Gunsmithing Input on what happened to this brass...

[Fenix Mike]

I know, im going to get flamed for this, but had a catastrophic failure and working with the gun company, but thought id get some input on the casing from the shot. Im probably going to send it to a professional along with whats left of the rifle since the company is giving me the run around, but this is the 20th round fired from the rifle on an otherwise new rifle. It was a hand load from a friend who was shooting them out of his remington 700p 338 just fine and apparently one found its way into my rifle and it didnt agree so well. According to him, the load was Lapua brass, 96 gr of H1000, HPBT 250 gr bullet.
Any help would be appreciated, especially if you have a shop that deals with bolt action rifles and might be able to do a full analysis of the rifle to determine the failure. So far it sucks that im out about $5500 between the rifle and optics, and only made it to the range once.

Ive had a couple local shops look at it already and the consensus was chamber failure, but the gun company insists it was the ammo and their rifle was fine.

 

[deadly0311]

Looks like some serious over pressure. I highly doubt the chamber failed, you are honestly going to be shit out of luck with the gun company because it was a reloaded round. I think you just learned a very very expensive lesson about shooting other peoples reloads. On the bright side at least you still have your hand and life.

 

[Fenix Mike]

The part I was curious about is if it was over pressure, why is the neck of the brass folded back inside?

 

[milo 2.0]

The part I was curious about is if it was over pressure, why is the neck of the brass folded back inside?

That's a valid question for most of us novices!
Pics of the gun?

Oh, sorry, glad you'r OK.

 

[seanh]

just a guess...given the long throats of a 700, it's possible that when the bullet entered the lands there was enough of a delay to cause a pressure spike that could have worked it's way around the brass.

What gun did your buddy have?

 

[xs hedspace]

The neck is probably folded back from the chamber blowout relieving pressure when the bullet was partway down the barrel, and the barrel pressure taking the path of least resistance, backwards. The last time I fired a friends reloads, it was some 357 mag cast bullet loads, and they leaded up the barrel after 4 shots-dumped the rest. I guess the receiver went south, too, if the chamber blew out. Bummer, bro.

 

[matthias]

What does the rifle look like?

 

[Fenix Mike]

just a guess...given the long throats of a 700, it's possible that when the bullet entered the lands there was enough of a delay to cause a pressure spike that could have worked it's way around the brass.

What gun did your buddy have?

he had a Remmy 700P

 

[Fenix Mike]

What does the rifle look like?

barrel is split down the middle, most of whatever was inside the chamber is now inside my optics. Both are 100% ruined with nothing salvagable.

 

[jbailey]

You sure it was 96gr of H1000 and not 96gr of some pistol powder?

 

[sib1948]

Just glad you were not injured! Someone's watching out for you. Damn shame about you rifle and optic.

 

[seanh]

there could be a flaw in the barrel material but it would take having a metallurgist section, polish and examine the grain structure to find out.

I'd say your choices are fairly limited in this case. Either eat it and call it a learning experience...I'd do this as a last choice, higher an attorney that has knowledge of the firearms industry to deal with Remington, find a metallurgist that can prove the barrel had a flaw or deal with Remington directly yourself and trust that they will help.

what caused it? Maybe the prior round didn't exit the barrel? Either a flaw in the material or a bad reload...doubt a chamber would cause that type of issue. If it was too tight the cartridge wouldn't chamber and unless the chamber was significantly oversized the brass would just flow to match the chamber, however this should be obvious. If you had cleaned the rifle just prior to shooting, maybe a cleaning patch was left in.

Do you have any of your once fired brass? If so, measure it at the mouth, shoulder, base and compare it to what the standard specs are.

Almost forgot about this...cleaning rod left in the barrel, it's happened a number of times.

 

[MarinePMI]

Definitely looks like an obstruction of some sort in the barrel (IMHO). Glad you're all right after this incident...

 

[MWM-5150]

Mike,

Glad you're okay. Sorry to hear about your rig getting trashed. That's a catastrophic bummer.

Just for our info, Im just trying to gain some clarity. Your friend was shooting the Rem 700 338. What rifle were you shooting? Also, whats your optic? Any chance they will warranty the damage?

 

[MtnCreek]

Looks like massive over pressure. The brass flowed into the ejector hole before the chamber gave way. Glad you’re OK. You know us voyeurs world like to see a picture of the rifle.

Edit:
Over pressure, but as others stated, that could also be caused by barrel obstruction. Cleaning between shots to brake it in? Otherwise, I’d be talking to my buddy about his handloads.

Really sorry to hear.

 

[Three Guns]

First, let me say that I am very glad that you were not hurt. You could have easily been a statistic.

It is very difficult to help diagnose what happened with the limited amount of detail that you provided.

Had you shot your buddy's load previously? What velocity was it clocking at in YOUR rifle?

Did you chamber this round and then unload it before finally firing it? I have seen guys that when they take a break from firing with a round loaded, they will lift the bolt and retract it just a little bit to disenage the firing mechanisim without completely unloading. (Think momentary distraction while in the prone when you just look over to answer a question without getting up) If the round was loaded long it might have stuck the bullet in the throat and jammed the case neck around when you went back to chamber it.

Honestly, we need to see the rifle. This is a post-mortum for the entire system; rifle and ammo.

Don't take this last part as a swipe at you but how long have you been shooting big rifles like this? How long has your buddy been reloading big rounds? Have you seen his reloading set up? Is it neat and organized or does it look like my teenager's room with shit everywhere?

It is a pain in the ass to type a complete recreation of what happened, but you are the one that asked the Hide for our opinion of what happened. If you want help, you have to give more details.

For what it is worth, I have probally done a dozen investigations like this on either artillery or small arms ranges. You have piqued my curiousity.

Good luck,

Guns

 

[Fenix Mike]

You sure it was 96gr of H1000 and not 96gr of some pistol powder?

I have a few more rounds from him that he left in my bag, I may go down to dillon this weekend and pull a few apart. I sold all my reloading stuff last year and never did anything larger than 308, so my experience is limited in this round. He swears up and down these are the same rounds that went through his rifle so im going to double check to make sure.

 

[Fenix Mike]

there could be a flaw in the barrel material but it would take having a metallurgist section, polish and examine the grain structure to find out.

I'd say your choices are fairly limited in this case. Either eat it and call it a learning experience...I'd do this as a last choice, higher an attorney that has knowledge of the firearms industry to deal with Remington, find a metallurgist that can prove the barrel had a flaw or deal with Remington directly yourself and trust that they will help.

what caused it? Maybe the prior round didn't exit the barrel? Either a flaw in the material or a bad reload...doubt a chamber would cause that type of issue. If it was too tight the cartridge wouldn't chamber and unless the chamber was significantly oversized the brass would just flow to match the chamber, however this should be obvious. If you had cleaned the rifle just prior to shooting, maybe a cleaning patch was left in.

Do you have any of your once fired brass? If so, measure it at the mouth, shoulder, base and compare it to what the standard specs are.

Almost forgot about this...cleaning rod left in the barrel, it's happened a number of times.

It wasnt a Remington rifle, sorry if it sounded like it was. I have the prior shot on video hitting steel at 1000m, and I also have a video of the round I fired that blew the rifle up. Neither of these will be posted unless the company decides to tell me to pound sand and I cant get a resolution that doesnt involve thousands invested in testing, attorneys fees and no guaranteed outcome.
No cleaning rod, this was the first time the rifle was fired and I was using a bore snake every few rounds and between cooling periods.
I sent 10 of the 20 pieces of brass back to the gun company as they requested, I have 10 more though. One of the shops I had examine the brass said it looked inconsistent at the shoulder but we didnt take any exact measurements. One specialist stated possible chamber issue, another thought it could have been head space. The gun grouped like crap with the PPU I used to break it in but I figured that was just the ammo. Still, my 308 bolt gun groups sub MOA on factory ammo, and the best I was seeing with this was 2 inches @ 100 yards. Could have also been because it was brand new though and not broken in yet.

 

[matthias]

The rifle really blowing up like you explained points like many others have said to a bore obstruction. I had my savage 338 Lapua give me trouble clambering a round first shot out of the barrel. Checked bore and there was a patch in the throat from when I cleaned it.

Also I would think the brass would give up and gas would blow out before the barrel and action? Maybe cause irreparable damage but not blow to hell?

 

[Fenix Mike]

Definitely looks like an obstruction of some sort in the barrel (IMHO). Glad you're all right after this incident...

Prior round hit steel and on video, no obstruction in the barrel.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Mike,

Glad you're okay. Sorry to hear about your rig getting trashed. That's a catastrophic bummer.

Just for our info, Im just trying to gain some clarity. Your friend was shooting the Rem 700 338. What rifle were you shooting? Also, whats your optic? Any chance they will warranty the damage?

I cant say yet, giving the company a chance to make things right and do their "investigation", which the phone call yesterday was just excuses about how their rifles dont have this issue unless I abuse them.
Optic was a NF NXS, which is honestly probably what saved my life. It blew the scope a good 40 yards away and while it penetrated the underside of the scope, the top of the bell caught everything.
So far the gun company offered "to sell me a new one at a discount", which doesnt work for me. The scope wasnt at fault, and I would guess most other brands would have turned to dust under that kind of pressure.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Boy, that Sux! Glad you are okay!
I hope you can get this issue resolved favorably!

I am headed back downstairs to recheck my loading area. I try to keep it neat and only have one process going at a time.

 

[MWM-5150]

seanh started to touch on this, but do you have any pictures of any of the other once fired brass out of the rifle? You might do some investigation on those and see if you notice anything odd about it. Might give some clues about the condition of the chamber before the failure...

 

[xs hedspace]

Heard of a blowup happening because of a primer accidentally dumped into the powder charge. When you pull the other rounds, compare the look of the powder to some from a new H1000 can, see if they look alike. Also, mike the necks of the rounds before pulling, might be some oversized bullets mixed in, making too tight neck clearance.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Did you check out the details on that load????? QuickLoad says that 96gr H1000 behind a 250gr Hornady BTHP will yield 68,632psi, nearly 13% above max rated pressure. Did you only fire one of them? If you fired more than one, perhaps you had cumulative damage due to over-pressure.

 

[Fenix Mike]

First, let me say that I am very glad that you were not hurt. You could have easily been a statistic.

It is very difficult to help diagnose what happened with the limited amount of detail that you provided.

Had you shot your buddy's load previously? What velocity was it clocking at in YOUR rifle?

Did you chamber this round and then unload it before finally firing it? I have seen guys that when they take a break from firing with a round loaded, they will lift the bolt and retract it just a little bit to disenage the firing mechanisim without completely unloading. (Think momentary distraction while in the prone when you just look over to answer a question without getting up) If the round was loaded long it might have stuck the bullet in the throat and jammed the case neck around when you went back to chamber it.

Honestly, we need to see the rifle. This is a post-mortum for the entire system; rifle and ammo.

Don't take this last part as a swipe at you but how long have you been shooting big rifles like this? How long has your buddy been reloading big rounds? Have you seen his reloading set up? Is it neat and organized or does it look like my teenager's room with shit everywhere?

It is a pain in the ass to type a complete recreation of what happened, but you are the one that asked the Hide for our opinion of what happened. If you want help, you have to give more details.

For what it is worth, I have probally done a dozen investigations like this on either artillery or small arms ranges. You have piqued my curiousity.

Good luck,

Guns

no offense taken, this was my first 338 lapua. Ive been shooting 308 and smaller for a long time, and have a couple years of reloading experience totaling about 15,000 rounds. Ive never loaded larger than 308 though, so im new to this stuff... According to him, his rounds were plenty accurate at 1500 yards but I never watched him shoot them, and firing this round was unintentional as I had tons of factory ammo to shoot. Obviously I cant verify anything because the round has been fired, but I have a few more that were in my bag from his same run so I plan on checking them all.
I will post more shortly, I have a feeling today im either going to get good news or bad news from the gun company, and if im out my investment with their only answer being "hand loads arent covered, your problem not ours" I will see to it the videos and pictures make it to every edge of the internet.

 

[Fenix Mike]

seanh started to touch on this, but do you have any pictures of any of the other once fired brass out of the rifle? You might do some investigation on those and see if you notice anything odd about it. Might give some clues about the condition of the chamber before the failure...

I will snap some pics tonight, I only have 10 pieces of the PPU brass as the rest went to them.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Did you check out the details on that load????? QuickLoad says that 96gr H1000 behind a 250gr Hornady BTHP will yield 68,632psi, nearly 13% above max rated pressure. Did you only fire one of them? If you fired more than one, perhaps you had cumulative damage due to over-pressure.

Hodgdons website says 98 gr is max load for that round with a BTHP 250 gr. I am positive only one was fired, and that was the one that did the damage.

 

[Three Guns]

Pull a bullet from one of the unfired rounds and weigh the powder. Also take a look verify that it is rifle powder.

Btw, did the bullet leave the barrel?

Guns

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Okay, I looked that up too, and Hodgdon does list 98.0C, for a 250SP (not HPBT)---not sure that makes a difference, don't think it does.
Hornady's book lists 92.6gr as MAX for the 250HPBT, QuickLoad is listing 93.0gr for same, and Sierra is showing up to 100.1gr for their 250HPBT. Quite a lot of discrepency here. Unfortunately you were not able to do a ladder test to find the max load for your particular rifle.

I hope I'm wrong for your sake, but I'm afraid that the manufacturer is likely to blame the handloads.....

 

[roggom]

Split barrel I would think a squib on the prior shot, unless it was the first shot. If all of the other loads measure the same, one could have been skipped on the loading block.

Glad to hear you are fine.

Lately, if you purchased your rifle and optics with a credit card, you can contact the credit card company. Some of them have a purchase protection benefit that may allow you to get some of your money back. Even if the loss was negligent. Some companies is from $500-$2000.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Pull a bullet from one of the unfired rounds and weigh the powder. Also take a look verify that it is rifle powder.

Btw, did the bullet leave the barrel?

Guns

yes it did, and oddly enough the rifle company also said the muzzle brake was loose when they received it... I tried to remove it prior to shooting to stick a laser bore sight in the barrel and being a big guy with a large wrench, I couldnt get it off and didnt want to destroy it so I just left it alone. No idea if something happened at the end of the barrel or if the heat/explosion just caused it to loosen.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Okay, I looked that up too, and Hodgdon does list 98.0C, for a 250SP (not HPBT)---not sure that makes a difference, don't think it does.
Hornady's book lists 92.6gr as MAX for the 250HPBT, QuickLoad is listing 93.0gr for same, and Sierra is showing up to 100.1gr for their 250HPBT. Quite a lot of discrepency here. Unfortunately you were not able to do a ladder test to find the max load for your particular rifle.

I hope I'm wrong for your sake, but I'm afraid that the manufacturer is likely to blame the handloads.....

They called me yesterday with a handful of excuses and "what ifs" basically trying to just skate out of any responsiblility. I have another one of their rifles in 308 and will be selling it shortly if the outcome is as I am guessing, which is SOL.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Split barrel I would think a squib on the prior shot, unless it was the first shot. If all of the other loads measure the same, one could have been skipped on the loading block.

Glad to hear you are fine.

Lately, if you purchased your rifle and optics with a credit card, you can contact the credit card company. Some of them have a purchase protection benefit that may allow you to get some of your money back. Even if the loss was negligent. Some companies is from $500-$2000.

I bought it "brand new" private party from a guy who was going through a divorce and had to sell all his toys. It was unfired and new in box, but paid cash unfortunately. The serial number per the gun company is 3-4 months old, so its not an old or outdated build.

 

[MtnCreek]

Sniper Uncle,
What psi does quickload show for a 100% charge of H1000 (not compressed) and whatever the typical COL is.

 

[jbailey]

Optic was a NF NXS, which is honestly probably what saved my life. It blew the scope a good 40 yards away and while it penetrated the underside of the scope, the top of the bell caught everything.
So far the gun company offered "to sell me a new one at a discount", which doesnt work for me. The scope wasnt at fault, and I would guess most other brands would have turned to dust under that kind of pressure.

Wow, damn! 40yds! Another reason to purchase good quality optics and avoid the cheap stuff - beefy scope can save your life!
Any chance we could get a photo of the NXS? Big kudos to the quality build from Nightforce.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Wow, damn! 40yds! Another reason to purchase good quality optics and avoid the cheap stuff - beefy scope can save your life!
Any chance we could get a photo of the NXS? Big kudos to the quality build from Nightforce.

I will post some pics once I get this resolved. I bought two more NF scopes after that happened and sold the others I was using

 

[monteboy84]

Man, that's painful to look at, sorry about your rig but glad you're okay. That said, I really doubt that there was any problem with the rifle. Reason being, most of your chamber on a bolt gun is surrounded by the action where the barrel threads in, so not only would the barrel need to fail due to material flaws, but the action around it would need to fail simultaneously for the same reason, which is highly unlikely.

In terms of probability, it's far more likely that your friend made a bad reload in some way shape or form that was severely overpressure and your gun 'done blowed up'. Depending on what your rifle is, it very likely has a shorter throat than the Remington, so if your friend was touching off the lands in his Remington, you'd be jamming into them on your rifle. Combine that with an overcharge and you've got serious pressure problems.

How does the OAL of your friend's handloads compare with your other rounds?

-matt

 

[Fenix Mike]

Man, that's painful to look at, sorry about your rig but glad you're okay. That said, I really doubt that there was any problem with the rifle. Reason being, most of your chamber on a bolt gun is surrounded by the action where the barrel threads in, so not only would the barrel need to fail due to material flaws, but the action around it would need to fail simultaneously for the same reason, which is highly unlikely.

In terms of probability, it's far more likely that your friend made a bad reload in some way shape or form that was severely overpressure and your gun 'done blowed up'. Depending on what your rifle is, it very likely has a shorter throat than the Remington, so if your friend was touching off the lands in his Remington, you'd be jamming into them on your rifle. Combine that with an overcharge and you've got serious pressure problems.

How does the OAL of your friend's handloads compare with your other rounds?

-matt

I will have to look tonight, I dont have any more factory PPU ammo as I sold it after this happened with plans to start loading my own, but I can check the rest against the loading data on hodgdons site.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Sniper Uncle,
What psi does quickload show for a 100% charge of H1000 (not compressed) and whatever the typical COL is.

QuickLoad is saying for Hornady 250 HPBT with H1000, 93gr is Max Load @ 107.0% case capacity and 60,868 psi. 86.9gr is 100% case capacity, and 47,993 psi. This powder can be compressed some without causing problems. 3.681 is listed as COAL for both of these.

 

[MtnCreek]

Is it possible to put enough H1000 in a .338L / 250 HPBT to cause a massave failure? Almost seems like a simple overcharge couldn't do it alone based on those QL numbers. What's typical proof spec for a .338L? ~90k psi ???

 

[Fenix Mike]

Is it possible to put enough H1000 in a .338L / 250 HPBT to cause a massave failure? Almost seems like a simple overcharge couldn't do it alone based on those QL numbers. What's typical proof spec for a .338L? ~90k psi ???

My research said many others run this load and didn't have a problem... Seeing as how it's a compressed load I just don't see how much more than max can even fit in... But that's why I asked in here is because I didn't know.

 

[cwinston]

MtnCreek, I'm wondering the same thing. And If the wrong powder was used, I would expect there would be more of them unfired as evidence.

I'm no expert in this matter, but could it be an unintentional light charge causing a secondary explosion effect? Always a concern when working up subsonic loads, but could be caused by a lack of attention while reloading any cartridge.

 

[brad7348]

Is it possible that when preparing to reload the H1000 was dumped into a auto scale with some tailings from another load batch, meaning the last batch made used varget, H322, RL7 or something hot made for small caliber or pistol. If that were to happen, then the first round loaded would get the lions share of whatever resedue were still in teh hopper, and the others would not. I dont have or use an auto charge despenser but looking at the design it would be easy to think it was empty when it still had old powder in it. a fast burning powder could easily build pressure fast enough to blow the barrel before the projectile made it down the tube.

 

[nso123]

Good luck with the manufacturer. I was shooting an HK 53 on auto when it had a catastrophic failure of the receiver. I was covered in soot and dirt, and slightly shocked by what had just happened. HK had the nerve to ask for the last round of brass that was fired before the failure. It is a freaking machine gun..... how do I know which piece came out of it last? Needless to say, the receiver is still in two pieces and that was more than 10 years ago.

 

[Fenix Mike]

Here is the powder that came out of the other rounds

 

[Fenix Mike]

Also got this from a site today, I dont have a sierra manual to confirm, but might go buy one tomorrow.
"My 5th Edition Sierra manual shows the data for their #2650 .338 250 gr. HPBT MatchKing for 338 Lapua with a C.O.A.L of 3.680" as follows"

Vht N560 82.1 2750
Vht N560 83.7 2800
Vht N560 85.3 2850
Vht N560 86.8 2900
Vht N560 88.4 2950
Vht N560 90.0 3000

Vht N165 85.6 2750
Vht N165 87.9 2800
Vht N165 90.1 2850
Vht N165 92.4 2900

H1000 89.3 2750
H1000 91.5 2800
H1000 93.6 2850
H1000 95.8 2900
H1000 97.9 2950
H1000 100.1 3000

Retumbo 89.6 2750
Retumb0 92.1 2800
Retumbo 94.5 2850

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Here is the powder that came out of the other rounds

Do you have any H1000 powder from a can yourself? I just got mine out, and your pic looks awful much like a mixture of two powders. If you don't have any, I suggest you get some or find someone you trust who has some, and check it out. I see two different grain diameters and colors in your pic, and my H1000 is only greenish and fairly large diameter, no silverish and smaller diameter.
If this is indeed a mix, that could be your problem.

 

[Bloody_Tailgate]

That is ABSOLUTELY a mixture of 2 powders...you'd better tell your buddy to check his other loads, or his rifle is going to end up like yours.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Here is the powder that came out of the other rounds

Do you have any H1000 powder from a can yourself? I just got mine out, and your pic looks awful much like a mixture of two powders. If you don't have any, I suggest you get some or find someone you trust who has some, and check it out. I see two different grain diameters and colors in your pic, and my H1000 is only greenish and fairly large diameter, no silverish and smaller diameter.
If this is indeed a mix, that could be your problem.

Here is the pic of mine...