Ladder Test, real or Imagined

#51
Skookum said:
Whether doing an Audette ladder or an OCW, I never figured out why people start so low. They test the whole range bottom to top. For myself, I know I want the fastest load that will keep me out of trouble in the summer heat. I couldn't give a rat's ass if a load groups if it is 100 fps slower than max. Similarly, I don't give a fuck if it groups when I'm getting hard bolt lift at 40* F.

Once I find what max charge is for my combo, I index off of that and back off the prescribed amount to not lock bolts when it is 100 degrees. That means there is about a .5 grain window I am willing to work with. If nothing presents itself in that window, I look for another powder or bullet.
Click to expand...

i do the same thing pretty much...ill start a little below book max and work up until i hit hard pressure usually 10-12 rounds and that gives me a starting point for my load development test...i then load up 4 rounds each in that area and shoot 3 round groups(the 4th is so i have an extra if i pull one if not i fire it at the end and see if it stays in the group)looking for a group in the middle of 3 good groups.

i know 3 shot groups dont matter but the thing is im not a group shooter so i rarely shoot 5 shot groups...EVERYTIME another round goes in the same hole past 3 i get like a fat kid in a candy store and #4 and or 5 goes out anyway LOL.
 
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#52
47Guy
The problem here is the shooter and gear is not capable. Culpeper just posted he can't duplicate his results which shows his equipment or skills are not up to the task at hand.
With your equipment and skill level this is a 10-15 minute operation at best but most here don't understand what they are looking for so they over complicate it and get it wrong.
How hard is it to seat all your rounds to one length fire ten shots and see were the least amount of Vertical takes place?
Nodes have width based on case volume and they don't understand that.
I do a ladder test to find my node and move on.
Powder charge then seating depth it isn't that hard.
It takes less time to do things correctly than it does to argue about on the internet but some posters seem to have alot of spare time.
 

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#53
Lynn Jr said:
47Guy
The problem here is the shooter and gear is not capable. Culpeper just posted he can't duplicate his results which shows his equipment or skills are not up to the task at hand.
With your equipment and skill level this is a 10-15 minute operation at best but most here don't understand what they are looking for so they over complicate it and get it wrong.
How hard is it to seat all your rounds to one length fire ten shots and see were the least amount of Vertical takes place?
Nodes have width based on case volume and they don't understand that.
I do a ladder test to find my node and move on.
Powder charge then seating depth it isn't that hard.
It takes less time to do things correctly than it does to argue about on the internet but some posters seem to have alot of spare time.
Click to expand...

i know that ladders work but they are also beyond me....ive never had good results running ladders but i know that im the problem not my equipment...i run a bastardized version of this and have been for several years... http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev ...it is extremely effect and very simple for me and it shows me everything i need to see...i normally have a load in 34 rounds.

if im running a new cartridge or change barrels i will shoot a ladder but the ladder is not for load development its for 2 things...1 to see where my pressure limits are so i have an idea of where to start with load development and 2 for break in.
 
#54
Lynn Jr said:
47Guy
The problem here is the shooter and gear is not capable. Culpeper just posted he can't duplicate his results which shows his equipment or skills are not up to the task at hand.
With your equipment and skill level this is a 10-15 minute operation at best but most here don't understand what they are looking for so they over complicate it and get it wrong.
How hard is it to seat all your rounds to one length fire ten shots and see were the least amount of Vertical takes place?
Nodes have width based on case volume and they don't understand that.
I do a ladder test to find my node and move on.
Powder charge then seating depth it isn't that hard.
It takes less time to do things correctly than it does to argue about on the internet but some posters seem to have alot of spare time.
Click to expand...
There is so much faggotry here. Gotta love it when benchresters show up to set all us Knuckle draggers straight! :ROFLMAO:
 
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#57
Milo 2.5 said:
You have something against that "Pop me in the kiester" red gun?
Click to expand...
I frequent Accurateshooter & Longrangehunting as well, so I am well aquainted with the way tactical shooters, longrange hunters, and benchresters think.

The funny thing about most of them is that none of them realize how specialized some of thier practices and considerations are to thier particular discipline...and you sure as fuck can't tell them different!
 
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#59
Skookum said:
I frequent Accurateshooter & Longrangehunting as well, so I am well aquainted with the way tactical shooters, longrange hunters, and benchresters think.

The funny thing about most of them is that none of them realize how specialized some of thier practices and considerations are to thier particular discipline...and you sure as fuck can't tell them different!
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!!!!
 
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#60
I no longer shoot Benchrest I hunt and I run 2000 yard matches.
My hunting rifles shoot better than 99 and 44/100 of the group's I see posted on this website and it takes no time at all to do things correctly.
The key is most here don't know what is important and they don't want to find out for themselves by doing the work.
I think it's called "being a millennial"
And none of this is "specialised" anybody can do it.
 
#61
Lynn Jr said:
I no longer shoot Benchrest I hunt and I run 2000 yard matches.
Click to expand...
The mindset hasn't changed.
Lynn Jr said:
My hunting rifles shoot better than 99 and 44/100 of the group's I see posted on this website and it takes no time at all to do things correctly.
Click to expand...
You want a cookie?
Lynn Jr said:
The key is most here don't know what is important and they don't want to find out for themselves by doing the work. I think it's called "being a millennial"
Click to expand...
I'm almost 50 and I have been doing this since 1999.
Lynn Jr said:
And none of this is "specialised" anybody can do it.
Click to expand...
You really think that a noob with a factory 20" 6.5 Creed and a Harris bipod, is gonna get the same results as a guy with a 30" tight chambered Bench or F-class rifle, firing at a single distance, from a concrete bench and a mechanical rest?
 
#62
I don't think you are capable of doing a Ladder Test so you post a lot of nonsense.
The OP wants answers you are unable to respond to but for some reason you feel the need to waste your time and those viewing looking for the same answers.
I don't know what your motivation is.
Just because you can't doesn't mean others here cant.
And the rifle doesn't know who or how it's being shot.
 
#63
Lynn Jr said:
I don't think you are capable of doing a Ladder Test so you post a lot of nonsense.
The OP wants answers you are unable to respond to but for some reason you feel the need to waste your time and those viewing looking for the same answers.
I don't know what your motivation is.
Just because you can't doesn't mean others here cant.
And the rifle doesn't know who or how it's being shot.
Click to expand...
It boils down to a one shot ladder test is as worthless as a 1 shot velocity ladder test. If you are going to gather some data, gather meaningful data.
Not matter how you do your load dev, if the load does not hold vertical at distance, it is worthless.
It becomes like spotting for someone shooting a factory rifle with shit factory ammo, you have no idea how to call because you cannot anticipate where the next shot will actually land.
Quit acting like you are some pioneer in this game.
 
#64
Another expert.
The problem with you milo 2.5 is like Skookum you don't know how so it must be impossible. Instead of Replying you both should be reading and asking questions.
And anybody who is capable of getting on this website can type Audette into a Google search and see nothing has changed in 80 years.
It was developed to be fast and easy and a few here are trying very hard to complicate it.
 
#65
Lynn Jr said:
Another expert.
The problem with you milo 2.5 is like Skookum you don't know how so it must be impossible. Instead of Replying you both should be reading and asking questions.
And anybody who is capable of getting on this website can type Audette into a Google search and see nothing has changed in 80 years.
It was developed to be fast and easy and a few here are trying very hard to complicate it.
Click to expand...
Oh piss off
 
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#70
So from all the fuckery here, when you guys are getting good results from this ladder test I am gathering that the shooter isnt exactly on the rifle? You use lead sleds or something of that nature to hold the gun still? Basically removing the shooter completely.
 
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#71
Lynn Jr said:
And there we have it.
Click to expand...
What do we actually have here? That I am tired of you running your cockwasher? I'm the 3rd person in this post you have called clueless. Either state your winning load development start to finish if you are here to teach as you babble, or shut up.
What was your 3 drunken unanswered posts in 15 min last night about?
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and I doubt anyone on here really gives 2 shits what you or I have to say about it.
 
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#72
@Lynn Jr

To put it succintly, any load developement process that relies on single shots, by definition, lacks statistical significance. I have the same issue with the Satterlee method.

The Audette method was developed to gauge impacts at a single distance. It tells a practical shooter nothing about how his loads will perform at mid-range or especially at distances farther than the tested distance, because positive compensation can cause rounds with disparate velocities to converge and group together at that single distance. This is exactly what benchrest and F-class are looking for, not the practical shooter who needs to know his round will perform adequately from 50 yards to 1200 yards.

A ladder is only valid for a single seating depth. You change the seating depth and you need to run another ladder. By the time you have run 2 or 3 ladders, it isn't so efficient anymore.

The rifle used to run an Audette ladder needs to be at least a 1/2 moa gun and a 1/2 moa shooter, or the resulting overlap in mean circular error can give false readings, which again requires more ladders.

The best tool for the practical shooter to do load developement is the OCW method, even then, getting new shooters to understand it and read it correctly is a challenge. The Audette ladder has validity in F-class and benchrest and that is where it needs to stay.
 
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#73
For BR-- I see the need to go a bit further out if all your groups are one hole at 100 and you looking 1/10 of a minute improvement; especially if your competing at those greater distances as your primary range.

So, for positional, if the gun is shooting lets say 1/4 to 3/8 or capable of it at 100 and simultaneously run over a chrono that proves low ES/SD’s good for the longer ranges; what is the issue with just settling there if your not a benchrest guy? Our main issues are the speed, DOF to wind and our wobble. Our targets are otherwise large..

That said, I do see a lot of targets that seem to indicate much more shooter than the load alone, even a bad one should procduce.

Edited to add: @47guy I was up in sparks but they canceled your match this weekend.
 
#74
Just so some of the other newer readers that may not be as well versed have some basis for the discussion going on in regards to this thread:



The barrel vibrates when fired. Mapped on one of its axis it looks like this. This is typically what we are going to envision with a ladder test. A simple sine wave. This is what the ladder test is really trying to display.
1551131033673.png


That said a barrel vibrates in many ways. Each with their own sine wave pattern, so suffice it to say that and modeling we are trying to accomplish through these tests is really just a best guess.
1551131089896.png






I cant get the gifs to embed here but this link visualizes all the different ways the barrel can vibrate, worth a click to see the animations https://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

As you can tell from those animations trying to model this would be extremely intricate (a pain in the ass) but is what Optimal Barrel Time is basically trying to accomplish http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm


This is probably more indicative of what the vibration sine waves would look like when all graphed together lol
1551132458476.png






So that brings us to the Ladders fundamental principle: Positive Compensation- basically we are looking at the initial single axis sine wave graphic I posted first and ignoring the others for general discussion. The fast bullets are coming out early in the cycle so they exit the barrel at a lower point of its vibration and the slower bullets take longer so they are in the barrel long enough to catch the highest point of the vibration.
1551130898865.png

1551131447249.png


So with a ladder test we are only really concerned about the vertical displacement at distance, in this example the 29.8 is slower and is released at a higher spot in the barrels vibration, the 30.4 is fast and is released at a lower spot in its vibration.
1551131493731.png


Ladders ignore left-right windage and rely on distance to minimize the shooters error and for velocity to be the main driver at comparing how the bullets shoot.






What about the other axis of vibration though? Thats where an OCW test comes in. It looks at not only vertical but also horizontal, and since we are focusing on the actual complete impacts 100 yards is the standard distance as its not really far enough for environmentals to play a big part yet still far enough to judge the rifles accuracy, everything will look good at 50 yards. It looks at not only vertical but horizontal as well. You look for where the groups impact compared to one another and try to find a stable spot where neighboring charge weights have similar points of impact.
1551131893138.png


If we were to take each of those individual targets, lay them over top of one another, and compare we would want to find a series of targets that have their impact centers close to their neighboring group so that it would look something like this hopefully.
1551131950964.png
 
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#75
Milo 2.5 and Skookum
You are so out of touch with what a ladder test is/does that I am wondering why you two are even posting here?
You want to ask about seating depth and single distance loading?
Please do a Google search and some reading before you post as your not even on the same page or wavelength.
And if you guys go to the website above Varmint Al in his tuner thread he ran the numbers on my world record setting gun under the title Lynn's record setting gun.
All I can say is Wow.
 
#78
Skookum said:
I'm tapping out.
Click to expand...

Don't tap out just read the posts and ask questions.

47Guy
As nodes have width you may very well be in a node and just not know it.
All a Ladder Test does is put you inside the node.
Once you are there you can figure out if your near the bottom middle or top.
The Benchrest crowd tend to error on the high side of a node.
The F-Class guys tend to center it up or shoot the lower side because of the amount of ammo they will be shooting.
The node on a small case like the 223 6BR runs 0.4 grains wide.
A case like the 300 Weatherby will be 1.5+ grains wide and the 50 BMG will exceed 12+ grains.
 
#80
Was wondering if I get a little help here what would you guys pick out a, I'm looking at 84.0 very good starting point am I on the right track
 

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#83
Why does he need to show a target. He has a forgivable flat area. He just needs seating depth for accuracy. This is exactly where it doesn't need to be so complicated.
 
#85
spife7980 said:
I bet you a hundred gazillion dollars that it doesn’t do it again.
Click to expand...

The problem I see with these chronograph tests is they don't allow for the velocity spreads that we are trying to reduce in our reloading. As you are suggesting, do this again and see what the results are.
 
#86
I've never had a problem. In fact, he can pick any velocity and find the best seating depth. If there are match factory loads he can just go with that velocity. That velocity was chosen by the manufacturers for a reason.

Custer trying to find the end of the village until it is too late, lol.

Look, I don't care what method people use. I'm just impressed it is a .300 Norma and not some pea shooter with a brake.
 
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#88
Lynn Jr said:
Don't tap out just read the posts and ask questions.

47Guy
As nodes have width you may very well be in a node and just not know it.
All a Ladder Test does is put you inside the node.
Once you are there you can figure out if your near the bottom middle or top.
The Benchrest crowd tend to error on the high side of a node.
The F-Class guys tend to center it up or shoot the lower side because of the amount of ammo they will be shooting.
The node on a small case like the 223 6BR runs 0.4 grains wide.
A case like the 300 Weatherby will be 1.5+ grains wide and the 50 BMG will exceed 12+ grains.
Click to expand...

I’ve shot several ladders over the years and have never had one go in my favor and I’ll be the first to admit it’s most likely me.

I do have an F-class buddy that has all the high end rest and bag that I might borrow and shoot a ladder after I find a good load my way just to see if they line up.
 
#89
We want to see the flat spot on the target were the bullets hit not errors in the chronograph or his shooting style that show up as velocity errors.

The chronograph doesn't need to come out yet.

You guys need to do this as scientifically as possible which means changing one variable at a time and that is the powder charge.
 
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#90
Diver160651 said:
For BR-- I see the need to go a bit further out if all your groups are one hole at 100 and you looking 1/10 of a minute improvement; especially if your competing at those greater distances as your primary range.

So, for positional, if the gun is shooting lets say 1/4 to 3/8 or capable of it at 100 and simultaneously run over a chrono that proves low ES/SD’s good for the longer ranges; what is the issue with just settling there if your not a benchrest guy? Our main issues are the speed, DOF to wind and our wobble. Our targets are otherwise large..

That said, I do see a lot of targets that seem to indicate much more shooter than the load alone, even a bad one should procduce.

Edited to add: @47guy I was up in sparks but they canceled your match this weekend.
Click to expand...

Yeah our range is pretty tore up right now with all the weather we’ve had...I drove by last Friday and most everything has standing water.

If your ever in Reno and want to shoot hit me up...I can set up to 1920yds and pretty much everything in between...I’ve got more steel than most ranges and several props.
 
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#91
47guy said:
I’ve shot several ladders over the years and have never had one go in my favor and I’ll be the first to admit it’s most likely me.

I do have an F-class buddy that has all the high end rest and bag that I might borrow and shoot a ladder after I find a good load my way just to see if they line up.
Click to expand...

Have Bob Hoppe give you a hand and let us know when you get to 2000 yards without snow. We need to hold a qualifying match for our upcoming 3K Match and have 600,000 acres closed due to the fires.
 
#96
Having tried a few different load development methods with the same rifle/bullet/powder combinations, I noticed a reoccurring theme/pattern. My OCW/OBT nodes NEVER matched up with my ladder test nodes. They were predictably a bit “out-of-phase” from each other.

This didn’t make sense until I started reading about ‘positive conpensation’ and the lights really came on after having a conversation with Alex Wheeler. I definitely think that positive compensation is applicable to precision rifle shooting. Yeah, F-Class & 600/1000 yard benchrest shooters can more finely tune their positive compensation for a specific distance, but you can still have positive conpensation working to your benefit across a range of distances, albeit optimized at a particular yardage (I like 500 - 600 yards for the matches I attend)... As opposed to finding/using a ‘node’ with negative compensation tendencies, which could easily happen with the OCW/OBT method.

So as I see it, ladder tests identify positive compensation and OCW identifies areas in the barrel timing where the effects of the oscillation/harmonics are minimal. Two different things.

Maybe oversimplified, but just observing the vertical component of an OCW test usually results in a sine-wave pattern that moves up-and-down relative to the aim-point with the ‘nodes’ usually ending up near the upper and lower extremes (the ‘flat-ish’ spots where the sine-wave direction changes). The ladder nodes nearly always end up at a powder charge where the POI is moving up relative to the POA. Sometimes near a ‘scatter node’ per the OCW method, more often closer to the ‘upper-inflection-point’ of the sine-curve, near-to, but off (behind/below in charge weight) of the corresponding OCW node.

Anyway, that’s just my observation and understanding after putting a lot of time and effort into finding what works for me. Probably should have just listened to Alex Wheeler when he told me it would be best to keep this (positive compensation ideas) to myself with regards to the PRS crowd and I’d have a little ‘leg-up’ verses the masses chasing their tails working up loads based on chronograph results ??? <— Paraphrasing BTW ?
 
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#99
Yellowfever440 said:
So from all the fuckery here, when you guys are getting good results from this ladder test I am gathering that the shooter isnt exactly on the rifle? You use lead sleds or something of that nature to hold the gun still? Basically removing the shooter completely.
Click to expand...

If your setup isn't capable of decent accuracy your errors will sometimes hamper your results the same as it does with any load development process.
Your rifle has to move to shoot well so no lead sleds or tripods.
 
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#100
Lynn Jr said:
If your setup isn't capable of decent accuracy your errors will sometimes hamper your results the same as it does with any load development process.
Your rifle has to move to shoot well so no lead sleds or tripods.
Click to expand...
Lynn,

While a lot of us use tripods, sometimes just the side of the legs as a rear support and sometimes snapped in; the rifle does recoil. But nobody, really nobody is using tripods for load dev. It is super hard to shot <=MOA off a tripod.. it is a tool for sure, but not for load work ups.

I think some guys on here might call a “rest” a “lead-sled” as a generic term. I certainly would agree that a real lead sled, is one of the biggest hoaxs in the shooting industry.
 
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