Is There a Real Sub-MOA .22 Rifle?

[Buck Wilde]

I have a few .22 rifles as well as a Savage 93R in .17 HMR. The .22s are not bad guns, but the Savage generally shoots sub-MOA, and the others will not.

I've noticed that there are now a few "precision" .22 rifles out there, and I have a boatload of .22 ammo. Is there anything available that will shoot sub-MOA, or is it a waste of time trying to get there with .22 LR? I've seen some videos of people shooting "precision" .22 rifles, and they seemed really happy with 1.5-2 MOA.

 

[IamJoHo]

Vudoo. But sub moa at what distance.

 

[justin amateur]

You asked the wrong question.
There are plenty of sub-moa rifles. Really, there are.
What there is an extreme shortage of, is sub-moa capable rimfire cartridges.
That's the where the constriction actually occurs.

Take a close look at y'er cartridges, what do you see?
Dents, dings, scratches, chips, damaged drive bands, uneven bullet seating,
tilted bullet seating, lousy crimps, bullet material compressed down over the crimp line onto the brass.
That's not going to produce predictable trajectories. And when y'er chronograph is showing an ES
in excess of 50 fps, y'er chance of a sub-moa group just left the building.
Without high quality cartridges, you ain't going to be able to get the job done.

A first rate rifle using second rate ammo produces second rate results. Fact.

 

[brianf]

Go to the Rimfire 5x5 thread then look at the vudoo thread.
All the answers you will recurve have been posted there 1000 times over

 

[LuvDog]

When it comes to 22lr, it's more about the ammo that works well in your rifle.

 

[woogie_man]

Very easy to do.....

What range?
What ammo?
What conditions?

My quad range is easily sub-moa, and quite fun to shoot.

 

[b6graham]

Vudoo RimX Anschutz CZ etc

But you need to define yardage and ammo expectations

 

[Franko]

I find that the biggest obstacle to owning a sub MOA gun is the wind and consistent ammo...

 

[vinniedelpino]

Definitely at 50. I have two (gasp) savage mkii's that shoot minimags 1/2" at 50yds that set me back less than $300.

 

[justin amateur]

that shoot minimags 1/2" at 50yds

Yep, it's possible....but with what kind of consistency?

Don't go saying "all day long", because around here that's not allowed without proof.

I've tried Mini-Mags...they're bulk hunting cartridges and they're made by CCI.
They are visibly beat to snot fresh out of the box when you take a close look.

That's an image direct from the retailer...

Here's what happens at 100 yards for 50 shots...

 

[Buck Wilde]

Okay, so let's say 1" at 100 yards.

Funny thing; I just took the 93R out and shot a mess. Don't know if it was the wind or what.

 

[justin amateur]

Consistent results with rimfire at 100 yards?
You tell me...we've been trying for a while..

The whole box at 100 yards

Just a thought...what do y'all think would happen, if 5 shot groups went the way of the dodo, and if ya' were going to show off how well ye'r rifle can do at 100 yards, was accomplished by sending all 50 shots at a single aimpoint. I have a feeling it'd pretty much end claims of "sub-moa all day...

www.snipershide.com

 

[vinniedelpino]

that shoot minimags 1/2" at 50yds

Yep, it's possible....but with what kind of consistency?

Don't go saying "all day long", because around here that's not allowed without proof.

I've tried Mini-Mags...they're bulk hunting cartridges and they're made by CCI.
They are visibly beat to snot fresh out of the box when you take a close look.

That's an image direct from the retailer...

Here's what happens at 100 yards for 50 shots...

I know. Wild right? I started with a couple different Eley varieties, sk and wolf match. They all shot like crap.

I busted out the mini mags to set up a new shooter on the bench next to mind and lo and behold... it shot great. Sometimes weird stuff happens.

On another note... I've had similar results from a CZ.

 

[justin amateur]

That's the rimfire lottery for ya'.
Sometimes CCI gets it right.

 

[Buck Wilde]

So in short, the answer is no. So if I get something like a Ruger Precision Rimfire in .22 LR, I'll be doing great if I can do 2 MOA at 50, which is pretty much what a good semiauto will do.

 

[AZ Dan]

It's all about the ammo. Plenty of rifles can do it, but can the person on the trigger?

 

[vinniedelpino]

So in short, the answer is no. So if I get something like a Ruger Precision Rimfire in .22 LR, I'll be doing great if I can do 2 MOA at 50, which is pretty much what a good semiauto will do.

I don't think that's the conclusion I'd draw.

It's just more luck of the draw and/or trial and error. I don't have any scientific data to back this up, but I don't think the cost vs. accuracy relationship of centerfire rifles applies as well to rimfires. If I were looking for an accurate bolt gun I'd do this:

1. Buy a mark ii or maybe a cz452
2. Buy a bunch of different 50 round boxes of .22lr
3. Test each type of ammo. If results are acceptable, keep it. If not, sell it and start the process over with another rifle and take a small loss.

You'll get where you want to be with a little trial and error. You'll probably have enough coin left over to throw it in an oryx or something similar too.

 

[CodeMonkey]

So in short, the answer is no. So if I get something like a Ruger Precision Rimfire in .22 LR, I'll be doing great if I can do 2 MOA at 50, which is pretty much what a good semiauto will do.

The answer is a qualified yes. Just about every rifle will have some variety of ammo that just magically works well for some reason, and many of those will turn out to be sub-MOA under the right conditions.

There is no way to guarantee that any rifle, no matter how "precision", will shoot sub-MOA with every variety of ammo because there's a mind-boggling number of options out there. If you're looking for the highest probability of achieving sub-MOA accuracy the answer is Voodoo, but even a Voodoo with crap ammo will shoot like crap. My T1X and my B14R are capable of sub-MOA accuracy with their preferred ammo. There are more varieties that I have found to shoot that well with the B14R, but there is literally no variety that I've found that shoots that good in both rifles. You just have to test ammo until you find that magic combination. And then there's different lot numbers of ammo...

It's the rimfire lottery that we all play. The best you can do is spend the money on a rifle that increases your odds of finding that perfect combination.

 

[Luke22:36]

100 yard average:

1: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (Padom- Zermatt RimX Krieger 6/12/20)
2: 0.542” / 0.518 MOA (Steelhead- Vudoo V-22 4/26/20)
3: 0.554” / 0.529 MOA (learjet- Vudoo V-22 5/26/20)
4: 0.559” / 0.524 MOA (Kevin1- Vudoo V-22 12/5/20)
5: 0.570” / 0.544 MOA (Cuzz- Vudoo V-22 6/1/20)
6: 0.571” / 0.545 MOA (simpletoms- H&R model 12 Penrod build 4/19/20)
7: 0.583“ / 0.557 MOA (reubenski- Zermatt RimX Shilen 6/1/20)
8: 0.583” / 0.557 MOA (Rimfireshooter99- Anschutz 1903 SBR 8/28/20)
9: 0.586“ / 0.560 MOA (RainerRimfire- Vudoo V-22 5/17/20)
10: 0.592” / 0.565 MOA (padom- Zermatt Rim X Keystone Green Mountain 5/13/20)
11: 0.646” / 0.576 MOA (barronian-Sauer 200 TR 3/30/20) *100 meters
12: 0.630” / 0.602 MOA (padom- Zermatt Rim X Benchmark 4/23/20)
13: 0.643” / 0.614 MOA (Krob95- Vudoo V-22 Proof 8/16/20)
14: 0.646” / 0.617 MOA (ballisticdaddy- Vudoo V-22 11/3/20)
15: 0.680”/ 0.630 MOA (littlepod- Tikka T1X 1/4/20) *103.5 yards
16: 0.664” / 0.634 MOA (jgraves- Vudoo V-22 6/14/20)
17: 0.687” / 0.656 MOA (Emily Bell- Vudoo V-22 20 Kukri 11/20/20)
18: 0.690” / 0.640 MOA (littlepod- Vudoo V-22 5/10/20) *103.5 yards
19: 0.691” / 0.660 MOA (drglock- Zermatt RimX Green Mountain 8/4/20)
20: 0.710” / 0.678 MOA (Payton Bell- Vudoo V-22 22” Kukri 11/20/20)
21: 0.719” / 0.687 MOA (BigRed308- CZ 457 MTR 4/25/20)
22: 0.732” / 0.699 MOA (Jack Hart- Tikka T1X 3/13/20)
23: 0.742” / 0.709 MOA (drglock- CZ 457 Lilja 5/9/20)
24: 0.750” / 0.716 MOA (22fun- Vudoo V-22 3/12/20)
25: 0.770” / 0.735 MOA (BillOH- Vudoo V-22 9/6/20)
26: 0.785” / 0.750 MOA (Tomiboy- Tikka T1X 11/5/20)
27: 0.802” / 0.759 MOA (melglass- Bergara B14 CARBON 9/2/20) *101 Yards
28: 0.815” / 0.778 MOA (RETE8- Anschutz 1717 HB 11/7/20) *17 HMR*
29: 0.822” / 0.785 MOA (tsgarp- Bergara B14R 8/20/20)
30: 0.863” / 0.816 MOA (melglass- Bergara B14 STEEL 8/5/20) *101 yards
31: 0.879” / 0.840 MOA (RETE8- Anschutz 1720HB 11/7/20) *22 MAG*
32: 0.940” / 0.824 MOA (Near Miss- Sako Quad 5/12/20) *109 yards
33: 0.879” / 0.840 MOA (Travclem- CZ 457 Bartlein 7/21/20)
34: 0.923” / 0.864 MOA (Emily Bell- Zermatt RimX 9/12/20) *102 yards
35: 0.988” / 0.944 MOA (kashaV- CZ Super Brno 9/4/20)
36: 1.018” / 0.972 MOA (DRACO- Vudoo V-22 4/18/20)
37: 1.050” / 1.003 MOA (Gjmen22- Vudoo V-22 10/26/20)
38: 1.108” / 1.058 MOA (melglass- CZ 457 PV 8/17/20)
39: 1.145” / 1.094 MOA (BillOH- Anschutz MPR 9/6/20)
40: 1.167” / 1.115 MOA (Biscuits- Tikka T1X 10/27/20)
41: 1.189” / 1.136 MOA (BillOH- Ruger 10/22 CPC 9/6/20)

 

[Buck Wilde]

How many shots per group in those averages?

 

[justin amateur]

Those results are from jbell's 6x5, Buck.
6 five shot groups on one target.

More important than the average 5 shot group size,
how much did each group shift relative to point of aim?
Sure ya' have a 5 shot group that measures 0.42 inches at 100 yards.
And the next group measures 0.27 inches....
but it ended up 0.6 inches right and 0.7 inches down from the previous group.

How big would the 30 shot aggregate measure?

I know...annoying old coot, ain't I.

 

[Buck Wilde]

Sorry; I was talking about these averages:

1: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (Padom- Zermatt RimX Krieger 6/12/20)
2: 0.542” / 0.518 MOA (Steelhead- Vudoo V-22 4/26/20)
3: 0.554” / 0.529 MOA (learjet- Vudoo V-22 5/26/20)
4: 0.559” / 0.524 MOA (Kevin1- Vudoo V-22 12/5/20)
5: 0.570” / 0.544 MOA (Cuzz- Vudoo V-22 6/1/20)...

 

[squishee]

He actually told you ....... 30 shots


6 five shot groups on one target
6x5 =30

 

[hlee]

My Kidd 10/22 is on the 50 yard 6x5 thread. Easily shoots sub moa at 50 y, with Lapua centerX.

 

[Bmwe36as]

Where is the rimfire 5x5 thread?!

 

[b6graham]

Where is the rimfire 5x5 thread?!

6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

Hey guys welcome back to the "NEW OLD HIDE", its good to be home! So getting back to business I am starting the 6X5 thread over from scratch. Same rules: Rules are pretty simple. There must be exactly six groups of 5 shots, all on one target board. No more, no less. Every shot on the group...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Tim7139]

You asked the wrong question.
There are plenty of sub-moa rifles. Really, there are.
What there is an extreme shortage of, is sub-moa capable rimfire cartridges.
That's the where the constriction actually occurs.

Take a close look at y'er cartridges, what do you see?
Dents, dings, scratches, chips, damaged drive bands, uneven bullet seating,
tilted bullet seating, lousy crimps, bullet material compressed down over the crimp line onto the brass.
That's not going to produce predictable trajectories. And when y'er chronograph is showing an ES
in excess of 50 fps, y'er chance of a sub-moa group just left the building.
Without high quality cartridges, you ain't going to be able to get the job done.

A first rate rifle using second rate ammo produces second rate results. Fact.

gotta love the internet bullshit.
With 5 minutes of searching, you can find all the match ammo you need.
Christ, within the last 48 hours alone, I got an email about 9 fresh cases of Lapua alone. You planning on scoring more than 9 cases?This ain’t tough guys, do a minimum of freaking homework. If you’re looking to score match at your local shop, that train left the station some time ago.
I know of at least 8 well known internet shippers with match ammo and most will send email updates.

 

[Buck Wilde]

I think I get it now.

I was wondering what the 5x5 thread was. Now I see it was a typo.

Some of those entries are .17 HMR. I'm not surprised to see good performance from that round, but seeing it from a 10/22 is really something.

 

[justin amateur]

Tim, don't you just love internet bs?

I do... y'er answer was a prime example.
Do ya' know why? Allow me to explain.

There are boxes labeled "match", there are brands that specialize in producing competition quality cartridges,
but just because it's sold for use in competition
doesn't guarantee that the ammo is good enough to produce submoa consistently.
There's a reason the factory test facilities do such good business.
Trying to find a case or five of cartridges actually capable of consistent trajectories
is a time consuming job and the posted test results show just how many attempts it takes
to find that one batch that is going to be good enough.
Purchasing a random batch of Tenex, or Midas+ or R50 is no guarantee of predictable results.
Go ahead, ask me how I learned that bit of information.

Did y'all ever notice that if the word "Match" is on the label, it probably isn't?

AutoMatch, Match Target, Super Match, Hunter Match, Long Range Match.....

 

[Kevin1]

All my 22lr guns are sub moa, at least up to 50 yards with mid-grade ammo. No exceptions.

If not, I either work on it, or sell it by disclosing the issue.

I had a new Savage Mark2 G I bough for $200. Didn't shoot well. I send it to a gunsmith to get an accuracy package ($250 I think), and it started to shoot around 0.5" (barely) at 50Y.
I had a new CZ455 that just couldn't shoot better than 0.75" at 50Y. The gun had nice wood and I sold it to a guy that loved the look and though it's accurate enough for him.

 

[Tim7139]

Tim, don't you just love internet bs?

I do... y'er answer was a prime example.
Do ya' know why? Allow me to explain.

There are boxes labeled "match", there are brands that specialize in producing competition quality cartridges,
but just because it's sold for use in competition
doesn't guarantee that the ammo is good enough to produce submoa consistently.
There's a reason the factory test facilities do such good business.
Trying to find a case or five of cartridges actually capable of consistent trajectories
is a time consuming job and the posted test results show just how many attempts it takes
to find that one batch that is going to be good enough.
Purchasing a random batch of Tenex, or Midas+ or R50 is no guarantee of predictable results.
Go ahead, ask me how I learned that bit of information.

the point is/was while not abundant, it’s out there, plenty to test, ergo you’re extreme shortage.......bullshit. And for the record, the VAST majority is bought without tunnel testing. When the ELEY lot analyzer was running, most black/red box was sub MOA.
Maybe, just maybe, you should be looking at your equipment/skillset.
Plenty to test......next topic.

 

[justin amateur]

Plenty to test...true.
Finding that batch good enough to do the job?
Hope y'er luckier than I am.

 

[Merlin O]

All it takes is an expensive high quality rifle.

 

[justin amateur]

Daaayyyyuuuummm M!

What diameter is that barrel?

I like the barrel block attachment.
2 thumbs up.

 

[Tim7139]

Plenty to test...true.
Finding that batch good enough to do the job?
Hope y'er luckier than I am.

your words, “extreme shortage”. Now we’re at “plenty to test, true”.
I think we’re done here.

 

[Dthomas3523]

your words, “extreme shortage”. Now we’re at “plenty to test, true”.
I think we’re done here.

Ya’ll are misinterpreting each other.

He’s not saying there’s a general shortage of ammo. He’s saying that ammo capable of shooting what he considers acceptable isn’t abundant.

 

[Tim7139]

All it takes is an expensive high quality rifle.

I give, what’s the double ended wrench welded in there for?

 

[Tim7139]

Ya’ll are misinterpreting each other.

He’s not saying there’s a general shortage of ammo. He’s saying that ammo capable of shooting what he considers acceptable isn’t abundant.

Well, historically if you looked at ELEY analyzer data on black/red box when it was up, as well as Lapua test info, I believe it was on an order of magnitude of something like 80%+, so since there are reasonable supplies of all of the above, etc. etc.
without knowing where the guy tests, equipment, etc. I suspect the answers might be a bit more complicated than the “abandon all hope, ye” type posts.
everybody has thoughts.....there’s mine.

 

[b6graham]

You're wrong on so many levels.

 

[Luke22:36]

I give, what’s the double ended wrench welded in there for?

I think it's just laying on the bench behind the bipod. I'm curious about the "source" used for the bipod feet...

 

[justin amateur]

Well Tim, ya' know what this means right?
If we're gonna talk about it, we might as well find out if the ammo is capable.
The OP wants to see if sub moa is consistent at 100 yards with rimfire.
I'm of a negative opinion on that due to past experience.
You feel there's plenty of ammo that'll do the job.
Use y'er favorite rig, any setup, indoors or out, rimfire at 100 yards.
50 shots at a single aimpoint, no excuses, let's see that group size.
So far, only one shooter has achieved the goal.
He used a Vudoo with lot tested CenterX.
I've been doing this at 200 yards for a couple years and a few months at 100.
Hasn't happened yet for me, let's see if any of the 'hide shooters can get it done.

Instigator? Me? Maybe?

Shoot 'em and post the results.
Add to this thread...

The whole box at 100 yards

Just a thought...what do y'all think would happen, if 5 shot groups went the way of the dodo, and if ya' were going to show off how well ye'r rifle can do at 100 yards, was accomplished by sending all 50 shots at a single aimpoint. I have a feeling it'd pretty much end claims of "sub-moa all day...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Tim7139]

I think it's just laying on the bench behind the bipod. I'm curious about the "source" used for the bipod feet...

nope, that’s one, look at the welded one between action and “trigger guard” or whatever the hell that is.
Hopefully those were spent CO2 cartridges before welding commenced.
First “Steampunk “ rifle I’ve seen.

 

[Luke22:36]

nope, that’s one, look at the welded one between action and “trigger guard” or whatever the hell that is.
Hopefully those were spent CO2 cartridges before welding commenced.
First “Steampunk “ rifle I’ve seen.

Ha ha, Oh, THAT one! Wow...

 

[Tim7139]

Well Tim, ya' know what this means right?
If we're gonna talk about it, we might as well find out if the ammo is capable.
The OP wants to see if sub moa is consistent at 100 yards with rimfire.
I'm of a negative opinion on that due to past experience.
You feel there's plenty of ammo that'll do the job.
Use y'er favorite rig, any setup, indoors or out, rimfire at 100 yards.
50 shots at a single aimpoint, no excuses, let's see that group size.
So far, only one shooter has acheived the goal.
He used a Vudoo with lot tested CenterX.
I've been doing this at 200 yards for a couple years and a few months at 100.
Hasn't happened yet for me, let's see if any of the 'hide shooters can get it done.

Instigator? Me? Maybe?

Or, instead, we could go look over @ the 6x5 thread, or whatever it’s called. Lots of 100 yard groups there, most not much more than 1/2 MOA. Can all those guys have the secret stash of unobtainium ammo ?
so now we have morphed from MOA to some bullshit 50 shot challange.

oh, lastly, go look at the string of 50 yd groups Stiller put up.......every one with a different lot. You think they would carry MOA @100 ?

 

[Aussiedan]

Plenty of sub moa guns, plenty of sub moa ammo (after some testing to see what your rifle likes)

Thats why rimfire is so addictive, working to piece together the perfect combination to gain consistent results.
**Emphasis on consistency**
Nobody cares about 1 freak group out of 100.
Thats why the 6x5 and 50@100 exist.

 

[justin amateur]

Tim, if you look carefully, you'll find I've posted quite a few results in the 6x5 challenge.
22lr, 22wmr and 17 hmr at 100 and 200 yards.
If you feel that a box of cartridges is an expense you can't afford, no worries.
If it's because you think it might be difficult to replace that box of good ammo,
you've already pointed out there's plenty available that's sub moa capable.
Maybe.

As my grandpa said: don't talk about it, show me.

50 at 100, ought to be easy, right?

 

[...]

Sub MOA at 50yds is more than doable.

Sub MOA at 100yds is a lot more difficult.

i built the most advanced testing tunnel in N. America for a client that exceeds what they have at Eley and Lapua......and ive tested what has to be close to 1Mil rounds of .22 through various rifles.....i have not seen a rifle/ammo combo that will do it consistently, especially outdoors in the wind.

the X-ring on an A-25(NRA 100yd small bore) target is 1".....if you look at the records for Smallbore Prone, the last 400-40x was shot in the 70's.

now we certainly have rifles that exceed the technology from 50yrs ago.....and the shooters are certainly on par......what isnt is the Ammo.

From what i understand, changes in primer compound is the biggest factor effecting .22lr accuracy

 

[justin amateur]

Mc, you wouldn't happen to have a pic of that facility?

I do enjoy my rifle pron.

 

[...]

Mc, you wouldn't happen to have a pic of that facility?

I do enjoy my rifle pron.

unfortunately i dont, i thought i had some at one point but i think theyve been lost with time.

essentially the range consists of several Meyton electronic targets positioned in series out to 100yds all running to a computer running software we collabed with OnTarget with to develop. this allows us to see the path of the bullet in real time through the entire trajectory.

 

[SCRAM2013]

Still can't do it with the 452. Anything over ten rounds. 6x 50 yards. Stock rifle. Ammo testing still in progress. I'm 0.75 to 1.0

50 rounds at 100 yards. Same target? Get your wallet out. I'm not a BR shooter obviously. Hillbilly

E