 20 inch predator pursuit you will be a happier camper. You'll have a rifle that gives up nothing to the varmint and is a full pound lighter. Other than that I say you're spot on with the 5.56!
If the RRA LAR 8 still feeds from surplus LAR mags I'll have to pass. All mags are hard to find but in a normal situation pmags are easier to find than LAR mags. If the RRA LAR8 can feed from an easier to find mag like the LR308 from DPMS then I'm with 'ya on this one too. As much as I like the LR308 I think the RRA LAR8 is a better rifle.

 

[LtDan]

Not only do I own a LMT MWS, but I have owned 3 rock rivers (currently own 2), non of them have ever failed to fire, feed, and eject. They have all been top notch shooters and quality is tip top. To say you own a rock river = a paper punching hobbyist is crazy. Of all the AR's I've ever owned, my rock river arms EOP varmint SS bull barrel rifle is hands down the most accurate and that is saying a lot from a guy that owns, fires, and loves LMT rifles.

Agreed. I have a Colt AR-15A3, SCAR 16S, Sig SG551-2 SWAT (department issued), RRA LAR 15-LE in the rack in my office. The RRA is my go-to for patrol duty and when it is "run out the door" time at work. It has proven utterly reliable and accurate as hell. I carry a Wilson Combat CQB as a duty weapon, I do appreciate expensive gear, but cost be damned, my LAR-15 and LAR-8's have proven themselves worthy of my trust.

We have close to a dozen RRA's being carried as patrol rifles, not one has been sent back or repaired yet.

 

[Tact999]

IMO, best bang for your buck "off the shelf - budget" bench precision 5.56 / ...

I wouldn't own any of those either......we'll just agree to disagree. We have all had different experiences....different strokes for different folks that is all. I guess get what you like and can afford, buy ammo, and train regularly.....pretty simple I guess. I'm out..


Tapatalk2

 

[elfster1234]

I totally appreciate your input. That is what this forum is all about. Discussion and input. Not to worry, I will not get all fd on your ass JK.

Thanks for your input.

I wouldn't own any of those either......we'll just agree to disagree. We have all had different experiences....different strokes for different folks that is all. I guess get what you like and can afford, buy ammo, and train regularly.....pretty simple I guess. I'm out..


Tapatalk2

 

[LtDan]

I wouldn't own any of those either......we'll just agree to disagree. We have all had different experiences....different strokes for different folks that is all. I guess get what you like and can afford, buy ammo, and train regularly.....pretty simple I guess. I'm out..


Tapatalk2

Hell, don't go yet! Out of curiosity, if Colt's, Sig's and SCAR's don't cut it what would you carry? The Colt and SCAR have also proven themselves as reliable, but just not as accurate.

I'll clarify, carry for patrol work. Not subject to the conditions seen by military weapons, but my life and the lives of others may well depend on it.

 

[Delta4-3]

For the money? I'm primarily concerned with reliability, so if I had to choose a single platform with regards to precision (while keeping the aforementioned reliability factor), it'd have to be the KAC SR-15 for 5.56. In 7.62, either the LMT MWS or the KAC SR-25.

You can build many guns cheaper, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that runs as well in adverse conditions, is built as well, and is as accurate as the rifles mentioned above.

Here is my problem with KAC, and I'm not trying to be abrasive, as your opinion is just as good or probably better than mine...

My team had 2 M110's, an M24' and an M107. I feel like you are paying for the name with KAC. Both m110's were 4 MOA guns. Though I did go to SOTIC In 06 before it was named such, I'm not a terrific shot. Under average, actually, when compared to some buddies in the unit, but I can generally shoot to a rifles capabilities when it's locked up tight on a bench. The M24 shot just under an inch once it was rebarreled, and none of the other guys could get the 110's to do any better, otherwise, I would chalk it up to my shooting. They were quite reliable but not any more so than any other quality gas gun I have used many of which are cheaper. To boot, the suppressor is very loud compared to other industry standard .30 cans, and seemed pretty heavy. I chose the m-24. The m110 was very effective though, since we were not what I would define as snipers. Our role was much more along the lines of a SDM, and providing overwatch for the clearing of Sadr City, where most shots were inside 300m.
We even tried commercial match ammo and some hand loads, and still didn't get much better accuracy.
Once again, not knocking your opinion, just humbly tossing my two cents into the mix. I don't feel like you can get exactly what you want for a low price without putting your own gun together (strictly talking gas 7.62 guns here).

 

[Skyyr]

Hell, don't go yet! Out of curiosity, if Colt's, Sig's and SCAR's don't cut it what would you carry? The Colt and SCAR have also proven themselves as reliable, but just not as accurate.

I'll clarify, carry for patrol work. Not subject to the conditions seen by military weapons, but my life and the lives of others may well depend on it.

That's the problem, you can't get "dead accurate" and "combat-grade dead reliable" within the price-point we're talking in this thread. Colt is about the cheapest you can go if you want a reliable (as in being able to be used in adverse combat conditions) rifle. Colt's and SCAR's also aren't known for being accurate (not that they're not, that's just not their selling point).

I'm not Becker999, but if Colt and FN were off the table, I'd look at a KAC, LMT, Centurion Arms, Noveske, or BCM. But then again, you're looking at a $2.5-4.5k price point, sans optics.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Hell, don't go yet! Out of curiosity, if Colt's, Sig's and SCAR's don't cut it what would you carry? The Colt and SCAR have also proven themselves as reliable, but just not as accurate.

I'll clarify, carry for patrol work. Not subject to the conditions seen by military weapons, but my life and the lives of others may well depend on it.

Since when has a Colt M16 or M4...now FNs I believe, not been accurate?

 

[Skyyr]

Here is my problem with KAC, and I'm not trying to be abrasive, as your opinion is just as good or probably better than mine...

My team had 2 M110's, an M24' and an M107. I feel like you are paying for the name with KAC. Both m110's were 4 MOA guns. Though I did go to SOTIC In 06 before it was named such, I'm not a terrific shot. Under average, actually, when compared to some buddies in the unit, but I can generally shoot to a rifles capabilities when it's locked up tight on a bench. The M24 shot just under an inch once it was rebarreled, and none of the other guys could get the 110's to do any better, otherwise, I would chalk it up to my shooting. They were quite reliable but not any more so than any other quality gas gun I have used many of which are cheaper. To boot, the suppressor is very loud compared to other industry standard .30 cans, and seemed pretty heavy. I chose the m-24. The m110 was very effective though, since we were not what I would define as snipers. Our role was much more along the lines of a SDM, and providing overwatch for the clearing of Sadr City, where most shots were inside 300m.
We even tried commercial match ammo and some hand loads, and still didn't get much better accuracy.
Once again, not knocking your opinion, just humbly tossing my two cents into the mix. I don't feel like you can get exactly what you want for a low price without putting your own gun together (strictly talking gas 7.62 guns here).

No problem - everyone has had different experiences and opinions. If we didn't, this would be a boring world =)

I've seen some setups that simply can't hold a consistent group for no apparent reason. I don't for a second doubt that you had accuracy issues with the M110, but that isn't the norm for them.

That said, the military's loosest requirements for small arms is ~3 MOA (usually no less than that), as that's the minimum accuracy required to hit center of mass out to 300M. If that was the standard for them, they would only be reliable for anti-personnel roles out to 250M, give or take. The M110 is intended to be able to serve in a precision capacity. The accuracy requirements for the M110, according to MIL-PRF-32316, are a mean group deviation no greater than "1.1 inches at 300 yards" (or 1/3 MOA, roughly). Obviously, if the M110 failed to meet the 1/3 MOA accuracy requirement, it would have not won the contract.

Gas guns ARE less forgiving than bolt guns are and they have more factors that can affect accuracy.

I do agree that building your gun is most cost effective, especially if you're building a benchrest rifle in 7.62mm (and even 5.56mm for that matter).

Just my .02

 

[Skyyr]

Since when has a Colt M16 or M4...now FNs I believe, not been accurate?

"Accurate" is a loose term when talking about AR's. A rack-grade M16 or M4 can have up to a 3 MOA pattern and still be considered "accurate" for combat purposes (1 MOA and better AR's are not common, regardless of what you may have read on the interwebs - for every 1MOA rifle, there's 20 3MOA rifles). You have to realize that battle rifles and assault rifles (and their semi-auto counterparts) are "center of mass"-accurate weapons first and foremost, not precision weapons. Most AR-15's and AR-10's will have a 2-3 MOA group size, Colt's included (especially with mil-surp ammo).

Precision, mil-spec AR's (like the LMT MWS) that are intended to be used in a precision role have much tighter weapon tolerances (where applicable) that contribute to accuracy while maintaining a combat-capable rifle. This is why there's such a big price increase going from a mil-spec rack-grade AR to a mil-spec precision one.

 

[elfster1234]

I just want to make sure we are not getting off topic here also... just as a reminder in the OP title... budget, precision, and off-the-self are the key words here.

although,,,, I have absolutely no problems spending over 2.5k on a rifle if I know it can shoot, but why do that if I can get amazing performance out of a RRA bull barrel varmint that only cost around 1100.... was under 1k about 7months ago....

I hate to even bring this up and I know some people think I'm completely full of BS especially when it comes to the two different 30round / 6group shootouts I do, but I don't think it is coincidence that the 5.56 bull barrel rifles regardless of brand (especially when most are RRA's and DPMS) is solid evidence that you DO NOT need to spend stupid amounts of money for really good sub-moa accuracy / reliability especially if used for target practice which is the usual senerio for most of here (come on, there is not war going on in Wisconsin right now last time I checked),,, and most people are just screwing around at the target range,,,, IMO. Lets just keep in mind here that we are talking about budget / off-the-shelf as listed in the OP title. Some people like my friend with children that really wants to get into this sport can not afford 2.5k to 3k rifles and either don't know jack about building rifles nor have the time to.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...00yard-semi-auto-6group-30round-shootout.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0yard-semi-auto-6groups-30round-shootout.html


I would say this isn't too darn bad for a 1k rifle that was just shot about 1 week ago and there are others doing much better than me with RRA varmints and DPMS bull barrels. This is just not coincidence in two completely separate shooutout forums and my own personal experience dealing with these RRA varmint rifles and much more expensive MOA shooters. Yes, shooter skill has a LOT to do with this, BUT then again.... I've always said it is 40%rifle, 40% shooter, and 20%ammo development. You can talk all of the BS you want, but you can't have one without the other and I think my %#'s above are pretty darn spot on in my experience. Having a rifle that gives you a solid 40% surely helps you get sub-moa if that is your game as listed in the OP title,,,, precision:

 

[LtDan]

Since when has a Colt M16 or M4...now FNs I believe, not been accurate?

The are accurate. But not AS accurate as the RRA. Three rifles, all reliable, the most accurate gets the nod for my purposes.

 

[s002wjh]

well you want mil-spec ar? aimsuplus usually sell DD upper for 700, then get a decent lower from rainerarm or other place.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

"Accurate" is a loose term when talking about AR's. A rack-grade M16 or M4 can have up to a 3 MOA pattern and still be considered "accurate" for combat purposes (1 MOA and better AR's are not common, regardless of what you may have read on the interwebs - for every 1MOA rifle, there's 20 3MOA rifles). You have to realize that battle rifles and assault rifles (and their semi-auto counterparts) are "center of mass"-accurate weapons first and foremost, not precision weapons. Most AR-15's and AR-10's will have a 2-3 MOA group size, Colt's included (especially with mil-surp ammo).

Precision, mil-spec AR's (like the LMT MWS) that are intended to be used in a precision role have much tighter weapon tolerances (where applicable) that contribute to accuracy while maintaining a combat-capable rifle. This is why there's such a big price increase going from a mil-spec rack-grade AR to a mil-spec precision one.

Well I'm in the military and shoot them...so I don't just read the internet. Hell last training I shot reactive targets out to 500m with iron sights. So you can't tell me they ain't accurate.

 

[Skyyr]

Well I'm in the military and shoot them...so I don't just read the internet. Hell last training I shot reactive targets out to 500m with iron sights. So you can't tell me they ain't accurate.

So was I. If you do the math (heck, or just ask your unit's armorer), you'll find that the acceptable level of accuracy is 3MOA. However, go to a precision forum where users aren't required to have combat reliable weapons and 3MOA sounds pretty bad - it's easy to build an accurate rifle if you throw out the military reliability and construction requirements. Many bolt guns and unlined-barreled commercial AR's can shoot 1 MOA - that doesn't make them combat-worthy. Unfortunately, the average AR user doesn't understand this and assumes that sub-MOA accurate = military grade. It has nothing to do with that.

That's why there's this myth among AR shooters that anything over 1MOA is worse than a shotgun and that every decent AR is capable of sub-MOA accuracy. Neither are true. The average AR has an accuracy of 2-3 MOA, which is more than enough for COM hits out to 4-500 yards.

 

[elfster1234]

I think as stated in the OP title... precision....... I would say shooting 2moa @ 100yards with iron sights & colt rifle is "accurate"...... I would say shooting .5moa @ 100yards with a 16x scope & a bull barreled AR is "precision".... kinda two different things... you're most likely NOT going to shoot .375moa bug hole groups with a light to heavy chrome lined barrel colt with iron sights consistently....

Well I'm in the military and shoot them...so I don't just read the internet. Hell last training I shot reactive targets out to 500m with iron sights. So you can't tell me they ain't accurate.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I understand what the "acceptable" limit is and there is no debate about that, but I have never seen one shoot over 2 MOA. If I put an optic on an A4, put it on a front rest with a bag, I bet I can get 1 MOA or better.

 

[Delta4-3]

Being in the military isn't a good argument. 95% of MOS's are civilian jobs in which the emloyee wears camo.

 

[elfster1234]

I understand your point, but shooting for precision is sub-moa consistently with an AR semi-auto which is usually shooting for bug hole groups (which is really not everyone's cup of tea) and not banging steel (unless you're well over 400yards depending on the steel plate size such as a 9.9999" plate @ 1000yards, then yes that is precision!!!) or anything over 1moa is not really precision and is just accurate in my book........ lets not forget the OP title here gang... precision, precision, precision AT a budget / off the shelf. It is kinda the whole point of the shootout thread and kinda what everyone basis their rifle accuracy on really.

I understand what the "acceptable" limit is and there is no debate about that, but I have never seen one shoot over 2 MOA. If I put an optic on an A4, put it on a front rest with a bag, I bet I can get 1 MOA or better.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Being in the military isn't a good argument. 95% of MOS's are civilian jobs in which the emloyee wears camo.

Just because I am not in a "combat MOS" does not negate the fact of training with and shooting a issued rifle to a standard.

 

[elfster1234]

and what kinda of optic are you talking about?

anyway, if you can get sub-moa with iron sights, or hell,,,,, even a red dot get it posted on the shoot out thread for the love of god! It would be killer! Hell, I just tried on the 2nd page of the round2 shootout thread that is going on this very second... check it out! I sure as hell couldn't get under sub-moa and that was with a heavy barrel chrome-moly AR with an aimpoint pro and I would consider myself above average shooter.

Here you go, check it out: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...yard-semi-auto-6group-30round-shootout-2.html


I would more than welcome you to try your A4 with irons or 1x red-dot @ 100yards and get sub-moa... I sure as hell couldn't do it.

I understand what the "acceptable" limit is and there is no debate about that, but I have never seen one shoot over 2 MOA. If I put an optic on an A4, put it on a front rest with a bag, I bet I can get 1 MOA or better.

 

[Skyyr]

I understand what the "acceptable" limit is and there is no debate about that, but I have never seen one shoot over 2 MOA. If I put an optic on an A4, put it on a front rest with a bag, I bet I can get 1 MOA or better.

M855 and M193 ball (the usual issued ammo) are, by requirement, 2 MOA ammunition. While you might get some groups better than 2 MOA, your average group size will be 2 MOA with either of those. The ammo itself is not capable of precision beyond that.

 

[Shooter0311]

Yeah, lots of civilian jobs shoot irons at 500... All the guy was saying is irons are more accurate than a lot of folks think.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

The point I am trying to make is that if I take a factory as issued Colt/FN M16A4 or a civilian brand equivalent and slap a scope on it I can get 1MOA or better groups with it. It was just adding another opinion and in response to comments that people say the issued arms are not accurate and that the RRA isn't reliable and you need a LWRC or KAC bull shit.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Yeah, lots of civilian jobs shoot irons at 500... All the guy was saying is irons are more accurate than a lot of folks think.

This as well. No where did I say I am shooting one hole groups with a 30 round magazine at 100 yds with iron sights...but small groups are going to get done if you slap a scope on a A4.

 

[elfster1234]

then do it and get it posted. looking forward to your entry.

The point I am trying to make is that if I take a factory as issued Colt/FN M16A4 or a civilian brand equivalent and slap a scope on it I can get 1MOA or better groups with it. It was just adding another opinion and in response to comments that people say the issued arms are not accurate and that the RRA isn't reliable and you need a LWRC or KAC bull shit.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

And what about Highpower/Service Rifle competitions? A lot of people out there can shoot small groups at distance with a factory "as issued" M16/AR with irons.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

then do it and get it posted. looking forward to your entry.

Send me a rifle and I'll cover the ammo and we can get it done.

 

[elfster1234]

crazydonkey, I don't think you are getting the point as listed in the OP bro.... PRECISION at a budget price and off the shelf.

ive always been one to say walk the walk, and if you think you can do better than what others have done with LMT's, OBR's, and what not with 16x stupid expensive scopes that cost well over $4k as listed on the shootout thread and are NOT under 1moa... then post your entry!!! I'm being honest here, i'm looking forward to it... matter of fact I wish more people would post those result even if they don't make the top ten... anyone that does those shootout entries will tell you that I'm itching for that kind of information... do it my friend (honestly not being cocky here, i'm looking forward to your results)... Any and all information is good information.

And what about Highpower/Service Rifle competitions? A lot of people out there can shoot small groups at distance with a factory "as issued" M16/AR with irons.

 

[elfster1234]

oh come on now... you're going to say all of that when you don't have the rifle nor want to spend $15 worth / 30round of ammo? I'm giving you hard core information with these shoot out threads and reloading information and you're going to say that to me? honestly, you got to have a friend with a rifle and $15 of ammo with a .25cent target to prove your point. I've tried numerous times on SH here and I think it is safe to say I'm not full of BS... those that have tried the shootout thread will tell you how hard it is... even for an experienced shooter.

Send me a rifle and I'll cover the ammo and we can get it done.

 

[elfster1234]

heck, even this guy with a tweaked out RRA that shoots irons & JUST posted a couple days ago I think would say the same thing i'm saying.... and he did the very same.... slapped a scope on his rifle... do it my friend. Looking forward to it

Send me a rifle and I'll cover the ammo and we can get it done.

I would call this precision and not just "accurate". This is some damn good shooting out of an AR rifle. 40%shooter, 40%rifle, and 20%ammo IMO.... all the way to the bank:

As the title says... "not as easy as it looks"

This is my first attempt at any comp like this. 30 shots on paper is a chore. I had this rifle with open sights on it and put a bench rest scope on it for our local Varmint Silhouette matches. It is the most accurate rifle I have in an AR platform. I have managed some good groups out of it, but six in a row is rough. Flyers courtesy of my weak skills..

I see some vertical stringing in some of this, looks like I got development to do for this rifle.

Mostly, I am posting this up to get my buddy back in Texas, Tenzero to man up and get shooting. Game on.


Rock River receivers, Jewel Trigger, 24 inch 1/8 twist Bull.
Nightforce 8x32 Bench Rest scope
77 SMK, 23.5 gn CFE 223, mag length
6,000 feet
70 degrees
5ish 90 degree wind
Bipod, rear bag, on a bench


Smallest.. .525 - .224 = .301

All the groups...

The tool...

 

[LtDan]

Well I'm in the military and shoot them...so I don't just read the internet. Hell last training I shot reactive targets out to 500m with iron sights. So you can't tell me they ain't accurate.

Get hold of that one again and use it. It's a shooter!

Back to the original topic, no flaming on RRA from me. I don't believe you can get a more accurate and reliable weapon for less money. I'm very fortunate, free ammo and paid time to shoot, I can buy a more expensive platform but hard to justify. I do absolutely lust after a GAP 10 though...

 

[Skyyr]

And what about Highpower/Service Rifle competitions? A lot of people out there can shoot small groups at distance with a factory "as issued" M16/AR with irons.

Those aren't "as issued." They are tweaked to be as accurate as possible. Chromed bolts, free-float handguards (even though they look like traditional plastic handguards), etc. You can spend north of $2,000 on an irons-only rifle for this type of competition... and many shooters do.

 

[elfster1234]

funny you say that!! my dream AR is a GAP in a 20" 260 !!!! OMG! that would be bad ass shit! If reloading for 260 didn't suck ass in comparison to 5.56 or heck even 7.62 i'd do it in a heartbeat! Only thing that holds me back from my dream gap .260 rifle is reloading for my RRA in 5.56 is so stupid cheap (like .25 per round) and is stupid accurate out of a $1k rifle!! really, at that point... there is no point. Yes, my RRA could have a more "coolness" factor, but when I'm shooting .179moa 5shot bug hole groups = who gives a shit! it can shoot for f#ck sake.


.07 per varget 23gr drop, .15 per 60gr vmax bullet, and .03 per cci primer = .25 cent per 5.56 round for sub-moa PRECISION work... hell yeah! for the love of god people, that is $5 per 20round box comparison... IF you don't reload, then you're missing out! Get on it! Most if not damn near all of you are just punching holes in paper or slapping steel anyway so who gives a shit.

Get hold of that one again and use it. It's a shooter!

Back to the original topic, no flaming on RRA from me. I don't believe you can get a more accurate and reliable weapon for less money. I'm very fortunate, free ammo and paid time to shoot, I can buy a more expensive platform but hard to justify. I do absolutely lust after a GAP 10 though...