Is 44gr H3450 in a 6.5 creed too much?

[Jack Master]

I got a new rifle and started reloading 6.5 creedmore. I loaded 10 rounds with progressive powder charges for pressure testing and getting a relative velocity for 140ELDs and 130ELDs each. Below are the loads and speeds.

Question 1: I fell like the 44gr of H4350 is higher than most people are using for 140 Elds. Is it too high? The case is full just to the neck. I had no pressure signs, although I had expected some. Velocities are just getting to the 2850 that I am looking for. Are tikkas just this slow but can take the pressure?

Question 2: can magnum primers be used in 6.5 creedmore? If I back down to 39gr h4350 and work up will I get higher pressure sooner with more velocity? Or is it frivolous to try magnums?

Question 3: Does the 6.5 creed 130ELDs have a velocity sweet spot like the 140s at 2850?

Rifle - Tikka T3x Car. 24" barrel.

Brass- made from 308 government brass. Sized. Trimmed. Wet tumbled.
Primer- CCI 200
Powder- hodgdon H4350

140 Elds
41.0 2677
41.3 2708
41.6 2701
42.0 2772
42.3. 2743
42.6 2780
43.0 2800
43.3. 2826
43.6 2842
44.0 2847

130ELDs
42.5 2838
42.8 2847
43.1. 2863
43.4 2875
43.8 2911
44.1. 2913
44.4 2921
44.8 2955
45.1 2995

Thanks for any help or answers you can provide.

 

[TxWelder35]

I'm surprised you aren't seeing pressure. I got pressure with 41.7gr H4350 with a 136gr Lapaua scenar. 26" Savage LRP barrel @2900

260 Rem, not 6.5 creed btw

 

[Friday]

I run 40 grains in mine and I flatten primers a little 42 grains I was on verge of blowing primers out on alpha brass in my 6.5 creed

 

[Tokay444]

I had loose primer pockets in Alpha brass LRP after two firings at 44.0 grains.

 

[FCS]

Tikka chamber has longer freebore / more gradual lead angle, both act to reduce slope on leading edge of pressure curve and peak pressure.

ZERO reason to use a magnum primer with 44 gr of H4350.

 

[Lunchbox27]

Thats a lot of H4350. I would try RL16 if you want more speed from your Tikka. I ran 42.4 ( you know the warning ) grains with the 140’s and got 2680 (20” barrel).

 

[Jimgal62]

I got a new rifle and started reloading 6.5 creedmore. I loaded 10 rounds with progressive powder charges for pressure testing and getting a relative velocity for 140ELDs and 130ELDs each. Below are the loads and speeds.

Question 1: I fell like the 44gr of H4350 is higher than most people are using for 140 Elds. Is it too high? The case is full just to the neck. I had no pressure signs, although I had expected some. Velocities are just getting to the 2850 that I am looking for. Are tikkas just this slow but can take the pressure?

Question 2: can magnum primers be used in 6.5 creedmore? If I back down to 39gr h4350 and work up will I get higher pressure sooner with more velocity? Or is it frivolous to try magnums?

Question 3: Does the 6.5 creed 130ELDs have a velocity sweet spot like the 140s at 2850?

Rifle - Tikka T3x Car. 24" barrel.

Brass- made from 308 government brass. Sized. Trimmed. Wet tumbled.
Primer- CCI 200
Powder- hodgdon H4350

140 Elds
41.0 2677
41.3 2708
41.6 2701
42.0 2772
42.3. 2743
42.6 2780
43.0 2800
43.3. 2826
43.6 2842
44.0 2847

130ELDs
42.5 2838
42.8 2847
43.1. 2863
43.4 2875
43.8 2911
44.1. 2913
44.4 2921
44.8 2955
45.1 2995

Thanks for any help or answers you can provide.

The sweet spot for 140 grain is usually around 2800 FPS.

 

[Jack Master]

I agree with you all. That is a lot of H4350. That is why I asked the question.
Group Trial
I shot a 5 round group of 44gr H4350 with 140ELD last night to check the group size and I shot about an inch group. I think most of the issue is me and the group could be smaller. Velocities Avg 2860, SD 10.7. Again I had no pressure signs.
Mag Primers
I did also try magnum primers just to see what they did. I back the powder down to 39gr H4350 and worked up adding 1/2 grain each to see what pressure did. I again got to 44gr H4350 with out much issue. The last 2 rounds I could tell the bolt loft was different but not tough or sticking. I STILL didn't have any pressure signs and everything was about 100 fps faster than the CCI 200 primers. I don't think I'll need to venture to far down this road because the standard primers got me to the velocities I wanted.

I was shooting with a buddy. He is working on load development for a savage (curse work i know) 6.5 creed and his powder charge maxed out at 42 grains. Ejector was showing on the brass. This validated the 44gr in my rifle is a lot of powder.

Question - since I have shot the load again, and it again appeared to be okay, do I continue to shoot that much H4350? Its working... but just seems wrong when compared to all other data I have seen. The powder charge in the brass comes right to the case neck. Just short of a compresses charge.

Question - what is the sweet spot speed for the 130Elds? They shot 2900fps with again, 44gr H4350. SD 7.2 (record for me)

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

It has already been noted in this thread and elsewhere on SH (including a video from @lowlight) that Tikka barrels - at least the 6.5CM ones - are "slow" due to longer freebore / leade. So, based on these posts and on my own experience with a Tikka 6.5CM rifle, it's not unreasonable at all that, in general, loads that are safe in a Tikka could well be overpressure in many other barrels.

My $0.02 is, why is it so important to wring every last bit of possible velocity out of the barrel? What happens if you do this load testing in the shade at, say, 85 degrees F., you load a pile of them, and find yourself and your ammo out in the sun for several hours on a 95-degree day? Also, my use of a "split neck" case for double-checking bullet jump to lands clearly shows that the base of a 140gr ELD bullet is well below the case neck - even taking into account the long Tikka leade - so I'm betting you're compressing the powder.

H4350 is supposed to have favorable temp stability characteristics, but my humble opinion is you're just asking for trouble (not to mention shortening barrel life) by consistently running your loads to redline just because you can, in absence of a real need to do so (like regular shooting beyond 1100-1200 yards).

 

[Jack Master]

consistently running your loads to redline just because you can, in absence of a real need to do so

Thanks Down Hill. I appreciate your $0.02.
Thanks for the Tikka rifle info, I have heard the same, but never thought of it from the load perspective, I just thought I would get pressure signs and the rounds would still be slow. (Maxing pressure out at 2790 or something)
In this load development I am not trying to push the max pressure, rather I am trying to get to 2850fps, which is the "sweet spot" Lowlight has mentioned several times. If I would have been getting 2900fps I would drop back to the 2850. I generally try not to wring every last bit of possible velocity out of the barrel. I just feel like this 44gr or H4350 seem excessive, but I am also not getting any pressure signs. Sure, the primers are a bit flattened but there is no brass signs. If I'm not getting pressure signs do you think I am still pushing things too far?

 

[Hondo64d]

I got a new rifle and started reloading 6.5 creedmore. I loaded 10 rounds with progressive powder charges for pressure testing and getting a relative velocity for 140ELDs and 130ELDs each. Below are the loads and speeds.

Question 1: I fell like the 44gr of H4350 is higher than most people are using for 140 Elds. Is it too high? The case is full just to the neck. I had no pressure signs, although I had expected some. Velocities are just getting to the 2850 that I am looking for. Are tikkas just this slow but can take the pressure?

Question 2: can magnum primers be used in 6.5 creedmore? If I back down to 39gr h4350 and work up will I get higher pressure sooner with more velocity? Or is it frivolous to try magnums?

Question 3: Does the 6.5 creed 130ELDs have a velocity sweet spot like the 140s at 2850?

Rifle - Tikka T3x Car. 24" barrel.

Brass- made from 308 government brass. Sized. Trimmed. Wet tumbled.
Primer- CCI 200
Powder- hodgdon H4350

140 Elds
41.0 2677
41.3 2708
41.6 2701
42.0 2772
42.3. 2743
42.6 2780
43.0 2800
43.3. 2826
43.6 2842
44.0 2847

130ELDs
42.5 2838
42.8 2847
43.1. 2863
43.4 2875
43.8 2911
44.1. 2913
44.4 2921
44.8 2955
45.1 2995

Thanks for any help or answers you can provide.

Velocity is nice to a point but shouldn’t be your end goal. Accuracy should be. You're very likely to find best accuracy with 140s between 2650 and 2800 and with 130s between 2850 and 2950. Find accuracy and let BC do its thing.

2850 with 140s is going to be pushing pressure with most of the common 6.5 Creedmoor powders. R26 seems to get you there with less pressure though. My CMs both like 140s around 2700 which is pretty close to where the factory loads are. One of my CMs also likes Berger 140gr EHs at about 2790 but starts open up after that.

130s seem to do well between 2850 and 2950. Don’t overlook Varget here. It does well well with bullets up to 130gr. My match rifle likes 130gr AR Hybrids pushed to 2900ish by Varget.

John

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thanks Down Hill. I appreciate your $0.02.
Thanks for the Tikka rifle info, I have heard the same, but never thought of it from the load perspective, I just thought I would get pressure signs and the rounds would still be slow. (Maxing pressure out at 2790 or something)
In this load development I am not trying to push the max pressure, rather I am trying to get to 2850fps, which is the "sweet spot" Lowlight has mentioned several times. If I would have been getting 2900fps I would drop back to the 2850. I generally try not to wring every last bit of possible velocity out of the barrel. I just feel like this 44gr or H4350 seem excessive, but I am also not getting any pressure signs. Sure, the primers are a bit flattened but there is no brass signs. If I'm not getting pressure signs do you think I am still pushing things too far?

I'm not saying you're pushing too far. I'm just saying I see no reason to accelerate wear on my barrel going for velocity I don't really need. Your goal, your interest, may vary. If you like to push the envelope and do it safely, have at it!

Beyond that, I think @Hondo64d states my perspective quite well, so I'll just second his post. If you look at factory velocities for ELD bullets, they are all under 2800fps out of the test barrels. I wouldn't be surprised to see velocities under 2700 in a short Tikka barrel

I haven't seen Frank's posts about 2850 fps being a sweet spot, and I'm not second-guessing him or anyone else who has developed a safe load to that or higher velocity. I only shoot to 1000-1100 yards, and traveling to that range for shoots or matches is less than once a month (I shoot an average of twice a week on a 500-meter range). Given the choice between a moderate load (as compared to factory velocities) and a "hot" load of equal accuracy, I'll take the moderate one. More life from my barrel, ample velocity for everything I want to do, and I've seen crap happen in hot sun that I don't want to have happen to my gear.

Again, that's ONLY my $0.02. You're doing right in soliciting input here. Drive on, have fun, and be safe!

 

[JMGlasgow]

I'm wondering how you managed to get 44 grains in a case without spilling over.

 

[FCS]

24" barrel, 6.5 Creed - 2825-2840 is where I usually find sweet spot. Accuracy with loads running 2825-2840 at 200 or 300 yards?

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I’ve tested 140gr ELDs over up to 44.2gr of H4350 in my ARC Nuclues + 21“ criterion barrel. 43.2gr is the highest node I’d want to run for shooting more than one or two rounds over a chronograph.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I'm wondering how you managed to get 44 grains in a case without spilling over.

It starts to compress at that point, but it fits.

 

[stello1001]

If you keep insisting and keep asking about how safe or not safe it is, why don't you SAFELY look for max?
Start at your current load and tryto cram more powder in small increments until you get signs of pressure (even though you already have them but deny it), this way you'll know how far away from max your current load is for your rifle. Yes, slight cratering of primers is a sign of over pressure.

Your exact words were, "Sure, the primers are a bit flattened but there is no brass signs. If I'm not getting pressure signs do you think I am still pushing things too far?"

These are already your early pressure signs buddy. But again, you can try to go higher on your charge to try to find what max pressure is on your rifle so you know how far your load is from it.

Another thing to add, I know you mentioned you are not trying to squeeze out every bit of velocity. Instead, you simply want to achieve 2850 because Frank claims it to be a sweet spot. Have you ever had the curiosity to see what exactly performs best out of YOUR PARTICULAR RIFLE and gives you the better accuracy, SD, ES, etc? A lot of people run 140s quite well in the 2700s and do so with great success. Just some food for thought!

 

[Deleted member 128515]

Repeatable, precision, accurate. Small groups and low SD and safety are more important than velocity. Once you concour that start taking it out to distance and see how accurate it still is!