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Ladder Test, real or Imagined
- Thread starter Lumpybrass
- Start date
no 2k for me i stopped shooting the big boomers several yrs ago i prefer the tactical shooting...for now...i figure ill do F-class or maybe BR when i cant move from stage to stage anymore.
ive picked hoppes brain several times and i understand how you guys do your load development and ive probably shot at least 10-15 ladders over the years but have never walked away with an acceptable load from the ladder test but again like i say its most likely me.
load development is kinda like diets...all the new diets are not actually new they have just been renamed maybe tweaked a little and reintroduced as the latest greatest thing..the satterlle load development...i may be off a little but its a ladder test that uses flat spots in velocity to find a load that is supposed to preform well in hotter or cooler weather...during the test i dont think your looking for groups or water lines just velocity because a lotta guys just shoot this test into the dirt
your ladder test is looking for a few loads that have a nice water line and then adjust with seating and then fine tune with primers if needed.
the OCW is a simple way to find a good load in a small amount of rounds fired and takes a lot of the shooter error out of the equation because your not shooting 3-5 rounds at the same time...1 round and move to the next charge until youve ran through all the charge weights you have loaded and then start on target #1 and repeat until all rounds are fired.
paul reaids load development http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev is IMHO another version of the OCW and for me is the fastest way for me to find a load for the type of shooting i do...if im in the middle of a barrel or changing something i will shoot 3 round groups if im shooting a new barrel i will shoot 2 3 round groups just as is laid out but i start low and shoot up and then shoot from high to low...when i find a load i then shoot it and 500 then to 1080 if 2" or better at 500 5" or better at 1080 im done if much bigger than those numbers(and conditions tested in are good)i might play with seating or charge weight but i dont chase neck tension ever and primers only if ESs are higher than mid teens which is rare.
these guys here are seasoned shooters and know what they are doing...they and i just use a different means to get to the same end result as you do...also IMHO ladders OF ANY KIND are not for new shooters or reloaders they should stick to the OCW type load development.
47Guy
I rarely see seasoned shooters arguing that a ladder test doesn't work.
In fact when I read the posts by the guys claiming it doesn't work isn't repeatable and you can't find a load doing it I rarely find they have much useful reloading experience at all.
Hoppe probably spends 30 minutes a year on his loads per gun and once he has his load it won't change.
A
Tell him I said that and let me know his response.
This thread should have taken 3-4 posts to straighten out and get everyone doing things correctly and efficiently.
Unfortunately the children heard the word Benchrest and after they threw there normal fits/rants they derailed the thread.
This truly is much faster and easier that's why people are doing it.
I could put you behind one of my rifles at 300 yards and after 10 shots you would be telling me were the two nodes are and is that all there is to this!!!
It's that simple.
The world record in the picture was shot by a guy you would never want to load any ammunition for you. He was a good shooter but a terrible reloader.
I rarely see seasoned shooters arguing that a ladder test doesn't work.
In fact when I read the posts by the guys claiming it doesn't work isn't repeatable and you can't find a load doing it I rarely find they have much useful reloading experience at all.
Hoppe probably spends 30 minutes a year on his loads per gun and once he has his load it won't change.
A
Tell him I said that and let me know his response.
This thread should have taken 3-4 posts to straighten out and get everyone doing things correctly and efficiently.
Unfortunately the children heard the word Benchrest and after they threw there normal fits/rants they derailed the thread.
This truly is much faster and easier that's why people are doing it.
I could put you behind one of my rifles at 300 yards and after 10 shots you would be telling me were the two nodes are and is that all there is to this!!!
It's that simple.
The world record in the picture was shot by a guy you would never want to load any ammunition for you. He was a good shooter but a terrible reloader.
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I’m going to print out your picture and paste it to my bathroom wall...
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
The pictures are there for validation. He is very very very knowledgeable and we are not showing respect and yet he cannot look away. There is something to be said for the 3k qualifying match in the midst of a 600,000 acre fire. Last year qualifying conditions...
I am actually biting my tongue so I don't point out what I actually think about your reloading skills.
As I see it you can't do it so nobody else should be doing it?
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/
As I see it you can't do it so nobody else should be doing it?
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/
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This is basically what I was trying to say for a positional or hunting gun.
I do a modified OCW @100 but take the time to include a non-influencing chrono. I pick the middle of the 3 charges that appear to produce the same poi, but also have good chrono numbers that I gathered at the same time. Generally all load dev is complete in well under 50 rounding and usually I don’t move on to fiddling with seating.. if I am , =<3/8. Also I have a 100 yard range on the same exit as my office.
I have never seen a gun that can shoot 1/4 or 3/8 with steady velocity numbers not perform similarly with wind, optical disturbances aside, inside the bullets stable range. But again, for our type of shooting we aren’t looking to get our groups into the 1/10s of MOA. Our focus needs to be on how can we remember the COF, create a stage plan, smooth transitions, not get DQ’d, find the targets and somehow squeeze on a wobbly high stress environment without inducing more wobble all accomplished while seeing our splash and under ungodly time constraints.
We are shooting a couple hundred rounds at many of our matches and thousands of rounds per year making compromises in what is considered good enough. Our focus is in a different place, so what one guys wrong might be another’s only way.
There is no doubt that benchrest has given us great barrels and actions along with the machining and most of the reloading knowledge that has let our sport explode.. Today, it is common place in field and PRS/NRL to see targets past 1K, not uncommon to get a 1400 or maybe even a mile target at a positional or field match out West. All because of some of what has been learned from BR. Unfortunately, not everything is directly transferable, scopes are prime example.
So I can’t say @Lynn Jr methods are wrong, especially out of the benchrest equipment. Hell, I am sure is is far better than what I do. But at the end of the day, using the OCW, if a bullet is slightly out, I know it was me. It is much harder to know at 300/400 or whatever without the benchrest tools.
A lot of shooters don’t have the equipment to take enough of themselves out of the equation or maybe can’t easily get to a location to shoot longer range load work ups. So maybe some of these shooters are saying ladders don’t work well for their equipment or range access and that good enough is just that; for what must of us do on this site.
Many of us on this forum have shot a match or matches together, some from the same branches, worked together on projects or otherwise communicated.. The people who are posers usually get weeded out rather fast around here. So having to challenge someone to a shoot off, or posting certifications, isn’t really going to increase anyone opinions, at least on this site.
I am sure Lynn has stuff he can share as well as a couple of guys on here that Lynn has said are Inept.
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Diver
If your gun can shoot smaller and you would use less rounds to achieve that goal why wouldn't you give it a try?
It sounds like you want big groups and less barrel life?
The only positive I see in this thread is someone has a better picture hanging in there bathroom now.
If your gun can shoot smaller and you would use less rounds to achieve that goal why wouldn't you give it a try?
It sounds like you want big groups and less barrel life?
The only positive I see in this thread is someone has a better picture hanging in there bathroom now.
Lynn,
I’ve shoot ladders a bunch. That used to be the way I picked my load. But my club range is a bit of a drive.
I now know that I can easily get the job done (for my type of shooting) next to my office at 100 yards. Truth be told, usually, I just have a barrel spun up with the same reamer or a couple at the same time and test it at 100. Some barrels are slower as are some of my lots of powder, but usually it is right in there.
Some of us shoot wildcats so there is no data to start from, better safe than sorry.
Others would like lower recoil, longer barrel life, longer brass life, less noise, and saving on powder, so they pick the low "sweet spot", see how nice I am CP, lol.
A few here and there throw charges still. I do with 223 non match ammo, and old service rifles that the preferred load be a lower pressure one. Usually with ball powder or fine extruded.
Also some brass Co's brass can't handle the pressure another brands brass can.
But, yes I usually want the most load density I can get away with and a medium to warm load for precision rifle.
There are a few left in this post you have alienated yourself from yet, get to it.
I know Diver and 47Guy from other forums and they know already I don't suffer fools well.
The shooter in my post to 47Guy shot the smallest group ever fired at a NBRSA 600 yard match as my father pulled his target and I was two benches away.
I doubt you have any shooting accomplishments at all and there is nothing wrong with that.
What I see however is a select few here that haven't figured out 80 year old military technology trying to convince those that can that it can't be done.
As already stated you can't do it.
You should be posting questions as to why that is.
If I can do it surely you and snookey can.
And I have alienated myself from those who don't know how to reload? Do I have that right?
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Milo has been reloading only thirty years and maybe more so please excuse his stupidity. At this point in this thread you have reached the Virgin Mary syndrome and you won't see us fall into that one. You've failed at achievement but passed at nihilism, comrade. You've found my "sweet spot", sugar. Now, take those goddamn panties off.
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D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Don't you have a date to meet at a rest stop somewhere?
How is it that you are some kind of icon in your own mind, when nobody has ever heard of you?
Is it better to be a poser here among folks who don't give a fuck, than to be over at Accurateshooter where they know you are a joke and a cocksucker?
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
He's a cocksucker, too? Why didn't he just post a picture of that to begin with?
And your maturity is showing but your shooting accomplishment are not.
Ask questions and learn something from those that know and you won't look so uniformed and silly.
If Milo has been loading that long and still doesn't know what he is doing there is no hope for him.
Maybe you guys that can't figure a ladder test out can help him? You all seem to talk alot about faggotry and sucking cocks.
There might be a better forum for you.
Ask questions and learn something from those that know and you won't look so uniformed and silly.
If Milo has been loading that long and still doesn't know what he is doing there is no hope for him.
Maybe you guys that can't figure a ladder test out can help him? You all seem to talk alot about faggotry and sucking cocks.
There might be a better forum for you.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
I was looking for the ladder test thread. Saw a post that mentioned cock sucking and load in the same sentence. Must be in the wrong place.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Listen up 3rd grade girly.
I made one comment on not trusting any test to one shot. You immediately said I bring nothing to table. I gave you that one, it was a one off not needed. But I hope I did highlight to people trying one shot ladders, you better be damn god or lucky that day. One skewed shot, skews all the work done.
2nd, I guess I do not have any shooting accomplishments other than hitting what I aim at, what it's all about. Whenever I do something competitively, I run into twats like you. It takes the fun out of it.
I do not need, nor will I ever ask you a question on anything. I do not need your self promoting bullshit. I for one, feel you have an inflated estimation of your abilities< there we have it again.
Grow the fuck up, quit acting like a 10 yr old bitch, maybe then your acceptance will be validated. Until then, you are just gray noise in the fucking background.
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
You keep saying to ask questions...I thought those were pretty good ones.
The guys in camo with the face paint can't give you a honest answer because they don't know how to do one.
Milo 2.5
Why on god's green earth would I ask you anything shooting related.
I ask from those who can give solid answers and with solid backgrounds not those who just make up excuses.
I can get better Intel from culpepers cat.
Milo 2.5
Why on god's green earth would I ask you anything shooting related.
I ask from those who can give solid answers and with solid backgrounds not those who just make up excuses.
I can get better Intel from culpepers cat.
When you guys decide I have a load that needs to be developed. tagging along until there is a consensus.
I have seen guys with more than acceptable loads for our game who did neither. I'll say it again, you better be good if trusting things to 1 shot. It you do the same as a ladder with 2-3 shots, it basically turns your test into an ocw.
Lynn is a self proclaimed god, follow his advice.
Trust me nobody is listening to you because as already stated you simply can't do it.
I'm starting to see a trend here as I pointed out the other day in another thread. More dick pulling and jumping at an opportunity to say look at me and what I did. Do you get off on that shit? I have yet to see anyone impressed with you or your bullshit. In case you haven't realized we aren't benchrest shooters, don't have the fancy rest that takes the shooter out of the equation. Most here shoot from a bipod and rear bag.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Fuck me is this thread still going. Did we come to an agreement on Ladder vs OCW? I really want to know which is better. Maybe the OP can add a poll to the original question. That would make it a hell of a lot easier to see the opinions of others then reading through this thread.
I am so confused if I want to shoot my load should I OCW/Ladder/Lube?
Lube, ladder up, then you can OCW till you get all shots in one hole
