Inconsistent seating depth. What’s my problem?

[oxin21]

Making a new load for a rifle with a new set of Hornady custom grade dies in 6.5CM. Not the best, but I was able to find them in stock.

On my first 25 rounds I have over .010 of variance between cartridge length measured from the OGIVE.

My die is set up as the instructions say in a single stage RCBS. I’m using the correct shell holder, and primers are seated fully. The projectiles themselves are pretty consistent when measured and the brass is brand new and sized. Finally, it doesn’t seem like the tip of the 140gn BTHP
is hitting the seating stem at all.

Any ideas or help? I talked to Hornady and they didn’t have anything else to try.

 

[bghartm]

What calipers are you using? Do you normally have consistent seating depths with other cartridges?

You could always check 0 on your caliper for every measurement to see if something is changing on your caliper.

 

[Newbie2020]

I had up to 0.011” range in OTB using Nosler 140 gr RDFs. I switched to Berger 130 gr VLDs and the variance dropped to 0.003”

I have some Nosler 130 gr RDFs I want to check next. Hopefully it was just a single lot issue.

 

[oxin21]

What calipers are you using? Do you normally have consistent seating depths with other cartridges?

You could always check 0 on your caliper for every measurement to see if something is changing on your caliper.

Frankfort arsenal calipers. They’re measuring consistent at least.
Other loads on this press have been very consistent, but this is my first time loading 6.5.

 

[XLR308]

You need to have a good feel and be very consistent when measuring.
Take the same round and measure it ten times, when you get the same measurement ten times you know you arent getting any variation due to your technique.
Varying neck tension can also have an impact on slight changes in length.

 

[oxin21]

You need to have a good feel and be very consistent when measuring.
Take the same round and measure it ten times, when you get the same measurement ten times you know you arent getting any variation due to your technique.
Varying neck tension can also have an impact on slight changes in length.

Yep trying my best to be consistent. And all my other loads have been consistent enough for me, but 0.010 just seems like way to much.

 

[XLR308]

Yep trying my best to be consistent. And all my other loads have been consistent enough for me, but 0.010 just seems like way to much.

The Honady dies are in my opinion higher quality than the price tag and i have many sets of them.
I think part of your issue may be the new brass and varied neck tension.
Just for a quick experiment try lubing the inside of the necks with graphite or something powder safe, i prefer the Lee sizing paste and just run the expander ball into and out of tne necks then seat 10 bullets and measure those.
If your consistency improves you have your answer.

 

[oxin21]

The Honady dies are in my opinion higher quality than the price tag and i have many sets of them.
I think part of your issue may be the new brass and varied neck tension.
Just for a quick experiment try lubing the inside of the necks with graphite or something powder safe, i prefer the Lee sizing paste and just run the expander ball into and out of tne necks then seat 10 bullets and measure those.
If your consistency improves you have your answer.

Yep I actually went ahead and sized all of them after the first couple were inconsistent. No luck there either.

 

[XLR308]

Yep I actually went ahead and sized all of them after the first couple were inconsistent. No luck there either.

Understood, try what i was explaining but you need to have the inside of the necks lubed and of consistent dimension and a clean load chamfer for the bullet to slide past.
New or used brass that is to clean can be sticky when seating a bullet.
If you are using new Lapua brass the necks usually have way to much neck tension to begin with.

 

[oxin21]

Understood, try what i was explaining but you need to have the inside of the necks lubed and of consistent dimension and a clean load chamfer for the bullet to slide past.
New or used brass that is to clean can be sticky when seating a bullet.
If you are using new Lapua brass the necks usually have way to much neck tension to begin with.

Got it. I see what you’re saying now. I’ll give that a shot.

 

[charnicus]

What XLR said. I dunno about lubing the inside of the necks. I’ve personally never done that. Except maybe when running a mandrel through. I’ve switched to using isopropyl for that and it works really well.

 

[RickyK]

I went to Berger and cut the variance in half .

 

[XLR308]

What XLR said. I dunno about lubing the inside of the necks. I’ve personally never done that. Except maybe when running a mandrel through. I’ve switched to using isopropyl for that and it works really well.

Lubing the inside of necks reduces seating force, makes the expanding op smoother and more consistent if you are using an expander die or the button on a sizing die.
It also prevents bullets from welding in the necks of ammo that has sat for a long time.
I have pulled down rifle ammo that had been loaded for 10-15 years with no issues.
Not sure why i said graphite meant to say mica, the lee paste is the best ive used and will not contaminate powder.

 

[orkan]

@oxin21 are you noticing that when you pull the handle on your press during bullet seating that some are seating easier than others? Some require more force than others?

The causes of this will require a deep dive into annealing, neck turning, and virtually every other aspect of component analysis or brass prep. Suffice it to say if you're feeling a variance during seating, then it will for sure show up on a measurement. This is the basic argument for culling into lots during bullet seating.

Deep dive to the highest levels of the discipline to really explain it all.

 

[oxin21]

Lubing the inside of necks reduces seating force, makes the expanding op smoother and more consistent if you are using an expander die or the button on a sizing die.
It also prevents bullets from welding in the necks of ammo that has sat for a long time.
I have pulled down rifle ammo that had been loaded for 10-15 years with no issues.
Not sure why i said graphite meant to say mica, the lee paste is the best ive used and will not contaminate powder.

The lube worked! Did another 25 real quick with 2thousands of variation. That’ll work for what I’m doing. Thanks so much!

 

[oxin21]

@oxin21 are you noticing that when you pull the handle on your press during bullet seating that some are seating easier than others? Some require more force than others?

The causes of this will require a deep dive into annealing, neck turning, and virtually every other aspect of component analysis or brass prep. Suffice it to say if you're feeling a variance during seating, then it will for sure show up on a measurement. This is the basic argument for culling into lots during bullet seating.

Deep dive to the highest levels of the discipline to really explain it all.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Enjoying learning about precision reloading.

 

[oxin21]

@oxin21 are you noticing that when you pull the handle on your press during bullet seating that some are seating easier than others? Some require more force than others?

The causes of this will require a deep dive into annealing, neck turning, and virtually every other aspect of component analysis or brass prep. Suffice it to say if you're feeling a variance during seating, then it will for sure show up on a measurement. This is the basic argument for culling into lots during bullet seating.

Deep dive to the highest levels of the discipline to really explain it all.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Enjoying learning about precision reloading.

 

[charnicus]

Lubing the inside of necks reduces seating force, makes the expanding op smoother and more consistent if you are using an expander die or the button on a sizing die.
It also prevents bullets from welding in the necks of ammo that has sat for a long time.
I have pulled down rifle ammo that had been loaded for 10-15 years with no issues.
Not sure why i said graphite meant to say mica, the lee paste is the best ive used and will not contaminate powder.

I can’t say I’ve thoroughly researched it but I’ll have to check out the Lee Paste. I’ve never been impressed with the graphite lube such as the typical Redding stuff. I just blindly assumed anything other than carbon left in the necks with regards to bullet seating wasn’t ideal.

 

[XLR308]

I can’t say I’ve thoroughly researched it but I’ll have to check out the Lee Paste. I’ve never been impressed with the graphite lube such as the typical Redding stuff. I just blindly assumed anything other than carbon left in the necks with regards to bullet seating wasn’t ideal.

I have tried several different types over the years but allways came back to the lee paste.
The mica worked ok for case necks but i ended up giving it to someone else.
I dont reload near the volume as some around here so the paste is good for me and have never had a stuck case or dented shoulders using it.
If i was loading a huge volume i would most likely try an alcohol lanolin spray or something similar.
I slso use the lee paste tor turning necks and it works extreamly well for that.

 

[Doug k 042414]

I’m no expert, but some of my variances can be traced back to other operations. What sizing, I know that I have roughly .001-.0015”. I check the shoulder bump again after seating primers. This allows me to seat primers to a gnats ass degree of precision. If the primer doesn’t move, I size one more time. This is just to remove any spring back. I have also heard that the 6.5 rdfs are a nightmare for lot consistency. Again, this is just what I heard. The 175gr .308 rdfs have been great. But the 6mm 115 gr are the worst preforming bullet I have seen for precision shooting.

I use a lot of Berger’s (love em) and eld-m. I roughly get to .002” of consistency when seating and refine from there. I have run into seating inconsistencies when loading RL-16 compressed loads in my .260. Obviously, compressing a load will cause the bullet to travel less into the casing.

I think there is some validity in the neck tension comments too. Have you thought about grabbing a full length bushing die (when you can find them again)? I grabbed a set about a month ago and.... god I was missing out for the past few years. Consistency like you wouldn’t believe. I hope some of this helps and is not me just rambling

 

[charnicus]

I have tried several different types over the years but allways came back to the lee paste.
The mica worked ok for case necks but i ended up giving it to someone else.
I dont reload near the volume as some around here so the paste is good for me and have never had a stuck case or dented shoulders using it.
If i was loading a huge volume i would most likely try an alcohol lanolin spray or something similar.
I slso use the lee paste tor turning necks and it works extreamly well for that.

Would you have to worry about the alcohol lanolin contaminating powder or being left on the cases afterwards?

 

[XLR308]

Would you have to worry about the alcohol lanolin contaminating powder or being left on the cases afterwards?

Not sure i havent ever used it but i know many on this forum do and really like it.
The alcohol is just a suspension and delivery fluid that evaporates away after application.

 

[300winemag]

I rotate the brass twice as the bullet is pushed in to help concentricity, but when the bullet is in the caliper, using a bullet comparator to measure base to ogive, wiggle the bullet around a bit till you get the shortest measurement. That eliminates some length variables and the first number that shows up always changes as you get it into position.
Bles

 

[charnicus]

Not sure i havent ever used it but i know many on this forum do and really like it.
The alcohol is just a suspension and delivery fluid that evaporates away after application.

I had bought a couple bottles of each to make my own for sizing. I really like the Redding sizing wax and never messed with the other.

 

[918v]

I can’t say I’ve thoroughly researched it but I’ll have to check out the Lee Paste. I’ve never been impressed with the graphite lube such as the typical Redding stuff. I just blindly assumed anything other than carbon left in the necks with regards to bullet seating wasn’t ideal.

Did u apply the graphite correctly?

 

[charnicus]

Did u apply the graphite correctly?

I followed the instructions so I would imagine so.

 

[1J04]

Seems you found your issue OP. Good. Just as an FYI though, I'm wondering if you stripped the Dies when you got them and gave them a good cleaning, always a good idea. And as stated here and there, the Mica/Graphite works excellent.

And when you're resizing and/or bullet seating I always twist my cases 2 or 3 times, depending on Die Set, to get as close as possible the same seating depths and concentricity. Always a good idea to run your new brass through either a mandrel or your sizer button ro round out necks/mouths and hopefully close to the same neck tension. Just be consistent in what ya do.

 

[918v]

I followed the instructions so I would imagine so.

Following instructions does not always yield the best results. What did you do exactly?

 

[charnicus]

Utilizing the media applicator and recharge as necessary. A couple dips. I’ve also just dipped the mandrel in and reapplied as necessary.

 

[918v]

I don’t think what you did applied enough graphite to the neck. The necks should look sooted like this:

 

[918v]

In order to get that much graphite on the case I had to remove 1/3 of the ceramic media and shake the hell out of the container. But now bullets seat smooth as butter even in annealed necks.

 

[Scttschnd]

Check the seating stem if you’ve loaded a lot
Possible it’s cracked and giving inconsistent seating
Quick look is worth confirming
I’ve been very pleased with Hornady match dies for 6.5cm thus far

 

[charnicus]

I don’t think what you did applied enough graphite to the neck. The necks should look sooted like this:

That’s how mine look. I too removed some of the beads.

 

[f>b25]

I probably missed info in the thread, but crushing powder could cause seating inconsistencies.

 

[918v]

That’s how mine look. I too removed some of the beads.

So how did the graphite fail you? With that much graphite on the neck the bullets seated smoothly didn’t they?

 

[charnicus]

Never said it failed me. Said I wasn’t impressed.

 

[918v]

So what’s better for this task?

 

[charnicus]

I like using isopropyl personally for new brass. Fired brass I don’t use anything.

 

[918v]

What does isopropyl do to the brass and bullet?

 

[charnicus]

Lubricates the mandrel for expanding the neck on new brass.

 

[918v]

Wax on brass not enough to lubricate the mandrel?

 

[Howland]

My precision reloading is in .338LM. I am using Hornady Match Grade dies. I'm perfectly happy, especially at the price point.

I am using the 285 ELD-M, which gives good accuracy. I took a box of projectiles and measured length and base to ogive and found slight dimensional variations which would lead to CBTO variations similar to what you see if I made no adjustments to the seating stem.

When doing seating depth testing, I back the seating stem out to about 0.010" longer than target, measure, then adjust down exactly how much I need to hit target. For seating depth testing, I wanted to keep +/- 0.001" from target CBTO. I found if I was 0.002" too long, I would turn down the seating stem that much but it wouldn't move the bullet. Turn it down another 0.002" and it still wouldn't move. Go one more thousandth and it moves the whole 0.005".

The learning was that very slight variations in bullet profile within one style or lot are causing this but that slight variations in seating force required also contributes.

I am fortunate that my seating depth node is 0.020" wide. I could target the center and just run with that but I am too OCD for that. I still seat, measure, fine adjust then run it through the seating die one last time. I'd really rather be shooting.

Some here have noted finding significantly lesser dimensional variations in other brands of projectiles. I also tried the 300 grain A-Tip and measured roughly one third less variation in all dimensions but they still don't shoot as well, probably because it needs to jump 0.140" to fit in the magazine, where the ELD-M only needs 0.080" jump.

Trying a different bullet could help, as might using a dry lube in the neck or using a seat, measure, adjust, seat process. Let your target tell you whether you need that +/- 0.001".

 

[Islas82]

Not trying to hijack the OPs thread but also dont want to start another one and get shit on for “not using the search too”, anyway am having similar issues with seating bullets am using whidden dies and Hornady BTHP (6.5 CM) am new to reloading and I have other projectile options (berger HT and A-tips) but wanted to start with the cheaper stuff first. I am using new Lapua brass at the moment and using a mandrel for neck consistency of 2 thousands, I am not using any type of lube though so I will give that a shot. Am getting around the same variance as the OP.

 

[jac68984]

If you're looking for a bit of a short cut, I've had good results throwing bullets in a ziplock baggie, spraying them liberally with Hornady One Shot, mixing them in the bag to get them nice a lubed up, throwing them in a bin to dry, and then loading. Also, if you are using stainless media or ultrasonic methods to clean brass, you might think about throwing them in a vibratory tumbler for a few mins before you seat the bullets. Stainless and ultrasonic can get the brass a bit too clean IMO. And vibratory tumbler adds some residual dust, carbon to the internal case neck without creating other issues. If I go this route, it's typically with primed brass so I don't have to worry about corn cob plugging the flash hole.

 

[orkan]

If you're looking for a bit of a short cut, I've had good results throwing bullets in a ziplock baggie, spraying them liberally with Hornady One Shot, mixing them in the bag to get them nice a lubed up, throwing them in a bin to dry, and then loading. Also, if you are using stainless media or ultrasonic methods to clean brass, you might think about throwing them in a vibratory tumbler for a few mins before you seat the bullets. Stainless and ultrasonic can get the brass a bit too clean IMO. And vibratory tumbler adds some residual dust, carbon to the internal case neck without creating other issues. If I go this route, it's typically with primed brass so I don't have to worry about corn cob plugging the flash hole.

Here’s a thought...
Just use vibratory tumbler to begin with. Don’t use stainless at all.

 

[Snuby642]

I run new brass through the same steps as fired except the pockets.
I started running everything on a mandrell and it helped every load even 223 plinkers.

The hornady bullets don't seem as consistent as Sierra or Berger's.

Interested in trying the alcohol lube for the mandrell. Could you expand (lol) on technic?

Lubricates the mandrel for expanding the neck on new brass.

 

[charnicus]

Yeah, I fill a little cup with isopropyl and wet a qtip then run that inside the neck.

 

[Precision Underground]

If you need to lube necks what you really need to do is stop wet tumbling. Wet tumbling adds all kinds of steps and issues and I can’t find a single reason to do it other than shiny brass.

 

[Snuby642]

Thanks. Just wanted to know if any special juju.
That will let me do them after tumbling post sizing without a mess.

One less tumble is a time saver.
Had tried grafite and it works but I always seem to get it smeared everywhere, one small speck is all it takes to make a mess on hands clothes and bench if you're not paying attention.

 

[Sgtsideways]

Here’s a thought...
Just use vibratory tumbler to begin with. Don’t use stainless at all.

So exactly what is the problem with using ss?