Interesting rimfire cleaning theory and method

[dscl]

One method to use to get at the carbon ring is to take a .22 cal bore mop. It will fit. Soak it in cleaning solvent or, better still, a carbon remover like Bore Tech C4 Carbon remover or something similar. Push the bore mop fully into the chamber and let it sit there for a while. Cleaning with a bronze brush from breech to muzzle should follow. Use an appropriate bore guide at all times.

Sorry let me clarify my question. Some people have reported that not all bore mops fit in the Vudoo chamber. Was hoping someone who follows the procedure you outlined could provide a link or mention the brand mop they are using on their Vudoo.

 

[Williwaw]

Sorry let me clarify my question. Some people have reported that not all bore mops fit in the Vudoo chamber. Was hoping someone who follows the procedure you outlined could provide a link or mention the brand mop they are using on their Vudoo.

PRO-SHOT

 

[grauhanen]

Some people have reported that not all bore mops fit in the Vudoo chamber.

The Vudoo chamber takes .22LR ammo, preferably match. If match ammo fits in the chamber, so, too, will .22 rimfire bore mops.

There's nothing unusual about the internal dimensions of Vudoo's match chamber that will prevent the easy use of a .22 rimfire bore mop. If there's any continuing nagging doubt that .22 rimfire bore mops won't fit a .22LR chamber -- whether it's Vudoo or not -- follow Williwaw's advice and use Pro Shot .22 bore mops.

 

[Kapitan_Richthofen]

Just found this thread...

 

[629-4]

View attachment 7915094
Just found this thread...

Looks like Colbert is a thread killer

 

[Appalachian]

This is the best info on this thread. Some of you just don't know what a good barrel looks like and how it should shoot. Most of the .22 barrels we use are tapper lapped (the best match grade anyway) they will shoot from the get go like littlesister said. Keep it clean and they will perform like they should. Let things go and you will never know why you're not shooting well and by then it's to late. Keepem clean

Welcome back!

 

[Gleedus]

My Experience "backs up" the article mostly.
If you shoot occasionally vs very regular the results can be different. If I have a barrel sit over winter it takes a couple - few shots to wake back up. A daily or weekly shooter doesnt.
This is also ammo dependent. Running Eley I dont get carbon ring issues so dont clean chambers like in the article. (I do have one rifle that needs the chamber cleaned to stop the cold bore)

My observation is that the first few hundred rounds a clean barrel shoots great but velocities move. I then have a period were I get more fliers then normal it can be very discouraging. But around 1000-1500 rounds depending on barrel this goes away. It then shoots as good as when clean plus I get the added advantage of consistent velocity.
You could ask how much better SD. We all know ammo is the biggest factor so its hard to quantify. With the lot of Eley Match I'm currently using its around 2-3 fps better SD when using 50+ round samples. ES cant be use in a case like this as reliable data.
But other details like more consistent changes in velocity based on temp, zero not moving etc all add to consistency that is beneficial to our long range field matches. Particularly when its a small target match.

We can get all twisted out of sorts on what is best. BR and long range field matches require different kinds of consistency to excel at. To tell one or the other to adopt the others procedures such as cleaning or ammo testing is foolish because we have different goals.
I think it would be interesting because of the level of precision BR rifles have if a BR guy would run to 2000 rounds before cleaning and see what the results would be. But maybe for this to be useful it would require lot testing in a dirty bore? So again we come back to its a different game. Shooting bypod and bag prone I cant reliably see the difference at 50 yds between ammo thats shooting 3s vs 4s. BR guys probably can I dont know. BUT at 200 yards I can see a difference in a groups vertical SD at 200 yards if the groups velocity had a SD of 6 vs 8.
I should put in a list of exceptions here because well they exist! You wont beable to see these things with midgrade ammo. Even high end ammo with "funny" bullets wont cut it. Etc etc.

Most of all do what you enjoy and get out and shoot! Thats the biggest difference!

 

[MakeSawdust]

I'll jump in here for the sake of shits and giggles. My experience shooting rimfire is killing stuff and shooting prs type rimfire matches. I also utilize the rimx as a trainer as I have a 450 yard range out my back door. It is long enough to be long range with the .22 but not long enough to stretch out the centerfire stuff. My young daughters are also head over heels for the nrl22x type local matches. I have ZERO experience with paper shooting and .22lr.

We have one rimx that we share. It was purchased in July of 2020. I have not kept track, but we have gone through between 8 and 12 cases of ammo in that time. It has a Bartlein chambered by a gentleman that built his business being a good nrl shooter in centerfire and giving back to the shooting community. He asked a few basic questions and followed people's advice. I believe the barrel I have is one of the first handful of rimfire barrels he chambered. I have not had any feeding issues and the fanciest ammo I have shot through the gun is sk standard+. When it was brand spanking we shot some groups at 50 yards. They were incredible. I finally figured out how to post pics. The square is 1" and there are separate groups with the aiming points being the corners. I will also add that I am not a good group shooter. The other group was shot by my daughter at 8 years old. The round that is out of the group she said the trigger broke before she was ready. This was all with sk+. Groups were shot bipod and rear bag.

I have cleaned the gun one time, about 2k or 3k rounds in. 2 weeks ago I won a heavily advertised 1 day "cash match" and my daughter took top youth with it. In order to do so I had to hit multiple targets that were 1 moa and sometimes smaller, sometimes from wobbly positions. The gun has not been cleaned in 10s of thousands of rounds.

After winning the match I was out of that lot # and had to change. Upon zeroing, the gun was still shooting sub 3/8" at 50 yards and probably sub 1/4" if I really tried. (My shooting bench was a pallet balanced on an old hay feeder). Some lots have definitely been better than others.

I will not claim that the gun is capable of winning a benchrest match, the shooter definitely is not. However, I will say with pretty high confidence that it ain't holding me back in .22 prs type matches.

I did notice it took a couple shots for poi to settle in the one time I cleaned it, and the velocity took a box or so of ammo to stabilize.

My main purpose for having a .22 is to use as a trainer and for my kids to shoot. It is cheaper and requires less time in reloading and cleaning than centerfire. The no cleaning method works for field shooting. (I understand this is a sample of one). I will not say that it will work for every discipline, or that cleaning regularly will not work. I treat it the way I do because rimfire is my "play time."

 

[littlesister]

I'll jump in here for the sake of shits and giggles. My experience shooting rimfire is killing stuff and shooting prs type rimfire matches. I also utilize the rimx as a trainer as I have a 450 yard range out my back door. It is long enough to be long range with the .22 but not long enough to stretch out the centerfire stuff. My young daughters are also head over heels for the nrl22x type local matches. I have ZERO experience with paper shooting and .22lr.

We have one rimx that we share. It was purchased in July of 2020. I have not kept track, but we have gone through between 8 and 12 cases of ammo in that time. It has a Bartlein chambered by a gentleman that built his business being a good nrl shooter in centerfire and giving back to the shooting community. He asked a few basic questions and followed people's advice. I believe the barrel I have is one of the first handful of rimfire barrels he chambered. I have not had any feeding issues and the fanciest ammo I have shot through the gun is sk standard+. When it was brand spanking we shot some groups at 50 yards. They were incredible. I finally figured out how to post pics. The square is 1" and there are separate groups with the aiming points being the corners. I will also add that I am not a good group shooter. The other group was shot by my daughter at 8 years old. The round that is out of the group she said the trigger broke before she was ready. This was all with sk+. Groups were shot bipod and rear bag.

I have cleaned the gun one time, about 2k or 3k rounds in. 2 weeks ago I won a heavily advertised 1 day "cash match" and my daughter took top youth with it. In order to do so I had to hit multiple targets that were 1 moa and sometimes smaller, sometimes from wobbly positions. The gun has not been cleaned in 10s of thousands of rounds.

After winning the match I was out of that lot # and had to change. Upon zeroing, the gun was still shooting sub 3/8" at 50 yards and probably sub 1/4" if I really tried. (My shooting bench was a pallet balanced on an old hay feeder). Some lots have definitely been better than others.

I will not claim that the gun is capable of winning a benchrest match, the shooter definitely is not. However, I will say with pretty high confidence that it ain't holding me back in .22 prs type matches.

I did notice it took a couple shots for poi to settle in the one time I cleaned it, and the velocity took a box or so of ammo to stabilize.

My main purpose for having a .22 is to use as a trainer and for my kids to shoot. It is cheaper and requires less time in reloading and cleaning than centerfire. The no cleaning method works for field shooting. (I understand this is a sample of one). I will not say that it will work for every discipline, or that cleaning regularly will not work. I treat it the way I do because rimfire is my "play time."

Well, It's obvious that you're not serious about the 22lr. I think you'll find that most of the shooters on this forum are very serious about their 22s. When you pay 5K for a gun and scope combination you're not buying it for a trainer!!! To say a 22 doesn't require as much cleaning as centerfire couldn't be farther from the truth. Other than black powder it's probably the dirtiest round you can shoot. I don't understand how anyone shooting a soft lead bullet coated with lube and primer compound that contains glass particles could ever consider not cleaning. For those of you who might be buying into this "no clean" nonsense. go to Eleys website and read their take on barrel maintenance. They fire hundreds of thousands of 22lr rounds every year. If they don't know, who does!

 

[Gleedus]

Well, It's obvious that you're not serious about the 22lr. I think you'll find that most of the shooters on this forum are very serious about their 22s. When you pay 5K for a gun and scope combination you're not buying it for a trainer!!! To say a 22 doesn't require as much cleaning as centerfire couldn't be farther from the truth. Other than black powder it's probably the dirtiest round you can shoot. I don't understand how anyone shooting a soft lead bullet coated with lube and primer compound that contains glass particles could ever consider not cleaning. For those of you who might be buying into this "no clean" nonsense. go to Eleys website and read their take on barrel maintenance. They fire hundreds of thousands of 22lr rounds every year. If they don't know, who does!

The same kind of reply could be made back to you from a different perspective. But I dont think that kind of a reply is conducive to discussion though and tends to turn a conversation sour.
People are looking at BR when they make statements like that. Its not comparable to PRS in what matters.
I've tried both, I dont shoot BR so I dont say anything on that front. But for longer range I have repeatedly found that fouled barrels 1000+ rounds shoot more consistently. I'm not saying never clean your chamber or muzzle just talking bore.
Consistency I define in part as
Average velocity not changing
Better SDs
"Zero" not moving
Less affect from temp changes
Fewer fliers

The fine print, not all barrels respond exactly the same but in general I find that clean my rifles shoot awesome groups but velocity changes. After 200-400 rounds groups start to open up often as fliers.
Velocity stabilizes from 100-200. If I shoot enough rounds till the velocity stabilizes before a match I will finish a match with fliers. To clean part way though a match is not a option. I have poorish groups till 1000-1200 rounds. My 50 yard groups are not quite what clean is but all my best 200 yard groups are from a fouled bore.

Looking at BR I understand why the difference. You can clean before each card foul with sighters and have a super consistent POI. If the average velocity from rounds 10 through 35 is different then 110-135 nobody cares because you'll clean the bore before that.
Cheers.

 

[TRP173]

Anyone ever use a ultrasonic cleaner on the chamber area?

 

[grauhanen]

As a conclusion to this thread, readers may remember the name Lones Wigger, who knew something about .22LR shooting. He was admired by his fellow shooters, and was described in his 2017 NYT obituary by a two-time Olympic medalist as at the top of the lists of best shooters: “Not only is Wigger the only name at the top of these lists; no other shooter even comes close.” (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/obituaries/lone-wigger-jr-dead-champion-rifle-shooter.html)

In 1984, Wigger gave this advice about cleaning:

I feel very strongly about cleaning a smallbore rifle. I have, on several different occasions, had it proven to me that when a barrel fouls and started to lead, it will lose accuracy. After you have cleaned that barrel with a brush, solvent and patches, you can lie back down, shoot a couple of fouling rounds and immediately shoot the small groups you should be shooting.

How often should you clean your rifle?
I think you should clean the gun after you shoot a box of ammunition. It probably doesn't need to be cleaned any more often than that. Some barrels seem to take longer to lead than others, and you can get by for a longer time before you lose accuracy. I prefer not to take chances so I clean regularly.

The lesson was once again proven to me at a small match I shot in preparation for Camp Perry. When I started shooting unacceptable groups at 100 yards, I got up, cleaned the rifle, and returned to shoot two tight 10-X groups, about a third of the size of the groups I had been shooting. That's pretty convincing evidence that barrels need to be cleaned.

Do you use a brass or nylon brush?
A bronze or brass brush is fine, but do not use steel. For a period of time, I thought you shouldn't use a brush because it might damage the barrel. Pat McMillan, the barrel maker, told me that benchrest shooters used a brass brush and that you can brush a barrel all day long without hurting it. At that point, I began to use a brush again.

See https://www.ssusa.org/content/how-often-should-you-clean-your-smallbore-rifle/

When advocates of never cleaning a .22LR rifle garner the respect of as many serious shooters as Lones Wigger, those views may be taken more seriously.

As for what discipline is shot, the lesson is to clean more often rather than less.

 

[Gleedus]

How does he account for velocity increase going from a clean bore as if fouls through the duration of a match?

 

[carbonbased]

As a conclusion to this thread, readers may remember the name Lones Wigger, who knew something about .22LR shooting. He was admired by his fellow shooters, and was described in his 2017 NYT obituary by a two-time Olympic medalist as at the top of the lists of best shooters: “Not only is Wigger the only name at the top of these lists; no other shooter even comes close.” (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/obituaries/lone-wigger-jr-dead-champion-rifle-shooter.html)

In 1984, Wigger gave this advice about cleaning:

I feel very strongly about cleaning a smallbore rifle. I have, on several different occasions, had it proven to me that when a barrel fouls and started to lead, it will lose accuracy. After you have cleaned that barrel with a brush, solvent and patches, you can lie back down, shoot a couple of fouling rounds and immediately shoot the small groups you should be shooting.

How often should you clean your rifle?
I think you should clean the gun after you shoot a box of ammunition. It probably doesn't need to be cleaned any more often than that. Some barrels seem to take longer to lead than others, and you can get by for a longer time before you lose accuracy. I prefer not to take chances so I clean regularly.

The lesson was once again proven to me at a small match I shot in preparation for Camp Perry. When I started shooting unacceptable groups at 100 yards, I got up, cleaned the rifle, and returned to shoot two tight 10-X groups, about a third of the size of the groups I had been shooting. That's pretty convincing evidence that barrels need to be cleaned.

Do you use a brass or nylon brush?
A bronze or brass brush is fine, but do not use steel. For a period of time, I thought you shouldn't use a brush because it might damage the barrel. Pat McMillan, the barrel maker, told me that benchrest shooters used a brass brush and that you can brush a barrel all day long without hurting it. At that point, I began to use a brush again.

See https://www.ssusa.org/content/how-often-should-you-clean-your-smallbore-rifle/

When advocates of never cleaning a .22LR rifle garner the respect of as many serious shooters as Lones Wigger, those views may be taken more seriously.

As for what discipline is shot, the lesson is to clean more often rather than less.

In the type of small bore shooting Wigger did, do they have time to clean between positions?

I ask because it sort of seems like there are two cleaning camps here…

• one camp wants the most extreme accuracy and extreme precision (.1s right in the 10x), extreme consistency, they shoot low volumes at a time, and they have time to clean between their “heats” or matches during the day. This group shoots the very top-end rimfire ammo in specific lots that they’ve tested out. They shoot in more controlled condiditons (bench, 3-positions with leathers, low/no wind, etc…less variability).
• the second camp requires high accuracy but less precision because their targets are steel and bigger (usually). Not sure what would constitute as a very very fine rimfire rifle in this group, but .5-.75 MOA perhaps? They want pretty darn good consistency; they have little/no time to clean during matches. They may shoot top-end match ammo, but some aren’t as wrapped around the axle here, especially with testing lot numbers. They shoot at higher volumes. Their shooting conditions are much more variable and unstable, and they have significant time pressure.

I guess what I am getting at is that for the latter group, the little-to-no bore cleaning might actually work better than a gun that starts sparkling clean but starts having fliers mid-PRS match.

Other people have said the same thing in this thread but in different ways.

 

[carbonbased]

A more succinct way to say what I just said above is:

Hypothesis:
Given the same accurate/precise gun, what both camps really want is consistency. They have different accuracy/precision requirements, but it seems one may achieve acceptable consistency (different for each camp) in at least two ways:

• cleaning frequently (sub-50 rds) or,
• not cleaning the bore much (but cleaning the chamber when a carbon ring starts).

 

[grauhanen]

Whether it's BR or something else, the goal is always as much accuracy or precision as is possible under the conditions of the shooting discipline.

The advice to clean as often as possible always remains sound. No one can clean more often than possible. It's as simple as that.

 

[Gleedus]

Whether it's BR or something else, the goal is always as much accuracy or precision as is possible under the conditions of the shooting discipline.

The advice to clean as often as possible always remains sound. No one can clean more often than possible. It's as simple as that.

But how do you account for velocity increase?

 

[carbonbased]

Whether it's BR or something else, the goal is always as much accuracy or precision as is possible under the conditions of the shooting discipline.

Hmmmm…I agree with your goal, but the counter-intuitive hypothesis I made suggests that, if true and only in select disciplines, less cleaning may increase accuracy/precision.

I’m not saying it’s true. But if true, it would explain the actual results people have using the two wildly different cleaning regimes.

And to restate: I am not claiming I made this idea up. Just restating, in a different way, what others have already said.

Edit: someone needs to draw a graph explaining this, as I think that would sink in better. I’m grocery shopping so it can’t be me!

 

[Gleedus]

100%!! there tends to be two camps here but generally both people are coming from two different points of view. Both are right yet wrong for the other.
I'm not sure how you could graph it out. I'm more of a numbers person then a visual.

But lets say from clean to 150 rounds my rifle shoots in the 3s. Around 150 I get more fliers then normal so ya... but I run my rifle in practice till I have 1500 rounds now I get no fliers but its a shitty shooting 1/2" gun now. Fair?
We will calculate expected groups at 200 yards (very common distance at our matches) as follows.
Velocity ES+ BC variation+ Group moa at 50.
Velocity ES is 25 fps or 1.9"
BC variation is 2% +/- so 0.5"
Clean 0.6 moa so 1.2"
Clean total = 3.6"

Dirty 1 moa so 2"
Dirty total = 4.4"

The difference is 0.8"

From round 5 to 100 I'd expect a 20-30 fps increase in velocity. A 1.5"-2.3" change in POI this turns your 3.6" group into a 5.1"-5.9" group in relation to POA.

Another factor to include is velocity change based on temperature. I have found a well fouled barrel to have a more consistent velocity as temp changes and more predictable velocity. Add in a 5 or 10 fps difference in actual velocity from your predicted velocity change through a match day and your difference from POA is +/- again depending on which way your off but how do you know?

What about velocity SD? There are a number of factors that affect SD and one of those for me has been a well fouled barrel. A 7 vs 9 SD will show up at 200 yards. That measly 2 fps which if we work back into our original calculation on group size rather then using a fixed ES would make our group size very similar. Depending on the level of certainty used to calculate the group sizes would be indistinguishable from each other.
Now all of a sudden those beautiful 50 yard groups clean are of no advantage in a longer range match. On the flip side the consistency and predictability of velocity in the fouled barrel make a real difference.

Having tested a clean barrel vs fouled at 200 yards many times I see no significant difference in group sizes. In fact all my best groups have been after 2000 plus rounds of fouling. But not enough to be what I'd call a statistically viable proof that dirty shoots better. Its the day to day no matter what weather consistency that makes the difference.

There are exceptions of course to this running a rifle "dirty" thing. CCI is one of those. And quite possibly others. I just run Eley any more so one lube. But Eley or Lapua both are good.

Alright now we can spin the story the other way hows my 0.5" gun going to hold out in a BR match? That 0.3" clean barrel is going to absolutely make my dirty rifle look stupid! So obviously I'm going to clean my rifle squeaky clean before such a match. Well actually in all honestly I wouldnt because then I'd have to get another couple bricks down range to get my consistency before the next PRS match...

 

[littlepod]

I've been trying out this theory for the past 1000 rounds now. Only cleaning the chamber. My velocity is definitely stable which is great compared to it speeding up over 50-100 rounds.

Between rounds 500-800 it kind of sucked but I weathered through it.

I shot a 6x5 today with Eley. It wasn't my best, averaging only .25" but it was acceptable.

My velocities stayed consistent throughout after the 7 rounds of fouling from my clean chamber.

I was getting fed up with Eley problems in Vudoo so I then switched to Lapua. First round was off, but the next 10 were great in a 1/4" group.

So far I'm pretty happy with it. It's quicker to clean with just the carbon ring removal every 300 rounds and my velocities are consistent and not having to shoot 50 rounds to get it where I want it stable.

I'll keep on testing over the next few months doing this.

 

[littlepod]

I also noticed that my velocity swings were also less from temperature. We had a hot weekend here in the 90s and my velocities didn't soar as high as they did when I had a clean barrel.

 

[Emerson0311]

I also noticed that my velocity swings were also less from temperature. We had a hot weekend here in the 90s and my velocities didn't soar as high as they did when I had a clean barrel.

That is not something I had heard talked about before, but now that you mention it, my velocities have seemed to become more consistent with a dirty bore, with less temperature induced swings. I recently stated getting first shots in a string going an extra 1” left at 100, so I finally cleaned the bore after several K shots. The flyer came back into the group and after a box or so the groups tightened up.

 

[6.5SH]

The cheap and easy method for cleaning the carbon ring in a .22 is a Q-tip. Press the front of it to fatten it up, saturate in C4 and insert into the chamber. Once you get the depth right leave it sit for as long as you like, even an hour plus won't hurt anything and depending on your humidity it will still be wet.

Using the dry end and maybe 1 more Q-tip and the chamber should be clean. Use a wet patch with C4 or dry to push the chunks of carbon and primer residue out of the bore.

If you are using a bore scope is easy to see what each step does for you.

 

[grauhanen]

How does he account for velocity increase going from a clean bore as if fouls through the duration of a match?

But how do you account for velocity increase?

With regard to your question, are you suggesting that .22LR experiences a general increase in MV as more shots are fired through a cleaned barrel?

 

[Gleedus]

With regard to your question, are you suggesting that .22LR experiences a general increase in MV as more shots are fired through a cleaned barrel?

Yes that is my experience. If I clean totally clean my first couple are higher then it starts at about 1075 and will climb to 1100 with the lot of Eley match I'm currently using.

 

[grauhanen]

Hmmmm…I agree with your goal, but the counter-intuitive hypothesis I made suggests that, if true and only in select disciplines, less cleaning may increase accuracy/precision.

Your words "that only in select disciplines, less cleaning may increase accuracy/precision" suggest that the relationship between cleaning and accuracy/precision is discipline dependent.

If this is true, the rifle bore and the ammo must be aware of which shooting discipline for which they are being used.

 

[grauhanen]

Yes that is my experience. If I clean totally clean my first couple are higher then it starts at about 1075 and will climb to 1100 with the lot of Eley match I'm currently using.

Yes, first couple of shots through a clean bore are often high. That's because the absence of lubrication causes initial friction to raise the pressure and increase the velocity. Once the barrel becomes fouled with lubricant and the detritus of the cartridge, the velocity will settle down and remain withing the extreme spread of that ammo.

If a variety of ammo was chronographed after initial fouling of a cleaned barrel, the subequent rounds will fall into the normal range of MVs associated with that lot of ammo. To know what the extreme spread of an ammo is, even if it is a top tier variety such as Eley Match or Tenex, it's necessary to chronograph a box or more.

In the case described, with Eley Match starting at 1075 fps and increasing to 1100 fps, that represents part of the normal velocity spread of that ammo. If some rounds are faster than 1075, others will be slower.

 

[Gleedus]

Yes, first couple of shots through a clean bore are often high. That's because the absence of lubrication causes initial friction to raise the pressure and increase the velocity. Once the barrel becomes fouled with lubricant and the detritus of the cartridge, the velocity will settle down and remain withing the extreme spread of that ammo.

If a variety of ammo was chronographed after initial fouling of a cleaned barrel, the subequent rounds will fall into the normal range of MVs associated with that lot of ammo. To know what the extreme spread of an ammo is, even if it is a top tier variety such as Eley Match or Tenex, it's necessary to chronograph a box or more.

In the case described, with Eley Match starting at 1075 fps and increasing to 1100 fps, that represents part of the normal velocity spread of that ammo. If some rounds are faster than 1075, others will be slower.

I agree that this is within a typical ES. I also am in the camp of needing large sample sizes to accurately check 22lr velocity. If you start shooting and record every velocity from 5-200 you will see what I mean. The average of the first 50 is slower then the last 50.
I use minimum 50 rounds when checking velocity generally 100. Using this method if I record velocity with rifle and ammo at a different temps coming back later and retesting at the same temp my average velocity from a box is typically with in 1 fps of a previous test. This is very important to me because if its not predictable it affects my drop.
Once I start getting a carbon ring build up I will begin getting a velocity spike on my first cold bore shot of 56 fps on this lot. The increase is very consistent and so far has shown a lower ES and SD if I combine all my cold bore shots then normal warm spreads. A topic in itself... how long it takes to have a cold bore depends on how bad the ring is. Clean the ring and problem is solved. My first 5 will land in line with average.

Edit to add:
As the bore fouls it essentially creates a smaller bore diameter increasing resistance. This equals a hotter burn increasing velocity and reducing SDs is my current thought.

 

[littlepod]

Here's my chronoing from a clean bore -

I clumped them into 30 shot chunks. Rifle gained about 10 fps in the first 100 rounds.

Shot #'s	STD	AVG	MIN	MAX	ES
1-30	8.957691102	1049.966667	1026	1076	50
11-40	7.4848506	1052.666667	1042	1076	34
21-50	6.589437734	1053.6	1044	1069	25
31-60	8.140998837	1056	1042	1073	31
41-70	9.602202812	1059.066667	1042	1083	41
51-80	9.801243177	1062.933333	1042	1086	44
61-90	8.860346897	1063.666667	1049	1086	37
71-100	8.60526436	1063.466667	1049	1086	37
81-100	7.843703475	1062.05	1049	1080	31

 

[carbonbased]

Your words "that only in select disciplines, less cleaning may increase accuracy/precision" suggest that the relationship between cleaning and accuracy/precision is discipline dependent.

If this is true, the rifle bore and the ammo must be aware of which shooting discipline for which they are being used.

Let’s see…I can see that my omission of the word “acceptable” might be messing you up. I had included that word earlier here (emph. added):

Hypothesis:
Given the same accurate/precise gun, what both camps really want is consistency. They have different accuracy/precision requirements, but it seems one may achieve acceptable consistency (different for each camp) in at least two ways:

• cleaning frequently (sub-50 rds) or,
• not cleaning the bore much (but cleaning the chamber when a carbon ring starts).

So, here’s a better formulated paragraph:
"The counter-intuitive hypothesis I made suggests that, if true and only in select disciplines, less cleaning may increase acceptable-per-discipline accuracy/precision."

What I’m getting at is rimfire PRS shooters do not need as accurate/precise of a rifle as a BR shooter, and if one takes into account shot strings etc there is evidence to indicate cleaning less lifts the rifle into its best accuracy/precision “zone” by keeping it there longer (much longer).

Does this modification help?

Edit: I just realized I emphasized the wrong phrase in my self-quote above. Fixed it.

 

[Gleedus]

Here's my chronoing from a clean bore -

I clumped them into 30 shot chunks. Rifle gained about 10 fps in the first 100 rounds.

Shot #'s	STD	AVG	MIN	MAX	ES
1-30	8.957691102	1049.966667	1026	1076	50
11-40	7.4848506	1052.666667	1042	1076	34
21-50	6.589437734	1053.6	1044	1069	25
31-60	8.140998837	1056	1042	1073	31
41-70	9.602202812	1059.066667	1042	1083	41
51-80	9.801243177	1062.933333	1042	1086	44
61-90	8.860346897	1063.666667	1049	1086	37
71-100	8.60526436	1063.466667	1049	1086	37
81-100	7.843703475	1062.05	1049	1080	31

What temp and where are you at now with over 1000 rounds?
I'm guessing that was with lapua?

 

[littlepod]

That chrono string was at 48 degrees. Yesterday at 88 degrees I was at 1082 average.

I expected to be in the 1090s from previous experience of hot weather.

 

[littlepod]

What temp and where are you at now with over 1000 rounds?
I'm guessing that was with lapua?

Yes that was with Lapua Midas+. I'm not happy with the ES of this ammo but it sure groups well at 50 and 100.

 

[carbonbased]

It doesn’t matter if people agree or disagree with the hypothesis, but I want to make sure people understand the concept.

IMAGINE THE FOLLOWING

Pretend If:

• Every time a rimfire rifle is thoroughly cleaned, it becomes less accurate/precise
• It takes 1000 rds to re-attain previous groups
• Those earlier groups were tight enough to win in a certain shooting discipline

And if that shooting discipline:

• Has stages that require 50 rds shot in succession
• Disallows cleaning mid-stage
• Disallows shooting of any form between stages (to refoul the bore)

Then:

• A shooter in said discipline should not clean between stages or even between matches unless they can shoot another 1000 rounds (carbon ring removal excepted)
• They should wait until acceptable-per-discipline accuracy/precision degrades before cleaning (unless they can’t help themselves lol)

It may be that the accuracy/precision of a rimfire rifle with 1000 rds down the pipe is not good enough to win in BR, but is good enough to win in PRS, and that cleaning frequently in PRS leds to lots of fliers because shooters can’t refoul the bore to acceptable standards in the time that they have.

And: acceptable accuracy/precision are RELATIVE (not absolute) concepts here. Relative to certain shooting disciplines.

 

[littlepod]

It doesn’t matter if people agree or disagree with the hypothesis, but I want to make sure people understand the concept.

IMAGINE THE FOLLOWING

Pretend If:

• Every time a rimfire rifle is thoroughly cleaned, it becomes less accurate/precise
• It takes 1000 rds to re-attain previous groups
• Those earlier groups were tight enough to win in a certain shooting discipline

And if that shooting discipline:

• Has stages that require 50 rds shot in succession
• Disallows cleaning mid-stage
• Disallows shooting of any form between stages (to refoul the bore)

Then:

• A shooter in said discipline should not clean between stages or even between matches unless they can shoot another 1000 rounds (carbon ring removal accepted)
• They should wait until acceptable-per-discipline accuracy/precision degrades before cleaning (unless they can’t help themselves lol)

It may be that the accuracy/precision of a rimfire rifle with 1000 rds down the pipe is not good enough to win in BR, but is good enough to win in PRS, and that cleaning frequently in PRS leds to lots of fliers because shooters can’t refoul the bore to acceptable standards in the time that they have.

Exactly this... I need a string of 350 rounds that I can find acceptable and consistent. I fly out for a 2 day field match and I'm not getting sighters. I shoot for score every round. So I want to be in a zone that's acceptable and consistent. I'm hoping this 1000+ round seasoning gets the there.

 

[Gleedus]

Yes that was with Lapua Midas+. I'm not happy with the ES of this ammo but it sure groups well at 50 and 100.

I see 30-45 on lots of 100 with X-act, Midus+ center X for me has been in the 50s

Eley typically has been better for me.

One of the guys around here runs lapua and is careful about checking things and has found less cold bore effects with lapua. Maybe the lighter lube causes less velocity change as it fouls? As none of the lapua in my testing has been stellar past 100 yards I haven't done as extensive testing with it. So my results are largely Eley based.
Thats the problem with making absolute statements... so many things make a difference. So I speak only on what I have tested and observed.

 

[littlepod]

I see 30-45 on lots of 100 with X-act, Midus+ center X for me has been in the 50s

Eley typically has been better for me.

One of the guys around here runs lapua and is careful about checking things and has found less cold bore effects with lapua. Maybe the lighter lube causes less velocity change as it fouls? As none of the lapua in my testing has been stellar past 100 yards I haven't done as extensive testing with it. So my results are largely Eley based.
Thats the problem with making absolute statements... so many things make a difference. So I speak only on what I have tested and observed.

At 100+ yards my Eley tends to always do better as you mentioned it's much more a factor of ES. I have gone through 2 lots of Eley Match EPS so far and they have always had an SD of 5-6, whereas my Lapua ammo has always had an SD of 8-10. On the ES side, I generally have been doing chronos of 30-40 rounds and my Eley has been around 18-28. Lapua has been around 30-45.

That being said, my Eley ammo tends to have a lot more cold bore effects, and the cold bore effects are pretty bad, like usually +50 FPS. 2 days ago, with a chamber having about 200 rounds on it, the first shot was 1142, then the next rounds were 1093 avg. I think their lube just kind of sticks and hardens in the chamber over night. During a match, I need to remember to clean the chamber face every 100 rounds or I risk getting a round stuck from too much lube build up/stickiness. A big glob of that wax will build up and then get pushed in with a round and then the round gets stuck. I haven't had any rounds ever get stuck with Lapua and after 100s of rounds of Lapua, my chamber face is always clean.

I just need to find a lot of Lapua that can get their ES down... I also want to send it back in to Lapua for testing with the 1000 round seasoning on the barrel versus the last time I sent it in on a clean barrel. I did hear that Killough's testing of Eley ammo, they clean your barrel every time they switch lots during lot testing. I'm not sure how clean they're doing it, or if they only do the chamber though.

 

[Gleedus]

At 100+ yards my Eley tends to always do better as you mentioned it's much more a factor of ES. I have gone through 2 lots of Eley Match EPS so far and they have always had an SD of 5-6, whereas my Lapua ammo has always had an SD of 8-10. On the ES side, I generally have been doing chronos of 30-40 rounds and my Eley has been around 18-28. Lapua has been around 30-45.

That being said, my Eley ammo tends to have a lot more cold bore effects, and the cold bore effects are pretty bad, like usually +50 FPS. 2 days ago, with a chamber having about 200 rounds on it, the first shot was 1142, then the next rounds were 1093 avg. I think their lube just kind of sticks and hardens in the chamber over night. During a match, I need to remember to clean the chamber face every 100 rounds or I risk getting a round stuck from too much lube build up/stickiness. A big glob of that wax will build up and then get pushed in with a round and then the round gets stuck. I haven't had any rounds ever get stuck with Lapua and after 100s of rounds of Lapua, my chamber face is always clean.

I just need to find a lot of Lapua that can get their ES down... I also want to send it back in to Lapua for testing with the 1000 round seasoning on the barrel versus the last time I sent it in on a clean barrel. I did hear that Killough's testing of Eley ammo, they clean your barrel every time they switch lots during lot testing. I'm not sure how clean they're doing it, or if they only do the chamber though.

Is that in the vudoo?

I've found running a headspace 0.002" over rim thickness to be good for SD and reliable feeding. Still doing head space testing. I currently dont find any evidence that head space tuning has a effect with heavy profile barrels. Maybe with lighter barrels? Other then SDs

I've had no problems with wax buildup causing issues in the RimX or Deuce. As you can see I do get buildup but with the both the breach design will tend to push the wax buildup away from the chamber.

 

[littlepod]

Yep, this is with a Vudoo. I had the same thing on a CZ as well where the tiniest little film of wax would build up after every round and eventually it'll fall off, but in some rare occasions that build up gets pushed in between the rim/chamber and cause either an extraction issue or even an ignition issue. All I know is that I have run thousands of rounds of Lapua without any issue, but have had a half dozen in the last 750 rounds of Eley. So for now I'll switch back to Lapua while waiting for my new build to get done.

 

[spife7980]

That being said, my Eley ammo tends to have a lot more cold bore effects, and the cold bore effects are pretty bad, like usually +50 FPS. 2 days ago, with a chamber having about 200 rounds on it, the first shot was 1142, then the next rounds were 1093 avg. I think their lube just kind of sticks and hardens in the chamber over night. During a match, I need to remember to clean the chamber face every 100 rounds or I risk getting a round stuck from too much lube build up/stickiness. A big glob of that wax will build up and then get pushed in with a round and then the round gets stuck. I haven't had any rounds ever get stuck with Lapua and after 100s of rounds of Lapua, my chamber face is always clean.

eley is waxed and lapua is oiled

 

[carbonbased]

eley is waxed and lapua is oiled

Ok, that statement is so rife with potential double-entendres lol

 

[spife7980]

Ok, that statement is so rife with potential double-entendres lol

I actually tried finding a good gif but I couldnt find anything... appropriate.

 

[orkan]

I actually tried finding a good gif but I couldnt find anything... appropriate.

One of the greatest movies ever.

 

[grauhanen]

Waxed is sometimes linked to Brazilians, oiled to something else.

That aside, it's worth keeping in mind that when observing increases in MV with an increasing may be associated with temperature increases. For example, a box of ammo shot as the morning warms by even 5 or 10 degrees F will often have faster average MVs than a box of the same lot shot earlier.

It's also worth keeping in mind that when comparing the chronograph data for groups of shots within a larger number of shots there are going to be variations in MV averages, SD numbers, and ES ranges. Parts of the entire string may not look like the entire string.

To illustrate, the first half of a box of ammo can give results that make it look somewhat different from those of the second half. And with ammo that has an ES that's on the high side, say more than 30 - 35 fps, two halves of the same box may look like they're from different lots. One or two very high or low MVs in either half can render the results confusing.

Generally speaking, once the bore is appropriately fouled after cleaning, MVs will remain within the expected ES of the ammo. An increasing number of shots doesn't itself result in increased MVs. There's no reason for that to happen. Temperature increases will cause MVs to increase.

 

[littlesister]

Is that in the vudoo?

I've found running a headspace 0.002" over rim thickness to be good for SD and reliable feeding. Still doing head space testing. I currently dont find any evidence that head space tuning has a effect with heavy profile barrels. Maybe with lighter barrels? Other then SDs

I've had no problems with wax buildup causing issues in the RimX or Deuce. As you can see I do get buildup but with the both the breach design will tend to push the wax buildup away from the chamber.

View attachment 7924207

Playing with head spacing is really a waste of time. Numerous test have proven that head spacing has little if any effect on accuracy. .043 and forget it. This picture appears to show a chamber with a cone breach. They don't build up lube as easily as a conventional flat breach with extractor groves but they are more easily damaged. I've seen Vudoos with both types, Cone and conventinal.

 

[Gleedus]

@grauhanen you make some very good pointers for guys new to 22lr who are exploring this. It can be very frustrating and miss leading if all bases are not covered!

Velocity increase during a test is a real concern. Temperature increases velocity quite a bit with some ammo. The lot of Eley I'm useing right now with a well fouled barrel has a average velocity of 1092fps at -5⁰c and at 20⁰c I'm at 1098. This is multiple boxes of ammo at different temps. Ammo and rifle being the same temp. I think its worth noting that the only accurate way to do this is having rifle and all at the ambient temperature your testing. Basically if you want to test -20 you have to put your rifle and ammo outside and "chill" before testing. Anyhow long way to say that a 5⁰ difference is not skewing my results. This is also the most stable lot I've had. In testing SK ammo I would expect a 30 fps change over the same temperature change.

Also like you noted using small sample sizes even 20 rounds can give very misleading info. It doesnt feel like so many years ago I was frustrated wondering why my velocity increased at a lower temperature if you want to test things seriously you have to record it all. Same thing as the guys who claim 1 moa at 200 all day.

You actually might be right about the adequately fouled. Just that number is 1300 not 5 in this case.

Foaling can and does increase the muzzle velocity in my barrels.
There is a viable explanation for why this happens. Tighter bore. The fouling creates a smaller usable bore diameter increasing velocity. The same way barrels made with tighter bores shoot faster.

Another factor to all of this is if a 22lr bore is smoother it will not foul as quickly so it may take more rounds for my barrel to settle in then yours.

Another thing I really wonder is have you tested this for yourself? Do you have actual personal data on your barrel and ammo? If so I cant and wont argue with your results in your barrel with that lot of ammo. I've tested this multiple times in multiple rifles recording every shot because I want to know what makes my rifles consistent for a 200+ round match.

 

[Gleedus]

Playing with head spacing is really a waste of time. Numerous test have proven that head spacing has little if any effect on accuracy. .043 and forget it. This picture appears to show a chamber with a cone breach. They don't build up lube as easily as a conventional flat breach with extractor groves but they are more easily damaged. I've seen Vudoos with both types, Cone and conventinal.

Thats been my results so far. Nothing even maybe changed. I always do a test multiple times but in this case it was so the same I'm not sure its worth it.

I didnt know you could do a true coned breach in a vudoo with out dryfire concerns. The RimX typically has the flat and a slight cone. I rebarreled with a true coned breach in mine now and It can cause issues with dryfire.
If I can do that with a Vudoo effectively then

 

[grauhanen]

There is a viable explanation for why this happens. Tighter bore. The fouling creates a smaller usable bore diameter increasing velocity. The same way barrels made with tighter bores shoot faster.

Is the bore on your rifle tighter than those on other rifles?

Bores made to CIP specifications for .22LR have smaller dimensions than those for bore made to SAAMI specifications. Of course, some custom barrels may have bores that don't conform to either.

 

[Gleedus]

Is the bore on your rifle tighter than those on other rifles?

Bores made to CIP specifications for .22LR have smaller dimensions than those for bore made to SAAMI specifications. Of course, some custom barrels may have bores that don't conform to either.

I'm not referring to the diameter you start with. (I'm using custom barrels) I dont think that matters in this discussion. Its the fouling as it builds up in the first rounds that I'm suggesting increases the velocity because the added film of lead and lube cause it to act like a slightly tighter bore.
A tighter bore starts out faster all else being equal but would still speedup.

 

[Hoser]

I have a Lilja 16 twist tightbore that I shot a lot of F-Class practice with at the Olympic Training Center.

I would fire 10-15 shots to get warmed up and get the clean bore dirty. Then I would shoot 60 shots for record. Things stayed tight and steady with zero fliers for two matches.

Like clockwork around the 125-150 round mark I would start getting fliers that were way off call. With the lighting there and my scope zoomed into about 50 power (S&B 12-50) I could watch every bullet go into the rubber of the electronic target.

I tried to just skip cleaning but the fliers never went away.

Clean it and suddenly I was good.

My Vudoos with Ace, Bartlien and Shilen barrels dont do it nearly as bad as this Lilja. But cleaning doesent take more than a few minutes and it keeps things consistent. So why wait for things to go to shit.