In the Market for an AR-10 (buy or build?)

[flyer]

Yes, 6.5 Grendle bolts suck. It's probably a good policy to not conflate any 6.5 Grendle failures with 5.56, 6.8 SPC, .224 Valkyrie, 300 Blackout, 6.5 Creedmoor or 7.62*51.

I have heard that 6.5 Grendle might be particularly vulnerable to out of square barrel seats stressing 1-2 bolt lugs much more due to misalignment between the barrel extension and the received bore.

To me that's more of a reason to lap an upper than for accuracy.

 

[padom]

This is the reason many top gunsmiths wont make 6.5g barrels. They feel they are unsafe and the 5.56 bolt wasnt designed to handle 6.5g.

Compass Lake and Keystone Accuracy are 2 that come to mind just off the top of my head

 

[wigwamitus]

haha, well I'm not trying to go back to 7.62x51 just because I'm bored

 

[Scarface26]

The MEGA has a thermo fitting


If your primary target distance is 800-900 yards then yes, I would go with a 20". 18" is not too short though by any means.

Many years ago, I shot a UKD course out to 1100yds. I brought with me a POF P308 14.5" with 175 SMK handloads running 2405fps topped with a SWFA SS HD 5-20x50. I was laughed at by most the day before the shoot being told I wouldnt be able to make hits at distance. I was the only gasser in the bunch of about 30. All bolt guns.

The next day, I was banging steel with 100% consistency @ 800yds to everyone's amazement. Day 2, during the UKD shoot I hit my targets at 1000yds and everyone took back everything they said.

This setup was 100% to 800 and in. Past 800 it was inconsistent but still doable. I would go 18" if you plan to hump the rifle around and shoot 200-1000. If its a bench gun for shooting 800-1000 all the time then go 20 or 22".

Thanks. Answers my question perfectly.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Either get an adjustable gas block or variable mass BCG. Don’t do both. I recommend the adjustable gas block a quality BCG and the JP SCS. The JP adj gas block is awesome for two reasons. 1 it’s very low profile and 2 it’s a clamp style so if you use it on a gun with a pinned brake you can still take it off for cleaning and such.

Why not both?

 

[_Windrider_]

Why not both?

Collosal waste of money. Use a variable mass to regulate if no AGB. Use a regular BCG if you have an aGB. You could use both but you could save some cash for the trigger or barrel

 

[wigwamitus]

... variable mass BCG ...

Didn't they have those on the FSS Enterprise !!??

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Collosal waste of money. Use a variable mass to regulate if no AGB. Use a regular BCG if you have an aGB. You could use both but you could save some cash for the trigger or barrel

Ive always understood it differently. Care to explain functionally what the mechanical differences and results of either vs both?

 

[_Windrider_]

Ive always understood it differently. Care to explain functionally what the mechanical differences and results of either vs both?

Well if you can regulate the gas you don’t need to change the weight of your BCG. The lower gas pressure will also help reduce that felt recoil. It’s probably just personal pref but it’s overkill IMO to have both.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

It's a rabbit hole and not for everyone but you can fine tune the felt recoil, gas blowback, and cycle rate by a combination of BCG mass, adjustable gas block, buffer spring, and buffer weights.

 

[_Windrider_]

It's a rabbit hole and not for everyone but you can fine tune the felt recoil, gas blowback, and cycle rate by a combination of BCG mass, adjustable gas block, buffer spring, and buffer weights.

My entire gas system is JP, I just use their full mass BCG with AGB and the H2 SCS.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

My entire gas system is JP, I just use their full mass BCG with AGB and the H2 SCS.

mine also, only I opted for the low mass bcg, ironically enough it's in an Aero M5 308. I do regret not going with JP barrel. The LMOS will allow you to dial down the gas even lower and still maintain the same cycle rate or even speed it up. Possibly even reducing felt recoil further. At a certain point it's hard to notice a difference. It gets finicky if I go to far so most of the time I have it dialed to run any ammo.

 

[acudaowner]

I just think its so pretty FALKOR PETRA 300 WIN MAG

the price is a tad high yet for me .

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

On my list for when i hit the lotto.

 

[RobbinsHGray]

I have seen that, yes.

==

I've heard of JP of course ... and have some JP parts ... but have not read up on their rifles, nor seem them in any reviews on AR-10s I've goggled for. So, will have to look harder.

==
==


I was hoping that link was to Frank talkin up ... will hunt for the podcast ... might be behind the paywall ? I will hunt ...

looked at the SP10

big stock I would replace ... extra cost and parts box weight ...
no boit assist
3 pd trigger - I am trying to standardize on 2 pd triggers for my rifles ...
18 inch barrel, I want a 20 inch
muzzle break, Larue, WC and GAP all come without muzzle devices and I don't need any muzzle devices, just extra cost and weight added to the parts box

builders kit for $879 ... now this looks interesting ... if I can find out why seekins uppers and lowers are better than aeros ...

Just about any thread about AR10’s will get around to talking about JP’s. Mine are my favorite AR10’s by far. All sub 1 MOA all go bang every time with any amo. I my mind they are the best.

 

[hitman]

I just had Paul/Craddock do me an 18" Bartlein barrel .308. It will be in next week. I am going to prob. get it out next week for some break in. I had a ton of parts sitting around and was selling, I thought a buddy was buying them all and he backed out right when Craddock posted a smoking one day sale on barrels. I grabbed the Bart. for 500! And I sent him my upper, BCG and JP hand. to install on it. That is the way to go I think.

 

[Jsp556]

MRP-H MLOK 12.5 Upper - LMT Defense

Large Caliber, M-LOK LM308BML1

lmtdefense.com

Mws’ at $2299 kinda ends the search IMHO

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

MRP-H MLOK 12.5 Upper - LMT Defense

Large Caliber, M-LOK LM308BML1

lmtdefense.com

Mws’ at $2299 kinda ends the search IMHO

Strange they put the cheapest chinese stock they could find on such a nice rifle.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If I ever bought another store rifle I would rather go LWRC or PWS or maybe a DD.
https://www.lwrci.com/c-192-repr-mkii.aspx

https://www.primaryweapons.com/firearms/

 

[long range sponge]

KY Gun co. is running a sale. They are back ordered though. Should be able to call and place an order.

 

[Jsp556]

Looked on their site and didn’t see that sale. Link?

 

[long range sponge]

That was a screen shot of their Tax Time Sale email flyer. Looking on their site and even clicking on the link online I don't see them listed. Maybe they withdrew them from the sale.

 

[Jsp556]

Gotcha. I already have one but my brother in law is in the market. Thanks any way bud.

 

[long range sponge]

I'm calling Monday. I'll try to remember to post my findings.

 

[Jsp556]

Thank you sir.

 

[long range sponge]

Just an fyi. The screen shot I posted has these listed as CL. But when I click the ad it pulls up a SS listing with "Sharpshooter" engraving. These are the links I'm directed to.

MWS 308WIN 20IN SS/BLK SOPMOD

MWS 308WIN 20IN SS/BLK SOPMOD

www.kygunco.com

MWS 308WIN 16IN SS/BLK SOPMOD

MWS 308WIN 16IN SS/BLK SOPMOD

www.kygunco.com

 

[wigwamitus]

Update on acquistion process ...

I ordered the GAP-10 about a month ago ... they told me "see you in Sept" ...

But Wednesday they called and said it was ready. My FFL is a 100 mile round trip, GAP is a 200 mile round trip, but I decided to go to GAP, to meet some of them in person and get the gun several days sooner.

So yesterday morning rolled over to GAP and while the gun started out in working condition, by the time I left we had converted it to an "almost working bunch of parts"

==
At one point the sales guy said, "And if you replace the stock with a PRS ... " ... they deliver a rather strange looking magpul fixed stock ... but I replied .. "When I ordered I said I wanted a CTR but they guy said you don't swap out the butt stocks on these rifles".
But, then the sales guy went out back and got came back with the delivered stock and tube removed and other parts he said were for the carbine length solution I was going for. GAP parts shown on right, my parts (I took from another gun yesterday on the left). And he said "Do not use this buffer in the rifle tube, it will tear it up back there".

When I got home, I took one of my stoner rifle lowers apart and got the tube, spring buffer and CTR off it and gave it a whirl.

I could cycle my 7 dummy rounds out of the magazine but only if I manually pulled the charging handle ALL the way to the rear each time. If I tried to lock the bolt to the rear, no round would load from the magazine.

So I investigated BCG not locking all the way to the rear issue.

I removed the carbine tube, buffer, spring, retention pin and spring. Then I can move the bolt back and lock it to the rear in 2 of 2 positions, either in the SHORT position that will not strip off the round or in the FULL position that will.

If I add my tube only ... I can lock to the FULL rear position.

If I add my tube and GAP buffer only ... I can lock to the FULL rear position.

If I add my tube, GAP buffer and my short, light carbine spring ... I cannot lock to the FULL rear position only the SHORT position.

So the combination of buffer and spring are just a hair too long to allow the BCG to lock to the FULL rear position.

So wound up shopping around and getting an aero precision .308 kit with tube, spring and buffer and castle nut and a CTR. Those parts should be in next week and hopefully I can then get past this issue!

==
Otherwise, the gun (with all the non working parts installed) weighs 9 pounds 6.7 oz so it is pretty light. I also ordered an NF 4-16x t3 for it. Normally I try to accumulate needed parts BEFORE a gun arrives, but this time, they took me by surprise, so I am scrambling. I hope to have it up and running and ready for the field in two weeks.

 

[flyer]

That DPMS setup might work but this issue is due to not knowing the ins and outs of large frame AR buffers.

I am assuming that the buffer GAP gave you is not the buffer that they use with the fixed stock. It looks like an AR15 type buffer which you need an AR10 length buffer tube for. AR10 length is also the same as Vltor A5 length.

The DPMS setup you bought uses an expensive shorty buffer in a standard AR15 length buffer tube. It should be ok but if you ever want to tune the rifle with buffer weight, you're going to have to find expensive shorty buffers to do so (or alternatively a JP SCS).

If you want to use the GAP buffer, I know of four manufacturers that offer AR10 length carbine buffer tubes: Armalite (can be hard to find), Vltor (good quality, expensive), PSA (quality not great, cheap), POF (good quality, occasionally on sale).

Of those, my favorite is the POF. It has an anti-tilt feature so your bolt carrier can't tip down and hang up on the front of the tube and otherwise it seems every bit as nicely made as a Vltor. I just ordered two because they had a 15% off sale.

 

[PlinkIt]

I believe the Magpul UBR also has the same length tube as an A5 when the spacer is left out

 

[wigwamitus]

GAP sent me the original rifle length spring and buffer, so the rifle passes all the in house function checks now, but I've decided to sell and switch to a DPMS compatible system so that parts issues are easiest to solve.
I sold my Sig762 for the same reason, too proprietary.

I use 5.56 / ar-15 uppers, lowers due to ease of getting parts.

I stick with rem700 actions for bolt guns (for center fire anyway) due to ease of getting parts.

So same idea for DPMS, ease of getting parts.

==
All my center fire rifles are sub-moa and none have a tier 1 barrel. I wanted to try the bartlein in the GAP, but it won't happen in this case. Have to wait to rebarrel one of my REM700s.

 

[flyer]

The thing is, how likely is it that you'll want to change your buffer and how likely is it that you'll want to change the tube?

On a large frame AR, tuning with adjustable gas and buffer weight are common so I would rather go with a tube I'm not likely to change so I can use AR15 buffers that are available everywhere.

Same reason, different choice. And the AR10 length buffer tube probably works out similar in cost or lots cheaper if you find you need something like a H3 buffer.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Too bad building isn't as easy as slapping a bunch of parts together.

Until you realize that bcg doesn't work with that buffer spring of one of 50 other issues mix matched parts can have.

 

[flyer]

Except there are dozens of people who will tell you what combos will go together and work like an AR15.

My first build went together slow and there was some filing involved but it wasn't because of parts compatibility that had anything to do with the LR308 type platform. First issue: my scope is an oddball with a slanted bottom turret Bell and I used Warne steel vertical split rings on a PRI riser rail. I had to file the rail to get my scope canted properly and then had to change the scope position and rings a couple times to get everything just right which the vertical split made a pain in the ass. Second: I waffled a little on my handguard and bipod setup and had to figure out the best way to mount a sling swivel stud on a DPMS tube handguard. That slowed it down but not by compatibility, just indecision. Lastly: I'm in California so it had to be featureless and I decided to do a funny thing with the Hammerhead grip, I added a monopod there. Not the conventional location but it works after I figured it out and although it slowed me down, nothing to do with the platform again.

Everything else pretty much fell together despite my only DPMS parts being the LPK and the tube handguard and the only "matching" parts being the upper and lower receiver.

The only other thing that required fitting was that I replaced the LPK takedown pins with oversized and extended pins because my pudgy fingertips had a hard time popping out the LPK pins and I don't like needing a punch to open my guns. I reamed the pin holes for a perfect fit but that was purely a preference change although it did eliminate a small bit of receiver rattle doing so.

Would I do it the same now? No, I spent way too much on that gun and I wouldn't use those receivers or handguards again because there are better options but the only things that slowed me down had nothing to do with the platform, it worked as soon as I finished it and it's a 1/2 MOA gun with Hornady box ammo.

The reason why I didn't have any LR308 specific compatibility issues is because I researched and asked questions. It wasn't hard.

 

[wigwamitus]

Definitely my fault for not realizing the Seekins receivers weren't DPMS compatible !!

I will switch from the buy (GAP-10) strategy to the build (Aero Precision // DPMS) strategy and see how it goes.

Thanks all for the input !!

 

[Triple D]

Just make sure to get a good barrel.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

AR10 gas systems are really a trial and error. I had major issues with a 6.5 I put together ended up going with a rifle ar10 buffer and sprinco green spring.

How's the build coming along?

 

[flyer]

Mine only took a couple twists of a set screw to get it to lock open on an empty magazine. Just one step in the break in.

The problems I hear about are short barrels with +length gas.

 

[wigwamitus]

Well the "build" is waiting for the GAP-10 to sell in order to generate funds ...

The original parts list is:

$175	2 pd trigger AR-10	http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust			get weighted hammer version for AR-10
$850	20 inch bartlein ar-10 barrel	https://craddockprecision.com/308-win-bartlein-10t/
$210	AP lower	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-stripped-lower-receiver-fde
$75	lower kit	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-lower-parts-kit
210	AP Upper	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-stripped-lower-receiver-fde
75	CTR stock	https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-risrtm-ctr-combo/
65	buffer kit	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-carbine-buffer-kit
235	handguard	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-atlas-r-one-m-lok-handguard
$265	AP BCG	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-nib

==

But, I fear between the loose I'll take on the GAP and what I can sell in the mean time, there won't be enough $$ to go for the bartlein ... so will have to go with the BA ...

$20	FDE grip	https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-grip-ar15-m4
$270	AP lower	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-carbine-complete-lower-a2-grip-fde
$625	AP Upper	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-20-308-cmv-complete-upper-atlas-r-one
$265	AP BCG	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-nib
$160	SLR gas block	https://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57&product_id=582
$150	Jard Trigger	http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust

==

I already have the stock and buffer kit in hand.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

Mine only took a couple twists of a set screw to get it to lock open on an empty magazine. Just one step in the break in.

The problems I hear about are short barrels with +length gas.

I've heard the same. My gas issues were due to the proof barrel gas port being a few thousandths too small so it would not work adequately with an adjustable gas block. I think they have a disclaimer now but it wasn't there when I ordered it.

 

[SRPowah]

I'm glad someone asked this, because im leaning towards selling my .308 bolt gun and AR15 and using the funds to do a .308 AR10... Looks like it will be more expensive than expected if I want great results.

 

[flyer]

Well the "build" is waiting for the GAP-10 to sell in order to generate funds ...

The original parts list is:

$175	2 pd trigger AR-10	http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust			get weighted hammer version for AR-10
$850	20 inch bartlein ar-10 barrel	https://craddockprecision.com/308-win-bartlein-10t/
$210	AP lower	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-stripped-lower-receiver-fde
$75	lower kit	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-lower-parts-kit
210	AP Upper	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-stripped-lower-receiver-fde
75	CTR stock	https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-risrtm-ctr-combo/
65	buffer kit	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-carbine-buffer-kit
235	handguard	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-atlas-r-one-m-lok-handguard
$265	AP BCG	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-nib

==

But, I fear between the loose I'll take on the GAP and what I can sell in the mean time, there won't be enough $$ to go for the bartlein ... so will have to go with the BA ...

$20	FDE grip	https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-grip-ar15-m4
$270	AP lower	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-carbine-complete-lower-a2-grip-fde
$625	AP Upper	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-20-308-cmv-complete-upper-atlas-r-one
$265	AP BCG	https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/308-bolt-carrier-group-nib
$160	SLR gas block	https://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57&product_id=582
$150	Jard Trigger	http://www.jardinc.com/ar-15-single-stage-top-adjust

==

I already have the stock and buffer kit in hand.

Look at Schuyler Arms for the AP stuff. You'll save money, wait for a sale.

Same with buying a Toolcraft BCG from WC Armory.

I would re-think the buffer setup. Either take some of the money you save and get a JP SCS or get a POF 7 position buffer tube setup (or similar) so you can use AR15 carbine buffers.

I would also try to get an M5E1 enhanced upper with matching handguard.

If you are skimping on your barrel, I suggest using a LPK trigger with a 15 minute trigger job until you can upgrade to a budget trigger like a Larue MBT.

The BA barrels, look at reviews and results. I'm not a fan.

Wilson Combat, Wilson Arms and Criterion barrels are all a step up and probably can be fit in your budget.

 

[flyer]

I'm glad someone asked this, because im leaning towards selling my .308 bolt gun and AR15 and using the funds to do a .308 AR10... Looks like it will be more expensive than expected if I want great results.

$1,100 can build a nice gun if you do some bargain shopping.

I think it's damn reasonable compared to what you had to spend back in 2012.

 

[Triple D]

The BA 6.5 creedmoor barrels shoot. I wouldn’t worry about using them. Mine has delivered numerous sub half moa groups, and a few that were closer to 1/3moa.

Hornady 140 and 147 eld-m factory loads work, and mine shoots 140eld, 142smk and 130AR hybrid handloads very well.

 

[wigwamitus]

I will call craddock and find out what the total cost of getting a barrel from them is. At least it will then be a more informed decision.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Except there are dozens of people who will tell you what combos will go together and work like an AR15.

My first build went together slow and there was some filing involved but it wasn't because of parts compatibility that had anything to do with the LR308 type platform. First issue: my scope is an oddball with a slanted bottom turret Bell and I used Warne steel vertical split rings on a PRI riser rail. I had to file the rail to get my scope canted properly and then had to change the scope position and rings a couple times to get everything just right which the vertical split made a pain in the ass. Second: I waffled a little on my handguard and bipod setup and had to figure out the best way to mount a sling swivel stud on a DPMS tube handguard. That slowed it down but not by compatibility, just indecision. Lastly: I'm in California so it had to be featureless and I decided to do a funny thing with the Hammerhead grip, I added a monopod there. Not the conventional location but it works after I figured it out and although it slowed me down, nothing to do with the platform again.

Everything else pretty much fell together despite my only DPMS parts being the LPK and the tube handguard and the only "matching" parts being the upper and lower receiver.

The only other thing that required fitting was that I replaced the LPK takedown pins with oversized and extended pins because my pudgy fingertips had a hard time popping out the LPK pins and I don't like needing a punch to open my guns. I reamed the pin holes for a perfect fit but that was purely a preference change although it did eliminate a small bit of receiver rattle doing so.

Would I do it the same now? No, I spent way too much on that gun and I wouldn't use those receivers or handguards again because there are better options but the only things that slowed me down had nothing to do with the platform, it worked as soon as I finished it and it's a 1/2 MOA gun with Hornady box ammo.

The reason why I didn't have any LR308 specific compatibility issues is because I researched and asked questions. It wasn't hard.

ok man

 

[stevieb92]

This has been my experience with my BA barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor as well. OP if you're interested, go to the 65Creedmoor forum and search for my threads. I've made quite a few posts documenting my load development with pictures of groups.

The BA 6.5 creedmoor barrels shoot. I wouldn’t worry about using them. Mine has delivered numerous sub half moa groups, and a few that were closer to 1/3moa.

Hornady 140 and 147 eld-m factory loads work, and mine shoots 140eld, 142smk and 130AR hybrid handloads very well.

 

[wigwamitus]

Watched the video ^^ and studied up further on the JP variable mass offerings ... very interesting stuff !! I want to at least try one of those springs in my buddies small frame "pistol" that has feeding issues ... and good to know the BCG gear works in DPMS guns and some of the solutions in AR-10 guns as well.

 

[flyer]

I just got my two POF 7 position buffer tubes and springs.

They just upped their packaging game to a blister pack instead of a plastic baggie.

It's time for me to get all of my lowers together and figure out my buffer weights.

 

[wigwamitus]

... They just upped their packaging game to a blister pack instead of a plastic baggie ...

 

[flyer]

It's a small thing but it might prevent a mashed thread if the box gets handled too roughly.