Rifle Scopes Is the S&B PMII 5-25 still relevant in today's market given all of the options out there?

[BP 3papa 7sierra]

It seems to me that there are a lot of companies doing a lot of things right when it comes to precision optics. This seems to apply across the spectrum of cost be it $500 or $5000. I am likely to find something suitable for shooting out to 1000 in just about any price range as long as I am diligent in my research and choices made. With all of this in mind, does the PMII still rank as not only a Tier 1 scope but also as a prudent purchase? This is coming from a guy not afraid to drop the coin on a piece of equipment if it means getting something that functions at a level which inspires confidence or rather removes reason for doubt.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Do you want a tried and true classic scope that works very well.
Or do you want the latest greatest coolness.

 

[blbennett1288]

Yes, PMIIs are still considered Tier 1 scopes

If they have a reticle that suites your needs go for it.

 

[Temper]

Still very relevant and probably the best value in high end optics right now if you buy used since they can be had for under 2k. In fact I just went back to one after having most of the big names. They lack reticles but I'm finding the reticle isn't all that important if it's not obtrusive and has at least .5 MIL holds.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have 3 S&B 2 5x25 and 1 3x27. I also have 2 Kahles 624i. For me it comes down to what looks best to my eye. I were glasses so that adds a factor to the equation. I have looked at NF, USO and Minox and all a very good scopes but the 2 that i see best thru are S&B and Kahles. I am going to give the Zcomp a try on my ELR rig later this year. If i find a really good deal though I would not hesitate to add a 4th S&B.

 

[patriot07]

Relevant? Of course.

But the market is flooded with options with better reticles, identical features, and glass 98% as good in the $1500-$2k range, so they just aren’t going for $3k anymore.

But if anyone thinks theirs is irrelevant, please pm me so I can provide a shipping address.

 

[BP 3papa 7sierra]

Good points, it is easy to become enamored with all the new bells and whistles. At the end of the day I guess what matters most is does the piece of equipment meet the needs of the shooter. If you are looking to get into the game for the lowest price possible then it is obviously not the right choice, however, if you are looking for something with a proven track record then it is hard to go wrong.

 

[mattwaage1]

Absolutely.

It's still the gold standard, always will be. Just now we have some "polished gold" also.

 

[steve123]

It's still one of the few scopes that you can shoot a Field Target air rifle match with, because it will focus down to 10M, a 22 rimfire match also for which it does well at for the same reason, and on out to ELR distances with centerfires. And yes I've used it for all those.

With the H59 reticle it becomes an even more versatile scope!

That's why I settled on them and kept them, well and they are just a well made scope too.

 

[tihz_on]

Yep , still love mine. Love watching trace thru my pmii. Something i couldnt do with a k624i.

If anyone feels their pmii with H2cmr reticle is irrelevant, i will gladly take it from them. Lol

 

[918v]

I disagree with your premise that a lot of companies are doing things right. They are making features available that previously were not, but the quality isn’t there, not at the same level as the PMII.

 

[acudaowner]

i figured that if it fits what you want it to do giving you the range you can accept , its clear enough for you to be happy with , and its at a price you can afford why not , if it puts a smile on your face and motivates you to shoot more have at it ..

 

[drglock]

I’ve owned Nightforce’s, Vortex Razor gen I and II and though there all great scopes none have quite been on the same level as my S&B PM II. Just sold my S&B 5-25 just so I could afford an S&B Ultra Short.

 

[ThePretzel]

Just bought a PM II 5-25 because they have the reticle I want (Tremor3) and they have the ability to focus at close range (don't need a dry fire adapter). I've noticed that while there will still be some parallax error below 10m, you can still do dry fire training at about 20 feet with a clear reticle and picture which is the important thing to be able to see when you're trying to do anything indoors.

The glass is top quality (it's only considered to be behind TT, ZCO, and some lucky Minox scopes), it focuses in close, and it just plain works. Only disadvantages to it are if you dislike the reticle offerings or if you're left handed and need the illumination tumor removed to clear your bolt handle.

 

[koshkin]

S&B 5-25x is still very much relevant. I do not use Horus reticles, but now that they have the GR2ID reticle coming out, they definitely ahv emy interest peaked. To be fair, their non-tree reticles are quite good and if GR2ID had not come out, I would probably go for the one with MSR reticle.

ILya

 

[Alpine 338]

My mainstay scope is the S&B 5-25 with MSR Reticle. Is it perfect? No. Is there anything better? Not with the features and reticle choices that are important to me.

In search of the perfect scope, and perfect reticle. So far they don't exist.

 

[plidenbrock]

Tier 1 scope? YUP
Prudent purchase? YUP

Whether it's "worth it" is up to you. It's hard to say it totally removes doubt because you gotta vet each and every scope IMHO. I remember reading a thread back where someone got two consecutively numbered S&Bs with identical turret problems. I've seen a S&B blow up in the cold.

Weird stuff happens. It's far less likely to give you problems, but it's not impossible.

It has to be said that there are very few scopes out there with the combination of features that the 525PMII has. Sizeable elevation travel, 10m parallax, good reticles, and cold resistance: only ones I know of with identical features is the 3-27PMII and the SWFA SS scopes.

 

[ThePretzel]

To add onto my previous post, I honestly think a used S&B PM II in the $1,900-2,200 range is about the best deal in the optics market today. With everybody itching to try out the new ZCO, Gen3XR TT, and Kahles 525i there are a bunch of people offloading their Schmidts right now for prices hardly above those of a Gen 2 Razor. The glass clearly beats the Razor, with the turret/knob feel and the reticles largely being personal preference. If one of the eleven options for reticles suits your eye it's really hard to beat at that price, and I'm surprised Nightforce scopes haven't seemed to drop quite as low.

 

[Rob01]

Glass on the S&B does not clearly beat the Razor II. When I got my first Razor II I put it up against my S&B 5-25 and glass was a push and that was not just my eyes but 5 or 6 other guys I let look through both at the range on different days. I had 3 5-25 S&Bs that I used in matches for almost 6 years and had owned another 4 or 5 4-16s and 3-12s and a 3-20 so I know about their scopes.

S&B is still a good scope but their reticles are falling behind. They need a good Christmas tree reticle that's not one of those Horus offerings. Didn't like their locking turrets either. I would get the standard knobs if I were to get one.

 

[JFComfort]

I've only recently started running a PM II 5-25x and I think the glass is excellent. Only other scope I currently have optically on par with my Hensoldt ZF FF. My Kahles K624i Gen III looks good but falls just short of the previously mentioned scopes. I still very much consider them a top tier scope and think the new grid reticle shows they are paying some attention.

 

[ThePretzel]

Glass on the S&B does not clearly beat the Razor II.

I can respect your opinion and experience on the matter, but everything I have seen with my own eyes and everything I have heard and read from others says that the S&B glass has better contrast and less bleeding of colors across all light conditions.

A very small difference between the two, to be sure, but if you're paying the same price for both and like the reticle offerings of the S&B (enough people prefer the Horus reticles that Vortex is now offering them too) it seems to make little sense to purchase a Razor over the S&B at the same price unless you're a lefty or are incredibly hard on scopes and need the additional warranty of the Vortex.

 

[Rob01]

I can respect your opinion and experience on the matter, but everything I have seen with my own eyes and everything I have heard and read from others says that the S&B glass has better contrast and less bleeding of colors across all light conditions.

A very small difference between the two, to be sure, but if you're paying the same price for both and like the reticle offerings of the S&B (enough people prefer the Horus reticles that Vortex is now offering them too) it seems to make little sense to purchase a Razor over the S&B at the same price unless you're a lefty or are incredibly hard on scopes and need the additional warranty of the Vortex.

Everyone's eyes are different so have to cahlk it up to that. Knobs are better on the Razor II over the S&B IMHO with better locking and the clickless zeroing so between glass that's nearly the same as some say, better reticles and knobs it's a toss up but comparing new to new you won't be paying the same price. Have to get a used S&B to get near Razor II pricing even with the big S&B price drop on their basic reticles. Having used both extensively, I wouldn't pay more for an S&B.

As for reticles, I don't think the Horus are big draws but just another option Vortex offers now as some were asking. I bet the 7C outsells them by a good margin.

 

[lte82]

The PMii has better resolution, depth of field, CA control, and bigger eye box at max magnification than the Razor 2, but not by a lot. I would argue the Atacr has the same resolution and better CA control than the PMii, with better turrets, though a slightly tighter eye box at full magnification. They are all beyond good enough to not hold anyone back from winning, and we are splitting hairs to say which is better at this or that. I cant imagine anyone disappointed with the performance of any of these scopes, but I do prefer the PMii overall.

 

[Nik H]

I love the two that I have but they are losing the lead that hey once had over their competition. I will take my NF 7-35 any day of the week. I find it does most things a bit better than my 5-25s do.

If you can get it used for a good price and you can find a reticle that you like, I would not hesitate. They are a most excellent instrument. If you’re paying full price, I would do your homework relative to features and reticle selection. You may find something more attractive out there.

 

[hypertex]

My mainstay scope is the S&B 5-25 with MSR Reticle. Is it perfect? No. Is there anything better? Not with the features and reticle choices that are important to me.

In search of the perfect scope, and perfect reticle. So far they don't exist.

Ditto

 

[briang7511]

i switched to S&B about 2 yrs ago, really like the clarity and reticle. My best compromise amongst leading high end optics. Had vortex razors gen 1&2, NF and spent time behind a khales. I would like to take features from all of them to make MY perfect optic. Knobs on my PMII swap for gen 2 razor knobs would be great or swap the S&B glass into the gen 2 razor. found the razor glass to be not as bright as S&B, NF or Khales. I also find the pmII to handle mirage better than the others at higher magnification. I prefer a thinner reticle which i did not like in the khales or razor xmas trees .

 

[Rob01]

I prefer a thinner reticle which i did not like in the khales or razor xmas trees .

The reticles in the Razor II are .03 mils wide and are as fine or finer than the S&B reticles.

 

[kornface13]

For all you S&B folks that shoot PRS, what reticle do you use? I've only done one PRS match and I used my christmas tree on multiple stages. I can't imagine trying to compete without it as there simply wasn't always enough time to dial everything. Maybe I just need to get faster, but it sure is nice having a reticle that helps me. Anyways, if you don't have a tree I guess you just have to dial on every shot with wind? Clue me in please!

 

[briang7511]

The reticles in the Razor II are .03 mils wide and are as fine or finer than the S&B reticles.

the documentation i have on the gen 2 xr reticle is .025 mils

http://www.eurooptic.com/images-cache/B4/15/83DD/B41583DD78C9DF69A3CAD91CDA22C48248FB4E9F.jpg

 

[Rob01]

That's the only one then and only .005mils thinner. lol

Kornface, when I used the S&B in matches I used a P4F and a H2CMR. Holding wind and elevation took practice. It's definitely easier to have the marks there in a Christmas tree style reticle that isn't overly cluttered.

 

[Basher]

the documentation i have on the gen 2 xr reticle is .025 mils

http://www.eurooptic.com/images-cache/B4/15/83DD/B41583DD78C9DF69A3CAD91CDA22C48248FB4E9F.jpg

Can you REALLY see .005mil difference? I have a hard time thinking the vast majority of users can tell an appreciable difference, and even if they can, it subtends a negligible amount at 1K. We’re literally splitting hairs at this point.

 

[briang7511]

keep in mind you are magnifying those, so at 20-25 power its significant. but just my preference. used a EBRC1 for 2 years tried the 2 c and did not like the clutter. sometimes targets are small in prs and the reticle thickness matters. just my preference.

 

[Basher]

keep in mind you are magnifying those, so at 20-25 power its significant. but just my preference. used a EBRC1 for 2 years tried the 2 c and did not like the clutter. sometimes targets are small in prs and the reticle thickness matters. just my preference.

I’m not dogging on you for your preference at all, that’s an integral part of scope selection!

But with an FFP scope, .005mil is .005mil at any and all magnifications. To your eye, it grows in size when you increase the mag, yes. But so, too, does the target. It still covers the same amount of target area no matter the magnification.

But you’re correct, you have to live with it, and it’s your money. Buy what makes you happy, even if it is an almost imperceptible difference. You’re the only one who has to be happy with it!

 

[briang7511]

if my math is correct thats a 16-17% difference. i would suggest trying one out. Get a 6in circle at 400 yds and compare.

 

[Rob01]

Preferences are fine and it is your money but in PRS you will not see a difference in a .025 and a .03 mil reticle on targets. Been shooting the sport for 16 years and used a lot of reticles from .05 mils down to .03 mils. I actually did have a Gen II XR in a Premier Scope years back. Never used it in a match.

Also they are both FFP so they cover the same no matter the power. At 1000 yards the .025 is .9" and the 1.08" so not a huge difference.

 

[Basher]

if my math is correct thats a 16-17% difference. i would suggest trying one out. Get a 6in circle at 400 yds and compare.

See Rob’s comment above. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but I’d wager less than 5% of the shooting population can eyeball the difference between 0.9” and 1.08” at 1000K. And even if you can, you won’t be able to hold the difference at that distance.

But again, if you like ‘em thin, go for it! I had a Gen2XR briefly and liked it, but eventually took a step down from the 5-25x at the time. Kind of regret it, but oh well. That’s the life of a glass whore! I’ll likely have another down the road at some point, it’s an excellent uncluttered tree reticle!

 

[lte82]

For all you S&B folks that shoot PRS, what reticle do you use? I've only done one PRS match and I used my christmas tree on multiple stages. I can't imagine trying to compete without it as there simply wasn't always enough time to dial everything. Maybe I just need to get faster, but it sure is nice having a reticle that helps me. Anyways, if you don't have a tree I guess you just have to dial on every shot with wind? Clue me in please!

H2CMR. The majority of the barricade stages you can generally dial most of the windage out and/or fudge the rest if there are targets at multiple distances, because the ranges are generally pretty close to each other. On prone stages where you might have a troop line or multiple distances, you have enough time to dial elevation, so no tree is needed to hold for wind. Some MD's are actually having to write in "no dialing allowed" if they want you to not dial, because you can get fast enough to do it for just about everything.

Try shooting a group, on the clock, with your tree, say 4.5 mil elevation and 1.2 mil wind. On the new EBR-7C reticle that everyone is throwing their old Razor 2's away for, you don't have a solid hold point for either elevation or wind. How tight do you think you can actually shoot it, better yet, how precise are your corrections going to be? With targets that are frequently .3-.6 mil tall & wide, good luck. I'd rather spend the extra 3 seconds to dial elevation, then use a solid defined reference point on the main horizontal line to break the shot and correct from. Just my own thoughts on it...

 

[ThePretzel]

For all you S&B folks that shoot PRS, what reticle do you use? I've only done one PRS match and I used my christmas tree on multiple stages. I can't imagine trying to compete without it as there simply wasn't always enough time to dial everything. Maybe I just need to get faster, but it sure is nice having a reticle that helps me. Anyways, if you don't have a tree I guess you just have to dial on every shot with wind? Clue me in please!

I use a Tremor3. It's definitely a love it or absolutely hate it reticle, however. Some think it's too cluttered, others like the additional information in the reticle.

For me it means I need less information to make my wind holds and it allows me to picture wind holds in terms of wind speed directly. I know the high and low wind speeds that I expect to encounter and work off that info, instead of writing down a wind hold for every target. I prefer to holdover on stages with multiple targets at multiple distances because it gives me more time to build my shooting position and make a clean shot instead of fiddling with my turrets.

 

[bubba41]

yes .

 

[Rob01]

H2CMR. The majority of the barricade stages you can generally dial most of the windage out and/or fudge the rest if there are targets at multiple distances, because the ranges are generally pretty close to each other. On prone stages where you might have a troop line or multiple distances, you have enough time to dial elevation, so no tree is needed to hold for wind. Some MD's are actually having to write in "no dialing allowed" if they want you to not dial, because you can get fast enough to do it for just about everything.

Try shooting a group, on the clock, with your tree, say 4.5 mil elevation and 1.2 mil wind. On the new EBR-7C reticle that everyone is throwing their old Razor 2's away for, you don't have a solid hold point for either elevation or wind. How tight do you think you can actually shoot it, better yet, how precise are your corrections going to be? With targets that are frequently .3-.6 mil tall & wide, good luck. I'd rather spend the extra 3 seconds to dial elevation, then use a solid defined reference point on the main horizontal line to break the shot and correct from. Just my own thoughts on it...

Actually that is not always the case. Have shot many stages prone that you did not have time to dial everything. Just because you are prone does not make the clock tick any slower and 90 seconds is still 90 seconds. Have a stage at Frontline where you have to shoot prone 300, 1000, 500, 1000, 700, 1000, 900, 1000, 200, 1000. Most who try to dial time out. Holding that is the way to go and easy enough to do if you practice it.

First you are't shooting groups in PRS matches and I have done what you describe many times. Have done it in centerfire and rimfire matches where I have held over 7.6 mils and then had to hold over 2 mils of wind. It's easily done with practice and much easier and faster with a reticle like the 2C or 7C than the P4F or H2CMR, both of which I have shot extensively in matches as well. If you have the time to dial then yes it will be an easier option but the bottom line is sometimes you don't and having the marks help.

 

[lte82]

@Rob01 I know there can be stages where holding can be faster, but I'd say 95%+ here aren't that way, at least in the 15-20 matches I've shot. For me a non-tree reticle is easier to use because its symmetrical and simpler to aim with, and I'd rather have that for the 95% of stages where I can dial than deal with a busier reticle that might help me pick up a point or two on the 5% of stages I cant. If I run into a match where I think I might need one, I have a gen 3xr Tangent I can drop on, but for now it's going to be my backup lol.

 

[Rob01]

95%? Man you need some better MDs out there. LOL The Christmas tree doesn't have to be used all the time but there if needed. The main part of the reticle can be used just like the one you do but if you need to hold out in those lower quadrants it's nice to have as it makes the hold much more accurate.

But reticles are personal preference so use what you like but I wouldn't give up a point or two that easy. They are hard enough to get.

 

[lte82]

Hey dont give any MDs ideas Rob lol.

 

[nexusfire]

I can respect your opinion and experience on the matter, but everything I have seen with my own eyes and everything I have heard and read from others says that the S&B glass has better contrast and less bleeding of colors across all light conditions.

A very small difference between the two, to be sure, but if you're paying the same price for both and like the reticle offerings of the S&B (enough people prefer the Horus reticles that Vortex is now offering them too) it seems to make little sense to purchase a Razor over the S&B at the same price unless you're a lefty or are incredibly hard on scopes and need the additional warranty of the Vortex.

And don't forget Rob01 is sponsored by Vortex...

 

[m6z]

I've yet to see any H59 or T3 reticle scopes for sub $2K. Can someone point me to them?

 

[Temper]

I've yet to see any H59 or T3 reticle scopes for sub $2K. Can someone point me to them?

Those and the Gen2XR’s are the only ones that have been maintaining their value above 2k. Horus reticles are always 300-400 more than “standard” reticles across the board.

 

[Rob01]

And don't forget Rob01 is sponsored by Vortex...

Never hidden or denied but I get nothing if they buy a Vortex scope or not. I have no monatary dog in the fight as I am not a vendor etc. That said it doesn't negate the fact I have used many optics and reticles being discussed here in matches for many years and have a lot of first hand experience with them so don't try and disregard my experience with one offhanded sentence.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Never hidden or denied but I get nothing if they buy a Vortex scope or not. I have no monatary dog in the fight as I am not a vendor etc. That said it doesn't negate the fact I have used many optics and reticles being discussed here in matches for many years and have a lot of first hand experience with them so don't try and disregard my experience with one offhanded sentence.

Just remember that’s the same guy who publicly accused someone of stealing an idea an individual helped create.

When said original owner of that company came on here and set the record straight, not a peep out of Nexusfire to recant or apologize.

Known shit starter, starting shit.

 

[lte82]

Those and the Gen2XR’s are the only ones that have been maintaining their value above 2k. Horus reticles are always 300-400 more than “standard” reticles across the board.

I wonder how dealers are making money on them if they are only worth $2000.

 

[Dthomas3523]

H2CMR. The majority of the barricade stages you can generally dial most of the windage out and/or fudge the rest if there are targets at multiple distances, because the ranges are generally pretty close to each other. On prone stages where you might have a troop line or multiple distances, you have enough time to dial elevation, so no tree is needed to hold for wind. Some MD's are actually having to write in "no dialing allowed" if they want you to not dial, because you can get fast enough to do it for just about everything.

Try shooting a group, on the clock, with your tree, say 4.5 mil elevation and 1.2 mil wind. On the new EBR-7C reticle that everyone is throwing their old Razor 2's away for, you don't have a solid hold point for either elevation or wind. How tight do you think you can actually shoot it, better yet, how precise are your corrections going to be? With targets that are frequently .3-.6 mil tall & wide, good luck. I'd rather spend the extra 3 seconds to dial elevation, then use a solid defined reference point on the main horizontal line to break the shot and correct from. Just my own thoughts on it...

I’ll caveat with the fact that I prefer reticles like h2cmr, skmr1, and mpct1.

But, it depends on the stage. When you get on a stage at say a range like you see at Rifles Only, 100 seconds, multiple targets, and multiple ranges, combined with mag drops/exchanges, even though you don’t have a prefectly defined aiming point, it’s nice to have some guides to help.

There is also an arguement that if you are efficient with your time, you should still be able to do all that am dial. I agree, but it takes a lot more training/practice to accomplish than most have time dire.

I currently keep mpct1 and mpct2 reticles on hand. If I know a certain range or MD likes to put in cramped stages or I see a cof beforehand see them, I run the mpct2 with tree.

Otherwise I run the mpct1.

I am also of the opinion the tree is just there as a backup utility. So I typically recommend, if funds aren’t available for multiple optics, get the tree. Otherwise, buy both and use them accordingly.