Whoa playa!Uhhh... pretty sure that’s why she married you in the first place, big stud.
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Night Vision It’s coming...
- Thread starter TheHorta
- Start date
havent had time to mount it up, but my six year old and i fired her up tonight and played around in feont of the house in the burbs with her for about ten minutes just with the naked eye. on .8x just handheld it was really crisp. looking forward to getting it on a gun and looking through the dayscope to check it out. targeting to get out to the country next weekend to go afterhogs with it, look at things at distance. im not real technically proficient so it will take some work to learn the buttons and menus, but so far seems really cool.
Son just got his yesterday, bought from Will. This is his third thermal, his last was a Arma Right Apollo Pro 50 mm with 540 resolution. He said the Tig is definitely clearer than what he has seen in the video. He mounted in front of an IOR 3-18x. With high humidity he could get to 10x on the scope before it got blurry. This morning with less humidity he was up to 12x.. After knowing what he was looking at, the thought he could go to 18x on the day scope for more accuracy.
He really likes the digital magnification, said he gets a really clear picture at 6 to 10x on the scope and 2x digital on the thermal. The only down side he mentioned is to remember that at 2x digital your day scope adjustments are half their stated value.
He really likes the digital magnification, said he gets a really clear picture at 6 to 10x on the scope and 2x digital on the thermal. The only down side he mentioned is to remember that at 2x digital your day scope adjustments are half their stated value.
This is similar to my experience. These things are unreal value.
I will say, these things are built like German Panzer tanks; the housing quality is fantastic. The only down side is the lack of independent sharpness adjustment...thats all this unit is missing. Hopefully a firmware update will add that feature in the near future.
We have them available, ready to ship for those interested. Give us a call if you'd like to discuss their capabilities.
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well i am trying to mount up tigger for this weekend, and i found the low shim the mount comes with (36mm) is just a hair too high to mate up with my current combo. if yu are running a victor co rail on an AI, with a 5-20 US in a spuhr 1.35" mount, the display wording at the top of screen is out of FOV at 5x scope with 0.8 digital zoom. going to swap out to original AI handguard. maybe that will get me a little lower mount setup.
maybe someone knows more than me about m lock - i know very little. do m-lock rails come in different thicknesses? this one seems a tad thick, relative to the part that swivels. theres also no cant on the mlock so that could play a role, but i dont think thats the real issue here.
maybe someone knows more than me about m lock - i know very little. do m-lock rails come in different thicknesses? this one seems a tad thick, relative to the part that swivels. theres also no cant on the mlock so that could play a role, but i dont think thats the real issue here.
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ok. i buggered more with the the mlock but couldnt get it to work with the piece i have. i thought i might have another but after some digging its keymod or keyslot. not mlock. so i swapped over to oem for the time being and while its not a full fov with the 20 moa rail, it is useable. i can see enough of the top menu items to know where i am i think.
i'll look for a thinner mlock piece as i like the vic rail. also look back at era tac to see if there is a shim shorter than the 36mm.
sorry for the crappy thru the scope shot. just in the burbs closed in. will see what she can do this weekend. so far im impressed.
i'll look for a thinner mlock piece as i like the vic rail. also look back at era tac to see if there is a shim shorter than the 36mm.
sorry for the crappy thru the scope shot. just in the burbs closed in. will see what she can do this weekend. so far im impressed.
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alright last post for the night with my simpleton observations. once yu add the mount to your 6z you will note that the cutouts in the case dont allow for the combined unit to fit back in. easy fix though with any sharp knife as the lateral cut is already there. yu just have to make two 3/8 vertical cuts to pop out the piece.
then, a couple whiskeys in, i waslike well why the hell didnt they cut out a spot for my spare mount shims. took me a minute but the handles were the hint and if you lift out the top part of the foam it reveals a little chamber underneath where you can store a bunch of stuff.
next time i post it will be after evaluating in the field. i cant imagine my feedback being too much different from wig's over on his review thread.
then, a couple whiskeys in, i waslike well why the hell didnt they cut out a spot for my spare mount shims. took me a minute but the handles were the hint and if you lift out the top part of the foam it reveals a little chamber underneath where you can store a bunch of stuff.
next time i post it will be after evaluating in the field. i cant imagine my feedback being too much different from wig's over on his review thread.
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Nice pro tip,
also, you can pull the menus in closer to the center of the reticle allowing you to see Tig menus at higher magnification or with decent offset. There is about 3mm +/- of available display shift when collimating your zero ~ if you're scope and Tig aren't in perfect alignment, as long as they're close it'll work.
There is a screw driver that came with the eratac mount. There's a circular spot in the case it slides right into. You will want to keep this handy if you're switching it between setups since not all pic rail spaces are the same dimensionally - super broad standards I guess. This applies to all pic rails and pic rail mounts.
Your display brightness button also has a gain feature, and if it's a nice thermal night, you will want to be on either 2 or 3, and travel upwards with deteriorating weather.
You can disable any of the pallets, and you can also disable any of the magnification ranges. Figure out what works for you and tune out the noise
Preston
Yeah I complained about that about high end rifles etc and got universally shit on lol.
Why rifle/rail manufactures can’t maintain a spec is beyond me.
took tigIR out tonight for a little walk. mostly just played with moving through the menu etc. still need some practice / have some questions. but getting it doen. i am running an ultra short with a 5x low end mag. i can see why folks say it works real well with a 3x low end for a little more fov. i brought an elcan on an AR i will try outtomorrow. the view on these / capability of thermal is impressive. for hunting pigs and yotes at night not sure i'll pull out my pvs 30 for a while. find myself thinking a nox on the head would be great for scanning when walking.
thanks to preston on the fov shrink tip a couple posts back. i was able to get the menus moved more to the center of the fov.
thanks to preston on the fov shrink tip a couple posts back. i was able to get the menus moved more to the center of the fov.
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Some more pictures through the tig. Will be taking loads tomorrow and Sunday. Optic is an 1-8x24 ATACR, 2.5x optical mag and 0.8x digital zoom in the CR color pallet (setting 3 for brightness/gain). Images are not in focus completely since I was just using my phone (and shaking as well), but the true image is clearer than this. I have some great background ambient item over here to use to really show the capabilites of this little unit.
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You're welcome @bhanley. I'm a fan of the 5-20 US too.
Head mounted thermal is THE way to go. It's amazing how much more you see.
We are living in really good times with more options coming down the pipe.
As promised, feast your eyes. These images are a little closer to what you will see through the eye piece, but I'd say that I'm still losing about 10% of the image quality taking pictures through my phone. I will say, matching the height of the thermal properly to your day optic makes a notable difference in image clarity. The image seems to be more focused directly in the center of the OLED display, and slightly blurry around the edges.
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Got a ton of more pictures tonight; will photo dump on you guys later today when I have time.... but here's a little preview for the Hide.
Thermal conditions were PERFECT: 79 high, 20% humidity, and wind was 3 mph.
Color pallet being ran was typically CR and BCR (boost). Never thought that I would say this.... but the "CR" and "BCR" color pallet kick the shit out of black hot. Not only is the image smoother on those pallets, I find it's sharper as well compared to both of the black hot pallets.
The glass being ran is a NF ATACR on 3x optical and 0.8x digital (I like the 0.8x for photo purposes as it increases FOV, but the 1x digital doesn't change the image clarity.)
Thermal conditions were PERFECT: 79 high, 20% humidity, and wind was 3 mph.
Color pallet being ran was typically CR and BCR (boost). Never thought that I would say this.... but the "CR" and "BCR" color pallet kick the shit out of black hot. Not only is the image smoother on those pallets, I find it's sharper as well compared to both of the black hot pallets.
The glass being ran is a NF ATACR on 3x optical and 0.8x digital (I like the 0.8x for photo purposes as it increases FOV, but the 1x digital doesn't change the image clarity.)
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Got some more pictures for the Hide. The image looking at cows is about at 800 yards using the TA50 3x24 optic. The 2nd and 3rd are in front of the NF ATACR LPVO at about 3x optical and the horse is rough 50 and 75 yards respectively. 4th is looking at a target at 50 meters and a berm at 200 meters. And for the nerds, the 1st and 4th image are on a terrible thermal day (39⁰, 73% humidity, snow cover that is rapidly melting, wind roughly 10 mph, and the last 3 days have been a mix of snow and rain, with yesterday producing a snow fall of 4", plus today was severely cloud covered..... needless to say abysmal conditions without sunlight. However, notice the detail still shown given those data points).
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Hi guys, I'm AcpChuck's son. I've lurked on the Hide for years but haven't signed up until now.
I thought I'd add in my thoughts on the Tig and a comparison to the other two thermals I've owned.
My first thermal was a IR Defense IR Hunter MkII 19mm (pre Trijicon). It was great for coyotes out to 300 or so yards, but the reticles were useless for shooting much farther than that. The image was good enough during good thermal conditions to ID moving coyotes out to 800 yards at times. When calling coyotes in I noticed that they would often come in to around 400-430 yards and stop, often not coming any closer: probably my lacking skills with a call.
So the next step was to buy a KN203 Simrad. I would run the IRHunter on a suppressed AR with a SWR Radius to spot and range, and the Simrad on a suppressed 6.5 Creed bolt gun w/Razor 4.5-27 to zero in on the flashing ranging laser and shoot the coyote. This worked pretty well for coyotes out 439 yards (my farthest kill with it) even without an illuminator, but this method required 2 people to make it effective and the Simrad let me down on a couple occasions: the first was a coyote sitting on a round hay bail a little over 700. The thermal picked it up (got a PID while it was running to the bail), but the Simrad just didn't have the resolution to make out the coyote at that distance. The second time was a coyote a little over 400 yards on the other side of a creek and thin treeline. The thermal had no problem tracking the yote but the Simrad couldn't pick up the yote through the trees.
A little more than a year ago I came to a point where I needed to sell the IR Hunter, and when funds are available again I decided to try an clip on Apollo Pro 50mm thermal. I figured the IR Hunter was around 1.5x magnification, and the Apollo was 2x. My hope was that I would get similar performance to the Hunter however the core on the Apollo just seemed lacking.
Mounted on a first Gen RPR in front of an old FFP IOR 3-18 I was able, under good conditions, to PID coyotes out to *maybe* 250-300 yards. At 400 yards and farther even cattle just looked like large blobs no matter how I adjusted the focus. It also seemed to have trouble at times picking up small heat signatures farther out, and larger heat signatures within 100 yards completely washed out terrain details no matter what image settings I used.
On average nights I could get to around 6x optical magnification on the day scope, and under very good conditions maybe 8x, but what good does that do if you don't know what the hot blob is you're looking at?
That being said, return to zero on the Apollo worked well. It always good enough to let me smack aluminum foil wrapped steel dead center at 430 yards on multiple occasions regardless of how many times I removed and remounted the the Apollo.
Thanks to my lurking and the influence of Horta I decided to sell the Apollo and try out the Tig. First: Will's Optics was great to deal with, Carl took the time to speak with me on the phone for a considerable amount of time to answer my questions and kept me updated via texts while waiting for the Tig.
Now that I've typed up that novel, on to the Tig:
Unfortunately Andres drug their feet long enough that I missed our fairly narrow night time coyote season, so I haven't been able to take it out for a proper hunt yet, but I've taken it out a number of times to play with.
Standing cattle are easy to PID out as far as I've been able to view with it so far (around 1K? yards), and with good thermal conditions I've been able to PID smaller animals like Raccoons out past 400. I've also noticed that I can pick up small animals in thinned timber at around 500 yards, though it's not always possible to get a PID. The other two thermals usually wouldn't pick up anything other than cattle, and even they were sometimes hard to make out.
The Tig is much more tolerant of bad thermal conditions than either the IR Hunter or Apollo. While I haven't had the thermals side by side, I can say that the Tig still gives a lot of useful terrain detail in weather that would completely wash out any terrain detail in the other two sights.
I suspect that this is due to increased optical magnification along with the Boson core being sensitive to smaller differences in temperature (40MK vs 50mk+) than the other two sights. The Tig definitely picks up smaller heat sources farther out than either of the other two sights.
I've been out several times to target shoot with the Tig, and it's been every bit as solid as the Apollo on returning to zero, and unless my understanding of collimation is completely wrong it IS collimated, and an adjustable screen position and collimating lens are not mutually exclusive (please correct me if I'm wrong!). A dedicated thermal sight like the IR Hunter (despite the so called clip on mode) looks like holding a digital camera in front of your scope: small changes in the angle of the camera swing the image around wildly. Doing the same with a collimated optic gives completely different results: there's a video of the Pulsar Krypton on youtube that illustrates what it looks like:
You'll notice that as he moves the Krypton the crosshairs stay on the same object in the image.
I find that 8x-10x day scope magnification is very usable under pretty much any conditions, and 12x to 15 is pretty workable under good conditions, but as said by others the best image is found by using smaller amounts of day scope magnification in conjunction with digital mag. I find myself going back to 1x digital and increasing the day optic magnification to have accurate adjustments/holds to take the shot.
I still have the Simrad, but I doubt it'll get much use now that I have the Tig. I can get as much day scope magnification through the Tig as I can the Simrad, but it's much easier and faster to pick up meat filled targets.
As a side note: with a long enough rail, it is possible to mount the Tig in front of the Simrad in line with the day scope to create what I call "red neck fusion". Though it's not the most practical thing to do simply because of the weight involved, and I'm not sure that it really gains anything for image vs just using the Tig.
Sorry for such a long post, but I've found that useful information on thermal clip on sights can be hard to find, especially comparing them to other sights. I hope some of my rambling will be useful to someone.
I thought I'd add in my thoughts on the Tig and a comparison to the other two thermals I've owned.
My first thermal was a IR Defense IR Hunter MkII 19mm (pre Trijicon). It was great for coyotes out to 300 or so yards, but the reticles were useless for shooting much farther than that. The image was good enough during good thermal conditions to ID moving coyotes out to 800 yards at times. When calling coyotes in I noticed that they would often come in to around 400-430 yards and stop, often not coming any closer: probably my lacking skills with a call.
So the next step was to buy a KN203 Simrad. I would run the IRHunter on a suppressed AR with a SWR Radius to spot and range, and the Simrad on a suppressed 6.5 Creed bolt gun w/Razor 4.5-27 to zero in on the flashing ranging laser and shoot the coyote. This worked pretty well for coyotes out 439 yards (my farthest kill with it) even without an illuminator, but this method required 2 people to make it effective and the Simrad let me down on a couple occasions: the first was a coyote sitting on a round hay bail a little over 700. The thermal picked it up (got a PID while it was running to the bail), but the Simrad just didn't have the resolution to make out the coyote at that distance. The second time was a coyote a little over 400 yards on the other side of a creek and thin treeline. The thermal had no problem tracking the yote but the Simrad couldn't pick up the yote through the trees.
A little more than a year ago I came to a point where I needed to sell the IR Hunter, and when funds are available again I decided to try an clip on Apollo Pro 50mm thermal. I figured the IR Hunter was around 1.5x magnification, and the Apollo was 2x. My hope was that I would get similar performance to the Hunter however the core on the Apollo just seemed lacking.
Mounted on a first Gen RPR in front of an old FFP IOR 3-18 I was able, under good conditions, to PID coyotes out to *maybe* 250-300 yards. At 400 yards and farther even cattle just looked like large blobs no matter how I adjusted the focus. It also seemed to have trouble at times picking up small heat signatures farther out, and larger heat signatures within 100 yards completely washed out terrain details no matter what image settings I used.
On average nights I could get to around 6x optical magnification on the day scope, and under very good conditions maybe 8x, but what good does that do if you don't know what the hot blob is you're looking at?
That being said, return to zero on the Apollo worked well. It always good enough to let me smack aluminum foil wrapped steel dead center at 430 yards on multiple occasions regardless of how many times I removed and remounted the the Apollo.
Thanks to my lurking and the influence of Horta I decided to sell the Apollo and try out the Tig. First: Will's Optics was great to deal with, Carl took the time to speak with me on the phone for a considerable amount of time to answer my questions and kept me updated via texts while waiting for the Tig.
Now that I've typed up that novel, on to the Tig:
Unfortunately Andres drug their feet long enough that I missed our fairly narrow night time coyote season, so I haven't been able to take it out for a proper hunt yet, but I've taken it out a number of times to play with.
Standing cattle are easy to PID out as far as I've been able to view with it so far (around 1K? yards), and with good thermal conditions I've been able to PID smaller animals like Raccoons out past 400. I've also noticed that I can pick up small animals in thinned timber at around 500 yards, though it's not always possible to get a PID. The other two thermals usually wouldn't pick up anything other than cattle, and even they were sometimes hard to make out.
The Tig is much more tolerant of bad thermal conditions than either the IR Hunter or Apollo. While I haven't had the thermals side by side, I can say that the Tig still gives a lot of useful terrain detail in weather that would completely wash out any terrain detail in the other two sights.
I suspect that this is due to increased optical magnification along with the Boson core being sensitive to smaller differences in temperature (40MK vs 50mk+) than the other two sights. The Tig definitely picks up smaller heat sources farther out than either of the other two sights.
I've been out several times to target shoot with the Tig, and it's been every bit as solid as the Apollo on returning to zero, and unless my understanding of collimation is completely wrong it IS collimated, and an adjustable screen position and collimating lens are not mutually exclusive (please correct me if I'm wrong!). A dedicated thermal sight like the IR Hunter (despite the so called clip on mode) looks like holding a digital camera in front of your scope: small changes in the angle of the camera swing the image around wildly. Doing the same with a collimated optic gives completely different results: there's a video of the Pulsar Krypton on youtube that illustrates what it looks like:
You'll notice that as he moves the Krypton the crosshairs stay on the same object in the image.
I find that 8x-10x day scope magnification is very usable under pretty much any conditions, and 12x to 15 is pretty workable under good conditions, but as said by others the best image is found by using smaller amounts of day scope magnification in conjunction with digital mag. I find myself going back to 1x digital and increasing the day optic magnification to have accurate adjustments/holds to take the shot.
I still have the Simrad, but I doubt it'll get much use now that I have the Tig. I can get as much day scope magnification through the Tig as I can the Simrad, but it's much easier and faster to pick up meat filled targets.
As a side note: with a long enough rail, it is possible to mount the Tig in front of the Simrad in line with the day scope to create what I call "red neck fusion". Though it's not the most practical thing to do simply because of the weight involved, and I'm not sure that it really gains anything for image vs just using the Tig.
Sorry for such a long post, but I've found that useful information on thermal clip on sights can be hard to find, especially comparing them to other sights. I hope some of my rambling will be useful to someone.
Thanks for the update!
In regards to collimating...
It has been correctly theorized and then later tested/proven by a user that the return to zero capabilities of the Tig (like any clip on that lacks a prism) is entirely dependent on the RTZ ability of the mount.
With most good mounts we are talking approximately 1.5 MOA movement of POA across multiple dismount/remount cycles. This assumes a CLEAN rail and mount. If you crash through brush and stir up dirt, dust, and grit, you can’t expect that level of repeatability.
For coyotes and hogs this is probably acceptable to most shooters. If relying on a clip-on for social work, military contracts tell us that screen adjustment has never been considered acceptable for the above mentioned reasons.
In regards to collimating...
It has been correctly theorized and then later tested/proven by a user that the return to zero capabilities of the Tig (like any clip on that lacks a prism) is entirely dependent on the RTZ ability of the mount.
With most good mounts we are talking approximately 1.5 MOA movement of POA across multiple dismount/remount cycles. This assumes a CLEAN rail and mount. If you crash through brush and stir up dirt, dust, and grit, you can’t expect that level of repeatability.
For coyotes and hogs this is probably acceptable to most shooters. If relying on a clip-on for social work, military contracts tell us that screen adjustment has never been considered acceptable for the above mentioned reasons.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what a collimating prism is and does, these sights DO have the prism, they just aren't collimated on a table before shipping. After zeroing the Tig on my RPR, I found it was also zeroed on 2 different ARs with approximately the same amount of sight height over bore (similar experience with the Apollo BTW). The Tig is also not sensitive to rail flex like would be experienced mounting something like the IR Hunter in clip on mode in front of a scope.
Neither of these should be possible without a risley prism. Again, if I'm not understanding this correctly someone please enlighten me!
Neither of these should be possible without a risley prism. Again, if I'm not understanding this correctly someone please enlighten me!
I cannot speak to the specific architecture of the Tig. I I can tell you that when asked if they used a prism, they didn’t say “yes”, and I can tell you that user tests of the Tig have in some cases exhibited shift and in some cases not... just exactly like you’d expect from a device that relies on its Mount’s RTZ ability.
I'll admit I'm struggling with how to explain this...
When I tried the IR hunter in clip on mode (joke mode) in front of a LPVO, I could get 20-30 MOA worth of shift in the image just by putting pressure on the free float rail, roughly measuring the shift using the reticle in the scope.
This shift does not happen with the Tig or the Apollo.
20-30 MOA of rail shift is going to be more extreme than any shift experienced with a QD mount.
I'm not trying to say that some people aren't having trouble keeping their zero, but I'm not gentle with my epuipment (including the Tig) and I haven't noticed any shift. If you could handle both a dedicated sight like the IR Hunter, and a 'clip on' like either the Apollo or Tig, you would immediately notice the difference.
My theory is that the Tig and Apollo do have the prism, but the prism isn't aligned on a collimating table. To align the prism you would either have to make slight adjustments to prism and how parallel it is to the LCD screen, or you would have to adjust the LCD screen itself. On a thermal it's easy to adjust the screen, and much less complicated and less expensive than perfectly aligning the prism.
I'm currently visiting family out on the Left Coast, but if I can scrounge the ammo I may have to test the Tig by removing and reinstalling it between groups.
I like your screen name by the way, an AAC Evo9 was my first suppressor.
When I tried the IR hunter in clip on mode (joke mode) in front of a LPVO, I could get 20-30 MOA worth of shift in the image just by putting pressure on the free float rail, roughly measuring the shift using the reticle in the scope.
This shift does not happen with the Tig or the Apollo.
20-30 MOA of rail shift is going to be more extreme than any shift experienced with a QD mount.
I'm not trying to say that some people aren't having trouble keeping their zero, but I'm not gentle with my epuipment (including the Tig) and I haven't noticed any shift. If you could handle both a dedicated sight like the IR Hunter, and a 'clip on' like either the Apollo or Tig, you would immediately notice the difference.
My theory is that the Tig and Apollo do have the prism, but the prism isn't aligned on a collimating table. To align the prism you would either have to make slight adjustments to prism and how parallel it is to the LCD screen, or you would have to adjust the LCD screen itself. On a thermal it's easy to adjust the screen, and much less complicated and less expensive than perfectly aligning the prism.
I'm currently visiting family out on the Left Coast, but if I can scrounge the ammo I may have to test the Tig by removing and reinstalling it between groups.
I like your screen name by the way, an AAC Evo9 was my first suppressor.
My first too 
I have owned several thermals including 3 clip ons and 3 stand alone, so I’m familiar with what you’re saying.
If you end up testing the concept, the best way to test any concept is to introduce extremes.
Instead of just removing and reinstalling between groups which simulates best case clean surfaces type scenarios...
Fold a small piece of aluminum foil a couple times (now 4 sheets thick.) place it against the left or right edge of the picatinny rail towards the very front or back of the mount. You’ve now simulated a very likely real world situation. If POI remains unchanged after a couple tests like this, there’s definitely something (good) going on.
I have owned several thermals including 3 clip ons and 3 stand alone, so I’m familiar with what you’re saying.
If you end up testing the concept, the best way to test any concept is to introduce extremes.
Instead of just removing and reinstalling between groups which simulates best case clean surfaces type scenarios...
Fold a small piece of aluminum foil a couple times (now 4 sheets thick.) place it against the left or right edge of the picatinny rail towards the very front or back of the mount. You’ve now simulated a very likely real world situation. If POI remains unchanged after a couple tests like this, there’s definitely something (good) going on.
I'll give that a try.
For what it's worth there seems to be a difference in what offset the prisms can handle too.
The Samson Evolution keymod rail that came on the RPR is noticeably offset from the barrel (not parallel). I did notice a POI shift with the Apollo when moving it from RPR to different ARs. Once it was zeroed for the RPR it would be predictably off 2 MOA down and left @100 yards on both ARs.
The Tig seems to handle the difference much better, and can be swapped between the RPR and the ARs without noticeable changes to POI.
For what it's worth there seems to be a difference in what offset the prisms can handle too.
The Samson Evolution keymod rail that came on the RPR is noticeably offset from the barrel (not parallel). I did notice a POI shift with the Apollo when moving it from RPR to different ARs. Once it was zeroed for the RPR it would be predictably off 2 MOA down and left @100 yards on both ARs.
The Tig seems to handle the difference much better, and can be swapped between the RPR and the ARs without noticeable changes to POI.
I have not noticed any measurable shift when mounting and remounting and testing for POA and POI. Like with any clipon, mount it on pic slot and push it forward in that slot. Do this every time, just like you would with your scope rings.
On another topic, prism or not, if a mount doesn’t lock up at the same pic rail slot or with the same clamping pressure, you will introduce shift. Some clipons have more flexibility than others, but if we’re calling on extreme scenarios where debris get inbetween mount and surface, it has the ability to introduce shift.
Never the less, I haven’t seen any shift with the Tig, debris or not, so I’m inclined to say there is potential user error and if you point them my way, I’d be happy to talk them through my process.
ETA, its my opinion that more people get shift from incorrectly set parallax than any other factor.
On another topic, prism or not, if a mount doesn’t lock up at the same pic rail slot or with the same clamping pressure, you will introduce shift. Some clipons have more flexibility than others, but if we’re calling on extreme scenarios where debris get inbetween mount and surface, it has the ability to introduce shift.
Never the less, I haven’t seen any shift with the Tig, debris or not, so I’m inclined to say there is potential user error and if you point them my way, I’d be happy to talk them through my process.
ETA, its my opinion that more people get shift from incorrectly set parallax than any other factor.
I won’t mention names but the person that tested this isn’t someone you’d want to accuse of improper mounting/settings.
If it were as simple as “zero it once and it’s good for all weapons” they’d do that for you on their own AR at the factory... it’s a $10,000 optic, come on.
Also, if it were that simple, they wouldn’t have built in the multiple save points for colimation to different weapons. This is something they advertise as a feature so that it can be used on multiple weapons.
Some people may get lucky with a few weapons but the factory wasn’t counting on it, so neither should you.
If it were as simple as “zero it once and it’s good for all weapons” they’d do that for you on their own AR at the factory... it’s a $10,000 optic, come on.
Also, if it were that simple, they wouldn’t have built in the multiple save points for colimation to different weapons. This is something they advertise as a feature so that it can be used on multiple weapons.
Some people may get lucky with a few weapons but the factory wasn’t counting on it, so neither should you.
Wait, who is saying you zero it once and it’s good for all? It’s clearly marketed to be collimated for each gun. I haven’t run across any literature saying otherwise. Please point me to your materials.
No ones calling anybody out here. This is a forum of sharing experience and it seems a little disingenuous to state someone is having issues as second hand information. It’s as easy as posting it up for all of us to learn from, including those that have no remount zero issue or those that do.
To be clear on my stance, we have several customers who had them in hand for some time. The issue for RTZ mount has never been mentioned except by you.
If you’re saying there is a RTZ problem for someone who collimates on Gun A and thinks that it will line up on Gun B, then I would agree unless that person was lucky. Doubtful that it’s the case.
If you’re saying there is a RTZ problem for someone who collimates on Gun A and thinks that it will line up on Gun B, then I would agree unless that person was lucky. Doubtful that it’s the case.
Once I zeroed it on my RPR, it didn't need any further adjustment for either of the ARs I used it on.
Obviously this does NOT include digital magnification, as the Tig does not know where to center it's digital zoom (needs to be at the center of your reticle). The manual for the Tig also references that it may not need adjustment, at least when using a rusan adapter.
I can't speak for any one else, so maybe Evolution could invite his acquaintance to this thread to tell us of his/her expirience?
Obviously this does NOT include digital magnification, as the Tig does not know where to center it's digital zoom (needs to be at the center of your reticle). The manual for the Tig also references that it may not need adjustment, at least when using a rusan adapter.
I can't speak for any one else, so maybe Evolution could invite his acquaintance to this thread to tell us of his/her expirience?
I agree with you that we shouldn’t expect gun A to gun B swaps to be free from error. Some have been lucky and had it work.
Im also not saying there’s a huge error when unmounting and remounting on the same gun. There IS some.
Just as some people with day scopes on RTZ mounts don’t experience shift when removing and replacing their day optic, and some do, you’ll see the same thing with the Tig and other “center the screen” type clip-ons.
With day optics, there are two reasons that some have RTZ issues and some don’t, and both reasons will apply to your customers with the Tig as well.
1. Some mount/rail combos just seem to produce more consistent results.
2. Many shooters/guns/Ammo aren’t capable of the level of repeatability necessary to determine if there’s a small amount of shift or not.
To your other point, There’s nothing disingenuous about providing second hand information. With so few of these sights out there, 90% of the information in existence IS second hand at best.
If you think I’m making it up, you’ll still think I’m making it up after I give you the name of the guy who tested it, and he’ll have been dragged into something he didn’t ask for without reason.
Im also not saying there’s a huge error when unmounting and remounting on the same gun. There IS some.
Just as some people with day scopes on RTZ mounts don’t experience shift when removing and replacing their day optic, and some do, you’ll see the same thing with the Tig and other “center the screen” type clip-ons.
With day optics, there are two reasons that some have RTZ issues and some don’t, and both reasons will apply to your customers with the Tig as well.
1. Some mount/rail combos just seem to produce more consistent results.
2. Many shooters/guns/Ammo aren’t capable of the level of repeatability necessary to determine if there’s a small amount of shift or not.
To your other point, There’s nothing disingenuous about providing second hand information. With so few of these sights out there, 90% of the information in existence IS second hand at best.
If you think I’m making it up, you’ll still think I’m making it up after I give you the name of the guy who tested it, and he’ll have been dragged into something he didn’t ask for without reason.
How is it believable if it’s not substantiated? If you make a claim, support it. No ones saying you’re wrong by proving yourself right. My sample size of customers with first hand experience, irrespective of my own experience, have never brought this issue to my attention. Not have I heard a single other credible source with first hand experience suggest what you’re suggesting.
And to be extra clear, we’re talking RTZ of a collimated optic on a single system. The EraTac has threadlocker in the mount to insure the same exact tension every time it’s mounted. Unless this user is mounting it in a different spot within the pic rail (forward or backwards in the same slot), I don’t see how you’re getting measurable shift.
I would chalk .1mil of shift up to a users parallax alone as a possibility that’s highly probably. if there’s shift at all, it could also be a limitation of pixel count available at magnification. I’m helping you try to make your point. Tell us what the problem is, how it was confirmed, how we know it’s not the settings of the optic, parallax or Tig, basically anything you can think of.
I genuinely do not think you can definitively point to a single reason for shift to conclusively say it’s the mounts RTZ’s fault.
Do you know how many day optic RTZ mounts claim perfect return to zero and how many have been proven not to return to zero?
What makes you think this particular mount is different?
If any debris gets in the rail or mount of a day optic RTZ mount we all know it will mess up the zero.
What makes you think this RTZ mount will be any different?
A PVS30 wouldn’t care, and therein lies the advantage of true prism colimation.
Please understand me:
Im really excited about the Tig and may get one. I think it brings things to the table others don’t. I’m also a fan of your particular company for at least a couple of reasons.
We’ve been rounds before about the Tig, regarding day scope click adjustments/holding while under digital magnification. After a lot of back and forth, your own business partner tested the theory and demonstrated that I had been correct all along, without ever putting hands on a Tig myself.
That’s going to have to be enough credibility to trust that I’m not talking out of my ass this time either.
Again, for most users, the small potential for error is probably a non-issue and I think the Tig is an absolutely kick ass thermal.
What makes you think this particular mount is different?
If any debris gets in the rail or mount of a day optic RTZ mount we all know it will mess up the zero.
What makes you think this RTZ mount will be any different?
A PVS30 wouldn’t care, and therein lies the advantage of true prism colimation.
Please understand me:
Im really excited about the Tig and may get one. I think it brings things to the table others don’t. I’m also a fan of your particular company for at least a couple of reasons.
We’ve been rounds before about the Tig, regarding day scope click adjustments/holding while under digital magnification. After a lot of back and forth, your own business partner tested the theory and demonstrated that I had been correct all along, without ever putting hands on a Tig myself.
That’s going to have to be enough credibility to trust that I’m not talking out of my ass this time either.
Again, for most users, the small potential for error is probably a non-issue and I think the Tig is an absolutely kick ass thermal.
The 30 is flexible and can absorb a ton of offset, but by the same token, a 2124LR cannot absorb as much before we can measure shift, yet they are both prism collimated.
I think we're splitting hairs here, but I sincerely welcome any and all discussion positive and negative. I like to learn just like the next guy, and even though we do a lot of teaching, we still get educated from time-to-time! I will happily put my ego aside and admit when wrong.
Happy to take this voice if you like. Its hard typing with a new born in one hand and a computer in the other, lol.
I think we're splitting hairs here, but I sincerely welcome any and all discussion positive and negative. I like to learn just like the next guy, and even though we do a lot of teaching, we still get educated from time-to-time! I will happily put my ego aside and admit when wrong.
Happy to take this voice if you like. Its hard typing with a new born in one hand and a computer in the other, lol.
I have a 2 and 4 year old “helping” me build a porch cover... totally understand. Best experience ever.
Had one of the first units in the country and have used it across several different platforms. After collimating for those platforms/optics, I shot a group, removed the thermal and shot another group, and there was no noticeable zero shift..... as in absolutely no shift what so ever; not a single millimeter.
You can’t determine shift that small with a total of two groups with a DAY SCOPE. None the less with a thermal involved. That’s truly ridiculous.
Even if you could (you can’t), nobody is denying the possibility of an exact return to zero SOME of the time. Try it 20 times. Try it under real world conditions which (for many people) include dust, grit, lint, etc. getting in the works.
Even if you could (you can’t), nobody is denying the possibility of an exact return to zero SOME of the time. Try it 20 times. Try it under real world conditions which (for many people) include dust, grit, lint, etc. getting in the works.
FWIW, I totally agree with that ! The tig has ERATAC mounts, maybe those are good !!??
When I first mounted the Tig on rifle #1 it was a foot left and a foot low. Adjusting the manual collimation, got me to the center of my aiming point after about 4 rds. If the Tig was prism collimated, would it not have been dead on for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots ?? As real clipons like the UTC and LWTS-LR and PVS-30 and PVS27 are ?
When I first mounted the Tig on rifle #2 it was way off as well. Adjusting the manual collimation got me to the center of the aiming point. This indicated experience with rifle #1 was not an anomaly.
I guess ZEE ROW
It only takes one counter-example to prove the negatif case. It requires exactly an infinite number to prove (absolutely) the positive case. ==
I have tested three UTCs side by side (UTC-xii, UTC-x, UTC-320)
Before each 3 rd group, (six total groups in this test) we remounted the UTC in question. The targets were 3 hand warmers. We shot two 3 rd groups with each thermal, and again a remount before each group.
==
UTC-320
==
UTC-x
==
UTC-xii
Anyone want to hazzard a guess as to what shot group analysis indicated caused the apparent POI shift for the UTC-x and UTC-xii ??
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I tested the LWTS-LR after remounts ... the upper 3 rd group was 7/16" the right hand 3 rd group was 9/16" ... after a remount
Any guess on this example ?
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Tested SNIPE repeatability - 6 x 3rd groups, 6 remounts 3 handwarmers
First 3
Second 3
Avg POI shift after remount 0.625" which I found acceptable.
==
In each case, there were factors causing issues. I'll wait a few minutes for comments and then share my analysis.
==
For the Tig, when I shot the rabbit off the tripod at 350yds, that was after an immediate remount and I did not "confirm" POI=POA. But the hit confirmed (to me) that POI was sufficiently close to POA to produce desired result. And that's what I'm after. First rd hits in the field, day/night, hot/cold, rain/shine, etc.
Night Vision - SOK's TigIR Z6+ Initial Review + Video
Ok, here’s my explanation... That actually makes sense to me. As I have mentioned, Jay has a cool trick for this, but it is his baby, so he should share it.
www.snipershide.com
Again, when trying the IR Hunter as a clip on, I found as much as 30 MOA worth of shift due to rail flex, depending on how hard I loaded the bipod. This was on an old magnesium Bravo KMR.
This shift is not present on either the Tig or the Apollo Pro.
This shift is also potentially orders of magnitude larger than what you would get from a decent QD mount.
Without a prism, how do you overcome this?
This shift is not present on either the Tig or the Apollo Pro.
This shift is also potentially orders of magnitude larger than what you would get from a decent QD mount.
Without a prism, how do you overcome this?
