@elmuzzlebreak I don't think the Larue has an AGB. And for an 18 inch mid-length system, in my experience, an AGB is required.
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In the Market for an AR-10 (buy or build?)
- Thread starter wigwamitus
- Start date
I must’ve missed the part about the ABG in Op’s Post. But yeah you are right larue doesn’t have an AGB like superlative. You could probably add one on but larue rifles get finicky when you add things.
If you're looking to connect at 8-900 with Federal 175's then is 20" the way to go? Is 18" too short? Would 22 be better? At what point, in your experience does the rifle - set up for daytime and unsuppressed - start to not balance well.
God bless America
All of the mechanical accuracy of an AR is contained in the upper reciever group.
It isnt the same as a bolt action gun with loose action screws. It is the same as a handgun with a loose slide to frame fit.
...that's the same thing lol. As someone who has experienced this first hand on a few different platforms, I'll agree that we are in disagreement.
Are these questions directed at moi or padhome ? If me, I can work on the answers, but they aren't one word answers
Are these questions directed at moi or padhome ? If me, I can work on the answers, but they aren't one word answers
Feel free to chime in, but they're for @padom - sounds like he's built one or two before.
I also read a post by Rudy Gonsoir (sp) recently (can't find it now) about LaRue. He had high praise for them. A few of my friends have had one at work and were impressed. One of the things I'm not fond of is that only their stuff (hand guards) works on the OBR.
God bless America
If I were you I'd go with the KAC SR25 or the new FN rifle. SR25 is guaranteed less than 1MOA but people are saying they're getting .5MOA with the FN's. Cut rifle vs. hammer forged barrel. DI vs. piston. Supposedly the FN's are hard on optics. I farted around with GAP and Larue but neither had exactly what I wanted and weren't willing to make any changes to the rifle at all. This was during a buy scare I think, or after one. Wanted an older SR25 with the URX3 --more like the M110 but with a dimpled barrel. By the time I ordered mine, they quit making it. I could've bought a NEW M110 in the hard case with drag bag, extra mags, all that shit and more for $$$$$. I forget how much exactly but a lot. Came with a Mk4 scope IIRC. I'm sure you can still get that if you ask nice.
I got mine direct from KAC and they gave me a military account and the prices are much better like that if you can do it. Active, disabled vet, etc. I think I had to send 'em a DD214, VA award letter and post ID? Anyway, about $4500 got me the rifle, ten extra mags, the cleaning kit w/bolt, another URX4 tube, a few rails and other keymod parts and a few sets of flip sights. Really a killer deal. Comes with a hard case, not a Pelican but not the usual cheap one that I know you all know what I'm talking about. Spiral bound manual, target, round count book and other cool stuff. You really don't need to order any rails, it comes with a couple. A bipod mount would be nice maybe but you can use a rail for that too, I did. I also got a plastic hand stop, cheaper and much lighter than the steel ones.
The MAMS brake is the titties, that thing works. There are slow motion videos comparing it to the flash hider and it works so obviously well that it makes me sick because I have the flash hider. Maybe one day... But I bet with the suppressor they work about the same. The QDC suppressor designed for it is half the weight and half the length of the old M110 suppressor and has identical suppression. Indexes TDC, fairly light, solid, easy on, easy off, etc. IMO it's the best all around, do it all can on the market. $1500 but one was for sale on here for a long time for $1200; wish I could've pulled it off.
And I know what you're gonna do with it NV-wise so here's the setup, I've posted it before so you've probably seen it but I never get tired of it. I've wanted an SR25 since 1990 when they came out and were expensive as hell with no perks. This thing is fully ambi, designed that way, not an afterthought. Krieger cut rifle barrels. Loooong rail. 8 sided Mlok or Keymod. Proprietary parts throughout, especially the bolt, barrel and gas assy. Mine has 45deg. sights now, I was able to trade a straight set and they don't get in the way of the PVS30, incidentally also a KAC part. So far it's been both accurate and reliable, not a single hiccup. The collapsible stock on a rifle like this grows on you, but the LMT SOPMOD is solid and doesn't wiggle, has a better cheek rest than many fixed stocks. But you can always get one if you want one. I may still do it. The trigger it comes with is on par with a Geissele SSA (not SSA-E). Unless you're gonna swap it with an adj. Hi-Speed, I'd just keep it stock. I did get a Magpul MIAD grip, I just prefer those now.
You see you have plenty of room to mount shit too and if you wanna go SIMRAD that's possible too. Here's a USO LR17 w/PVS30 and still a couple inches to spare, yet not quite enough to fit a flip sight --the 45deg. ones are pretty nice and get the job done. If you notice I have the front sight mounted in the middle in the picture, also a solution. You can always sell the sights that come with it for what they cost new though, or trade 'em. KAC shit retains value, a guy parted out a whole rifle on here it seems and I added the parts up and it was worth more than a whole rifle by a good bit. So there's that. But no way I'd sell mine.
20" cut rifle heavy contour bbl., which I have, 16" cut rifle med. contour, 16" chrome plated cut rifle light contour or 14.5" w/ "integral" suppressor. They all have the long 15" tubes I think. They also weigh less than the old M110 too and URX4 grows on you. Also plenty of room to mount in a tripod even if you have a lot of shit mounted to it.
OH! And they come in 6.5CM now too with 22" bbl.'s so if you're into that sorta thing... The 6.5CM uppers cost as much as a whole rifle though, so probably best to get the rifle in that caliber to begin with I'd imagine. Can always get 7.62 uppers and in other flavors too.
I got mine direct from KAC and they gave me a military account and the prices are much better like that if you can do it. Active, disabled vet, etc. I think I had to send 'em a DD214, VA award letter and post ID? Anyway, about $4500 got me the rifle, ten extra mags, the cleaning kit w/bolt, another URX4 tube, a few rails and other keymod parts and a few sets of flip sights. Really a killer deal. Comes with a hard case, not a Pelican but not the usual cheap one that I know you all know what I'm talking about. Spiral bound manual, target, round count book and other cool stuff. You really don't need to order any rails, it comes with a couple. A bipod mount would be nice maybe but you can use a rail for that too, I did. I also got a plastic hand stop, cheaper and much lighter than the steel ones.
The MAMS brake is the titties, that thing works. There are slow motion videos comparing it to the flash hider and it works so obviously well that it makes me sick because I have the flash hider. Maybe one day... But I bet with the suppressor they work about the same. The QDC suppressor designed for it is half the weight and half the length of the old M110 suppressor and has identical suppression. Indexes TDC, fairly light, solid, easy on, easy off, etc. IMO it's the best all around, do it all can on the market. $1500 but one was for sale on here for a long time for $1200; wish I could've pulled it off.
And I know what you're gonna do with it NV-wise so here's the setup, I've posted it before so you've probably seen it but I never get tired of it. I've wanted an SR25 since 1990 when they came out and were expensive as hell with no perks. This thing is fully ambi, designed that way, not an afterthought. Krieger cut rifle barrels. Loooong rail. 8 sided Mlok or Keymod. Proprietary parts throughout, especially the bolt, barrel and gas assy. Mine has 45deg. sights now, I was able to trade a straight set and they don't get in the way of the PVS30, incidentally also a KAC part. So far it's been both accurate and reliable, not a single hiccup. The collapsible stock on a rifle like this grows on you, but the LMT SOPMOD is solid and doesn't wiggle, has a better cheek rest than many fixed stocks. But you can always get one if you want one. I may still do it. The trigger it comes with is on par with a Geissele SSA (not SSA-E). Unless you're gonna swap it with an adj. Hi-Speed, I'd just keep it stock. I did get a Magpul MIAD grip, I just prefer those now.
You see you have plenty of room to mount shit too and if you wanna go SIMRAD that's possible too. Here's a USO LR17 w/PVS30 and still a couple inches to spare, yet not quite enough to fit a flip sight --the 45deg. ones are pretty nice and get the job done. If you notice I have the front sight mounted in the middle in the picture, also a solution. You can always sell the sights that come with it for what they cost new though, or trade 'em. KAC shit retains value, a guy parted out a whole rifle on here it seems and I added the parts up and it was worth more than a whole rifle by a good bit. So there's that. But no way I'd sell mine.
20" cut rifle heavy contour bbl., which I have, 16" cut rifle med. contour, 16" chrome plated cut rifle light contour or 14.5" w/ "integral" suppressor. They all have the long 15" tubes I think. They also weigh less than the old M110 too and URX4 grows on you. Also plenty of room to mount in a tripod even if you have a lot of shit mounted to it.
OH! And they come in 6.5CM now too with 22" bbl.'s so if you're into that sorta thing... The 6.5CM uppers cost as much as a whole rifle though, so probably best to get the rifle in that caliber to begin with I'd imagine. Can always get 7.62 uppers and in other flavors too.
In the realm of AR accuracy issues, loose upper to lower fit is a very very minor concern and the difference between billet and forged isn't consistent....that's the same thing lol. As someone who has experienced this first hand on a few different platforms, I'll agree that we are in disagreement.
A quick clue, forged receivers come off the forge die as a rough receiver blank, not a final product so all of the dimensions that determine upper to lower fit are machined with a CNC milling center, just like a billet receiver.
An Aero forged set has a pretty good fit in my experience, at most a few thousandths of wiggle, nothing to worry about because anything you use as a rest or a sling is going to pull that tiny amount of slop tight before you pull the trigger. I think mine even have a tension screw that can take the slop out of the rear pin fit but I've never messed with one because it doesn't matter unless you only want to hear your BCG rattling around in your upper when you shake it.
It is nice to have one that locks up like Fort Knox, that's why two of mine have oversized pins. The rest I don't care and I'm not worried about trying to swap uppers and finding a too tight fit.
I haven't looked at the Mega receivers that are being talked about but if they don't have the oversized snout like an Aero M5E1 enhanced, I'll pick the Aero every time and install $20 oversize pins if the slop is bad (it shouldn't be).
Hecque of a deal for sure !!!
I was looking at a used SR-25 with a 24 inch barrel for ~$5k but that won't fit into my budget ... but the 10 mags you got you helps on the budget !!!
How much does that sucquer weigh ?? I'm guessing 25 lbs ...
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As to the "perfect" match up between the upper and the lower ... as I said previously ... it must be an issue .. but is it the first, second, ... 7th ... or 14th issue in the issue stack we need to resolve ?
What were the barriers to me reaching 0.75 inch groups ?
01 - Trigger control ...
Oppose my trigger finger with my thumb and then push from both sides until the trigger releases. Do not trying to synchronize with breathing, unless necessary.
02 - Sight picture ...
02a - cheek stock weld ... guns without adjustable cheek pieces might have a high or low cheek weld, or even a chin weld. I'm using all three and now successfully, since I've be able to conceptualize about all three.
02b - eyerelief ... guns without adjustable length stocks need to move the scope back and forth until it is as perfect as possible.
These are the three things that got me from about 1 inch groups ... to solid sub 0.75 ... both prone and off the RRS tripod ...
What barriers are between me and 0.50 inch groups ?
Is one of them upper/lower match ? Well not for the bolt guns, but maybe for the stoners ?
Do I even need to get to 0.50 inch groups ? It is not an official goal. The official goal for this year is 0.75 prone 1.0 tripod. Already there. So per my priorities, more wind practice is called for. But 0.50 seems doable. So I might move the goal posts.
But my guns are all crap ... none of my guns are factory guns any more (well the pistols and shotguns are, but not the centerfire rifles). So the upper/lower match was not a barrier for 0.75 inch groups for me.
What were the barriers to me reaching 0.75 inch groups ?
01 - Trigger control ...
Oppose my trigger finger with my thumb and then push from both sides until the trigger releases. Do not trying to synchronize with breathing, unless necessary.
02 - Sight picture ...
02a - cheek stock weld ... guns without adjustable cheek pieces might have a high or low cheek weld, or even a chin weld. I'm using all three and now successfully, since I've be able to conceptualize about all three.
02b - eyerelief ... guns without adjustable length stocks need to move the scope back and forth until it is as perfect as possible.
These are the three things that got me from about 1 inch groups ... to solid sub 0.75 ... both prone and off the RRS tripod ...
What barriers are between me and 0.50 inch groups ?
Is one of them upper/lower match ? Well not for the bolt guns, but maybe for the stoners ?
Do I even need to get to 0.50 inch groups ? It is not an official goal. The official goal for this year is 0.75 prone 1.0 tripod. Already there. So per my priorities, more wind practice is called for. But 0.50 seems doable. So I might move the goal posts.
But my guns are all crap ... none of my guns are factory guns any more (well the pistols and shotguns are, but not the centerfire rifles). So the upper/lower match was not a barrier for 0.75 inch groups for me.
I have one LR308 with oversized pins that shoots 3/8 MOA and I have an AR15 mix master with a chrome lined barrel, ok fit and nothing done to improve it that shoots sub MOA. They are very different guns but I don't think a tension screw, oversize pins or an accu-wedge is going to make my sub MOA gun a 1/2 MOA gun. It's much more about ammo quality in my opinion.
It's probably the last thing you should think about when buying large frame AR receivers unless the set you are looking at is particularly bad.
Worst case if you ever determine it's a problem (doubtful) or you just feel like it, buy a set of $20 oversize pins and a $10 tiny adjustable reamer and then you can do a custom nearly press-fit on the pins with zero play, as good or better than anything Mega can do.
If there is anything else to worry about, worry about that before upper to lower fit.
If all else is equal, sure, buy the tighter set but things are rarely equal.
With Aero, you can get upper, lower and handguard that will all fit together quite well and an LPK designed for the lower. That takes care of most compatibility issues beside the buffer setup. Another bonus is that if you are a good shopper, you can usually find Aero parts cheap. I think mine worked out around $350 for upper, handguard, lower and LPK (no trigger, no grip). That's a good value considering that it helps you avoid compatibility issues and the quality is plenty good for me. Seekins is probably nicer but I doubt that translates in to much accuracy as long as the assembly is done properly.
The same thing is true for AR15s, you don't need perfect upper to lower fit or fancy billet receivers to make one accurate.
If you like that sort of thing, knock yourself out but don't imagine that it's going to have any great practical effect. I have a few billet ARs, some shoot better than others but none of it is because of how the receivers were machined.
It's probably the last thing you should think about when buying large frame AR receivers unless the set you are looking at is particularly bad.
Worst case if you ever determine it's a problem (doubtful) or you just feel like it, buy a set of $20 oversize pins and a $10 tiny adjustable reamer and then you can do a custom nearly press-fit on the pins with zero play, as good or better than anything Mega can do.
If there is anything else to worry about, worry about that before upper to lower fit.
If all else is equal, sure, buy the tighter set but things are rarely equal.
With Aero, you can get upper, lower and handguard that will all fit together quite well and an LPK designed for the lower. That takes care of most compatibility issues beside the buffer setup. Another bonus is that if you are a good shopper, you can usually find Aero parts cheap. I think mine worked out around $350 for upper, handguard, lower and LPK (no trigger, no grip). That's a good value considering that it helps you avoid compatibility issues and the quality is plenty good for me. Seekins is probably nicer but I doubt that translates in to much accuracy as long as the assembly is done properly.
The same thing is true for AR15s, you don't need perfect upper to lower fit or fancy billet receivers to make one accurate.
If you like that sort of thing, knock yourself out but don't imagine that it's going to have any great practical effect. I have a few billet ARs, some shoot better than others but none of it is because of how the receivers were machined.
Groups ... for me all groups are shot on non-flat land ... prone is on raw ground, no mats ... most of the time I'm shooting into the sun, in the mornings ... shooting due East ... I shoot 2 sighters and then 6 tree round groups, each at a different 3/4 inch dot. The dots are on a 3 x 3 paper target board and I spread them out so I have to elevation and switch positions etc. And I count them all, even when the equipment fails. I'm supposed to catch the equipment failures with the sighters, but if I miss them and fire a group then it counts.
2 weeks ago I shot my groups in the rain ... and left the 6.5G(18) in the pelican and it had rust on it a week later when I finally opened the pelican. It was still wet .. I've been soaking it in kroil and drying it out every 48 hours and resoaking ... but its been below 32 every hour for 4 days ... and below 10 for many hours ...
Just saying I dont' shoot groups in "labratory" conditions ... and dont' care to ... even shooting groups is new for me ... and it is a bit of a laboratory. But I see it has dramatically improved the hits on the targets at 500, 750, 1,050 ... I'm shooting the 6x6 "face" of thge 500yds target and hitting 11/12 etc. or 100% ... so dots and groups are helping.
But if I can hit 12 inch wide IPSC steel at 900yds with this .308 stoner ... more times than not ... I'm good ... and if I can get .75 inch at 100yds off the tripod I am good (prone doesn't matter much to me ... hard to shoot prone around here). Those are my requirements.
2 weeks ago I shot my groups in the rain ... and left the 6.5G(18) in the pelican and it had rust on it a week later when I finally opened the pelican. It was still wet .. I've been soaking it in kroil and drying it out every 48 hours and resoaking ... but its been below 32 every hour for 4 days ... and below 10 for many hours ...
Just saying I dont' shoot groups in "labratory" conditions ... and dont' care to ... even shooting groups is new for me ... and it is a bit of a laboratory. But I see it has dramatically improved the hits on the targets at 500, 750, 1,050 ... I'm shooting the 6x6 "face" of thge 500yds target and hitting 11/12 etc. or 100% ... so dots and groups are helping.
But if I can hit 12 inch wide IPSC steel at 900yds with this .308 stoner ... more times than not ... I'm good ... and if I can get .75 inch at 100yds off the tripod I am good (prone doesn't matter much to me ... hard to shoot prone around here). Those are my requirements.
If moisture is an issue, you might want to look for a nitrided barrel. The stainless barrels I've abused are not as bad as blued steel but they do rust if you leave them wet. Maybe Cerakote over that. Nickel Boron and Ion Bond seem pretty impervious for internals.
My .02 cents
Barrel is overkill. For the price of the bartlien Bartlen you could get a matched set JP precision Barrel, Lmos BCG, and silent capture spring.
As stated above Wilson combat are match grade for $300 or even a ballistic advantage are good. I run a $200 faxon out to 700 on 12" steel all day with the cheapest Russian steel ammo you can find
get a fail zero or decent BCG.
You are missing some other misc parts.
Buffer tube: strike industris or PWS.
Gas block and tube: JP precision
Muzzle device. VG6
Pistol grip: ergo or hogue rubberized.
I would reccomend upgrading your Safety select and mag release with something like a battle arms.
Also reccomend honing your upper prior to assembly it makes a difference.
Barrel is overkill. For the price of the bartlien Bartlen you could get a matched set JP precision Barrel, Lmos BCG, and silent capture spring.
As stated above Wilson combat are match grade for $300 or even a ballistic advantage are good. I run a $200 faxon out to 700 on 12" steel all day with the cheapest Russian steel ammo you can find
get a fail zero or decent BCG.
You are missing some other misc parts.
Buffer tube: strike industris or PWS.
Gas block and tube: JP precision
Muzzle device. VG6
Pistol grip: ergo or hogue rubberized.
I would reccomend upgrading your Safety select and mag release with something like a battle arms.
Also reccomend honing your upper prior to assembly it makes a difference.
Pretty darn happy with my AR10 build:
Aero precision receiver set and hand guard
Rainier Ultramatch barrel 22” 6.5 creed
JP internals
Delivers consistent results out to 1098 yds so far...
Aero precision receiver set and hand guard
Rainier Ultramatch barrel 22” 6.5 creed
JP internals
Delivers consistent results out to 1098 yds so far...
I believe Mega is a sr25/ armalite pattern as opposed to the more popular DPMS.
There is also something like this
There is also something like this
Haven't weighed it but yeah, I'd guess that, does feel like a stripped 240 or a loaded SAW with a bunch of shit on it if you try to shoulder it!
I did get a killer deal on it. I'm hoping my shit is still good next time I order from 'em. Small Arms Sales and Operations Parts (two sides same business) are the best dealers I know of. Tombstone did have lowers for a dollar or so cheaper last year. Nothing like direct though. KAC does have funny rules though, like they wouldn't sell me an M2HB rail, had to get that on Ebay. Said it was a military only part except I had a military account and dealing with military sales! Whatever. Same deal with getting the rifle with the MAMS --I tried. So glad I got that rifle before the divorce though or I'd still be dreaming about it right now. I'd like a .338LM one day but can't even figure for it right now. I got other stuff to keep me busy for the time being though, I can't complain really, but if I'm not bitching about something it probably means I'm dead.
Not so sure you could build one of these rifles for what they sell for, especially given the proprietary parts. But you know an AR is as accurate as the barrel assy., the rest is more or less about reliability and function. So a Krieger barrel in any other action will still deliver Krieger results, KAC or not. And hell, may be as reliable too if it's built well. For me, JP full mass carriers have been the holy grail to building reliable AR's and if I built an AR10 it'd definitely have one of those in it.
Aero and Mega aren't too far from here. I was invited to Mega's factory once but just never got around to it. Pretty sure they use the same forging. Lots of receivers are made here I think.
Of course you got Oly down the street too. That's if you're really high class. I remember when there were so few AR mfg.'s that Oly WAS considered in along with the rest! Once they carve their logon on that forging, it instantly goes down in value, what a waste of aluminum. That's where I draw the line. And yes, I've owned a couple (more than one!) but have been rehabilitated since.
If you took that rifle back to 1990 it'd easily be light years beyond anything and it'd be worth way more than an SR25. Gotta remember the times sometimes and keep it in perspective I guess.
I built almost all my AR's, just didn't want to build one large frame though --and I admit I'm a KAC fanboy, it's obvious.
The MEGA has a thermo fitting
If your primary target distance is 800-900 yards then yes, I would go with a 20". 18" is not too short though by any means.
Many years ago, I shot a UKD course out to 1100yds. I brought with me a POF P308 14.5" with 175 SMK handloads running 2405fps topped with a SWFA SS HD 5-20x50. I was laughed at by most the day before the shoot being told I wouldnt be able to make hits at distance. I was the only gasser in the bunch of about 30. All bolt guns.
The next day, I was banging steel with 100% consistency @ 800yds to everyone's amazement. Day 2, during the UKD shoot I hit my targets at 1000yds and everyone took back everything they said.
This setup was 100% to 800 and in. Past 800 it was inconsistent but still doable. I would go 18" if you plan to hump the rifle around and shoot 200-1000. If its a bench gun for shooting 800-1000 all the time then go 20 or 22".
If your primary target distance is 800-900 yards then yes, I would go with a 20". 18" is not too short though by any means.
Many years ago, I shot a UKD course out to 1100yds. I brought with me a POF P308 14.5" with 175 SMK handloads running 2405fps topped with a SWFA SS HD 5-20x50. I was laughed at by most the day before the shoot being told I wouldnt be able to make hits at distance. I was the only gasser in the bunch of about 30. All bolt guns.
The next day, I was banging steel with 100% consistency @ 800yds to everyone's amazement. Day 2, during the UKD shoot I hit my targets at 1000yds and everyone took back everything they said.
This setup was 100% to 800 and in. Past 800 it was inconsistent but still doable. I would go 18" if you plan to hump the rifle around and shoot 200-1000. If its a bench gun for shooting 800-1000 all the time then go 20 or 22".
Incorrect, MEGA receivers are DPMS pattern. I have 3 in the safe and Ive built 10+ on MEGA's.
Barrel is overkill? If you want to shoot 12" groups at 700yds with cheap shit steel ammo then shit save all your money and get a Bear Creek barrel. You want to shoot 1/2moa at 700yds with quality match ammo or handloads get a quality, known match barrel.
And hone your upper?? Ive never heard of "honing" an upper? Shit Ive built 100's of AR's, and 30 or more large frame gassers and Ive never "honed" an upper and somehow they are tack drivers....
To each his own, if you have money to buy all the most expensive high end parts, by all means. Even if you can get the same results the for less.
Ive never had that luxury so my experience is making more from less.
Youve never heard of upper honing, lapping, truing? try it, you might like it.
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Oh, some people aren't poor, they would just rather have 5 perfectly good LR308 pattern rifles with optics than two SR25s.
Muzzle device is really a matter of preference. If your gun is in that 11+ lb range, you can get away without one if you would rather not be the guy blowing stuff off the benches at the firing line and testing the performance of all the ear protection.
My 3/8 MOA LR308 was not honed, lapped, thermo-fit or Loktite fit, just fairly snug and a properly torqued barrel nut. Some might need it, some don't.
For sub MOA, I would avoid Ballistic Advantage barrels. It's the Aero house brand and they look nice but if you look at the accuracy results, they don't look so great. Not all bad, not all good but why take a chance? It's not like they are cheap.
Muzzle device is really a matter of preference. If your gun is in that 11+ lb range, you can get away without one if you would rather not be the guy blowing stuff off the benches at the firing line and testing the performance of all the ear protection.
My 3/8 MOA LR308 was not honed, lapped, thermo-fit or Loktite fit, just fairly snug and a properly torqued barrel nut. Some might need it, some don't.
Wasnt talking "all high end parts" we were talking about the single most important part of an accurate rifle, the barrel.
Trying, lapping, honing an AR? Nope, never heard or it. It's not a term or service offered by your top AR gunsmiths in the country either (Compass Lake, Keystone Accuracy, White Oak). Somehow their AR's hold national and world records without this...
Yes, I've heard the new fad of buying tools and trying up your receiver face. Show me measurable before and after data that it actually did something.
I can show you actual data of non-trued/honed/lapped/pixy dust AR uppers that shoot 0.5moa and better. Aero uppers, BCM uppers, MEGA uppers.... The key in all those uppers? The barrels?
Whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Talked to GAP yesterday. They are flexible on the stock and the trigger. The barrel they want to put in is exactly the same barrel I want (bartlein #13 20 inch with slr agb). They are also flexible on the trigger.
From what I've been able to glean from all sources, priorities for me are:
#1 barrel
#2 trigger
#3 enablement of site picture (cheek piece adjustability, stock length adjustability (can also be mitigated by moving scope))
#4+ all else
My primary concern with self-build is getting good barrel to receiver fit as I've never done this. So, I'd like to do it at least once under supervision.
(I am getting the idea that the Kreiger barrels should be on my list, but I know less about them and their availbility, etc. whereas I know more about the bartlein to customer supply path)
I am not REQUIRING sub 0.5 inch performance from this system, though GAP "guarantees" it ... I want 0.75 inches, like I have now. that meets my requirement to hit 12 inch steel at 900yds. Which is 1.33 iphy
A significant downside of GAP is 5-6 month lead time, though I can live with that.
From what I've been able to glean from all sources, priorities for me are:
#1 barrel
#2 trigger
#3 enablement of site picture (cheek piece adjustability, stock length adjustability (can also be mitigated by moving scope))
#4+ all else
My primary concern with self-build is getting good barrel to receiver fit as I've never done this. So, I'd like to do it at least once under supervision.
(I am getting the idea that the Kreiger barrels should be on my list, but I know less about them and their availbility, etc. whereas I know more about the bartlein to customer supply path)
I am not REQUIRING sub 0.5 inch performance from this system, though GAP "guarantees" it ... I want 0.75 inches, like I have now. that meets my requirement to hit 12 inch steel at 900yds. Which is 1.33 iphy
A significant downside of GAP is 5-6 month lead time, though I can live with that.
Maybe i read it wrong i thought he was building a sort of precision ranch gun. Bangin steel at 1000, shootin critters. Just sayin, you could build it for less.
Ive had good luck with JP.
Surely a muzzle device has some benifits??
Lapping. Ive noticed a difference so now i do it on every build. It takes 5min and can only help so its just one of those things.
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What BCG are they reccomending? Are you considering it as part of your #1 barrel priority?
Just to let you know whats out there. JP rifles come with a bolt headspaced to the barrel. And they also make the carrier.
JP Rifles
jprifles.com
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As to muzzle devices, I use direct thread suppressors and I already have them, so don't need another break I would just remove and toss in the parts box.
Yes, this is sort of a "precision ranch gun" Never thought of it that way ...
dots and groups at 100yds mostly in the day
wind practice 500-1050yds day and night
critter control 0-500yds mostly at night
want 0.75 inch groups at 100yds off tripod, already there with bolt guns and existing stoner rifles ...
As to BCG we did not discuss and their website doesn't mention, so, negatif, this is not on the radar as a critical upgrade. I've broken a bolt and mangled an ejector on other stoners ... and I fix 'em if they break. As long as I can get parts that work.
Yes, this is sort of a "precision ranch gun"
Never thought of it that way ... dots and groups at 100yds mostly in the day
wind practice 500-1050yds day and night
critter control 0-500yds mostly at night
want 0.75 inch groups at 100yds off tripod, already there with bolt guns and existing stoner rifles ...
As to BCG we did not discuss and their website doesn't mention, so, negatif, this is not on the radar as a critical upgrade. I've broken a bolt and mangled an ejector on other stoners ... and I fix 'em if they break. As long as I can get parts that work.
My 3/8 MOA LR308 has a $200 (on sale at Fulton Armory years ago) Criterion bull barrel. It worked out far better than I expected.
I wouldn't worry too much about barrel fit, AR uppers are bored straight through so that dimension is probably the easiest to hit.
Truing the snout with a lap or a lathe can potentially improve a poorly machined upper. I've been meaning to turn down a lap to fit the Aero M5E1 enhanced inverted snout and see how true they are. I haven't seen an issue yet and I think that's a function of how uppers get machined. If all the barrel thread work was done in a lathe and zeroed off of the receiver bore it would be pretty much foolproof to get a perfectly square barrel seat but I think a lot get clamped up on a tombstone in a vertical machining center and the barrel threads are cut with a thread mill which will work fine when everything is perfect and increase the production rate but it can introduce different sources of error.
Square is obviously better than not square but most are very close and I wonder how much it matters when the error is as minimal as it usually is.
I wouldn't worry too much about barrel fit, AR uppers are bored straight through so that dimension is probably the easiest to hit.
Truing the snout with a lap or a lathe can potentially improve a poorly machined upper. I've been meaning to turn down a lap to fit the Aero M5E1 enhanced inverted snout and see how true they are. I haven't seen an issue yet and I think that's a function of how uppers get machined. If all the barrel thread work was done in a lathe and zeroed off of the receiver bore it would be pretty much foolproof to get a perfectly square barrel seat but I think a lot get clamped up on a tombstone in a vertical machining center and the barrel threads are cut with a thread mill which will work fine when everything is perfect and increase the production rate but it can introduce different sources of error.
Square is obviously better than not square but most are very close and I wonder how much it matters when the error is as minimal as it usually is.
As to muzzle devices, I use direct thread suppressors and I already have them, so don't need another break I would just remove and toss in the parts box.
Yes, this is sort of a "precision ranch gun"
dots and groups at 100yds mostly in the day
wind practice 500-1050yds day and night
critter control 0-500yds mostly at night
want 0.75 inch groups at 100yds off tripod, already there with bolt guns and existing stoner rifles ...
As to BCG we did not discuss and their website doesn't mention, so, negatif, this is not on the radar as a critical upgrade. I've broken a bolt and mangled an ejector on other stoners ... and I fix 'em if they break. As long as I can get parts that work.
Imo, I would rank your BCG as #2. See my JP edit above.
Also consider the AGB is great for fine tuning but if you shoot mixed ammo you could have cycling issues as pressures differ. You could always just open it up but then whats the point. Its just more moving parts and points of failure. I shot one out recently, turning my semi into a single shot.
For BCGs, I suggest "standard pressure" and use ammo with large rifle size primers.
All the BCG problems seem to come in when you shoot small rifle primers or shoot large rifle primers with a "high pressure" bolt (small firing pin).
I have one JP BCG that was $$$ and several Toolcraft BCGs that were quite a bit cheaper and seem every bit as nice. Nickel Boron is nice, very easy to clean and slick.
The JP stuff is nice but there are many alternatives with similar functionality so you can build an AR that runs like a JP without necessarily using too many JP parts.
All the BCG problems seem to come in when you shoot small rifle primers or shoot large rifle primers with a "high pressure" bolt (small firing pin).
I have one JP BCG that was $$$ and several Toolcraft BCGs that were quite a bit cheaper and seem every bit as nice. Nickel Boron is nice, very easy to clean and slick.
The JP stuff is nice but there are many alternatives with similar functionality so you can build an AR that runs like a JP without necessarily using too many JP parts.
My primary ammo is FGMM 7.62 175gr ... which might be a tad higher pressure than my secondary ammo which is FGMM .308 175gr ... my tertiery ammo M118LR is higher still ... but they are all pretty close in MV ...
22 inch barrel MV of FGMM .308 = 2646
22 inch barrel MV of FGMM 7.62 = 2652
22 inch barrel MV of M118LR = 2660
under recent conditions
I expect to shoot nothing but the FGMM 7.62 175gr once I shoot up existing supplies of FGMM .308 175 and M118LR.
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So the benefit of a higher cost BCG is that I can remove the AGB ??? (trying to understand benefit of higher cost BCG)
22 inch barrel MV of FGMM .308 = 2646
22 inch barrel MV of FGMM 7.62 = 2652
22 inch barrel MV of M118LR = 2660
under recent conditions
I expect to shoot nothing but the FGMM 7.62 175gr once I shoot up existing supplies of FGMM .308 175 and M118LR.
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So the benefit of a higher cost BCG is that I can remove the AGB ??? (trying to understand benefit of higher cost BCG)
+1 on the nickel boron.
Are there any other companies making match grade barrels and bolts as a matched set? Not that Mixed set cant be every bit as accurate, it can. And there are some great BCGs out there.
The way i see it is. Barrel, bolt, gas system, recoil spring is the heart of your rifle. If you could buy it all from one maker who engineered it to work seamlessly. Why not?
Its like if Bartlien made a barrel and bolt combo, why wouldnt you?
My latest barrel was done by Craddock precision. If u send him the upper and bolt you are using you will get a perfect fit. I’m beyond impressed with what they did with my 260 bartlein
I haven't called them yet, so I didn't know about sending them the upper. Other's I've talked to wanted you to send them the upper (or the receiver if bolt) so I'm not surprised.
Looks really nice !
Looks really nice !
2 separate things.
Sorry for the confusion.
An adjustable gas block you can fine tune mostly for reducing the recoil. If you tune it to a certain pressure (suppressed) or a certain ammo. and then shoot it without a suppressor or a lower pressure ammo. Maybe some bulk surplus or something, it might not have enough pressure to cycle the BCG back far enough to pick up another round.
Most stock rifles are over gassed so they can cycle reliably with wide variety of ammo.
A quality BCG is just that. It interfaces with your barrel. Its a critical moving part. You can get a low mass BCG and different spring and buffer weight combinations that all work together with the AGB to fine tune the recoil. But you can end up with a finicky rifle.
He doesn’t need the upper but I recommend sending it (do not send lower, he is not FFL) because with the lack of AR 10 standard, some are tighter than others. The Zev this is going in was extremely tight as it was designed for a thermal fit. The aero may vary. But he will need the bolt. This will ensure your chamber to bolt fit is perfect. I used the JP enhanced bolt.
You dont need a JP Enhanced or High pressure BCG for a 308 gasser. That comes into play much more on 6.5cm/6mm variants.
Get yourself a Toolcraft 308 bcg and your good to go. What a lot of people dont know, is Toolcraft makes OEM bcg's for a bunch of well known companies out there Lifetime warranty and they offer some nice finish's like Black Nitride and NiB..
Get yourself a Toolcraft 308 bcg and your good to go. What a lot of people dont know, is Toolcraft makes OEM bcg's for a bunch of well known companies out there
Lifetime warranty and they offer some nice finish's like Black Nitride and NiB..
Either get an adjustable gas block or variable mass BCG. Don’t do both. I recommend the adjustable gas block a quality BCG and the JP SCS. The JP adj gas block is awesome for two reasons. 1 it’s very low profile and 2 it’s a clamp style so if you use it on a gun with a pinned brake you can still take it off for cleaning and such.
I just installed a JP low pro AGB on a recent build for this very reason. While I have been a huge SA supporter after too many SLR seize ups I am really liking this new JP. Lowest profile agb on the market.
Most barrel makers outsource both barrel extensions and bolts so a matched set really means they check headspace.
My Toolcraft bolts have all headspaced properly with barrels from Criterion, Wilson Combat and KAK so I think things are pretty standardized if you stick with known good sources.
Bolt problems seem to come up when you switch back and fourth between different bolts in the same barrel. People say it is because of competing wear patterns. I just try to stick with the same bolt.
So far I haven't shot any AR (AR15 or LR308) enough to have bolt trouble and some have a 2,000+ round count. Not a torture test and not too close to the 4,000 mark where failures seem to happen in AR15s but still no issues from Toolcraft, Spikes, DPMS, JP, AR15Performance and Young MFG.
I can buy one JP BCG or three Toolcraft BCGs for the same money. I don't see much difference in terms of quality doing a visual inspection. I haven't shot any enough to break one or see any type of wear that is concerning at all. Since I'm not going in to a war zone, my philosophy is save money now and replace it later if it ever wears out or breaks.
My Toolcraft bolts have all headspaced properly with barrels from Criterion, Wilson Combat and KAK so I think things are pretty standardized if you stick with known good sources.
Bolt problems seem to come up when you switch back and fourth between different bolts in the same barrel. People say it is because of competing wear patterns. I just try to stick with the same bolt.
So far I haven't shot any AR (AR15 or LR308) enough to have bolt trouble and some have a 2,000+ round count. Not a torture test and not too close to the 4,000 mark where failures seem to happen in AR15s but still no issues from Toolcraft, Spikes, DPMS, JP, AR15Performance and Young MFG.
I can buy one JP BCG or three Toolcraft BCGs for the same money. I don't see much difference in terms of quality doing a visual inspection. I haven't shot any enough to break one or see any type of wear that is concerning at all. Since I'm not going in to a war zone, my philosophy is save money now and replace it later if it ever wears out or breaks.
Not only that the adjustment mechanism is captured so it won’t fly out on you if you adjust too much.
My bolt trouble was with a 6.5G(18) .. the bolt lug "circle" thingy is thinner on those bolts ... I'm not the only person that ever broke a lug off a 6.5g bolt
that was after 800rds ... but I'm pretty sure the situation was exacerbated by over gassing ... all corrected now ... but a problem for a while ...Similar threads
