Did you even read his wish list. A whole lot.
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Rifle Scopes Is a Viper PST Gen 3 coming???
- Thread starter Tyrich88
- Start date
People keep saying Philippines. I wouldn't be so sure about that.
I have good reason to believe that these are made in a certain Japanese factory or at the very least have Japanese glass.
So far all of my info regarding this optic series has been correct...
I know it certainly leaves a lot to be desired in the controls. I feel that the meat and potatoes are all there though. I think the XLR reticle works great for its “LHT” use case. It is not perfect but I think we can call it what it is. It is a well done crossover design that does most of what people want in that category.
I don’t understand this obsession with weight when all of us are likely carrying unneeded body fat.
“Ounces make pounds and pounds make pain.”
-Some 30 BMI Guy
“My rifle is heavy. Lifting weights is stupid.”
-30 BMI Guy’s Friend
“Ounces make pounds and pounds make pain.”
-Some 30 BMI Guy
“My rifle is heavy. Lifting weights is stupid.”
-30 BMI Guy’s Friend
Not sure why everybody is surprised they didn't bring a full fledge crossover/tactical design into the regular "viper" mix. Thats always been a hunting line of scopes. they already have that in the viper PST line, which is probably next in line to be "improved upon" This actually makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. There has been a pretty big gap in their product line for a bit, not a lot of hunting oriented scopes between the cheap chinese crossfires and the Razor line. The viper line has always had pretty good glass for the price point, but the designs were getting long in the tooth. This revamps the line and street price looks like it will come in well below the VX5s, zeiss v4, trijicon tenmile, etc. and those type of scopes quite a bit. Those others scopes are probably a little "better" but the glass on the viper will probably be good enough. I'd bet they sell a bunch of these.
Besides, just as its been said, 90% of the market for this type of scope don't even know what "first focal plane" is. I can't tell you how many times i've seen people with new chinesium strike eagles sitting on top of their skinny barreled deer rifles, trying to figure out why the cross hairs are "getting bigger and smaller". Its like watching a monkey find a Rubics cube for the first time.
Besides, just as its been said, 90% of the market for this type of scope don't even know what "first focal plane" is. I can't tell you how many times i've seen people with new chinesium strike eagles sitting on top of their skinny barreled deer rifles, trying to figure out why the cross hairs are "getting bigger and smaller". Its like watching a monkey find a Rubics cube for the first time.
This is where I am, I've gotten to where I really don't mind a SFP specifically for hunting as long as the max mag is ~10x. The reticle is still quickly useable on min mag for quick, close, low light shots without dicking around with illumination, and if I'm shooting far enough to use a reticle I've generally found I have enough time to turn the mag up. I don't really want a max mag much higher than that because when I'm using the reticle, I still want to have a large field of view so I can quickly get on target and see what's going on around the animal (herd movement, etc.)
All that said, I really like the idea of the Viper 2-10x, it's lightweight, set up well, made outside the PRC, I'd be ordering one if it weren't for that shitty BCD reticle. If they ever offer it with something useable in MIL, even if it's something simple like the VMR-3, I'm in.
For anyone wondering they are using Japanese glass in these scopes. I believe it was mentioned but figured I would add it again for anyone who missed it.
Reread what the thread title is.
People were hoping for a new pst. Vortex didn't deliver a pst. They first delivered a regular viper.
Personally I hope they add an exposed turret/mil hash reticle version of the 2-10. Would make a great SPR scope.
old fudd game stalker here that has no clue on the more than half of the abbreviated terms, who has a philly drug dealer size wad of cash to spend on a replacement for his 40 year old rig 3x9 pentax . All i want to shoot is metal gong at 300 yards using a scope that doesn't have information over loaded screens .......its like watching tinkerbells with man buns on their cell phones twittering in .22
Was shocked to see that they didn’t have an exposed turret version with a decent reticle.
BMI is stupid and outdated. Ever crunch Arnold Schwarzenegger's BMI when he was in his prime at 6’0” and 235lbs? It was around 31, which put him in the “obese” range… Body composition is a far more accurate gauge of health.
Anyway, while I’ll admit this was a disappointing release for us, I have to back up the view that Vortex knows what they’re doing. While the 5-25x applies to some of us as a crossover option, I don’t believe we were the main market for this line. The precision rifle/“tactical” rifle market is but a very small slice of the shooting public pie, so while I’m sure they’re reading our feedback, most of it doesn’t apply here.
So like many others, I’ll keep waiting and watching for when the day comes that we get another precision rifle specific drop, whenever that may be.
I think the only time I find it relevant is for sheep hunters or guys doing long backpack hunts for elk/mule deer. Most people outside of those two groups who obsess over a couple ounces between scopes are LARPing about stuff they'll never do.
Where do I begin. First, let me say what I like about this scope - great glass, good reticle, great illumination and great weight for the size. Now for the criticisms: 4.5x and somewhat narrow FOV is not ideal (for me), would have preferred 4-20 or 3.5-18 vs. 4.5-22 that said this is largely personal preference so not a big deal for those who are just fine with 4.5x at the bottom, but now comes my next issue, I do not feel the XLR-2 MRAD is very usable at 4.5x, not for close in work on moving game which is why I point out that we have a lot of good scope candidates for "crossover" but not a lot of good reticles. Next up is one of my biggest criticisms of the LHT: With RevStop in place you only have about 11.5 mrad of travel, for those wanting to ring steel at distance this is a huge limitation. The LHT turrets are a bit too mushy for my preference, but again, that's all it is - preference as they work just fine. Would rather have at least 10 mrad per rev turrets. My LHT sits on my FrankenKidd 10/22 as I wanted something lightweight but the 4.5x issue rears its head from time to time, if it had a circle of death or similar would make it a bit easier for little critters. I've thought about putting it on one of my bigger game crossover rifles but as previously mentioned I'd really rather have a 3.5-18/4-20ish range there, I had the Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 on there last year and really liked that scope but once again the reticle stinks at 3x and the weight was a bit more than I liked for balance with the lighter rifle so back to the drawing board. Bushnell really had something unique with their LRHS series over a decade ago, especially with the G2H reticle that IMO was really the first true attempt at a crossover reticle design, it is unfortunate that line did not get more interest from the community but at the time "crossover" was not really a thing and the predominant hunter mindset was still engrained in SFP scopes and duplex reticles.
^^^ Yep, I agreeturrets and overall feel could be improved. and get rid of the tree. the black crosshair from subtensions to edge iswith .2 and .5 windage marks but 10mil is a little much considering its a 6mil per rev turret
A "little" heavier, it's like a whole pound heavier than the LHT, on a lightweight long range crossover rifle that can really throw off the balance.
Thanks for sharing this Rob. "Made in the xxxx" doesn't necessarily mean everything is sourced there, that's part of the issue with a lot of products that offer up "Made in..." or "Assembled in..." they don't always tell the whole story and can be somewhat misleading.
Some of us have no extra body fat to carry around, being slim/athletic built, I just personally don’t need or want a PRS weight rifle. Hard to stay reasonable weight wise with a RazorG3 that weighs nearly 3 pounds.
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My "crossover" type build is an NRL Hunter Light sub 12# with suppressor so that low to mid 30 oz range fits. If I were going higher and further chasing game and wanted to be sub 10lb then LHT starts to fit better
May have shared this in another thread. For a crossover scope in the 3-15/18 or 4-20 range, this is the reticle I'd like to see (the VMR-4 is actually pretty close).
Exposed Elevation, Zero Stop, Capped Windage, Illumination, less than 22oz.
Ratios etc are not correct, these are just for the visual concept with a static reference circle to sumulate the view through the scope. German #4 ish at low power, then functional mil reticle that's not overly cluttered at the top end.
This is created with a grid in Excel so each cell represents 0.1 Mil. I used the zoom at 10% and 60%. I'm not a math guy and don't know if that's how the zoom ratios work in optics, but 6x. The stadia lines are just "borders" in Excel so no clue how think they would be in Mils...
German#4 (Left, Right, Bottom) - 1.0 Mil
Medium (Left, Right, Bottom) - 0.4 Mil total with 0.1 Mil bars top and bottom each separated by 0.1 Mils and a centered stadia.
Major Hash - 0.6 Mil
Minor Hash - 0.2 Mil
Center Cross - 0.4 Mil
3x (10%)
6x (20%)
12x (40%)
18x (60%)
Exposed Elevation, Zero Stop, Capped Windage, Illumination, less than 22oz.
Ratios etc are not correct, these are just for the visual concept with a static reference circle to sumulate the view through the scope. German #4 ish at low power, then functional mil reticle that's not overly cluttered at the top end.
This is created with a grid in Excel so each cell represents 0.1 Mil. I used the zoom at 10% and 60%. I'm not a math guy and don't know if that's how the zoom ratios work in optics, but 6x. The stadia lines are just "borders" in Excel so no clue how think they would be in Mils...
German#4 (Left, Right, Bottom) - 1.0 Mil
Medium (Left, Right, Bottom) - 0.4 Mil total with 0.1 Mil bars top and bottom each separated by 0.1 Mils and a centered stadia.
Major Hash - 0.6 Mil
Minor Hash - 0.2 Mil
Center Cross - 0.4 Mil
3x (10%)
6x (20%)
12x (40%)
18x (60%)
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Given the new Viper HD turrets and how good they sound one would think a revision for the LHT turrets might be on the horizon. Would be hard to stomach a $900 optic from the same brand having far better turrets than their $1500 optic.
That would definitely freshen up the LHT line. If they had great positive clicks and better illumination control, it would get rid of a lot of the complaints that people have against it.
First off who said this is all the new scopes they are bring out
These scope all serve a purpose and the market place will sell these very well
The 5-25x50 with 10 mils a turn is a scope I wish I had when I carried a rifle for work. One of these is on order for my 20” GAP 308 bolt gun and will have a KN253 Simrad mount on top
I will eventually get a 2-10 or two for my hunting rifles. One an air rifle and another a Hog Hunting rifle
The new HD glass should be a big advantage as I love my Razor HD
The price point will be great for many
I don’t know what else they/Vortex has in mind but man this last year has impressed me with lots of great products
Now before anyone says anything I am a not employed or sponsored at Vortex. I have a couple of friends that work there but they certainly don’t share company info with me or do I ask. We mostly just talk fishing. I just like Vortex and there products as a whole.
These scope all serve a purpose and the market place will sell these very well
The 5-25x50 with 10 mils a turn is a scope I wish I had when I carried a rifle for work. One of these is on order for my 20” GAP 308 bolt gun and will have a KN253 Simrad mount on top
I will eventually get a 2-10 or two for my hunting rifles. One an air rifle and another a Hog Hunting rifle
The new HD glass should be a big advantage as I love my Razor HD
The price point will be great for many
I don’t know what else they/Vortex has in mind but man this last year has impressed me with lots of great products
Now before anyone says anything I am a not employed or sponsored at Vortex. I have a couple of friends that work there but they certainly don’t share company info with me or do I ask. We mostly just talk fishing. I just like Vortex and there products as a whole.
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I wouldn't hold your breath. 2 different lines from 2 different OEMs. Might not be as easy as we would like it to be.
My biggest irritation with the 4.5-22 is the locking diopter. I used to desire such a thing, but after using the fast-focus type I found my misgivings of its potential bump-ability to be unfounded. The FF type is sooo much faster to set.
Second up is the stiffness of the parallax and zoom ring of my sample. I should sent it back in for adjustment.
Third, which is minor, is the tighter FOV vs my 5-25 PST II’s. But, this is mitigated on all mags (except the widest) by simply zooming out.
I never dial or use illumination, and I shoot tiny critters at 50-130yds with the scope, so reticle viz at low mag is a total non-issue for me. In fact, if the ret was prominent at low mag that would bug the crap out of me as it would interfere with my 4.5x view that I use to find my prey.
Second up is the stiffness of the parallax and zoom ring of my sample. I should sent it back in for adjustment.
Third, which is minor, is the tighter FOV vs my 5-25 PST II’s. But, this is mitigated on all mags (except the widest) by simply zooming out.
I never dial or use illumination, and I shoot tiny critters at 50-130yds with the scope, so reticle viz at low mag is a total non-issue for me. In fact, if the ret was prominent at low mag that would bug the crap out of me as it would interfere with my 4.5x view that I use to find my prey.
Personally, I think this is a solid design overall but I’d tweak a few small things if it were me. I’d make the lines at each full mil a little smaller/shorter, extend the .2 marks all the way down, and I’d probably prefer a dot center but would happily buy something with a cross like you have there.
The problem is, the thickness looks decent at low mag, but you didn’t scale it correctly at high mag. It would be much thicker as I’m sure you know, and therein lies the rub. Finding the right balance is hard, because it’ll either be too thin at low power, or too thick at high. Which is why the G2H donut of death worked so well. It was big enough to draw your eye in at low power, but was only minimally intrusive at higher powers.
A prime example of the struggle is the March FML-1 reticle and the original Razor’s EBR-2b. Those have thicker stadia, but a lot of people feel they’re “too thick” these days. You can’t have both.
Perhaps the one thing I’d try is combining a donut with having a thinner crosshair for the center of the reticle, say 2-3mils out from center. Then double the thickness the rest of the way out, and THEN have the #4 style posts on the outermost portion. So maybe .03 or .04 for the center portion, then .07 or so the rest of the way out, and then 1-1.5mil thick #4 posts. That way at low power the reticle still appears thick enough to see and quickly quarter a target, but as you increase in magnification the thicker parts “spread out,” leaving a finer reticle to use inside the donut for more precise, longer-range engagements. Just a thought, maybe it’s been done before.
This is why it is important to have options, I am not suggesting they replace existing reticles, but would like to see the addition of something that is more crossover oriented for situations similar to what I mention, this is tricky for sure as you don't want something that ends up obscuring things at higher mags especially. I might throw my Athlon 2-12x42 with AH2MR reticle on my 10/22 and see how well I like or dislike that reticle as it has a thicker horseshoe, in another thread someone was talking about that scope being great for shooting flies at close ranges, seriously, they shoot flies with their 22 LR, I love it!
I really like the March FML-TR1H reticle they put in their 3-24x52 scope, that quadrant does not obscure at 3x but actually really helps pick center quickly
Oh yeah, I wasn’t respond to you, just throwing out my perspective for @Scott_at_Vortex whom I hope reads this and will no doubt immediately hand-craft my new scope lol
That March FML-TR1H looks pretty good!
I had been messaging a Vortex agent prying on whether they'd release an RMR footprint and said they had stuff in the works. I bet the defender XL is an RMR footprint hence the need for the glass being pushed forward like the Trijicon SRO.
Pricing always matters, but with a lot of the red dot prices not being very far off Trijicon I always wonder how much market share is there esp. for an SRO use case. The plain RMR I've said for years is durable but optically garbage, even before everyone jumped into the handgun optic game and RMR could do no wrong, the RMR HD at least addresses that. The MRO release was a fiasco, so Trijicon is far from perfect.
The Defender ST is a good example, yes it's apples/oranges to an SRO in use, but let's make a pretty safe assuming that the XL is at least as expensive. Street pricing seems to be around $350, but I've seen SRO's recently in the $450 range.....not that $100 is nothing, but it seems like most folks would cough up $100 to run that over Vortex. Esp. with the Trijicon being USA made and the Vortex from China. Holosun 507 comp and some of their red dots that are pushing $400 street price are the same. If they were half the price I could see it but they are getting to be really close in price point.
Then again, people pay criminally insane prices for SIG stuff, so I guess marketing hype play a huge role with the average consumer. Plus at the end of the day more competition is likely always a positive.
The Defender ST is a good example, yes it's apples/oranges to an SRO in use, but let's make a pretty safe assuming that the XL is at least as expensive. Street pricing seems to be around $350, but I've seen SRO's recently in the $450 range.....not that $100 is nothing, but it seems like most folks would cough up $100 to run that over Vortex. Esp. with the Trijicon being USA made and the Vortex from China. Holosun 507 comp and some of their red dots that are pushing $400 street price are the same. If they were half the price I could see it but they are getting to be really close in price point.
Then again, people pay criminally insane prices for SIG stuff, so I guess marketing hype play a huge role with the average consumer. Plus at the end of the day more competition is likely always a positive.
gun.deals and either punch in a UPC or MPN, some stores sell even cheaper with coupons/cash back etc. but that's a lot more work to hunt down and often not worth the effort. You can also put in alerts to let you know when something drops below a certain price and is available.
Keep an eye on Locked Loaded, Battlehawk Armory, and Primary Arms. They do regular sales on the SRO. Also, around the holidays Sportsmans Guide and Sportsmans Warehouse do sales on them and have coupon codes as well. I got mine for $416 from Sportsmans Warehouse using a 15% code I got for signing up for text notifications back during their Easter sales this year.
So you are comparing SRO hard to find pricing or special sale prices with everyone else's everyday everyone pricing? That seems a little disingenuous, does it not?
One could assume you can also do this kind of search you speak of for all the other dots you mentioned. What are those prices? Then we could compare apples to apples.
Pricing will never be apples to apples, things go on/off sale, manufacturers change MAP, crack down on stores selling for less, change prices, coupons, overstock/closeout sales, MAP "holidays" have become more common, rebates etc. Heck some stores won't charge you shipping or sales tax, or they will offset sales tax at checkout with a discount, that alone can save you $50+ There's no "fair" price comparison, even MSRP is a joke, because some brands sell basically at MSRP, there's no real street discount, others sell at practically half of MSRP.
FWIW I did the gun.deals search on the Defender XT and Holosun 507 comp, prior to posting, best prices ranged from $330-350. Will they be cheaper somewhere, sometime, etc. ......certainly. Is some store if you look hard enough selling them for even less right now, most likely.
FWIW I did the gun.deals search on the Defender XT and Holosun 507 comp, prior to posting, best prices ranged from $330-350. Will they be cheaper somewhere, sometime, etc. ......certainly. Is some store if you look hard enough selling them for even less right now, most likely.
Various fudd pictures of a new vortex viper hd 5 25x50 ffp. Taken at 5, 10, 25. Seems very picky at higher mag. To get behind. This is just MY fudd opinion
Attachments
The PST Gen2 5-25 gets a bit sensitive around 22x, I found rather than a tight eyebox it was more the exit pupil getting small with the 50mm objective.
Nice to see the huge FOV/image in those pics, definitely the thing I most like about the PST Gen2.
If a FFP 3-15x44 ever comes out I'd be all over it, 5-25 is just to much magnification for a hunting/crossover scope IMO.
A 4-20x50 would be even better.
I didn't have parallax set when took some of those pics. And they were with an android phone. No special equipment. My intention was just to show reticle at different mags. Scope is clear just hard to get behind @25. But between 25 and 20 it was fine. And as I stated i am coming from a 3x9 with set parallax. I realized that after I tried looking through it at 25 and it was blurry. Luckily I figured it out. Would have been embarrassing to bring it back only to learn parallax was set at 20yds. Lol
I have been thinking of replacing my old 3x9 for shooting steel plate at 300 yard with a browning A bolt 300 win mag [scope and rifle are 40 years old] ....the models sure have changed is an understatement and ball of confusion for this old fudd sadly
You should get a Leeapold, one with one of them gold rings.
100. But the pics are really terrible compared to what I actually see. 25 magnification was really the only area hard to get behind. When I adjusted below 25 but above 20 it was fine. Image is clear
I currently run the PST G2 2-10 on a "SPR-ish" rifle. Realistically all they need to do to that optic is make the elevation locking, the windage locking or capped and put in a new reticle (either a simpler mil-hash as the current one has weird longer hashes on the vertical stadia below center or the same tree they use in the 3-15). It could stand to lose a few ounces but I'd be happy if they just addressed the turrets and reticle.
3-15 no FFP is wild
2-10 no FFP is disappointing
I continue to enjoy my MK5 2-10 TMR and PST2 3-15 FFP tree reticle much more than I thought I would. The TMR reticle has been great at the distances I shoot and is useable at low power. The PST2 is awesome for the price and has great FOV. A 2-10 FFP with something between a EBR7 (tree) and VMR3 (crosshair) reticle would be an affordable version of what everyone wants for a useable gas gun optic
2-10 no FFP is disappointing
I continue to enjoy my MK5 2-10 TMR and PST2 3-15 FFP tree reticle much more than I thought I would. The TMR reticle has been great at the distances I shoot and is useable at low power. The PST2 is awesome for the price and has great FOV. A 2-10 FFP with something between a EBR7 (tree) and VMR3 (crosshair) reticle would be an affordable version of what everyone wants for a useable gas gun optic
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