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Is There a Real Sub-MOA .22 Rifle?
- Thread starter Buck Wilde
- Start date
Snowman...define "very well."
I can't get my hands on any 22wmr cartridges that will produce consistent accuracy at 100 yards.
ES in excess of 200 fps and fliers/strays that annoy the cr*p out of me.
I can't get my hands on any 22wmr cartridges that will produce consistent accuracy at 100 yards.
ES in excess of 200 fps and fliers/strays that annoy the cr*p out of me.
Yep...bulk hunting cartridges, both the jsp and fmj, from AnschutzNA
4 boxes, 50 bucks a box, 1 dollar a cartridge.
Over 200 fps ES, results looked like the dog pound, strays all over.
RWS 40 grain Full Metal Jacket 22wmr Link to post Link to post
RWS 40 grain Jacketed Soft Point 22wmr Link to post Link to post
4 boxes, 50 bucks a box, 1 dollar a cartridge.
Over 200 fps ES, results looked like the dog pound, strays all over.
RWS 40 grain Full Metal Jacket 22wmr Link to post Link to post
RWS 40 grain Jacketed Soft Point 22wmr Link to post Link to post
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Buck I have 3 sub moa guns. Kidd Supergrade, Tikka T1X, and a Bregara B14R. I have shot many, many groups with these guns That are sub 1/2 moa at 50yds. They can run sub moa out to 200yds. under good conditions, that will be the case with any 22LR. see post below. the pic is a 6X5. Past 50yds. ( and at 50yds) the wind will clean your clock.
SK Biathlon Sport
Got out today to test SK Biathlon sport. started out at 50 yds. Shot it in a Tikka T1X and Bergara B14R. Moved to 100yds and shot my KYL 9/16", 3/8", 3/16" ran it 2 times with the Bergara. Moves to 150yds. first group is 1.5" group with 1" vertical, second is 1" with no vertical. shot with Bergara.
www.snipershide.com
Buy a Vudoo
lot test center x and buy 10k rounds of it
top quality scope like Nightforce Atacr 7x35
Practice practice
Even with everything spot on only way to have consists subgroup you have to shoot indoors control environment And the shooter can perform the EXACT same form and follow through every shot.
Outside shooting for 22lr the variables are so great even if you think it’s a perfect day there’s always something that effects it.Human,Mother Nature etc
One round that is not exact and you have a flyer there goes the sub group.
22 LR will drive you crazy If you want sub groups everytime .
lot test center x and buy 10k rounds of it
top quality scope like Nightforce Atacr 7x35
Practice practice
Even with everything spot on only way to have consists subgroup you have to shoot indoors control environment And the shooter can perform the EXACT same form and follow through every shot.
Outside shooting for 22lr the variables are so great even if you think it’s a perfect day there’s always something that effects it.Human,Mother Nature etc
One round that is not exact and you have a flyer there goes the sub group.
22 LR will drive you crazy If you want sub groups everytime .
The answer is that if you want to shoot sub moa at 100, the .22 long rifle is not the cartridge for it.
If you want to shoot sub moa at 300, training with the .22 at 30 yards or 50 foot small bore range... until you out all your shots in the same hole... will help you put all your center fires in the inch at 300. In that the .22 LR excels. Because it is a highly-consistent cartridge at close range and will force you to perfect your fundamentals. Same with good .177 air guns.
If you want to shoot .22 at 100, get a Hornet. A .22 lr was not intended to be a 100 yard precision rifle. No matter what the ammo or gun. It’s not the Gun for the job.
Experimental evidence shows it. Anecdotal evidence shows it. 150 years of shooting it shows it. Physics and external ballistics science shows it. The short answer is: Don’t ask a .22 LR to do the job of a center fire.
It’s like someone asking why their Jeep Wrangler can’t win LeMans... even with a fuel additive and racing slicks.
Sirhr
If you want to shoot sub moa at 300, training with the .22 at 30 yards or 50 foot small bore range... until you out all your shots in the same hole... will help you put all your center fires in the inch at 300. In that the .22 LR excels. Because it is a highly-consistent cartridge at close range and will force you to perfect your fundamentals. Same with good .177 air guns.
If you want to shoot .22 at 100, get a Hornet. A .22 lr was not intended to be a 100 yard precision rifle. No matter what the ammo or gun. It’s not the Gun for the job.
Experimental evidence shows it. Anecdotal evidence shows it. 150 years of shooting it shows it. Physics and external ballistics science shows it. The short answer is: Don’t ask a .22 LR to do the job of a center fire.
It’s like someone asking why their Jeep Wrangler can’t win LeMans... even with a fuel additive and racing slicks.
Sirhr
But based on what I see here in my AO that apparently it all changes with the addition of a light bar over the windshield B/C everyone has a light bar on their Wrangler. All I can figure is they are all prepping for LeMans
You are absolutely right in the fact that asking a 22lr to be like a center fire is pointless.
I would suggest that a 22lr is good for more the 50 yard practice. If your practicing for bench rest then maybe 50 is good. But if your practicing for prs or long range hunting then atleast 100 yards 150 is a good distance as most rifles and ammo are consistent enough that you can learn wind.
Well, at least that means 'something' on a Wrangler will go light speed! ;-)But based on what I see here in my AO that apparently it all changes with the addition of a light bar over the windshield B/C everyone has a light bar on their Wrangler. All I can figure is they are all prepping for LeMans
I am guilty of that, BTW. Yes, Light bar.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Yes and no... the reason for the 'yes' is that it is very good for things like wind calls.
But at a certain point, the bullet is never going to go where YOU are aiming it (or capable of aiming it). At that point, you get frustrated and it doesn't help your fundamentals.
If you can lie down and shoot a 50 foot small bore target and put out the center of each tiny little bullseye... then you know your fundamentals are good. If you try and do the same thing at 300 feet, then you won't 'know' if your fundamentals are good. Because of the very random nature of most .22 ammo beyond a certain range.
You can train for PRS with a high-grade pellet rifle and have good fundamentals at far less cost and aggravation than a .22.
As Jbell pointed out, the last 100 yd 40x x 400 target was fired in... the '70s? That should tell folks something.
Again, .22's are incredible rifles. Great training tools. Small bore shooting is one of the most demanding sports there is. But it's shot at 50 feet for a reason. And the reason is the ballistic limitations of the cartridge, which was based on a tiny parlour shooting cartridge. Not on a cartridge engineered for long distances.
Just because one can, doesn't mean one should.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Shooting rimfire at 100 and 200 can definitely show weaknesses in your fundamentals.
Results get much more exaggerated as you go further out.
Results get much more exaggerated as you go further out.
With greatest respect, no! Shooting rimfire at 100 and 200 will definitely show weaknesses in the cartridge at that range. And you will think your fundamentals are off. Even if they are perfect.
Shooting a .22 within the range for which it was designed will show your real fundamentals. Otherwise your good fundamentals will be masked by the limitations of the cartridge.
Again, for things like wind calls, etc. Perhaps there is some value. But calling wind over 100 is not like calling wind over 500 or 1000. And your cartridge is still more limited by its external ballistics and velocity, etc. So, again, your otherwise excellent fundamentals can be made to look bad by the limitations of the platform. That does you no good. Because you keep training and training and getting no results... or training wrong... and getting the same results.
Use a firearm/cartridge/platform for its intended purpose and then your fundamentals will be an independant factor. If you use a cartridge that is essentially hitting in a random pattern (not a group) by the time it reaches beyond its intended design range, now you have a random factor masking your fundamentals, good or bad.
Is a .22 useful for training for long range? 100 percent yes. Is it useful for training by shooting it AT long range? Perhaps some. But realistically, you are better off with a cartridge designed for longer ranges. A cartridge that does not make your fundamentals look bad due to its inherent design limitations.
Cheers, Sirhr
Actually the record is 39X, 5 categories, then 38X, 37X, your talking about prone, out of a sling
.......... so prone out of a sling my goddam rifle and ammunition won't shoot MOA for 40 shots hahaha, BULLSHIT!
I found that I can have crap fundamentals and shoot pretty well at 50. When I go to 100-200 and I do things like not properly shouldering the rifle or supporting the rear that I will get much worse vertical stringing. But yes I do agree the cartridge is limiting.
Vudoo? Why would I want a Vudoo, Jesse?
That doesn't confirm Insanity, just good sense.
For proof of Insanity, you have to remember,
I'm the lunatic that built a Fuglie, and installed a Lilja in it.
That doesn't confirm Insanity, just good sense.
For proof of Insanity, you have to remember,
I'm the lunatic that built a Fuglie, and installed a Lilja in it.
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Vudoo? Why would I want a Vudoo, Jesse?
That doesn't confirm Insanity, just good sense.
For proof of Insanity, you have to remember,
I'm the lunatic that built a Fuglie, and installed a Lilja in it.
I’m assuming this might be the only example incorporating a “drywall screw” bedding approach?
My Tikka T1X is sub moa at 50 yds all day long with at least a half dozen different types of ammo but groups open up at 75 yds to moa and at 100 yds it's 1.5 moa.
Ammo is the downfall of the 22lr
Ammo is the downfall of the 22lr
I will have to respectfully disagree in part. I dont know what all experience you have with PRS type competitions. PRS has so many dimensions to it that training with a air rifle wouldn't be a good tool in general because the process of reloading mag changes and clearing a malfunction etc. are different.
For specific fundamental training yes it is a option. I do some drills at 50 yards looking at group size but more specifically location in relation to the bullseye. Because prone has so little to do with PRS I use it for my baselines and gathering dope. After my baseline is set I will confirm zero from different positions on barricades. All at 50 yards. If zero moves I then have to diagnose the rifle.
If you have a ammo that shoots 7/8" groups prone and a ammo that shoots 1-1/4" groups and off of a barricade you are capable of only shooting 1-1/2" groups the more accurate ammo does little to nothing to improve your positional groups. Most 22lr are consistent enough to 150 yards to show positional errors and have enough wind for good training. If you are wanting to work on the fundamentals without wind causing a effect. Or with a newer shooter I find that closer is better to start as I can then tell if they pulled a shot bad with less interference from conditions.
What you are saying is very true from a prone fundamentals point of view but with NRL22X being the focus of the thread there are a lot of other factors that come into effect for what is the best training.
Tim, there are a few other redneck barrel block rigs out there.
Ugly Betty is one, the others show up from time to time.
I have one for my Lilja 17 hmr, the CZ 455 Son Of Fuglie.
My 200 yard varminting rig.
Ugly Betty is one, the others show up from time to time.
I have one for my Lilja 17 hmr, the CZ 455 Son Of Fuglie.
My 200 yard varminting rig.
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Assuming one considers the 6 x 5 Challenge a good test, then the V3.0 results are:
50yd Average
15 sub 0.5 MOA; 55 sub 1.0 MOA
100yd Average
1 sub 0.5 MOA; 22 sub 1.0 MOA
200yd Average
Zero sub 0.5 MOA; 3 sub 1.0 MOA
Draw your own conclusions. I agree with @sirhrmechanic in sense past 100yd too much depends on ammo roulette. At 50yd and 100yd with good rifle and ammo, marksmanship shows.
50yd Average
15 sub 0.5 MOA; 55 sub 1.0 MOA
100yd Average
1 sub 0.5 MOA; 22 sub 1.0 MOA
200yd Average
Zero sub 0.5 MOA; 3 sub 1.0 MOA
Draw your own conclusions. I agree with @sirhrmechanic in sense past 100yd too much depends on ammo roulette. At 50yd and 100yd with good rifle and ammo, marksmanship shows.
that would be quite interesting were it not for one unfortunate fact.
For whatever reason, to anybody other than the most casual observer, a lot....perhaps the majority of groups posted, especially @50 yards, are not remotely accurate....not even close.
Should not a good test of anything be based upon some reasonable degree of accuracy?
Don’t believe me? Here is a very simple exercise, quite easy, requires no calipers, etc.
Let’s assume we go with the generally accepted metric that a 22rf bullet hole is .220”. Even give or take a couple thou.
Now, given that, two shots EXACTLY side by side on the target will measure CTC .220”. This is a given.
Go through the entire thread and look at the shear number of posted groups with groups at least like that, let alone groups with paper between the holes where some of these math marvels post .130”, .160”, or some other absolute impossible dimension?
then it follows that subsequent posts make foolish claims about group size reference, the inevitable “ my gun shoots all day in the .200’s “ bullshit.
Rarely do posts like mine show because they lead to ridiculous forum arguments, etc. and most of the software measuring stuff is notoriously bad at small groups and/or rimfire.
I suppose some guys are convinced they’re that good with some equipment.........they aren’t.
Now,admittadly, I have no skin in this particular game, have zero interest in a debate, but, jeez......facts are facts.
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If all five of the bullet holes are tangent to at least one other bullet hole but do not overlap, what is the maximum and minimum possible CTC distance? The largest is if the bullet holes are in a straight line, 4 x .220" = 0.880". The minimum is an interesting problem in plane Euclidean geometry. I believe the answer is 0.440", from the closest packing of equal size circles in the plane. Thus, if the 5 shot CTC distance is less than 0.440" some bullet holes must overlap. The minimum possible CTC distance if the five bullet holes can overlap is obviously zero. If one or more of the bullet holes neither overlap nor are tangent the maximum CTC is determined by the dimensions of the target/backing.
Perhaps it is a question of accuracy versus precision? The modern definition of accuracy, ISO 9000, as applied to shot holes, requires both the precision of the group and the offset of the group center from the aimpoint to be small. In that regard the CTC groups in the 6 x 5 Challenge are not accurate because the sights are deliberately offset. To determine accuracy would require a 30 x 1 Challenge, i.e. one shot per aimpoint. I think it fair to say the average accuracy of the 30 shots would be no better than the average CTC groups in the 6 x 5 Challenge. How much worse I do not know.
Perhaps it is a question of accuracy versus precision? The modern definition of accuracy, ISO 9000, as applied to shot holes, requires both the precision of the group and the offset of the group center from the aimpoint to be small. In that regard the CTC groups in the 6 x 5 Challenge are not accurate because the sights are deliberately offset. To determine accuracy would require a 30 x 1 Challenge, i.e. one shot per aimpoint. I think it fair to say the average accuracy of the 30 shots would be no better than the average CTC groups in the 6 x 5 Challenge. How much worse I do not know.
well, stated another way, which represents the single most common error, if there is a small five shot group, say, and only 2 of the shots have zero overlap whatsoever, then it is a mathematical impossibility for that group to be less than a single bullet diameter/ hole through paper.......can’t be.
That is truly stating the obvious. Almost as obvious there must be substantial overlap of all bullet holes for the CTC of the group to be less than a bullet diameter, which is what generates the CTC precisions less than 0.220" in the 6 x 5 Challenge.
Enough already stating the obvious.
Admittedly the question "Is there a real sub-MOA .22 rifle" is ill-posed because no distance is stated. I would say the data demonstrates rifle-ammo-shooter combos capable of sub-MOA exist for 50yd, 100yd and 200yd. No evidence exists for greater distance. Is it impossible for 300yd? Perhaps for rifles with no tuner and bipod-bag support. What about an unlimited class benchrest rifle with one-piece mechanical support and hand-picked ammunition on a calm day? Care to try?
Addendum: Forgot to say choose whatever wind flags you deem optimal and choose whatever interval you deem optimal. Has anyone ever run wind flags at a 1yd interval?
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I have shot a sub 0.5" group at 450 yards with my 223. Does that make it a 0.1 moa gun?
Yes and congrats on excellent marksmanship. A group exactly 0.5" at 450yd subtends 0.11 MOA.
Also why, when the spirit moves me to shoot at a 200yd target in addition to 50yd and 100yd , I take a 223 in addition to a 22LR.
I agree with that also. I did a short comparison, this data is from the accurate shooter rimfire test, shot with the Bleiker in year 2013 or so. Probably everybody here has viewed it at some point.
RT? You don't keep that one in y'er favorites?
Bad RT...no donut!
Bad RT...no donut!
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