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In the Market for an AR-10 (buy or build?)
- Thread starter wigwamitus
- Start date
I looked at them all and decided to go,with an LMT...they are outstanding rifles with excellent accuracy. I have a number of AR 10’s from light (CA 10) to heaviest SR 25 20” which is sub MOA all day....having experienced all that the reasons why I never built one was that I saw many of my friends experience a variety of malfunctions associated with a multitude of factors including gas port size, suppression, cycling etc etc...my suggestion would be an
LMT MWSF....with a Slick slide receiver....outstanding accuracy and it takes less than 2 minutes to change from an 18” heavy barreled stainless 308 to a 24” LMT sold Rock River 6.5 Creedmoor that I enjoy using in PRS competitions. It’s an extremely accurate rifle and it’s never malfunctioned yet (surprisingly)!!! YMMV...these are my experiences alone....
Remember that this is a monolith upper so you can attach your optic anywhere you need to...here I have a NF 5-25x56 Mil C FFP....
LMT MWSF....with a Slick slide receiver....outstanding accuracy and it takes less than 2 minutes to change from an 18” heavy barreled stainless 308 to a 24” LMT sold Rock River 6.5 Creedmoor that I enjoy using in PRS competitions. It’s an extremely accurate rifle and it’s never malfunctioned yet (surprisingly)!!! YMMV...these are my experiences alone....
Remember that this is a monolith upper so you can attach your optic anywhere you need to...here I have a NF 5-25x56 Mil C FFP....
Thank you Sir! LMT (although well known in certain military circles) kind of sits underneath the radar for many. You are fortunate to own one as they are outstanding rifles....curiously I have multiple KA’s and LMT’s (LMT manufactures the BCG’s for KA and the lowers for KA as well)....
The SLK8 is a sick rifle dude! I went out and sourced all the parts for the LMT NEW ZEALAND Rifle (The rifle above is currently used by the British SAS in caliber NATO 7.62x51; I believe the British are using a 155 grain SMK OTM)....
The rifle below is also awesome tack driver (surprisingly)....although it’s built like a brick shithouse and could go on a diet lol....
@Voyager1
Nice man. Yea it definitely has some weight to it but I'll take the extra weight if it runs like it it should regardless of the abuse. I haven't had a chance to run any MK262 through it, but I've been wanting to test its capabilities. But yea, LMT are some great systems. When I was shopping around for my 308 gas gun, I briefly looked at LMT, GAP, and LaRue but decided on the LaRue. The lack of an MOA guarantee I think is what turned me away from them.
Nice man. Yea it definitely has some weight to it but I'll take the extra weight if it runs like it it should regardless of the abuse. I haven't had a chance to run any MK262 through it, but I've been wanting to test its capabilities. But yea, LMT are some great systems. When I was shopping around for my 308 gas gun, I briefly looked at LMT, GAP, and LaRue but decided on the LaRue. The lack of an MOA guarantee I think is what turned me away from them.
You know that’s an interesting point...I’ve never based my desicions on an accuracy guarantee...maybe I’m an idiot but I always assumed that if I used the right ammo, the correct form and the proper optics and mounting protocols etc...I would be able to shoot sub MOA....and I’ve yet to be disappointed. On the flip side I’ve purchased rifles that came with a sub MOA guarantee because of specific features that I really really liked (won’t name names in a public forum) but I personally could never get sub MOA no matter how hard I tried....so I never placed much emphasis on that guarantee. It makes sense why someone would but my brain doesn’t work like that??
Cheers sir ??????????
lol yea I get it. I'm always taking whatever I'm using and trying to run it as a precision system because I have some sort of mental defect haha. It is a gift...and a curse.
Cheers man.
Ok, here is pic of Harris .. I added a light green arrow pointing to what I am calling the "tensioning" screw. If you can't see it, click on the pic to maximize the pic size. Then you could be able to see it. That's the screw that comes loose under recoil that is annoying with the Harris' for me.
Ok, trying photo again ... any better ???
Ok, trying photo again ... any better ???
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@wigwamitus
Are you referring to the cant tension screw on the back side of the bipod (towards the shooter)? If so, that's too easy man, swap it out with a pod-lock lever. You can see them in the pic I posted of my rifles in the back of the truck. The picture on this post is of my work M24 (company won't let us make mods to any of our equipment so I cant swap this out). As a workaround here, I used some ammo crate foam and tape to make wedges and shoved them in the cant springs to negate the wobble. I can still adjust for slight cant by rotating the rifle and obviously adjust for uneven terrain with the legs.
Not sure if that's what you are talking about, but if so, I definitely recommend getting a Pod-Lock for it. Takes maybe two minutes to swap out.
www.kmwlrs.com
Are you referring to the cant tension screw on the back side of the bipod (towards the shooter)? If so, that's too easy man, swap it out with a pod-lock lever. You can see them in the pic I posted of my rifles in the back of the truck. The picture on this post is of my work M24 (company won't let us make mods to any of our equipment so I cant swap this out). As a workaround here, I used some ammo crate foam and tape to make wedges and shoved them in the cant springs to negate the wobble. I can still adjust for slight cant by rotating the rifle and obviously adjust for uneven terrain with the legs.
Not sure if that's what you are talking about, but if so, I definitely recommend getting a Pod-Lock for it. Takes maybe two minutes to swap out.
KMW Pod-Loc
Pod-Loc. Original Harris swivel lock kit. Only locking kit made 100% in US and issued N.S.N.
www.kmwlrs.com
Attachments
Negatif ... this one is on the front underside, away from the shooter ... I tried re-doing the pic ^^ can you see it yet ??
@wigwamitus
Ahhh ok, yea dude too easy. You have that other ADM mount, but I meant the actual part that replaces all of that. Trust me on this, you're about to be blown away sir...
www.shortactionprecision.com
Boom. Gets rid of that stupid twist screw and the need for a bipod stud. Cuts weight and keeps the bipod nice and tight/close to your rail. That's the ADM mount I meant earlier. The Harris with this QD mount and a Pod-Lock is perfection.
Ahhh ok, yea dude too easy. You have that other ADM mount, but I meant the actual part that replaces all of that. Trust me on this, you're about to be blown away sir...
ADM Harris Bipod to Pic Rail 2 Piece Adapter - Short Action Precision
NEW 2 PIECE MODEL! - Clamp with Adapter The American Defense Manufacturing AD-BP-P2 adapter will replace the sling swivel stud mounting plate on your Harris Swivel bipod to allow you to use it on any Picatinny rail out there. It is the is built around their 170-S state of the art quick release...
Boom. Gets rid of that stupid twist screw and the need for a bipod stud. Cuts weight and keeps the bipod nice and tight/close to your rail. That's the ADM mount I meant earlier. The Harris with this QD mount and a Pod-Lock is perfection.
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Pretty sure this is the same mount atlas uses as well@wigwamitus
Ahhh ok, yea dude too easy. You have that other ADM mount, but I meant the actual part that replaces all of that. Trust me on this, you're about to be blown away sir...
ADM Harris Bipod to Pic Rail 2 Piece Adapter - Short Action Precision
NEW 2 PIECE MODEL! - Clamp with Adapter The American Defense Manufacturing AD-BP-P2 adapter will replace the sling swivel stud mounting plate on your Harris Swivel bipod to allow you to use it on any Picatinny rail out there. It is the is built around their 170-S state of the art quick release...
Boom. Gets rid of that stupid twist screw and the need for a bipod stud. Cuts weight and keeps the bipod nice and tight/close to your rail. That's the ADM mount I meant earlier. The Harris with this QD mount and a Pod-Lock is perfection.
@TacticalDillhole
It is. I have the same mount on my Harris and my Atlas CAL. The only way to go for running bipods.
@srt-4_uk
If looking at full retail price, true. However if someone already has the Harris bipod, then they can pick up a used ADM mount, Pod-Lok, and feet adapter in the PX for pretty cheap. Also, a lot of people don't like the PSR because of the pan feature (me included, thus the CAL). Hell, every few weeks or months you'll see a decked out HBRMS go for like 150 shipped.
It is. I have the same mount on my Harris and my Atlas CAL. The only way to go for running bipods.
@srt-4_uk
If looking at full retail price, true. However if someone already has the Harris bipod, then they can pick up a used ADM mount, Pod-Lok, and feet adapter in the PX for pretty cheap. Also, a lot of people don't like the PSR because of the pan feature (me included, thus the CAL). Hell, every few weeks or months you'll see a decked out HBRMS go for like 150 shipped.
Oh my ... sounds like I will have to try these !!
And "Atlas Feet Adapters" ??? They make those too !? Who knew !!
Thanks!!
BTW, I buy the basic BT10 V8 Atlas. The direct thread. Those are $220 list, so same exact total as the above list for the fancified Harris !!
I find I don't need to remove and attach my bipods in the field ... and would rather save the weight over the QDs ... QDs might be "kool" ... but not sure how practical they are ... overrated maybe in many cases ?
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Ok, in the mean time, back to the AR-10 ... I am still in my "due diligence" phase ... looking at the options ...
Action items:
01 - Watch the seekins video above ^^
02 - Continue to investigate why seeking upper/lower might be better than aero
03 - Investigate why mega upper/lower might be better than aero
04 - Talk to GA to make sure on some details
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I hear the message on the newer Larue barrels. That is a concern. Otherwise, I like the Larue. The 20 moa rail is nice ... the bolt assist is nice ... on the phone they said even with the OBR changing the barrels is quick and easy with their barrels and their tools. And I can see a use case to swap between the 20 inch and the 16 inch barrels for long distance, versus patrol. Need to replace the trigger and the stock.
The GAP is pretty close to my build since it uses the same barrel and AGB ... just replaces the aero receivers with the seekins. No 20 moa rail, no bolt assist, need to replace the trigger and the stock.
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So I will get busy and continue the due diligence ... thanks!!! And keep it coming if anyone has more ideas !!
I’ve seen a few gen 1 gaps in the px recentlyOh my ... sounds like I will have to try these !!
And "Atlas Feet Adapters" ??? They make those too !? Who knew !!
Thanks!!
BTW, I buy the basic BT10 V8 Atlas. The direct thread. Those are $220 list, so same exact total as the above list for the fancified Harris !!
I find I don't need to remove and attach my bipods in the field ... and would rather save the weight over the QDs ... QDs might be "kool" ... but not sure how practical they are ... overrated maybe in many cases ?
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==
==
Ok, in the mean time, back to the AR-10 ... I am still in my "due diligence" phase ... looking at the options ...
Action items:
01 - Watch the seekins video above ^^
02 - Continue to investigate why seeking upper/lower might be better than aero
03 - Investigate why mega upper/lower might be better than aero
04 - Talk to GA to make sure on some details
==
I hear the message on the newer Larue barrels. That is a concern. Otherwise, I like the Larue. The 20 moa rail is nice ... the bolt assist is nice ... on the phone they said even with the OBR changing the barrels is quick and easy with their barrels and their tools. And I can see a use case to swap between the 20 inch and the 16 inch barrels for long distance, versus patrol. Need to replace the trigger and the stock.
The GAP is pretty close to my build since it uses the same barrel and AGB ... just replaces the aero receivers with the seekins. No 20 moa rail, no bolt assist, need to replace the trigger and the stock.
==
So I will get busy and continue the due diligence ... thanks!!! And keep it coming if anyone has more ideas !!
They are annoying as heck....u have to buy one of those locks to adjust the tensioning screw so u just spent another 50 dollars on your Harris Bipod....Ok, here is pic of Harris .. I added a light green arrow pointing to what I am calling the "tensioning" screw. If you can't see it, click on the pic to maximize the pic size. Then you could be able to see it. That's the screw that comes loose under recoil that is annoying with the Harris' for me.
Ok, trying photo again ... any better ???
Never mind, there was another set yesterday. I see the grey one now. Y’all better hurry. LOL
Posts on Aero versus Seekins and Mega uppers/lowers
https://forum.308ar.com/topic/12481-seekins-vs-aero-quality/
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/aero-precision-opinions-and-experiences-wanted.6878330/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Aero-Precision-upper-lower-sets/4-711090/
The main plus of the Mega is stated to be the finish. That means nothing to me, if it doesn't come FDE I will "rattle can" it ... all my guns look like crap ... but that is fine with me ... my serious shooting is all done at night
The consensus seems to be they all work.
https://forum.308ar.com/topic/12481-seekins-vs-aero-quality/
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/aero-precision-opinions-and-experiences-wanted.6878330/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Aero-Precision-upper-lower-sets/4-711090/
The main plus of the Mega is stated to be the finish. That means nothing to me, if it doesn't come FDE I will "rattle can" it ... all my guns look like crap ... but that is fine with me ... my serious shooting is all done at night
The consensus seems to be they all work.
Posts on Aero versus Seekins and Mega uppers/lowers
https://forum.308ar.com/topic/12481-seekins-vs-aero-quality/
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/aero-precision-opinions-and-experiences-wanted.6878330/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Aero-Precision-upper-lower-sets/4-711090/
The main plus of the Mega is stated to be the finish. That means nothing to me, if it doesn't come FDE I will "rattle can" it ... all my guns look like crap ... but that is fine with me ... my serious shooting is all done at night
The consensus seems to be they all work.
The biggest plus is it’s a billet set instead of forged. But yea, the fit and finish is way beyond Aero.
Posts on Aero versus Seekins and Mega uppers/lowers
https://forum.308ar.com/topic/12481-seekins-vs-aero-quality/
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/aero-precision-opinions-and-experiences-wanted.6878330/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Aero-Precision-upper-lower-sets/4-711090/
The main plus of the Mega is stated to be the finish. That means nothing to me, if it doesn't come FDE I will "rattle can" it ... all my guns look like crap ... but that is fine with me ... my serious shooting is all done at night
The consensus seems to be they all work.
Finish meaningvthe quality. Edges are rounded over. Fittmentbisbpeedwct. TolerNces are tight. Not the color. Quality.
R u sure billet is a plus over forged ? This says billet wins in "aesthetics" ... forged wins on strength ...
I'll give up looks for strength !
https://www.80-lower.com/blogs/80-lower-blog/ar-lower-receivers-cast-vs-billet-vs-forged-aluminum/
The mega receiver is sold. However billet is better than forged because the upper and lower were machined together. They fit together perfect. If you have to use shims or nylon tip screws to get the upper and lower to lock up you’ve already lost.
BTW, I saw you talking about the mega upper/lower for sale ... just FYI I was not and am not in the market (yet) ... I'm still in the due diligence phase ... studying up on the options ... no reason to hurry ... I need my tax return back before I move ... so still have about 2 months before the $$ arrives.
Ok I buy "perfect" ... but I wonder if "perfect" is necessary ... my completely unmatched upper and lower 6.5G(18) (and similar 5.56(18) .. both do sub 0.75 inch groups prone and off tripod ... and while for the bolt guns, I'm down at 0.64 .. 0.65 prone ... and I might try for 0.5 one day ... 0.75 meets my expectations for the stoners ... I'm not trying to get to 0.5 with them. And I've never used shims or nylon tip screws ... so I'm worse than lost !!
Your are also dealing with low recoil calibers and you are investing a fair chunk of change, why not try for that razors edge of precision. I am in no way saying no to aero, I’m just saying for not much more you can do a lot better. That’s all. Amatched billet receiver set will eliminate just one of the variables in the ar10 platform because as has been stated, there is no standard. You have armalite and dogs pattern. In there you also have dogs high and low. It can get frustrating.BTW, I saw you talking about the mega upper/lower for sale ... just FYI I was not and am not in the market (yet) ... I'm still in the due diligence phase ... studying up on the options ... no reason to hurry ... I need my tax return back before I move ... so still have about 2 months before the $$ arrives.
Ok I buy "perfect" ... but I wonder if "perfect" is necessary ... my completely unmatched upper and lower 6.5G(18) (and similar 5.56(18) .. both do sub 0.75 inch groups prone and off tripod ... and while for the bolt guns, I'm down at 0.64 .. 0.65 prone ... and I might try for 0.5 one day ... 0.75 meets my expectations for the stoners ... I'm not trying to get to 0.5 with them. And I've never used shims or nylon tip screws ... so I'm worse than lost !!
Now as to the bolt assist, is it needed ... ???
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Why_no_forward_assist_on_all_of_the_308_AR_uppers_/121-514878/
Thinking about my own experience ... I've shot all my stoners (3 carbines, 3 rifles ... counting the .22lr) until they wouldn't shoot any more ... around 1500-2000 rds for the center fires ... about 500rds for the .22lr ... I found the edges ... if I'm doing something serious, I clean them. But I want to know where the edges are ... and towards the ends of those cycles ... I was using the bolt assists ... now when I had the Sig 7.62 .. it had a bolt assist, but I don't recall using it ... it did stove pipe if I didn't clean the chamber ... but it was a piston ... so it didn't get all jammed up in BCG like the impigment guns do. So, I think I buy the idea that a bolt assist is at least far less necessary on a 7.62 stoner ... the 30 cal round is bigger and heavy and a little carbon fluff is far less likely to stop it short as it does the 77gr I usually shot in the 5.56 stoners.
Of all the ones currently on my list ... the aero precision and larue have them ... seekins (and GAP) and mega and WC do not. So I think decision made, I can live without the bolt assist on this one.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Why_no_forward_assist_on_all_of_the_308_AR_uppers_/121-514878/
Thinking about my own experience ... I've shot all my stoners (3 carbines, 3 rifles ... counting the .22lr) until they wouldn't shoot any more ... around 1500-2000 rds for the center fires ... about 500rds for the .22lr ... I found the edges ... if I'm doing something serious, I clean them. But I want to know where the edges are ... and towards the ends of those cycles ... I was using the bolt assists ... now when I had the Sig 7.62 .. it had a bolt assist, but I don't recall using it ... it did stove pipe if I didn't clean the chamber ... but it was a piston ... so it didn't get all jammed up in BCG like the impigment guns do. So, I think I buy the idea that a bolt assist is at least far less necessary on a 7.62 stoner ... the 30 cal round is bigger and heavy and a little carbon fluff is far less likely to stop it short as it does the 77gr I usually shot in the 5.56 stoners.
Of all the ones currently on my list ... the aero precision and larue have them ... seekins (and GAP) and mega and WC do not. So I think decision made, I can live without the bolt assist on this one.
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I don’t have a fwd assist on any ar10. Not necessary in my opinion. MAny would say not needed on an ar15, I disagree because they can get pretty dirty and can need a little assist.
... "dogs" = DPMS ??
Interesting ...
Makes since but I've found that EYE am a HUGE variable and I've been spending most of my time working on MOI with relatively crappy guns ... I have no Desert Techs, no AIs, no GAPs, etc. Just a lot of crap ... but I've learned how to fix 'em when they break and keep 'em working ... and that's something, since I know of no real gunsmtih within 100 miles of me !
Counting the optic and the magazines and the pelican ... and the bipod ... and maybe another suppressor ... this is easily a $5k gun ... and the difference in buy versus build in terms of cost, isn't strategic ... especially in the long run. For me, getting a known entity barrel and trigger are the priorities ... and the turn off for the Larue (unfortunately because I like the AGB, the 20 moa rail, the easy change barrels and even my experience with the on the phone) But the question marks around the new barrels are a big pause on the Larues ... I need to call WC and GAP and see what they have to say. My assessment is the aeros will work and I can get them in FDE, so I won't have to rattle can ...
If I had to decide today it would be the GAP because my build won't be much different, mainly the trigger and the stock need to be swapped out. And I haven't even settled on the trigger. I need to ask you guys about triggers !!!
Yeah. DPMS. STUPID AUTO CORRECT... "dogs" = DPMS ??
Interesting ...
Makes since but I've found that EYE am a HUGE variable and I've been spending most of my time working on MOI with relatively crappy guns ... I have no Desert Techs, no AIs, no GAPs, etc. Just a lot of crap ... but I've learned how to fix 'em when they break and keep 'em working ... and that's something, since I know of no real gunsmtih within 100 miles of me !
Counting the optic and the magazines and the pelican ... and the bipod ... and maybe another suppressor ... this is easily a $5k gun ... and the difference in buy versus build in terms of cost, isn't strategic ... especially in the long run. For me, getting a known entity barrel and trigger are the priorities ... and the turn off for the Larue (unfortunately because I like the AGB, the 20 moa rail, the easy change barrels and even my experience with the on the phone) But the question marks around the new barrels are a big pause on the Larues ... I need to call WC and GAP and see what they have to say. My assessment is the aeros will work and I can get them in FDE, so I won't have to rattle can ...
If I had to decide today it would be the GAP because my build won't be much different, mainly the trigger and the stock need to be swapped out. And I haven't even settled on the trigger. I need to ask you guys about triggers !!!
Trigger tech.... "dogs" = DPMS ??
Interesting ...
Makes since but I've found that EYE am a HUGE variable and I've been spending most of my time working on MOI with relatively crappy guns ... I have no Desert Techs, no AIs, no GAPs, etc. Just a lot of crap ... but I've learned how to fix 'em when they break and keep 'em working ... and that's something, since I know of no real gunsmtih within 100 miles of me !
Counting the optic and the magazines and the pelican ... and the bipod ... and maybe another suppressor ... this is easily a $5k gun ... and the difference in buy versus build in terms of cost, isn't strategic ... especially in the long run. For me, getting a known entity barrel and trigger are the priorities ... and the turn off for the Larue (unfortunately because I like the AGB, the 20 moa rail, the easy change barrels and even my experience with the on the phone) But the question marks around the new barrels are a big pause on the Larues ... I need to call WC and GAP and see what they have to say. My assessment is the aeros will work and I can get them in FDE, so I won't have to rattle can ...
If I had to decide today it would be the GAP because my build won't be much different, mainly the trigger and the stock need to be swapped out. And I haven't even settled on the trigger. I need to ask you guys about triggers !!!
haha ... I assumed DPMS was so unpopular with you ... you called 'em "dogs" to make sure we got the message !!
Actually I only build DPMS. Parts are much easier to come by.haha ... I assumed DPMS was so unpopular with you ... you called 'em "dogs" to make sure we got the message !!
I’m not a fan of forcing a round into the chamber that didn’t freely go in with the force of the BCG.
And your trigger, Geissele SSA-E
And your trigger, Geissele SSA-E
....What? Dude it definitely matters if you expect any sort of consistent accuracy.
@wigwamitus
As for the forward assist...
I personally prefer them, especially if you plan on running suppressed at all. If you are only going to shoot a couple mags each time at the range and keep your BCG and upper clean/lubed, then you could probably get away with not having one.
As to my experience, my bucket of parts 6.5G(18)
Starting in Q4 2018, I am recording every group I shoot. So for Q4 for the 6.5G(18) the results were
0.77 inch - prone
0.81 inch - Really Right Stuff (RRS)
Now in Q1 the results are
0.59 inch - prone
Most of the poor groups in Q4 were me not having the cheek/stock weld and eyerelief matching the scopes. I move my scopes around a lot and each time have to get set on the correct head position for that scope.
==
With the .22LR(16) I usually shoot small scored targets at 25yds. 25yds because my zero is 25yds, so I can be double zeroed around 65-75yds for hunting.
Here is a target board from October 2018 ... the bulls are 1/8 inch .. so about 1/2 MOA.
So roughly the same as shooting 1/2 inch dots at 100yds. I was getting an acceptable number of hits on the bulls, but not "clearing" any of the 10 bull targets (I use the 11th center target as my "sighter" target).
==
And like many, I've heard the sloppy mate between the upper and lower is not good for accuracy ... and ALL my stoners are sloppy, since they are all buckets of parts ... but thus far, I'm been able to explain the issues due to other causes. In the case of the .22LR the issue was later determined to be trigger pulling process and I've changed it now. Now I put ball of thumb behind the pistol grip and trigger finger on the trigger in "Frank" style and squeeze the slowly together. Since they are opposing there is no sideways movement. I do this for the stoners and the results have improved by at least 0.1 inches on the groups. Don't grip that pistol grip!
Anyway, I'm sure the mating matters, but I don't think I've gotten all the other variables down to the point where the mating is at the top of the list. Maybe I will one day, or maybe not.
That's my 0.02 cents ...
Starting in Q4 2018, I am recording every group I shoot. So for Q4 for the 6.5G(18) the results were
0.77 inch - prone
0.81 inch - Really Right Stuff (RRS)
Now in Q1 the results are
0.59 inch - prone
Most of the poor groups in Q4 were me not having the cheek/stock weld and eyerelief matching the scopes. I move my scopes around a lot and each time have to get set on the correct head position for that scope.
==
With the .22LR(16) I usually shoot small scored targets at 25yds. 25yds because my zero is 25yds, so I can be double zeroed around 65-75yds for hunting.
Here is a target board from October 2018 ... the bulls are 1/8 inch .. so about 1/2 MOA.
So roughly the same as shooting 1/2 inch dots at 100yds. I was getting an acceptable number of hits on the bulls, but not "clearing" any of the 10 bull targets (I use the 11th center target as my "sighter" target).
==
And like many, I've heard the sloppy mate between the upper and lower is not good for accuracy ... and ALL my stoners are sloppy, since they are all buckets of parts ... but thus far, I'm been able to explain the issues due to other causes. In the case of the .22LR the issue was later determined to be trigger pulling process and I've changed it now. Now I put ball of thumb behind the pistol grip and trigger finger on the trigger in "Frank" style and squeeze the slowly together. Since they are opposing there is no sideways movement. I do this for the stoners and the results have improved by at least 0.1 inches on the groups. Don't grip that pistol grip!
Anyway, I'm sure the mating matters, but I don't think I've gotten all the other variables down to the point where the mating is at the top of the list. Maybe I will one day, or maybe not.
That's my 0.02 cents ...
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As to "how" ... my guess would be if they don't mate well, then the upper recoils backwards and bumps in to the lower at an angle and causes the upper to twist and if the bullet isn't out of the barrel yet, the bullet goes in a different direction than when it was pointing at the time the trigger was pulled. But again, I cannot confirm having experienced such a phenomena. I've been able to explain my lack of consistency, with other causes, thus far.
Explain why it doesn’t matter if your lower and upper aren’t tight. Legitimately curious.
If you have play between your lower (stock and firing controls) and upper (barrel and optic) then you are introducing an inconsistent variable into your system which will effect accuracy. If you just want to shoot for the sake of pulling a trigger and feeling recoil, then it doesn’t matter. But if you want your system to perform in a consistent manner, then they need to be tight with zero play.
Inconsistencies amplify each other’s overall effect on accuracy. Even the amount of carbon on your BCG, if your mag is empty, or if you run polymer vs metal mags can and will effect your accuracy in a gas gun. Each issue will stack up and lead to an 1/8MOA here, another 1/4MOA there, etc.
There’s a lot more that goes into running a gas gun accurately than a bolt gun. These are some of the issues. But end of the day, you don’t want wobble between your stock/firing controls and barrel/optic. ...same as you wouldn’t want play in your rings/optic/barrel.
Think of it as a bolt action sitting loosely in a stock without it being bedded or torqued.
If you have play between your lower (stock and firing controls) and upper (barrel and optic) then you are introducing an inconsistent variable into your system which will effect accuracy. If you just want to shoot for the sake of pulling a trigger and feeling recoil, then it doesn’t matter. But if you want your system to perform in a consistent manner, then they need to be tight with zero play.
Inconsistencies amplify each other’s overall effect on accuracy. Even the amount of carbon on your BCG, if your mag is empty, or if you run polymer vs metal mags can and will effect your accuracy in a gas gun. Each issue will stack up and lead to an 1/8MOA here, another 1/4MOA there, etc.
There’s a lot more that goes into running a gas gun accurately than a bolt gun. These are some of the issues. But end of the day, you don’t want wobble between your stock/firing controls and barrel/optic. ...same as you wouldn’t want play in your rings/optic/barrel.
Think of it as a bolt action sitting loosely in a stock without it being bedded or torqued.
I definitely agree it could matter. But the question is, "how much does it matter?"
In my limited experience ... I have not been able to detect it ... for sure ... I've found other problems, that I corrected, that seemed to matter because the results reflected improvement after the corrections.
In my day job, I've written software to find bottlenecks in semi-conductor manufacturing equipment (using Petri Nets) ... I might find 13 performance bottlenecks. We fix two of them and meet the customers' requirements ... we never fix all 13 ... we fix the top few.
So, if this issue is fairly far down in the issue stack, you might need to be trying to do 0.5 inch groups or even 0.25 inch groups before this issue matters ??
In my limited experience ... I have not been able to detect it ... for sure ... I've found other problems, that I corrected, that seemed to matter because the results reflected improvement after the corrections.
In my day job, I've written software to find bottlenecks in semi-conductor manufacturing equipment (using Petri Nets) ... I might find 13 performance bottlenecks. We fix two of them and meet the customers' requirements ... we never fix all 13 ... we fix the top few.
So, if this issue is fairly far down in the issue stack, you might need to be trying to do 0.5 inch groups or even 0.25 inch groups before this issue matters ??
It’s a value equation like averything else. If it isn’t a priority for you then drive on. But do you want accuracy and precision or just accuracy? I want both personally.
@wigwamitus
Exactly. If you're just looking for a plinker, then you don't need to worry about it an some play won't be noticeable downrange. Like I mentioned to @Voyager1 above, I try to employ each system I fire as a precision system in order to get the best results from it. So to me, that's a huge no-go but that's only because I'm always trying to get the tightest group possible (sub minute and sub half).
With an M4 running M855, the play isn't a big deal. Same goes for an AR10 running FMJ ammo. But if I'm going to run an AR15 or AR10 with some match ammo, then I want the tolerances to be as tight as possible in order to remove them from the (margin of error) equation. All comes down to what you're goals are for the platform. Personally, I don't like to be limited by my equipment as I want to be the thing that limits it.
Can you hit a target at 1,000yds with an AR10 that has a loose receiver set? Sure. You won't be able to do it consistently and will end up just getting impacts by lobbing enough rounds at it. Same goes for shooting thumb tacks at 100yds.
If you're going to build, build it right that way you are covered down the line if you ever want to employ it in a different capacity.
@TacticalDillhole
Same. I'm always looking for both.
Exactly. If you're just looking for a plinker, then you don't need to worry about it an some play won't be noticeable downrange. Like I mentioned to @Voyager1 above, I try to employ each system I fire as a precision system in order to get the best results from it. So to me, that's a huge no-go but that's only because I'm always trying to get the tightest group possible (sub minute and sub half).
With an M4 running M855, the play isn't a big deal. Same goes for an AR10 running FMJ ammo. But if I'm going to run an AR15 or AR10 with some match ammo, then I want the tolerances to be as tight as possible in order to remove them from the (margin of error) equation. All comes down to what you're goals are for the platform. Personally, I don't like to be limited by my equipment as I want to be the thing that limits it.
Can you hit a target at 1,000yds with an AR10 that has a loose receiver set? Sure. You won't be able to do it consistently and will end up just getting impacts by lobbing enough rounds at it. Same goes for shooting thumb tacks at 100yds.
If you're going to build, build it right that way you are covered down the line if you ever want to employ it in a different capacity.
@TacticalDillhole
Same. I'm always looking for both.
Ah, ok then!
I can declare all my rifles to be "plinkers" and I should be in good shape!
0.75 inch group or better averages prone and off tripod given me ability to get a useful percentage of first round hits at 500, 750 and 900 yds on IPSC (2/3) steel with the .308 bolt guns and the 6.5G(18) I have now ... and I think also with the .308 stoner I'm looking to buy.
I'm not (yet anyway) trying to be an officlal sub 0.5 inch grouper or a sub 0.25 inch grouper ... so for me ... the "plinkers" are getting the job done.
I can declare all my rifles to be "plinkers" and I should be in good shape!
0.75 inch group or better averages prone and off tripod given me ability to get a useful percentage of first round hits at 500, 750 and 900 yds on IPSC (2/3) steel with the .308 bolt guns and the 6.5G(18) I have now ... and I think also with the .308 stoner I'm looking to buy.
I'm not (yet anyway) trying to be an officlal sub 0.5 inch grouper or a sub 0.25 inch grouper ... so for me ... the "plinkers" are getting the job done.
For DPMS high vs low, I avoid the issue by using plain tube handguards or matched rails (Aero). Not a big deal for me.
For upper to lower fit, it's far less important than barrel movement when you sling up or load on a bipod. With that said, I have seen "matched" billet upper and lower with sloppier fit than a forged Aero set. If that's still too much slop for you, a set of oversized pins and a tiny adjustable reamer can make it lock up like Fort Knox.
As for forward assist, I like it for hunting when you need to charge your rifle but don't want to make noise by letting the buffer spring slam the bolt shut.
At the end of the day, it's a big AR, most things that don't matter on an AR15 don't matter on an LR308 and billet vs forged is a cosmetic issue. There are much more important things to worry about for function and accuracy.
For upper to lower fit, it's far less important than barrel movement when you sling up or load on a bipod. With that said, I have seen "matched" billet upper and lower with sloppier fit than a forged Aero set. If that's still too much slop for you, a set of oversized pins and a tiny adjustable reamer can make it lock up like Fort Knox.
As for forward assist, I like it for hunting when you need to charge your rifle but don't want to make noise by letting the buffer spring slam the bolt shut.
At the end of the day, it's a big AR, most things that don't matter on an AR15 don't matter on an LR308 and billet vs forged is a cosmetic issue. There are much more important things to worry about for function and accuracy.
I have never seen so much beauty in one photo!I am in the process of moving from badger to spuhr ... I currently have 3 badgers and 5 spuhrs ... ISMS ... reason is flexibility. I can attach all sorts of crap to the spuhrs ...
On the bolt gun farther away, you can see a range finder on the 12 o'clock.
On the stoner 6.5G closer in, you can see a SIMRAD on top and an HPR102 on the 9 o'clock.
These are just examples of the flexibility of the Spuhrs. They even have an NV rail (A-700 part number) I will get several of, once they come back in stock. With the badgers, I can attach anything (including SIMRAD) on the 12 o'clock, but not simultaneously attach other crap on the 3 or 9.
Here's the SIMRAD on top and the ranger finder on the 9 ...
As to OP's question. I built my 6.5 AR10 and if I could do it again, I would just buy an already built set. Look at Grey Ghost or Lanxang. LaRue is also another option.
