Interesting read on the decline of religious faith in children.

[theLBC]

honesty is by definition provable and demonstrable. It's also reputational which is evidence based.

Love can be explaned as a series of chemical reactions. The chemical status of love can be replicated with the consumption of adequate levels of chocolate. Love is a euphoric mental status brought about my seratonin.

i can't agree.
truth is demonstrable and can be differentiated from a lie. honesty is the motivation to tell that truth.
you can produce those same feelings with drugs, although clearly some people seem to love drugs and give selfless devotion to acquire them.
a man can be honest, and say things that are untrue.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

christian doctrine states you need to have faith with the express absence of evidence otherwise it's not faith. I don't have faith in gravity, gravity is provable, undeniable, there's no merit to my 'belieiving' in gravtiy. JC rewards faith, blind faith, not evidence based decisions driven and supported by empirical data. Evidence is the killer of faith.

Your understanding of faith is counter to the type of faith the Bible talks about. (See Hebrews Chapter 11 for the Biblical definition)

1) It is impossible to have any amount of faith unless it is given of God. If you don't know God, then you won't have faith, no matter how much you think you believe. Faith without God is akin to one who was born blind being convinced that they can see.

2) Not only is faith a gift from God, but once it is given, faith increases by experience. One trusts God because He has proven Himself faithful in the past.

Example: I have faith that my parachute will work, because my father is a master parachute maker and has never failed. He personally manufactured and packed this parachute for me. Therefore, I know the chute will carry me, though I've never jumped this chute before.

Evidence and experience are not the killers of faith as you assert.
Evidence and experience are the backbone of Biblical faith.

 

[gunjunkie45]

Incorrect here is as well. Atheism = lack of belief in god(s). It is literally a lack of belief system, which is the opposite of a religion.

Most non-believers I know fall into the category of, "I do not believe a god exists. I am not saying one DOESN'T exist, I just find myself unconvinced of religious claims."

Here is where I beg to differ... I am also a non believer and called myself an Atheist for many years. I became uncomfortable with that label when I came to the realization that having faith in the non-existence of a diety was still FAITH. It can't be proven either way. Atheism is a hard faith against the existence of a God. I highly doubt a God exists, but I tend to go with agnostic leaning towards atheism.

 

[chrome]

Here is where I beg to differ... I am also a non believer and called myself an Atheist for many years. I became uncomfortable with that label when I came to the realization that having faith in the non-existence of a diety was still FAITH. It can't be proven either way. Atheism is a hard faith against the existence of a God. I highly doubt a God exists, but I tend to go with agnostic leaning towards atheism.

Appreciate the above. I think it comes down to how we would mutually define the word faith? I define faith as believing in something without a good reason to do so.

So if we agree on the definition of an atheist or non-believer, as someone who doesn't believe, or isn't convinced a god exists. Not being unconvinced, would that be the same has having faith, from your perspective?

 

[theLBC]

can you prove his love and determination exists, without seeing it?

https://files.catbox.moe/dta6o8.mp4

 

[LRRPF52]

I wonder how I fit into this then. I am baptized catholic, gone through communion, went to a catholic school until grade 10. I was taught from a young age by my mother to think for myself, in everything, so maybe that's where the change happened. I couldn't take the hypocrisy of every authority figure around me. I was given the choice to change schools as a teenager and I took it, after my sister was given the same choice because of dealing with teachers who constantly put her, and her abilities down. Shitty parents? Doubtful. Shitty leadership/mentors/role models? More likely.

If I had to categorize where I am now, I would probably say agnostic theist. With so many different religions, and different variations of God, who am I to say the version of God I have been brought up to worship is the right one? To me, there very well could be a God, but I have a hard time believing in any version explained to me from another human.

There once was a soldier named Joe who got orders to a unit that didn’t really follow Army regulations well at all. The TMs and FMs were around somewhere, but they did things more off of a series of cultural traditions instead of how they were supposed to.

Junior leaders didn’t give much of a rip about Joe because mid leaders only looked out for themselves, and picked guys to lead who sucked up to them. Senior leaders didn’t care as long as everyone looked a certain way, and nobody was getting hurt doing realistic training. Officer Evaluation Reports were doctored to make the leaders look like gifts to the Army, pure geniuses with untold potential.

Meanwhile in Ranger Regiment, they exceeded the standards across the board, were always training, doing live fires, flat ranges, demo work, CQB, rotary wing ops day/night, night airborne ops onto airfields, executing CALFEXs and raids with full TF160 and AFSOC support, then deploying to take the sharpened edge to the enemy.

Joe heard about Rangers, but never saw them. He didn’t care at that point, and could only wait patiently to get out of the Army, because the Army sucked. 3.5 years of him being in that one unit told him all he needed to know.

 

[LRRPF52]

That is not how proving something works. We do not accept claims as true because we can't prove a negative. We would live in chaos if we accepted all negative claims as true because we couldn't disprove them.

This is a fundamental failure in thinking, and maybe a good example to the root cause of the article. Maybe children are being taught to think more critically?

Children being taught to think critically...in public school? Ha ha!

Find me even 15% of people who have Masters degrees that have taken and internalized formal critical thinking courses. Most are still struggling with “him and I” as an object, “their/they’re/there”, "we’re, were, where", etc. It’s painful to read through articles even in some scientific or legal journals nowadays.

Most of the arguments in common discourse today are a result of basic false premises that are easily dismantled on inspection, but people usually fall for the emotional bait and knee-jerk into the argument without even analyzing the basic claims and premises.

 

[LRRPF52]

erm... honesty is the accurate, complete and unabridged recounting of events, intent and actions as best to the recollection of the person, peoples or institutions presenting them. Veracity of that honesty is the confirmation of those facts. Honesty is provable as it's the outcome of an assessment. That's what seperates fact from fiction.

I don't know how to prove love. it's an emotion that someone professes. Honesty is not an emotion.

Virtue is a subjective assessment of actions with a fluid definition but is commonly heavily weighted with being observably (and thus provably) honest.

Love is not an emotion. Love is action. There’s a huge difference.

Feelings of affection, endearment, and the positive emotions that result from likable interactions between beings is one thing.

Making sacrifices of yourself for others is entirely different.

The meaning of love has been corrupted by school, pop culture, and society.

It is very easy to prove love when you see it.

 

[LRRPF52]

It always amazes me that people of religious faith who hold one set of values, then send their children to be indoctrinated about the origins of life, man’s role in the world, and very extensive tenets of Weishaupt’s, Marx’s, and Darwin’s anti-religious theories.

When their children come home after several years of this and start talking about how great socialism is, that they now identify as a different gender, and how horrible the Founders and Christians were, they act shocked.

Of course they are going to do that if you send them to the church of human secularism, which is an evil creation of vile men, who had absolutely antithetical goals to the founding principles of America.

 

[chrome]

Children being taught to think critically...in public school? Ha ha!

Find me even 15% of people who have Masters degrees that have taken and internalized formal critical thinking courses. Most are still struggling with “him and I” as an object, “their/they’re/there”, "we’re, were, where", etc. It’s painful to read through articles even in some scientific or legal journals nowadays.

Most of the arguments in common discourse today are a result of basic false premises that are easily dismantled on inspection, but people usually fall for the emotional bait and knee-jerk into the argument without even analyzing the basic claims and premises.

I posed an optimistic question, I agree.

 

[gunjunkie45]

Appreciate the above. I think it comes down to how we would mutually define the word faith? I define faith as believing in something without a good reason to do so.

So if we agree on the definition of an atheist or non-believer, as someone who doesn't believe, or isn't convinced a god exists. Not being unconvinced, would that be the same has having faith, from your perspective?

Faith would also define being utterly sure a diety does not exist. You still have to believe without being able to absolutely prove... I can't imagine the Judeo Christian "God" actually existing with what we know about the workings of the universe. We would be less than bacteria to such a being... To think that you or I or our "souls" would matter is the height of Narcissism. However, there isn't anything to demonstrate against a "Creator", as in something much higher than us that put things in motion. May as well call that a GOD.

 

[chrome]

Faith would also define being utterly sure a diety does not exit. You still have to believe without being able to absolutely prove... I can't imagine the Judeo Christian "God" actually exiting with what we know about the workings of the universe. We would be less than bacteria to such a being... To think that you or I or our "souls" would matter is the height of Narcissism. However, there isn't anything to demonstrate against a "Creator", as in something much higher than us that put things in motion. May as well call that a GOD.

Ok, thanks. I am tracking. I dont fall into the camp of being utterly sure a deity does not exist. That would put the burden of proof upon me, of which I have none. But no one does, as you can't prove a negative.

I fall into the other camp that I remain unconvinced a deity exists, and I am open minded but waiting on better evidence.

 

[k-space]

Robin Dunbar, the evolutionary psychologist famous for "Dunbar's number", says at the center of religion is a mystical concern with belonging.

I think that's about right.

 

[Mudburner]

christian doctrine states you need to have faith with the express absence of evidence otherwise it's not faith. I don't have faith in gravity, gravity is provable, undeniable, there's no merit to my 'belieiving' in gravtiy. JC rewards faith, blind faith, not evidence based decisions driven and supported by empirical data. Evidence is the killer of faith.

Where do you get this idea?

Please allow me to present an opposing view?

Faith is not based on nothing, or without evidence. Biblical faith is based on what God has said. Faith is a person's response to what God says.

"What God says?" God's word is both written (Greek:logos) and oral (Greek:rhema). Just because some people have never heard God speak to them doesn't prove that it doesn't happen, or never did. (not saying that was your argument, please bear with me)...

Romans 10:17 (New King James Version) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

My faith is based upon what I have heard. Directly. From God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. It is not based upon nothing.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. I never knew I had to be born again because the Catholic church doesn't require it. But I grew up hearing bible stories, etc. and was familiar with it. Only when I was older (age 17) did I perceive somehow that God wanted me to "get saved", ask to have my sins forgiven, etc. I realized that I WANTED to go to heaven and not end up in the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) A Baptist preacher caught me smoking weed and set me down, opened the bible & showed me what is written about me & Jesus & what He did for me. I prayed the sinner's prayer to get him off my back, but I didn't really mean it. Until 3 years later, when I was ready, I guess.

So I responded to what I perceived as the leading of God and asked for it on 25 June 1979. It took me a few months before I realized that something had actually happened and I was indeed really changed. My life began to change. That was 41 years ago.

Of course, I believed in the existance of God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Someone who doesn't believe God exists... well, I got nothin. Nothing but Scripture.

Now, about faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Substance and evidence are not "nothing". In my case God proved His own existance to me and I responded appropriately.

In ALL cases of faith in the bible, OT/NT people HEARD God and responded. In my experience, I have heard God speak to me in English, on several different occasions. I have also experienced very mild/vague impressions where it just "seemed like" God wanted me to do this/that. (please see Luke 1:3 where Luke says "it seemed good to me... to write...)

So in my experience, there has been a wide spectrum of input from God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Everything from "it seemed like a good idea" all the way to God speaking to me in English.

When that happened, I heard it inside myself, in my spirit/my heart/my inner man. For those curious as to what God said to me, He said, "I will" (I was praying for my brother to be saved, he had been in a m/c crash. He got saved 2 days later.) He also said, "NO!" about a bible college I was praying about going to. And He also said, "Trust Me!" about the bible school I did go to. Over the years I have experienced many, many times when the Lord directed me to do something. More recently He told me, "Don't get drunk!/Don't be a drunk!" because when I got back from my 4th deployment to Afghanistan I was drinking heavily every day.

I have also heard the enemy (the devil/a demon) speak to me. IN CHURCH! Some church lady was talking about having a ham & bean dinner & I wasn't even gonna go or be involved with it when I CLEARLY heard a voice tell me, "SPIT IN IT!"

I was shocked! And wondered where in the world did THAT come from? And I realized that an enemy spirit had just TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. I thinGod allowed it for instructional purposes, so I would recognize the difference between Jesus's voice and the enemy.

John 10:1-5
John 10:27

If you are a christian, you should be hearing from Jesus. Nothing strange about hearing from the Lord. That's where faith comes from. Where people get in the ditch is when they hear from the enemy and don't recognize it for what it is: lies/deception/camouflage.

Every person hears SOMETHING. What do you hear?

 

[Lange Carabine]

Where do you get this idea?

Please allow me to present an opposing view?

Faith is not based on nothing, or without evidence. Biblical faith is based on what God has said. Faith is a person's response to what God says.

"What God says?" God's word is both written (Greek:logos) and oral (Greek:rhema). Just because some people have never heard God speak to them doesn't prove that it doesn't happen, or never did. (not saying that was your argument, please bear with me)...

Romans 10:17 (New King James Version) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

My faith is based upon what I have heard. Directly. From God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. It is not based upon nothing.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. I never knew I had to be born again because the Catholic church doesn't require it. But I grew up hearing bible stories, etc. and was familiar with it. Only when I was older (age 17) did I perceive somehow that God wanted me to "get saved", ask to have my sins forgiven, etc. I realized that I WANTED to go to heaven and not end up in the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) A Baptist preacher caught me smoking weed and set me down, opened the bible & showed me what is written about me & Jesus & what He did for me. I prayed the sinner's prayer to get him off my back, but I didn't really mean it. Until 3 years later, when I was ready, I guess.

So I responded to what I perceived as the leading of God and asked for it on 25 June 1979. It took me a few months before I realized that something had actually happened and I was indeed really changed. My life began to change. That was 41 years ago.

Of course, I believed in the existance of God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Someone who doesn't believe God exists... well, I got nothin. Nothing but Scripture.

Now, about faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Substance and evidence are not "nothing". In my case God proved His own existance to me and I responded appropriately.

In ALL cases of faith in the bible, OT/NT people HEARD God and responded. In my experience, I have heard God speak to me in English, on several different occasions. I have also experienced very mild/vague impressions where it just "seemed like" God wanted me to do this/that. (please see Luke 1:3 where Luke says "it seemed good to me... to write...)

So in my experience, there has been a wide spectrum of input from God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Everything from "it seemed like a good idea" all the way to God speaking to me in English.

When that happened, I heard it inside myself, in my spirit/my heart/my inner man. For those curious as to what God said to me, He said, "I will" (I was praying for my brother to be saved, he had been in a m/c crash. He got saved 2 days later.) He also said, "NO!" about a bible college I was praying about going to. And He also said, "Trust Me!" about the bible school I did go to. Over the years I have experienced many, many times when the Lord directed me to do something. More recently He told me, "Don't get drunk!/Don't be a drunk!" because when I got back from my 4th deployment to Afghanistan I was drinking heavily every day.

I have also heard the enemy (the devil/a demon) speak to me. IN CHURCH! Some church lady was talking about having a ham & bean dinner & I wasn't even gonna go or be involved with it when I CLEARLY heard a voice tell me, "SPIT IN IT!"

I was shocked! And wondered where in the world did THAT come from? And I realized that an enemy spirit had just TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. I thinGod allowed it for instructional purposes, so I would recognize the difference between Jesus's voice and the enemy.

John 10:1-5
John 10:27

If you are a christian, you should be hearing from Jesus. Nothing strange about hearing from the Lord. That's where faith comes from. Where people get in the ditch is when they hear from the enemy and don't recognize it for what it is: lies/deception/camouflage.

Every person hears SOMETHING. What do you hear?

A wonderful, powerful testimony. Thank you for sharing it with us.

 

[chrome]

Where do you get this idea?

Please allow me to present an opposing view?

Faith is not based on nothing, or without evidence. Biblical faith is based on what God has said. Faith is a person's response to what God says.

"What God says?" God's word is both written (Greek:logos) and oral (Greek:rhema). Just because some people have never heard God speak to them doesn't prove that it doesn't happen, or never did. (not saying that was your argument, please bear with me)...

Romans 10:17 (New King James Version) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

My faith is based upon what I have heard. Directly. From God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. It is not based upon nothing.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. I never knew I had to be born again because the Catholic church doesn't require it. But I grew up hearing bible stories, etc. and was familiar with it. Only when I was older (age 17) did I perceive somehow that God wanted me to "get saved", ask to have my sins forgiven, etc. I realized that I WANTED to go to heaven and not end up in the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) A Baptist preacher caught me smoking weed and set me down, opened the bible & showed me what is written about me & Jesus & what He did for me. I prayed the sinner's prayer to get him off my back, but I didn't really mean it. Until 3 years later, when I was ready, I guess.

So I responded to what I perceived as the leading of God and asked for it on 25 June 1979. It took me a few months before I realized that something had actually happened and I was indeed really changed. My life began to change. That was 41 years ago.

Of course, I believed in the existance of God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Someone who doesn't believe God exists... well, I got nothin. Nothing but Scripture.

Now, about faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Substance and evidence are not "nothing". In my case God proved His own existance to me and I responded appropriately.

In ALL cases of faith in the bible, OT/NT people HEARD God and responded. In my experience, I have heard God speak to me in English, on several different occasions. I have also experienced very mild/vague impressions where it just "seemed like" God wanted me to do this/that. (please see Luke 1:3 where Luke says "it seemed good to me... to write...)

So in my experience, there has been a wide spectrum of input from God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Everything from "it seemed like a good idea" all the way to God speaking to me in English.

When that happened, I heard it inside myself, in my spirit/my heart/my inner man. For those curious as to what God said to me, He said, "I will" (I was praying for my brother to be saved, he had been in a m/c crash. He got saved 2 days later.) He also said, "NO!" about a bible college I was praying about going to. And He also said, "Trust Me!" about the bible school I did go to. Over the years I have experienced many, many times when the Lord directed me to do something. More recently He told me, "Don't get drunk!/Don't be a drunk!" because when I got back from my 4th deployment to Afghanistan I was drinking heavily every day.

I have also heard the enemy (the devil/a demon) speak to me. IN CHURCH! Some church lady was talking about having a ham & bean dinner & I wasn't even gonna go or be involved with it when I CLEARLY heard a voice tell me, "SPIT IN IT!"

I was shocked! And wondered where in the world did THAT come from? And I realized that an enemy spirit had just TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. I thinGod allowed it for instructional purposes, so I would recognize the difference between Jesus's voice and the enemy.

John 10:1-5
John 10:27

If you are a christian, you should be hearing from Jesus. Nothing strange about hearing from the Lord. That's where faith comes from. Where people get in the ditch is when they hear from the enemy and don't recognize it for what it is: lies/deception/camouflage.

Every person hears SOMETHING. What do you hear?

Appreciate the time it took to break out the above. I think where the paradox (at least for me) arises in this conversation with this statement below:

Biblical faith is based on what God has said. Faith is a person's response to what God says.

For non-believers, generally speaking, a normal response would be, "Why should we lend any credence to what the bible says?" Can you prove to us the bible is the word of a god? Until then, the book and its contents remain unsupported, not warranting accepting its claims.

Or said another way, the non-believer sees the bible as the claim to truth, not the truth within itself. We cannot accept the truth claims in a book because the book says its true.

So that may be a large part of why others, and specifically myself, view faith as a term that is believing in something without good reason. And that last phrase, 'without good reason' would be defined as not being able to demonstrate openly to others the evidence (and ideally proof, 2 different things) to why someone believes a certain claim is true.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Where do you get this idea?

Please allow me to present an opposing view?

Faith is not based on nothing, or without evidence. Biblical faith is based on what God has said. Faith is a person's response to what God says.

"What God says?" God's word is both written (Greek:logos) and oral (Greek:rhema). Just because some people have never heard God speak to them doesn't prove that it doesn't happen, or never did. (not saying that was your argument, please bear with me)...

Romans 10:17 (New King James Version) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

My faith is based upon what I have heard. Directly. From God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. It is not based upon nothing.

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. I never knew I had to be born again because the Catholic church doesn't require it. But I grew up hearing bible stories, etc. and was familiar with it. Only when I was older (age 17) did I perceive somehow that God wanted me to "get saved", ask to have my sins forgiven, etc. I realized that I WANTED to go to heaven and not end up in the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) A Baptist preacher caught me smoking weed and set me down, opened the bible & showed me what is written about me & Jesus & what He did for me. I prayed the sinner's prayer to get him off my back, but I didn't really mean it. Until 3 years later, when I was ready, I guess.

So I responded to what I perceived as the leading of God and asked for it on 25 June 1979. It took me a few months before I realized that something had actually happened and I was indeed really changed. My life began to change. That was 41 years ago.

Of course, I believed in the existance of God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Someone who doesn't believe God exists... well, I got nothin. Nothing but Scripture.

Now, about faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Substance and evidence are not "nothing". In my case God proved His own existance to me and I responded appropriately.

In ALL cases of faith in the bible, OT/NT people HEARD God and responded. In my experience, I have heard God speak to me in English, on several different occasions. I have also experienced very mild/vague impressions where it just "seemed like" God wanted me to do this/that. (please see Luke 1:3 where Luke says "it seemed good to me... to write...)

So in my experience, there has been a wide spectrum of input from God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit. Everything from "it seemed like a good idea" all the way to God speaking to me in English.

When that happened, I heard it inside myself, in my spirit/my heart/my inner man. For those curious as to what God said to me, He said, "I will" (I was praying for my brother to be saved, he had been in a m/c crash. He got saved 2 days later.) He also said, "NO!" about a bible college I was praying about going to. And He also said, "Trust Me!" about the bible school I did go to. Over the years I have experienced many, many times when the Lord directed me to do something. More recently He told me, "Don't get drunk!/Don't be a drunk!" because when I got back from my 4th deployment to Afghanistan I was drinking heavily every day.

I have also heard the enemy (the devil/a demon) speak to me. IN CHURCH! Some church lady was talking about having a ham & bean dinner & I wasn't even gonna go or be involved with it when I CLEARLY heard a voice tell me, "SPIT IN IT!"

I was shocked! And wondered where in the world did THAT come from? And I realized that an enemy spirit had just TOLD ME WHAT TO DO. I thinGod allowed it for instructional purposes, so I would recognize the difference between Jesus's voice and the enemy.

John 10:1-5
John 10:27

If you are a christian, you should be hearing from Jesus. Nothing strange about hearing from the Lord. That's where faith comes from. Where people get in the ditch is when they hear from the enemy and don't recognize it for what it is: lies/deception/camouflage.

Every person hears SOMETHING. What do you hear?

I appreciate you writing this. I'd like to give a more considered response later, but for now, the epiphany you had that compelled you to believe is something I had that compelled me to reject it as anything other than fantasy. I fundamentally do not believe in sin or 'original sin' or anything that goes against something higher than the immediate parties being wronged.

Does this mean I don't believe in good/evil? No, I see goodness and I see evil, but I don't see them in the context of any divine or celestial battle where the measure of who's winning is souls.

To me, when someone says 'I heard the voice of God' I have to ask myself, what's to stop you from believing someone on the street saying the same thing when they said 'God told me to kill and eat my mother.' I've heard, many times, god is mysterious, therefore, why wouldn't he compell us to do seeminly insane things... like Abraham being compelled to turn his only son into a burnt sacrifice...

 

[Mudburner]

Some guys are gonna think, "This is all a big pile of horse shit!"

I think, "There's got to be a pony around here somewheres... And I'm gonna find it!"

 

[EM92wx]

Choose what makes you feel good. Either way you’ll know one way or another, maybe not, in the end.

 

[EM92wx]

honesty is by definition provable and demonstrable. It's also reputational which is evidence based.

Love can be explaned as a series of chemical reactions. The chemical status of love can be replicated with the consumption of adequate levels of chocolate. Love is a euphoric mental status brought about my seratonin.

I love chocolate.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I fundamentally do not believe in sin or 'original sin' or anything that goes against something higher than the immediate parties being wronged.

Does this mean I don't believe in good/evil? No, I see goodness and I see evil, but I don't see them in the context of any divine or celestial battle where the measure of who's winning is souls.

You say you don't believe in anyone or anything higher than yourself, yet you say you believe in "good and evil".

If you have no standard higher than yourself, then by what standard are you discerning them? If you say, "By MY standard" then all you have done is place yourself in the place of God.

You then, are a God unto yourself, to do whatever you see fit in your own eyes.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

Only if you have listened too much to the pious platitudes of humans who tell you that all should be always be happy, in love love, with posperity prosperity and an easy life.

If you read the entire book front to back carefully for yourself, it won't be a problem for your faith.

beat me to it.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

You say you don't believe in anyone or anything higher than yourself, yet you say you believe in "good and evil".

If you have no standard higher than yourself, then by what standard are you discerning them? If you say, "By MY standard" then all you have done is place yourself in the place of God.

You then, are a God unto yourself, to do whatever you see fit in your own eyes.

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

 

[theLBC]

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

i am not sure.
i believe religion could be a function of evolution, and it shows up when the general rule "survival of the fittest" is lost to the ability to make weapons and tools, allowing weaker and defective examples of a species to kill the more exceptional examples of that species.

 

[Rthur]

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

If anything history has taught us that natural law says "Might is Right".
Even the knights of the round table believed only a honorable man could win
In combat.

R

 

[chrome]

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

I'd rephrase your question, specifically to "demonstrate a deity is required to be the arbiter of someone's morality". But ultimately agree with your statement.

i am not sure.
i believe religion could be a function of evolution

I very much believe religion is a function of human evolution. Human consciousness inherently searches for purpose/meaning, and religion is a very easy puzzle piece to fit into that gap. The barrier to accept is minimal.

 

[Blutroop]

The only way government can break up a nuclear family is if those in the nuclear family allow it. I do not blame the government or communistic principles for the lack of parenting that is plaguing our youth. I blame the lazy ass parents that would rather hit the easy button, than discipline, love and teach their children.

It’s not always the parents fault. There’s plenty of parents that need their kids taken from em, yet there’s guys like me, father of 4. Only get to be dad to 3.
No one cares when the woman violated court orders and no one cares. Especially not the gov. Cps doesn’t even consider parental alienation a form of abuse. I bet if I was teaching him about God and mom didn’t like it cps would consider that abuse.

Family bonds used to be the strongest resistance to the gov and now gov is after guns. That should tell you all you need to know about families and gov.

 

[Maggot]

I'd rephrase your question, specifically to "demonstrate a deity is required to be the arbiter of someone's morality". But ultimately agree with your statement.



I very much believe religion is a function of human evolution. Human consciousness inherently searches for purpose/meaning, and religion is a very easy puzzle piece to fit into that gap. The barrier to accept is minimal.

Can it be that man creates God to fulfill his need?

The concept of the infinite, the "Is, always has been, and always will be" is tough to grasp in the finite mind.

 

[theLBC]

Can it be that man creates God to fulfill his need?

The concept of the infinite, the "Is, always has been, and always will be" is tough to grasp in the finite mind.

maybe.
the personification of the ideal.
create an alpha with all the necessary qualities (wisdom, fairness, strength), but make him immortal, so those leadership qualities and rules of behavior are not lost each time the alpha or leader of a group dies.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

 

[chrome]

Can it be that man creates God to fulfill his need?

Very plausible that man creates the concept of a deity to fulfill a need to find purpose. We start dipping into the Jungian hierarchies concepts which is a huge rabbit hole.

The concept of the infinite, the "Is, always has been, and always will be" is tough to grasp in the finite mind.

Agreed, tough to digest.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Religion never sat well with me.
I read Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden" when I was 13.
That pretty much confirmed my suspicion that religion and god were man made constructs.

 

[AngryKoala]

It’s not always the parents fault. There’s plenty of parents that need their kids taken from em, yet there’s guys like me, father of 4. Only get to be dad to 3.
No one cares when the woman violated court orders and no one cares. Especially not the gov. Cps doesn’t even consider parental alienation a form of abuse. I bet if I was teaching him about God and mom didn’t like it cps would consider that abuse.

Family bonds used to be the strongest resistance to the gov and now gov is after guns. That should tell you all you need to know about families and gov.

It may not always be the parents fault but a majority of the time it is. I do not know your circumstances and I am sorry you do not get to parent your fourth child but I hold by my previous statement.

I witness too many kids trapped with drug addicted, abusive (physically, emotionally and sexually), neglectful and downright fucken terrible people. These range from people that you expect (drug addicted) to wealthy individuals.

Social services isn't large enough to handle the case load and it isn't even close. I could go on and on but the truth of the matter is the % of good parents vs % worthless parents is flipping in the wrong direction.

I am getting closer and closer to fostering just to hopefully start making a change.

 

[Blutroop]

It may not always be the parents fault but a majority of the time it is. I do not know your circumstances and I am sorry you do not get to parent your fourth child but I hold by my previous statement.

I witness too many kids trapped with drug addicted, abusive (physically, emotionally and sexually), neglectful and downright fucken terrible people. These range from people that you expect (drug addicted) to wealthy individuals.

Social services isn't large enough to handle the case load and it isn't even close. I could go on and on but the truth of the matter is the % of good parents vs % worthless parents is flipping in the wrong direction.

I am getting closer and closer to fostering just to hopefully start making a change.

I’m not disputing what your saying. I just want to remind people that this is another fine example of gov control being given too much unconstitutional power. And ask any divorced dad with kids about how much power the gov has over kids. Sure it’s needed, maybe even in more situations than I want to know, but if they really cared about the kids they would at least enforce court orders so a son could talk to his dad and vice versa. @THEIS even offered to help before I bugged him while he had a lot going on but so far no help from no one including from league city police department or Texas child protective services. Galveston county sheriff’s office didn’t even want to acknowledge it was their jurisdiction.

I remember a family raided and a kid taken at gunpoint from their parents because they went home to break a fever. Doc was wrong and still got kids taken away.

Or the recovered parents that wanted their kid back, gov said no and then foster parents killed the kid.

 

[AngryKoala]

I’m not disputing what your saying. I just want to remind people that this is another fine example of gov control being given too much unconstitutional power. And ask any divorced dad with kids about how much power the gov has over kids. Sure it’s needed, maybe even in more situations than I want to know, but if they really cared about the kids they would at least enforce court orders so a son could talk to his dad and vice versa. @THEIS even offered to help before I bugged him while he had a lot going on but so far no help from league city police department or Texas child protective services. Galveston county sheriff’s office didn’t even want to acknowledge it was their jurisdiction.

I remember a family raided and a kid taken at gunpoint from their parents because they went home to break a fever. Doc was wrong and still got kids taken away.

Or the recovered parents that wanted their kid back, gov said no and then foster parents killed the kid.

Oh the government is a colossal fuck up, I am by no means exonerating them of guilt for their shitty practices either. God Speed, and I wish you nothing but the best. You are obviously a parent that cares....I wish there were more like you.

 

[Blutroop]

Oh the government is a colossal fuck up, I am by no means exonerating them of guilt for their shitty practices either. God Speed, and I wish you nothing but the best. You are obviously a parent that cares....I wish there were more like you.

I do too. Kids need Parents. Fostering is a great idea when not done to support one self.

If someone started interviewing all these antifa terrorists I’ll bet most of em didn’t have any sort of father figure.

Those of you that cannot or will not acknowledge God will not be able to see the totality of what is really going on and how it ties in to family bonds and gov oppression.

 

[AngryKoala]

I do too. Kids need Parents. Fostering is a great idea when not done to support one self.

If someone started interviewing all these antifa terrorists I’ll bet most of em didn’t have any sort of father figure.

Those of you that cannot or will not acknowledge God will not be able to see the totality of what is really going on and how it ties in to family bonds and gov oppression.

Agree until the very last statement.

 

[Blutroop]

Agree until the very last statement.

I knew not everyone would agree with my last statement.

Kinda curious to hear from those that don’t believe concerning how our founding fathers put God in there and acknowledged that he is the source of our rights.

What’s your take on that? Were some of the F F atheist too? In the mind of someone who doesn’t believe does having a Santa Claus be responsible for the origin of your rights make em easier or harder to defend? Indifferent?

 

[AngryKoala]

I knew not everyone would agree with my last statement.

Kinda curious to hear from those that don’t believe concerning how our founding fathers put God in there and acknowledged that he is the source of our rights.

What’s your take on that? Were some of the F F atheist too? In the mind of someone who doesn’t believe does having a Santa Claus be responsible for the origin of your rights make em easier or harder to defend? Indifferent?

Our rights are not given to us by God, by the government or anything else. We are born with that right as citizens of the USA.

You have to remember the time period and the impact God/religion had on society. There was no alternative thought which is why it was placed in the constitution.

 

[Josh1978]

At 2 years old my son was hit by a car, tires ran over the length of his little body. In the hospital with doctors and nurses frantically working on him he opened his eyes. One of the hospital staff began to talk to him. They asked him if anyone else was under that car with him? He replied, “Jesus.”

Some time after, we were driving down the street and there was a picture of Christ painted on a building. He shouted from the back seat, “Mommy daddy, that is the man that was under the car with me.”
Even to this day, more than 11 years later, my eyes still tear as I tell you this story.
Is there a God? Absolutely. He saved my son.

 

[acudaowner]

I thought that funny timing about the same time parents were told not to spank there children kids started not buying into god , I guess there isn't much need for divine intervention when your ass is not on the line . Lol to me my old man was God he would beat my ass in school , in front of the school , in a store and at the holding tank he had to pick me up in front of the cops at after telling them to keep me . oh such fond memories of bad choices and there consequences .

 

[chrome]

Those of you that cannot or will not acknowledge God will not be able to see the totality of what is really going on and how it ties in to family bonds and gov oppression.

Please demonstrate my inability to understand this, given I am unconvinced a deity exists.

 

[Blutroop]

Our rights are not given to us by God, by the government or anything else. We are born with that right as citizens of the USA.

You have to remember the time period and the impact God/religion had on society. There was no alternative thought which is why it was placed in the constitution.

My rights were given to me by God. He’s saved my mortal life a few times. Nothing so easily worded as @Josh1978 above but I know for a fact he is there.

Your statement implies only Americans have rights?

I think even the atheists at the time recognized the power in the wording they chose even if they didn’t believe. Have you seen any better examples of blind faith?
How do you beat that kind of blind faith?
You must break family bonds, rationalize bad behavior, drugs, brainwashing, disarmament. See a pattern?

 

[Blutroop]

Please demonstrate my inability to understand this, given I am unconvinced a deity exists.

If people are running around talking about some “mark of the beast” that you won’t be able to buy and sell without and you pay no mind because “no deity” then your not gonna be seeing the same picture as those that at least heard what “those crazy God lovers” had to say. From your statement your on the fence. If you have any doubt you should strive to have no doubt. Ask God if he is real to show himself to you. You might actually get a answer. Stranger things have happened.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

Because good and evil will always be relative without an absolute standard. If there is no higher standard, then good and evil are whatever you say they are.

That is an observable reality that happens everyday between individuals, between groups, between nations.

 

[AngryKoala]

My rights were given to me by God. He’s saved my mortal life a few times. Nothing so easily worded as @Josh1978 above but I know for a fact he is there.

Your statement implies only Americans have rights?

I think even the atheists at the time recognized the power in the wording they chose even if they didn’t believe. Have you seen any better examples of blind faith?
How do you beat that kind of blind faith?
You must break family bonds, rationalize bad behavior, drugs, brainwashing, disarmament. See a pattern?

This is going to go down a road of arguing religion and I do not feel like going down that path. You have your beliefs and I have mine. One does not need God or faith to have rights, do the right thing or in general be a good person. Religion is not a requirement to be righteous. This can easily be identified by all the "righteous" catholic child molesters.

 

[Blutroop]

you've extrapolated a great deal from a wrong assumption and also, why do you feel it requires a deity to be the arbiter of morality? There is a philosophy of 'natural law' that can easily accomodate the notions of good and evil without the need for superstition.

Natural law says I can kill you for no other reason then testing out my bigger stick. Are you sure you don’t want people like me having a moral Base from God so if nothing else lines up with others believing in the same God? Or would you rather me be Muslim so a religion will allow me to rape your wife and daughter and kill anyone who don’t believe the same as me?

 

[chrome]

Our rights are not given to us by God, by the government or anything else. We are born with that right as citizens of the USA.

You have to remember the time period and the impact God/religion had on society. There was no alternative thought which is why it was placed in the constitution.

Agreed. The word "god" "lord" (insert label here), outside I believe the date/signature block of the constitution, doesn't exist.

I the declaration makes mention of a creator and rights being endowed by such creator. One is a declaration of war, one is the foundation of our government, and I think the COTUS specifically not mentioning a creator, given how close the declaration was written in time, was for a reason.

If people are running around talking about some “mark of the beast” that you won’t be able to buy and sell without and you pay no mind because “no deity” then your not gonna be seeing the same picture as those that at least heard what “those crazy God lovers” had to say. From your statement your on the fence. If you have any doubt you should strive to have no doubt. Ask God if he is real to show himself to you. You might actually get a answer. Stranger things have happened.

Appreciate the attempt to clarify, but to suggest one can't be empathetic to someone else's views based on a variable of deity worship, is misplaced.

But for my own clarification, I am not on the fence, I left religion in general. I remain unconvinced with the current evidence available that a deity exists. I am clear and calm with that position. I was devout for more than a decade, and asked god multiple times to reveal himself, and I actually thought he did a few times. But it was a combination of self deceit, confirmation basis, and social pressure that made me think that, in combination of reading the bible and concluding it was a product/inspired/written by man, not a deity.

 

[chrome]

Natural law says I can kill you for no other reason then testing out my bigger stick. Are you sure you don’t want people like me having a moral Base from God so if nothing else lines up with others believing in the same God?

So are you saying you need an ancient book to prevent you from killing others?

Or would you rather me be Muslim so a religion will allow me to rape your wife and daughter and kill anyone who don’t believe the same as me?

I'd be careful putting your religion ahead of any other religion without capturing the atrocities of christianity over the last 800+ years. It is easy to forget how it wielded its power over society, especially now that christianity decided to self-reform and be a bit gentler when compared to islam, which cant self reform (because its holy book deems it the perfect and final word of god.)

 

[Blutroop]

So are you saying you need an ancient book to prevent you from killing others?



I'd be careful putting your religion ahead of any other religion without capturing the atrocities of christianity over the last 800+ years. It is easy to forget how it wielded its power over society, especially now that christianity decided to self-reform and be a bit gentler when compared to islam, which cant self reform (because its holy book deems it the perfect and final word of god.)

I don’t conform to religion, I believe in God. There’s a difference.