Is it me, or is M80 Ball horribly inaccurate?!

[TheHorta]

Popped my new SB PMII 5-20x50 Ultra Short on one of my new SR25’s. I intend to use it predominately as a night gun with a UTC-Xii in front.

I loaded a couple of mags with Milsurp M80 Ball. Legit stuff, not factory seconds. Seated, with a bag, It was all I could do to get 2-3 consecutive rounds within 3 inches of each other. I haven’t tried to put any match ammo through this rifle yet, but dayum!

Is M80 really THIS bad?!

I ain’t no ELR deity, but I thought I was better than this.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I don't think the accuracy requirement is that great when it's being fed through a 240.

 

[pmclaine]

Yes.

 

[Nomad_chew]

Yea, I’m pretty sure it’s a FMJ with a flat base. So not exactly known for accuracy.

 

[TheHorta]

Was beginning to think I have Parkinson’s.

 

[KYAggie]

Well, this is a group I shot as I was adjusting my SWFA 1-6 scope in my personally built AR10 with 1982 Malaysian M80 surplus. Not sure how it groups with other surplus yet.

 

[RyanScott]

Yea, I’m pretty sure it’s a FMJ with a flat base. So not exactly known for accuracy.

All other things being equal a flat base would be expected to be more accurate.

 

[CoryT]

Standard advise in this situation. If you want a small group, shoot once.

 

[Supersubes]

Machine gun ammo. Nuff said.

 

[Huskydriver]

Bahahahahahaha..... Have you seen a mg qual? Rounds anywhere near touching is not close to a requirement to pass....


But damn do I love a 240 esp if I didn't have to carry it anywhere

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Is this true for all 762 NATO surplus? British roadway green, m80 us ammo, German equivalent, etc?

 

[LRRPF52]

Is this true for all 762 NATO surplus? British roadway green, m80 us ammo, German equivalent, etc?

No. German MEN, South African surplus, and several other M80 7.62 I’ve shot have been unbelievably accurate.

The German MEN looks and shoots like Lapua match in some rifles.

 

[eastexsteve]

Popped my new SB PMII 5-20x50 Ultra Short on one of my new SR25’s. I intend to use it predominately as a night gun with a UTC-Xii in front.

I loaded a couple of mags with Milsurp M80 Ball. Legit stuff, not factory seconds. Seated, with a bag, It was all I could do to get 2-3 consecutive rounds within 3 inches of each other. I haven’t tried to put any match ammo through this rifle yet, but dayum!

Is M80 really THIS bad?!

I ain’t no ELR deity, but I thought I was better than this.

Not all M80 is created equal. If you want to shoot milspec 7.62x51 through it, try some M118LR. In regards to M80, I can hold within 4 MOA out to 850 - 900 yards with my M1A with iron sights using PMC X-TAC M80. Beyond that, the bullet seems to start showing some instability.

 

[candyx]

Do tight groups really matter for center mass even if you nick the target your in good shape.

 

[RyanScott]

I’ll always take tighter groups unless you ask me to trade something like cost that I don’t want to trade.

 

[theLBC]

i haven't tried old battle packs from malaysia or anything, but PPU m80 ball is no worse than 2 moa for me out of a 1:12 20" barrel.
i think those are bt though if you care.

 

[Lange Carabine]

All other things being equal a flat base would be expected to be more accurate.

The 7.62mm M80 bullet weighs 147-149gr and is a boattail.
The 150gr .30 cal M2(.30-06) is flat base. Neither was known for its accuracy, with exception to .30 cal M2 ball produced at the Denver Ordnance Plant during WWII.

 

[NineHotel]

I've got some ADI I'd part with. It's reported to shoot half the group sizes of US M80 Ball.

It's a good idea IMO to have a known zero and good data on M80 for your 308, just in case you have to use it. An E silhouette can still be banged full of holes consistently with the stuff quite a ways out, even though you won't win any bench rest championships with it.

 

[RyanScott]

Yeah I was thinking something was wrong there.

But, there’s a reason that benchresters usually use flat base bullets. It’s theoretical for the rest of us.

 

[theLBC]

Yeah I was thinking something was wrong there.

But, there’s a reason that benchresters usually use flat base bullets. It’s theoretical for the rest of us.

i watched some slo-motion analysis that showed a flat base allows less gas to escape around the bullet as it exits the barrel.
it wasn't really meant to demonstrate superiority as much as offering an option that might help a worn barrel that lost accuracy with boat tails.

 

[JMGlasgow]

US M80 ball is a boat tail bullet.

As far as good surplus ammo. I found that German DAG was the best I've shot. Radway Green is decent too. Neither will be anywhere close to a good match bullet, but DAG shot consistently under MOA for me through a bolt action. The jacket is cupronickel though so barrel wear is increased.

 

[Claluja]

Fed M80 ball averages 1.8, and PPU M80 ball averages 1.7, out of my SR-25 CC.

 

[Alpine 338]

Lithuanian (GGG) M80 is very accurate, same with their SS109 (M855 equivalent).

 

[RUTGERS95]

No. German MEN, South African surplus, and several other M80 7.62 I’ve shot have been unbelievably accurate.

The German MEN looks and shoots like Lapua match in some rifles.

Dag is pretty good too

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

In a lot of cases, in regards to military surplus, you should always be aware your gear was made by the lowest bidder.
Still good for a yippee though.

 

[MPD142]

I found a lot of XM80 ball ammo that shot consistent 1-1.25" groups out of my LMT MWS. Then I've had other lot's that looked like a 12guage shooting 00 buck at the target. It's not match ammo by any means, some shoots better than others, but It's nice for blasting steel out to 400 yards or so. I miss the days when it was $0.33 a round though.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I took some brand new General Dynamics 147 grain ball (it looked really good, I had high hopes) and carefully loaded it in Federal brass and it shot just under 3 MOA for 20 shots at 200 yards.

I took the same bullet and used thrown charges from the powder measure in mixed military brass and it shot just over 3 MOA for 20 shots. So I determined that the thrown charges and mixed brass weren't the limiting factor.

I loaded up 300 rounds of the mixed brass for my 308 gas gun to use as blaster ammo and loaded the rest in 300 Blackout.

 

[slothlacrosse]

How bad could it be? I've never not qualified

 

[brianf]

2 sources of info:

The U.S. military's accuracy standard for M80 Ball (boxed or on stripper clips) is a mean average radius of 5 inches at 600 yards for all groups tested from a given lot of ammunition.

That measurement loosely equates to a 10-inch circle or approximately 1.6 MOA at that distance "


Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition:

M-80 (and M-59) carton or clip pack with a 5" mean radius at 600 yards and 7.5" mean radius at 600 yards for link pack.

M-62 tracer accuracy standard was (is?) 15" mean radius max. average at 600 yards

 

[fdkay]

No. German MEN, South African surplus, and several other M80 7.62 I’ve shot have been unbelievably accurate.

The German MEN looks and shoots like Lapua match in some rifles.

So, you like the way German MEN shoot?
That's kinda gay.

 

[stefan73]

Bahahahahahaha..... Have you seen a mg qual? Rounds anywhere near touching is not close to a retirement to pass....


But damn do I love a 240 esp if I didn't have to carry it anywhere

Port setting three was my favorite! Loved hearing it rip in Iraq!!!!

I laso have fond memories humping the M60. Starts off like an angry choo choo train.

Only time I hated the 240 or the 60 was when I had to hump those things around and we didn't fire them! Then you have to carry them back with all that ammo

 

[Deleted member 113831]

2 sources of info:

The U.S. military's accuracy standard for M80 Ball (boxed or on stripper clips) is a mean average radius of 5 inches at 600 yards for all groups tested from a given lot of ammunition.

That measurement loosely equates to a 10-inch circle or approximately 1.6 MOA at that distance "


Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition:

M-80 (and M-59) carton or clip pack with a 5" mean radius at 600 yards and 7.5" mean radius at 600 yards for link pack.

M-62 tracer accuracy standard was (is?) 15" mean radius max. average at 600 yards

ES for that group is gonna be closer to 18" so about 3 moa.

 

[brianf]

ES for that group is gonna be closer to 18" so about 3 moa.

that what i always though 3" at 100 more or less

but i have read those specs several times before

 

[RyanScott]

Mean radius is always much, much smaller than extreme spread. Probably 1/3 the extreme spread. It’s basically a measure of the likely deviation of any particular shot from the center of the group.

 

[NineHotel]

Mean means mean, or in layman's terms, average. Add the numbers up and divide by the number of numbers. And that is deviation from point of aim, so double that to get the diameter. If the numbers are equally distributed in the number set, then your group size in diameter would be 4x the mean radius.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

No. German MEN, South African surplus, and several other M80 7.62 I’ve shot have been unbelievably accurate.

The German MEN looks and shoots like Lapua match in some rifles.

Thanks. One more question: do the military surplus 762 rounds shorten barrel life in a chrome lined barrel any faster than regular brass cased ammo? I saw some debate the German on the other thread.

 

[RyanScott]

The military claims they don’t effect barrel life, the caveat being they are talking about hammer forged chrome lined machine gun barrels.

 

[Sieg]

FWIW - These are from a Ruger SR-762 16" carbine, Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9 scope, 2lb trigger, YHM suppressor, resting on a bag with rear hand hold. Still fine tuning the BCG buffer weight and spring rate. I'm still acclimating to shooting this gun so my technique definitely has room for improvement.

LC M80 149g recent over-run inventory sold in 500rd bagged and boxed cases.

Ammo was purchased for SHTF application for which it appears adequate.

 

[cav21082108]

Seems to depend on the gun. In my SCAR 17, it is pretty much sub-moa at 100 yards. It also seems to depend on the source of the ammo. Federal XM80C in my SCAR 17 is just crap. Lucky to get 1.5 moa from that Federal reject ammo. Shooting ZQI M80 NATO (147g headstamp: MKE) is always sub-moa producing edge to edge hits and single (ragged) holes in 10 shot groups at 100 yards. The velocity is also averaging 160 fps faster (2816 fps) than LC M80 (2650 fps) in my SCAR. Winchester M80 averages 2670 fps and sometimes one-moa. Generally speaking, I would say that most M80 Ball (in my SCAR's 1:12 twist 16-inch barrel) is not particularly accurate, being mostly 1.5 moa and with the right ammo it can be sub-moa.

 

[MPD142]

Found a photo of some the XM80 groups from my 16” MWS. This lot of ammo was pretty consistent and would generally print between .95-1.3” at 100 yards. Sadly I don’t have as much of it left as I would like.

 

[eastexsteve]

Thanks. One more question: do the military surplus 762 rounds shorten barrel life in a chrome lined barrel any faster than regular brass cased ammo? I saw some debate the German on the other thread.

I saw a test that somebody ran using three identical AR15 rifles and fired 10,000(?) rounds out of each. In two of the test guns, they used military bi-metal jacket rounds, and in the third gun, they used nothing but FMJ all copper jacket rounds. The barrel in the gun that fired all copper jacket bullets, while badly worn, could be salvaged. The barrels of the other two guns that fired the bi-metal bullets were toast.

Seeing this made me use nothing but PMC XTAC M80 in my M1A rifles. They are FMJ copper - no bi-metal. And, they shoot pretty good for M80.

 

[Mike Shoots Stuff]

I have a custom bolt gun that will get half MOA with federal premium and it shoot M80 at about 1.5-2 MOA.
Out of a test barrel, it must have a Standard Deviation of 32 feet.
I believe the mean radius standard is 7.5” at 600 yards. The SD I’m sure of from reading a research paper on it. The mean radius I would have to check again. The paper was about using it for overhead machine gun fire.

 

[RyanScott]

I saw a test that somebody ran using three identical AR15 rifles and fired 10,000(?) rounds out of each. In two of the test guns, they used military bi-metal jacket rounds, and in the third gun, they used nothing but FMJ all copper jacket rounds. The barrel in the gun that fired all copper jacket bullets, while badly worn, could be salvaged. The barrels of the other two guns that fired the bi-metal bullets were toast.

Seeing this made me use nothing but PMC XTAC M80 in my M1A rifles. They are FMJ copper - no bi-metal. And, they shoot pretty good for M80.

US bimetallic or com bloc crap?

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

I saw a test that somebody ran using three identical AR15 rifles and fired 10,000(?) rounds out of each. In two of the test guns, they used military bi-metal jacket rounds, and in the third gun, they used nothing but FMJ all copper jacket rounds. The barrel in the gun that fired all copper jacket bullets, while badly worn, could be salvaged. The barrels of the other two guns that fired the bi-metal bullets were toast.

Seeing this made me use nothing but PMC XTAC M80 in my M1A rifles. They are FMJ copper - no bi-metal. And, they shoot pretty good for M80.

Interesting. Is all military surplus bi metal? Like the German MEN, German dag, British radway green, us xm, etc?

 

[10X Rifles]

LC-64 with green primer sealer was about a minute in a M-14

 

[RUTGERS95]

I saw a test that somebody ran using three identical AR15 rifles and fired 10,000(?) rounds out of each. In two of the test guns, they used military bi-metal jacket rounds, and in the third gun, they used nothing but FMJ all copper jacket rounds. The barrel in the gun that fired all copper jacket bullets, while badly worn, could be salvaged. The barrels of the other two guns that fired the bi-metal bullets were toast.

Seeing this made me use nothing but PMC XTAC M80 in my M1A rifles. They are FMJ copper - no bi-metal. And, they shoot pretty good for M80.

you may be talking about the luckygunner test which has some major issues in the test and conclusions. No one here will have the issues presented here due to the full auto nature of the test. Also, the powders used matter more as the pressure curve on some of the steel case (Tula) is right at the throat leading to greater throat wear. Bimetal bullets have been used for eons as have steel bullets and the wear is not material. Heat and friction kill barrels so if you shoot full auto and you have a fast burn close to the throat and you shoot full auto then you will experience faster wear that is noticeable.

Wolf is fine, Tula I stay away from but again, I don't have full auto firearms and I'm not shooting 5-10k through in 2 days so it's a non factor

 

[eastexsteve]

US bimetallic or com bloc crap?

Here's a takeaway from the test
"
Bimetal Jacket Impact
As indicated by accuracy testing, the steel cased/bimetal jacketed ammunition caused accelerated wear to the inside of their respective bores.

The barrel of the Federal carbine had plenty of life left after 10,000 rounds at extremely high rates of fire. We subjected the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels to the same rates of fire and they were completely “shot out” by 6,000 rounds."

Here's the test:

Brass vs. Steel Cased Ammo - An Epic Torture Test

This comprehensive 40,000 round brass vs. steel cased ammo torture test examines at key indicators of ammo performance and cost in AR-15 rifles.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[TheHorta]

I’m gonna compare it in the SR25, SCAR-20, and another AR10 I have with an 18” match barrel to see if it’s consistently poor or if the SR just doesn’t like it. Gotta dust off my lead sled.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Aren't the military surplus 762 NATO rounds brass cased and not steel like in the luckygunner test?

 

[FLIGHT762]

Aren't the military surplus 762 NATO rounds brass cased and not steel like in the luckygunner test?

Yes, brass cased, but US Military specification for 7.62 NATO M-80 ball ammo is brass cased with a mild steel jacketed bullet, not a gilded metal jacket.