Inability to shoot well with magnums

[Lowlight]

You are way too low, you are disengaging from the rifle, which means you are probably holding your breath too much, but overall I would have thought it could/should have been worse from your side. it's not.

I have seen much worse trigger presses, so other than a bad, hunched over position, bring your bipod up at least 3 notches, that should not be a reason you have 3-inch groups. There is some jerking of the trigger, the bipod is digging an oblong hole in the ground.

The barrel is super light, limit yourself to 3 shots in a string and try new ammo. I think the gun is not a fan of what you are shooting more than you being the issue.

 

[hic28]

Ok, here it is. Ruffle away.

It looks like the muzzle is jumping a lot, and not symmetrically. How do I stop this? I feel like I have a good NPA. I close my eyes at least twice before each show and when I open I'm still on target. I'm pulling the gun into my should with about the same weight as the gun. I'm loading the bipod by digging my toes in and pushing my whole body forward into it.

Few things I saw
- zero follow through: face needs to stay on the stock, as soon as the rifle recoils your face comes off the stock.
-bipod height is pretty low, might want to raise it up.

Hard to see your breathing, but you want to break the shot at the bottom of a breath, don’t hold your breath. Breath naturally and after an exhale is the bottom. No air should be in your lungs.

I doubt that is what is causing such big groups though, id try different ammo.

 

[IdahoSpud]

You are way too low, you are disengaging from the rifle, which means you are probably holding your breath too much, but overall I would have thought it could/should have been worse from your side. it's not.

I have seen much worse trigger presses, so other than a bad, hunched over position, bring your bipod up at least 3 notches, that should not be a reason you have 3-inch groups. There is some jerking of the trigger, the bipod is digging an oblong hole in the ground.

The barrel is super light, limit yourself to 3 shots in a string and try new ammo. I think the gun is not a fan of what you are shooting more than you being the issue.

First off, thank you. Second... are you saying that something in my gear is off because that technique shouldn't be causing that target I posted above? If this is the case there is nothing left to do and I am stuck. The rifle was inspected by the factory where they shot 3 sub MOA groups with it. The NX8 was returned to NightForce and inspected and had no failures to return to zero and hold it. The rings and base have been reinstalled to the proper torque settings several times. The ammunition I'm using is identical to what shot the 0.4MOA group at the factory and I have tried half a dozen other match grade loads as well as tried working up a hand load. I never shoot more than 3 shots in a string and typically shoot one and let it cool for 5 minutes.


For over a year I have been trying to figure this out and have pissed away well over $1000 in ammo and components.

 

[Lowlight]

The one group on the target looks right, the other 2, the largest could be from the barrel walking because it is hot and stressed, or the ammo is not paired correctly to the rifle

Some of that is you, but not that much of it, the middle group, the smallest looks right for me if you showed me that with your video I would say, yes, because you are disengaging from the rifle you are shooting 1 shot groups, not a complete 3 shot one. When you disengage and fidget, you get multi-shot placement, like split groups.

I looked again, I think you are holding your breath on some shots, which is why you are getting vertical stringing, but i would not blame all that on you.

if they shot a .4 at the factory I would want to see that, but stranger things have happened,

it's not a scope thing, that much I would say.

 

[Lowlight]

I would be changing your entire position behind the rifle and working to get you to stay engaged with the rifle and following through.

There is no such thing as Super Low Prone, you have the bipod way too low for your body type, That whole, "Get low" is for positions, not once you are in the prone. You appear to be a bigger guy, you should be closer to 9" up, not 6" down. That will realign your body better, and raise your elbows.

There is a snatch on the trigger on at least 2 shots, you are doing a whole arm pull, vs a press, one shot was right. That might be yanking the rifle out of position.

If the trigger is too hard that would be another cause, try adjusting it to 2LBS vs 4 or more which it might be. That might be the cause of the jerk vs the press.

The first shot your back never drops, not breathing, the last shot you are breaking at the bottom, so you have a bit of inconsistency happening, but I would suspect that being an 1" of error, not 2" or more.

 

[IdahoSpud]

The one group on the target looks right, the other 2, the largest could be from the barrel walking because it is hot and stressed, or the ammo is not paired correctly to the rifle

Some of that is you, but not that much of it, the middle group, the smallest looks right for me if you showed me that with your video I would say, yes, because you are disengaging from the rifle you are shooting 1 shot groups, not a complete 3 shot one. When you disengage and fidget, you get multi-shot placement, like split groups.

I looked again, I think you are holding your breath on some shots, which is why you are getting vertical stringing, but i would not blame all that on you.

if they shot a .4 at the factory I would want to see that, but stranger things have happened,

it's not a scope thing, that much I would say.

The one group that's small on that target I shot with my SBR AR with an ACOG. The two large ones are what I shot in this video. The barrel was cooled in between shots. Like I said I have tried a tremendous amount of different brands, weights, and charges.

They sent the .4 test target. And I even bought a new rifle and it's still happening. What.The. %$&% is going on.

 

[Lowlight]

What make is that rifle,

Bergara ?

I think the barrel has some stress in it, but you never know without being there. My bet this is a button cut, stress with them is not uncommon.

You should be closer to a 1" 1-5" group, not a 3"+

 

[308pirate]

Ok, here it is. Ruffle away.

It looks like the muzzle is jumping a lot, and not symmetrically. How do I stop this? I feel like I have a good NPA. I close my eyes at least twice before each show and when I open I'm still on target. I'm pulling the gun into my should with about the same weight as the gun. I'm loading the bipod by digging my toes in and pushing my whole body forward into it.

Your shoulders look tense. In fact, all of you looks tense.
Loading the bipod by digging your toes in and pushing your weight into the rifle: muy malo.
Tensing up and giving the rifle an immovable object to hit against is a sure fire way to make it jump on recoil

 

[IdahoSpud]

What make is that rifle,

Bergara ?

I think the barrel has some stress in it, but you never know without being there. My bet this is a button cut, stress with them is not uncommon.

You should be closer to a 1" 1-5" group, not a 3"+

Yes. This happened with a previous one as well. I would say the chance of getting two defective Bergaras in a row one of which was tested and found to be fine is pretty low. That leaves either the shooter, or the optic. And like I said NightForce checked the optic. They said they thought the scope was moving in the rings. However, I have remounted it and had it remounted several times to their specified torque settings and nothing has changed.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Your shoulders look tense. In fact, all of you looks tense.
Loading the bipod by digging your toes in and pushing your weight into the rifle: muy malo.
Tensing up and giving the rifle an immovable object to hit against is a sure fire way to make it jump on recoil

I almost want to start a separate thread for this. If these groups are not 100% shooter error I need to figure out what the problem is, although I do appreciate the corrections on technique.


Honestly in my frustration during the past year I feel like I covered every combination of possible shooting techniques as far as pressure here vs there and nothing was repeatable.

 

[Lowlight]

it could be all you, but I would say it's correctable if the rifle can indeed shoot .4 with that ammo

Find another shooter, someone with more experience to try it

 

[Steel head]

I almost want to start a separate thread for this. If these groups are not 100% shooter error I need to figure out what the problem is, although I do appreciate the corrections on technique.


Honestly in my frustration during the past year I feel like I covered every combination of possible shooting techniques as far as pressure here vs there and nothing was repeatable.

If your always changing your never repeatable, same if you’re tense and cramped.
Listen to Lowlight’s advice about position and honesty I’d look in the online lessons here, they’re and excellent value and his magnum vids are gold.

 

[IdahoSpud]

it could be all you, but I would say it's correctable if the rifle can indeed shoot .4 with that ammo

Find another shooter, someone with more experience to try it

I have been trying but so far the only person I can find is the sniper buddy who shot just as bad.

If your always changing your never repeatable, same if you’re tense and cramped.
Listen to Lowlight’s advice about position and honesty I’d look in the online lessons here, they’re and excellent value and his magnum vids are gold.

Lol I don't change technique from shot to shot. But I have changed between 3 and 5 round groups to see if anything magical fell into place. It hasn't. I've watched a ridiculous amount of videos(all of Tiborosauras rex's long boring sniper 101 series, and countless others). A bunch from here as well, but I just started watching the magnum series yesterday.


Of course watching and doing correctly are two different things but god damn, you'd think at some point after all this time and ammunition something would have clicked by chance from varying this and that. OR at least given me something better than 3"+ groups.

 

[308pirate]

They said they thought the scope was moving in the rings. However, I have remounted it and had it remounted several times to their specified torque settings and nothing has changed.

Did you put a witness mark between one of the rings and the scope's maintube? Try that with a pencil. You should be able to see if the lines separate but can easily erase them once you don't need them.

 

[Lowlight]

Rex does not display a position I would emulate, some people on youtube are not worth copying in terms of what you see.

The information can be okay, most is pulled from known sources, but the demonstrations of technique can be lacking.

if I looked like some guys I would never post them, hell if I get too tired and close my left eye I delete the video for poor form.

 

[seanh]

With all the problems that have been pointed out here it's safe to say that you can't reasonably blame the equipment. Go pay for coach.

Regarding trigger weight ...personally I don't think you deserve to have a lighter trigger right now. That's something that you should earn once you learn to pull the trigger properly. While lightning the trigger will make it go off quicker it's doing nothing but masking shity trigger control.

You can spend a lot of time video in yourself, getting comments here, applying it at home or at the range and it'll be a waste of time compared to a coach that can give you hands-on. What can take several outings possibly several weeks to fix Hands-On coaching can often fix in one session.

The downside to Hands-On coaching is that you don't get nice new equipment to buy (blame).

Edit: find what position works for you. You may have some type of disability or injury that may keep you from getting into the ideal position that is shown in various videos photographs excetera. Take me for example ... broken lower back, jacked up knees and hips, dislocated shoulder, broken collarbone, broken elbows... no fucking way can I get into the ideal position.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Did you put a witness mark between one of the rings and the scope's maintube? Try that with a pencil. You should be able to see if the lines separate but can easily erase them once you don't need them.

I did not. Do you think I would actually be able to see a difference with a witness mark? NF said something like .0003 is enough to shotgun rounds. I don't think I can eyeball that.

Can anyone think of something else in the system? Can the rings be jacked up and not hold despite being torqued properly?

 

[IdahoSpud]

With all the problems that have been pointed out here it's safe to say that you can't reasonably blame the equipment. Go pay for coach.

Regarding trigger weight ...personally I don't think you deserve to have a lighter trigger right now. That's something that you should learn once you learn to pull the trigger properly. While lightning the trigger will make it go off quicker it's doing nothing but masking shity trigger control.

You can spend a lot of time video in yourself, getting comments here, applying it at home or at the range and it'll be a waste of time compared to a coach that can give you hands-on. What can take several outings possibly several weeks to fix Hands-On coaching can often fix in one session.

The downside to Hands-On coaching is that you don't get nice new equipment to buy (blame).

Fair enough. After LowLight and the other guys comments saying I don't have great technique but I shouldn't have 3"+ groups I figured it wasn't all me? If it is that's fine. I just want to be 100% sure it is. I hate not being confident in my equipment. The only thing that could hurt more than pissing away all this money and ammunition is showing up to an expensive class and finding out my gear was jacked up.

 

[Lowlight]

That is a pretty spartan set up,

There is only two things to blame mechanically for that group, barrel or ammo... especially since they checked it, and provided a group that is sub MOA.

The scope would not do that unless it was slipping every round, if you torqued it and don't see sliding ring marks, I would say it's more you than your set up.

We gave the options, barrel, or ammo, the rest is a hard push to blame beyond the shooter.

 

[IdahoSpud]

That is a pretty spartan set up,

There is only two things to blame mechanically for that group, barrel or ammo... especially since they checked it, and provided a group that is sub MOA.

The scope would not do that unless it was slipping every round, if you torqued it and don't see sliding ring marks, I would say it's more you than your set up.

We gave the options, barrel, or ammo, the rest is a hard push to blame beyond the shooter.

Nightforce said they saw signs of the optic moving. I did not see it when it was returned. I sent them an email asking if they were positive it was slipping, or if that was just an assumption because the optic itself was fine. I haven't received a reply yet.


Thanks for the help. I guess I will try to locate a decent training class and see how it goes.

 

[308pirate]

I did not. Do you think I would actually be able to see a difference with a witness mark? NF said something like .0003 is enough to shotgun rounds. I don't think I can eyeball that.

Yeah, maybe not such a practical idea. I did forget that it takes very little movement at the scope to make a noticeable change down range.

 

[hlee]

When chasing down ammo issues, federal gold medal match is nearly universally recommended for the 308win... Is there a “go to” factory load for the 300WM?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Perfect, a member on here contacted me about a match this weekend not too far from me. I'm bringing it along to watch, learn, and have them shoot it. Thanks.

 

[hlee]

Perfect, a member on here contacted me about a match this weekend not too far from me. I'm bringing it along to watch, learn, and have them shoot it. Thanks.

Got a short action rifle? Shoot the match. It’s way more fun and educating than watching.

 

[Halfnutz]

Federal GM Match- Manufacturer #: GM300WM
Black Hills- Manufacturer #: D300WMN1

When chasing down ammo issues, federal gold medal match is nearly universally recommended for the 308win... Is there a “go to” factory load for the 300WM?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Got a short action rifle? Shoot the match. It’s way more fun and educating than watching.

I wish. No way I’d be ready in time. I’m trying to purchase a 556 bolt action now but I’m having trouble locating one that fits my needs.

I need one that’s 1MOA or better, rail on the fore end for an IR laser, and a threaded barrel for my can.

Apparently the Tikka Tac A1s aren’t available here in .223.

 

[IdahoSpud]

Well shit. Uhh?

 

[IdahoSpud]

Took it into a Smith. Definitely a mechanical issue because the shit is sliding all over the place. Why? Nobody knows. New rings on the way.

 

[Lowlight]

What is sliding the scope?

what else can be sliding

 

[IdahoSpud]

Yeah. He popped it out of the rings and showed me all the slide marks. Just like NightForce suggested. I guess out of spec rings.

 

[308pirate]

Took it into a Smith. Definitely a mechanical issue because the shit is sliding all over the place. Why? Nobody knows. New rings on the way.

Despite that, the video we've seen of you shows some fundamental technique flaws. Keep working on that.

 

[Sport67]

Lowlight,

Do you put on any classes close to Ohio?

If not, can you make a recommendation? Im willing to travel for the right instructor.

 

[swtemplar]

Trauma comes with consequences.

I shoot very heavy rifles. My short range sniper is a 470 Capstick. Same 375H&H case as your WinMag, but blown out to .475. I saw a similar problem, at first. I tried a thick sorbothane recoil pad to take the trauma out of the equation. It worked.

I'm extremely recoil tolerant under normal circumstances. Still, that did not stop the effect of unrecognizable trauma on my shooting.

Don't stress about it. Just mitigate it. A soft sorbothane recoil pad is a cheap experiment to see if you are facing a similar situation.

We are predator rex because we find solutions to all obstacles we encounter. Find yours.

 

[airmonkey13]

So, not sure if you loctite your bases down. Looking at your glass the front ring looks a little close to the bell of your optic. Not sure if it is pinching in the web of the bell. That may be another reason the rings aren't tightening down. In adding to lowlight's comments you may want to lift up the comb of the stock so it is recoiling perpendicular to your shoulder. It looks like it is digging into the ground.

 

[Rixy52]

Nightforce said they saw signs of the optic moving. I did not see it when it was returned. I sent them an email asking if they were positive it was slipping, or if that was just an assumption because the optic itself was fine. I haven't received a reply yet.


Thanks for the help. I guess I will try to locate a decent training class and see how it goes.

Hopefully replacing the rings will sort it. Most importantly is don't get discouraged as you can take that to the range with you and you start to expect it to not shoot as you want. I shot 5.56 & 308 for a long time and then went to a HS Precision in 300 RUM. I love it but it took me a while to adjust.
Invest in some decent classes, even if you have to travel a way to get to them. You will get more value from decent coaching than any amount spent on gear.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[EHans34]

I use the Phoenix Precision type A bipod and a CTK Precision monopod on my .300 win mag and have no issues at long ranges. I have the MDT ESS with the full forend and a 26” heavy barrel with the MDT Elite brake. It’s a really heavy rifle with immensely low recoil for a magnum. I only shoot prone at distances, though. If recoil anticipation is, in fact, the issue, I’d just start with finding ways to reduce felt recoil to reduce anticipation. The best things to do to reduce felt recoil would be to increase the rifle’s weight, get a compensator, brake or suppressor, use lighter ammo and/or add a limb saver. I hope I can help.

 

[EHans34]

Hell, it can even be your barrel’s twist rate. You could be shooting 215s out of a 1:13 or something like that. You can check out Berger’s twist rate stability calculator. Here’s the link https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[littlepod]

You're shooting @ 32X, and you're coming off the rifle every shot. Have you confirmed you're parallax free?

 

[Viktor J.]

Well... Many years ago (50+) I shot nothing but varmint rifles. A good friend of mine suggested to try out his Ruger No.1 in 45-70. I replied (out of ignorance) that these old guns were not very interesting, since they were not very accurate. Anyway to make my friend happy, I fired a 5 shot group off the bench. Was I surprised when the group measured less than an inch at 100 yards. I was now hooked on big bores! I first started on low powered loads and then over period of time moved up to heavy Elmer Keith loads which the Ruger No.1 could handle. However, over a period of years, I learned the best way (without hurting myself ) was to fire these big bores standing. What works well for me is to start with mild loads. Then very slowly, increase your charges one (small) step at a time. Next important step. Hold the rifle very tightly, push hard the rifle butt against your shoulder. Over a period of many years, I learned to modify this method for the bench. Which I will not describe in this message. Regarding the use of scopes, be extremely careful with eye relief. With some of these magnums you can really become (severely) injured during the horrific recoil. Shooter Beware! Over the years, I have shot and owned many big bores that gave 1 inch or less groups. Naming a few were 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Winchester Mag; 378 Weatherby Mag, and 460 Weatherby Mag. The one that gave me the most trouble taming was 378 Weatherby in a Delux Mark V action. When I fired that gun a shock wave would strike my face instantly. And the force would make me instantly nauseous. Now that I think about it...Since presently, I am feeling terrible arthritis from shooting all those many big bores. Forget everything previously said and stick with something like a 222 Remington! Yes?

 

[rottenruger]

Is there a big difference in skill between shooting magnums and smaller calibers such as .308/5.56?

I can shoot sub MOA groups with other calibers, but as soon as I pick up my 300WinMag I suddenly suck. Both the rifle and optic have been checked my mfg and are not defective. I've tried multiple match grade rounds, including the exact same one the mfg used to shoot 3 sub MOA groups. It's not the gear or ammunition. It's all been systematically checked.

I've tried shooting just about every way, including a sled, but I mainly shoot prone with a bipod and bag. My groups range from 1"(rare) to 3.5." I've noticed a lot of the time a 3 round group has 2 very close if not touching, and one outlier ruining the group. I don't understand why I can shoot sub MOA with a smaller caliber and then have that large of a difference when I shoot the WinMag. I've had friends film me shooting and everything looks normal. I've accidentally fired on an empty chamber a handful of times and didn't flinch. With other calibers I can tell when I throw a round. On this rifle I can shoot a group that feels like it should be great, but it isn't.

I've got around 500 rounds through it and it's been the same repeated target since day one.

I've been scratching my head for over a year and I don't understand how there can be that much of a difference in my shooting ability. Is this common? Am I missing something?

Get a Bull Bag to hold your rifle in, with a smaller bag of choice to hold up the buttstock. Put the Bull Bag onto 6-9 squares of hard flooring rubber (buy a big sheet and cut it down to size), this will give you a solid base. Rest the Bull Bag on top of this. Get the scope on target, with the rifle sitting free of your contact. ONLY YOUR trigger finger should be in touch with the rifle. DON'T grip the trigger grip. NO OTHER MUSCLE tension being transferred to the rifle. THEN practice your breathing and your triggering. If you've got the rifle/scope set up independently, you will SEE your heartbeat bumping the crosshairs as you focus in, however little contact you have with the weapon. Then it's a matter of shooting between heartbeats. I'm still trying to master this. But Chief at Gunsite Hills really helped me along. Oh, get a level on your scope! Learn to use it. Doesn't matter the first few hundred yards, but when stretching out to 6-800 yards and beyond, it will come in handy.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Well... Many years ago (50+) I shot nothing but varmint rifles. A good friend of mine suggested to try out his Ruger No.1 in 45-70. I replied (out of ignorance) that these old guns were not very interesting, since they were not very accurate. Anyway to make my friend happy, I fired a 5 shot group off the bench. Was I surprised when the group measured less than an inch at 100 yards. I was now hooked on big bores!

I'm considering going vintage big bore as my next thing - Sharps or similar. Just don't know if I want to make the jump into the whole black powder thing.

 

[warthog71]

Is there a big difference in skill between shooting magnums and smaller calibers such as .308/5.56?

I can shoot sub MOA groups with other calibers, but as soon as I pick up my 300WinMag I suddenly suck. Both the rifle and optic have been checked my mfg and are not defective. I've tried multiple match grade rounds, including the exact same one the mfg used to shoot 3 sub MOA groups. It's not the gear or ammunition. It's all been systematically checked.

I've tried shooting just about every way, including a sled, but I mainly shoot prone with a bipod and bag. My groups range from 1"(rare) to 3.5." I've noticed a lot of the time a 3 round group has 2 very close if not touching, and one outlier ruining the group. I don't understand why I can shoot sub MOA with a smaller caliber and then have that large of a difference when I shoot the WinMag. I've had friends film me shooting and everything looks normal. I've accidentally fired on an empty chamber a handful of times and didn't flinch. With other calibers I can tell when I throw a round. On this rifle I can shoot a group that feels like it should be great, but it isn't.

I've got around 500 rounds through it and it's been the same repeated target since day one.

I've been scratching my head for over a year and I don't understand how there can be that much of a difference in my shooting ability. Is this common? Am I missing something?

Ok. So I’ve read through most of the replies.
First off, have you checked and rechecked your scope rail To make sure it’s properly mounted on the action.
Second, have you made sure your action is sitting to spec. That there’s no spacing where the recoil lug mounts into the stock or chassis?
Third, scope, rings etc properly mounted and tightened to spec?
Fourth, have you considered the barrel just might not be capable of sub moa or moa groupings? Factory defect?
Fifth, use a completely diff grip and trigger pull on my Precision guns as compared to my ARs.

 

[FlyGuy11]

Honestly never heard of them,
So it's Meaningless as neither of those Ultra guys are precision rifle instructors according to my reading of their site.

Nothing in those images screams precision to me, but then again, maybe I am being overly harsh.

my students look like clones on the line, there is a reason we do a fundamental eval with every student before they receive the first word of instruction.

Have a link you could share on some basics? I haven't had enough range time lately and need a review myself.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

@IdahoSpud consider putting a muzzle break on there to tame the recoil.

 

[Lowlight]

Have a link you could share on some basics? I haven't had enough range time lately and need a review myself.

you mean like a link to the online training on here ?

 

[littlepod]

Have a link you could share on some basics? I haven't had enough range time lately and need a review myself.

I'd pay the $15 and do the online training section.

 

[walt willis]

Tip: Natural point of aim with five pounds down directly under the gun and five pounds pulled back and then move only you body to adjust your windage.
The frequency created by the weight and speed of the cartridge load must be adjusted to match just as you would do for an antenna on a HAM radio. It helps to bench rest for this testing. If you still want to play sniper you should be able to first shoot sub MOA groups. Remember this is no video game with a reset button. You either win or you die!

 

[Lowlight]

Dude, I hope that image is not your signature, that is beyond obnixious and will be removed.

 

[OG10]

Are you the same guy from londrange hunting forum ? 31 pages of "is my Bergara Bergarbage " ?

 

[FlyGuy11]

you mean like a link to the online training on here ?

Haven't been on in a while; thank you. I'll check it out.