Landlord keeps forcing me to hide my stash

rangeryo

rangeryo

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 7, 2013
432
2
40
Central Virginia
#1
Just venting here, nothing too serious. It seems like once a month, my "property management" company needs to let themselves into my place of dwelling for "Routine" inspections. Generally speaking, this doesn't really bother me, but I do expect some amount of privacy in the space that I pay good money to inhabit. My biggest concern is that they will voice objection (or worse) in regards to the 20 or so pounds of gunpowder sitting atop the shelf on my reloading bench.

I don't like having to "hide" the powder, especially in confined, or otherwise closed spaces, since we all know what happens to powder that comes into contact with fire in its compressed form, so I'm reaching out to all of the trolls that I'm sure will pitch in. How would you go about safely concealing a somewhat substantial amount of explosive material?
 
#3
Most places require that you receive at least 24 hours notice of an inspection. When the inspection is going to happen, I would put the powder somewhere else. I guess the realistic choices are leave the powder out and deal with the fallout, or move it in order to avoid the fallout.
 
#5
Wait....What???

Civilian health and comfort inspections, now that is some bullshit.

I am no lawyer and wont try to be one, but something aint right about that. I can see if there was some smoke or extremely foul odor coming out of your place, but hell no.

But to your point, get a used armoire and put the entire loading setup in there. When you are not using it, close and lock it up. It will look less conspicuous than a metal cabinet.
 
#6
I wouldn't call gunpowder "explosive". The confines in which it is stored contribute to that characteristic. Unless you are storing it in a highly rigid airtight container, it is flammable.
 
#7
2 thoughts:

First, every lease I've ever seen has a clause that basically says you agree not to store any combustibles on the premises.

Second, most localities have ordinances regarding how much smokeless powder you can have at your residence, and the manner in which they need to be stored.

I'd recommend you look over your lease. If you agreed to not store combustibles, then you're going to need to keep on hiding it. If there's nothing in the lease about it, then check your local ordinances and make sure you're in compliance. Then, leave your stuff wherever you like. If they bitch, you can tell them you're in compliance with ever law/ordinance on the books.
 
#8
Im curious . Are these inspections simply someone walking in , sees there are no dead bodies laying around and leave's , or are they intrusive to the point of looking in closets , cabinets, so forth ??
 
#9
Bear in mind that if you have anything over 18lbs IIRC it has to be registered with the ATF and all it would take is some little fuck making a call to them to bring a full on riot style raid to your place. Conceal it, for no other reason that to dissuade future burglaries because where there's gun powder there's guns.

Also, you should check you local laws on those little drops ins. I run a rental and there are a lot of laws about "just dropping in for XXX inspection".
 
#10
Our apartment people come in all the time, sometimes I've had a firearm or two out, and tons of brass drying from wet tumbling, and my bench and reloading supplies in the 2nd bedroom. My main concern I I didn't want them to steal anything! I am within the law as far as everything is considered.

Now, I had forgotten the rules on powder storage. Here is the lowdown straight from the horse's mouth!

From page 4 of the December 2011 ATF EXPLOSIVES Industry Newsletter

" The Federal explosives laws (Title 18, U.S.C., Chapter 40), and the implementing regulation at 27 CFR 555.141(a)(4), generally exempt small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition. The regulation at 27 CFR 555.11 defines “Ammunition” as, “Small arms ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or smokeless propellants designed for use in small arms, including percussion caps, and 3/32″ and other external burning pyrotechnic hobby fuses. The term does not include black powder.”
Notwithstanding this exemption, importers and manufacturers engaged in the business of importing and/or manufacturing smokeless powder must possess an ATF explosives license. Further, importers of smokeless powder designed for use in small arms ammunition must also possess an ATF firearms importers license (Type 08 or 11); must register with ATF under the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act; and must submit (to ATF) and receive an approved ATF Form 6 – Part I (5330.3A), Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms Ammunition and Implements of War.

To be entitled to the exemption, the smokeless powder must be designed for use in small arms ammunition. Packaging that readily identifies the smokeless powder as being designed for use in small arms ammunition is a factor ATF will consider in determining whether it is entitled to the exemption. Smokeless powder that is not designed for use in small arms ammunition must be stored in an explosives storage magazine pursuant to the regulations at 27 CFR 555, Subpart K—Storage.
Individuals can contact ATF’s Firearms and Explosives Imports Branch at 304-616-4550 for more information on smokeless powder import requirements or visit ATF’s website at Home | ATF. "

Go read

Code of Federal Regulations Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, PART 555—COMMERCE IN EXPLOSIVES, Subpart H—Exemptions, Part §555.141 Exemptions : (4) Small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition.

eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations
 
#13
rangeryo said:
How would you go about safely concealing a somewhat substantial amount of explosive material?
Click to expand...

Powder used in reloading is a propellant powder. It is NOT, in the factory container, an explosive. It's a Hazardous Material. But only in that it flammable. Put it in a cardboard box under the bed and it should not be a problem. DO NOT put it in a fastened metal box.
 
#14
Victor N TN said:
Powder used in reloading is a propellant powder. It is NOT, in the factory container, an explosive. It's a Hazardous Material. But only in that it flammable. Put it in a cardboard box under the bed and it should not be a problem. DO NOT put it in a fastened metal box.
Click to expand...

There was some clause stating that you can only have 18lbs or so in your house without registering it with the ATF. There were several threads about this posted here a year or so ago.
 
#15
Your gun powder really should be in a wooden box or a non sealed metal cabinet anyway.


rangeryo said:
Just venting here, nothing too serious. It seems like once a month, my "property management" company needs to let themselves into my place of dwelling for "Routine" inspections. Generally speaking, this doesn't really bother me, but I do expect some amount of privacy in the space that I pay good money to inhabit. My biggest concern is that they will voice objection (or worse) in regards to the 20 or so pounds of gunpowder sitting atop the shelf on my reloading bench.

I don't like having to "hide" the powder, especially in confined, or otherwise closed spaces, since we all know what happens to powder that comes into contact with fire in its compressed form, so I'm reaching out to all of the trolls that I'm sure will pitch in. How would you go about safely concealing a somewhat substantial amount of explosive material?
Click to expand...
 
#16
They call them "Routine Inspections" There were here just three weeks ago for a "lender inspection" and a "pre-lender inspection" where their noticed claimed they were coming to verify that there were no leaks, electrical problems, etc. Received a notice yesterday, that they would be coming back in today for a "Spring maintenance inspection", with the details being the same as they were for the "pre-lender inspection". Either way, its not a huge hassle to just throw jugs of powder in a large plastic container I keep under my reloading bench. It's just an annoyance that I have to go through such process on a regular basis. It's not so much that I feel I need to hide it, I just don't want to attract any unnecessary attention which might lead to additional questioning.
 
#20
One time we had maintenance come into our apartment, because of a burst water line. A few weeks I got called into the local police department, I was escorted into an interogation room. Two detectives started asking me who I was were I moved to that town from. They had a file in front of them, my file and my brothers also. After they started asking me about suspicious powders and scales, I figured out why I was there. After explaining to them about my reloading bench, they asked to go over to my apartment. They showed up took a look at it, and called the apartment management and explained to them everything was safe.
 
#21
That has to be excessive inspections. What can be the justification? Is this some city subsidized rental property? Man, this is scary shit. I'd move. Do it. BB
 
#23
I am a professional property manager. By that I mean, I work for a property management firm and manage140 single family homes. I also own my own rentals and have had rentals off and on for over 30 years, both commercial and residential. Our lease specifically states that the tenant will obey ALL federal, state, county, and city laws, ordinances, & codes. Failure to do so is an irrevocable breach of the lease and MAY result in the termination of the lease and requirement that the tenant vacate the premises. Our lease also states that we MAY conduct MONTHLY inspections with proper notice to the tenant. In CA that is 24 hr. notice in writing absent verbal consent from the tenant.

Put yourself in the prop. mgmt. co. place. They have a fiduciary duty (at least WE do per our management agreement w/ the owner) to uphold the owners' interest and provide professional management services to include a legal buffer from liability issues as well as counseling owners on applicable laws w/ relation to their property.

If the law says you can only have so many lbs. of gunpowder and we learn you are in violation of that law, we have a responsibility to rectify that problem as per the lease. Not personal. Business. if we don't, and the place blows up or catches fire due to the improper storage of which we had knowledge, guess who gets to eat the wienie?

I use the monthly inspection clause to weed out the druggies. Pain in the ass, but effective. Even w/ the 24 hr. notice requirement, it gets tiresome on BOTH ends. I let em know I'm hip to the game and WHEN I find evidence, I'm call the cops. They usually find other digs.

If your lease has similar provisions, you might consider either storing the powder off site, buying your own home, or moving to another residence NOT managed by a professional mgmt. company. Either way, the applicable local laws still may impact you on some level.


Sux, but we ain't living in a free world. I am the FIRST person to stand up and scream, "Don't tell me what to do MF"! But I am JUST savvy enough to recognize my situation and when to keep my mouth shut and hide the goodies (like when I go on vacation.Hate to have a fire while I'm in Cancun and the insurance co. denies coverage due to some infraction).

Be courteous, polite, non-effusive, non-committal, and cautious. Feels like the mgmt. co. smells a rat. Good luck.
 
#24
Oh, forgot, DO NOT change the locks without written permission from the mgmt. co. or owner IF that is a clause in the lease. Ours say a tenant may NOT make alterations or repairs of ANY type without prior written permission to do so.


And YES, I CAN look in the closets, cabinets, garage, back yard, sheds, attics etc. I'm checking for health/safety issues, water leaks, mold, etc. etc. The lease is written to protect the owner and the mgmt. co. NOT the tenant. State/federal laws do a pretty good job of that!
 
#25
I think its safe to say that the majority of us apartment dwellers could find ourselves in a bit of a quagmire if some anti-gun liberal property manager asshole dropped by for a surprise inspection and found our "stash", as the OP so eloquently put it.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think my place of residence needs a Fire Division 4 sign posted on the front door ;)
 
#26
Well , when your done looking through the closets , cabinets and so forth , would you like a stool sample as well , maybe you should look inside my piggy bank. Better check under all the pillows , never know when the tooth fairy has been by.
 
#27
HodgdonExtreme said:
Don't shoot the messenger.

I get your point, but I'm pretty sure most judges wouldn't consider a roll of asswipe a combustible, but would an 8lb jug of smokeless.
Click to expand...

No, I'm sure a judge would understand what combustible means. I'm just not so sure you're remembering the correct word. No worries.

op, I'm pretty certain a landlord or inspector cannot open a locked personal container.
 
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#28
I would get an old cooler and put your powder in the cooler and set it in a corner with something placed on top of it.

Its not the display of powder that would worry me, its the fact that its not cheap and I would not want visitors eyes on my expensive stuff in my dwelling.
 
#29
24 hour notice is typical. I won a suit against a management company that preferred to just "show up". You HAVE to check the applicable laws (major pain in the A$$), but my guess is that no where is it legal for a management company/landlord to just unlock the door and "walk in" to a rented space. Be smart, know the law.

I thought I would add - always consider where you are and the INDIVIDUAL you are dealing with. I've had major problems with some, but the last time my landlord came by the discussion turned to die selection...
 
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#31
High Binder said:
There was some clause stating that you can only have 18lbs or so in your house without registering it with the ATF. There were several threads about this posted here a year or so ago.
Click to expand...

You wouldn't happen to have a link to a .gov that confirms this would you?

Like this link that exempts "small arms ammunition and components thereof;"

https://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-explosives-in-the-united-states.html

Hell, I have single 20 lb kegs of powder.
 
#33
jmorris said:
You wouldn't happen to have a link to a .gov that confirms this would you?

Like this link that exempts "small arms ammunition and components thereof;"

https://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-explosives-in-the-united-states.html

Hell, I have single 20 lb kegs of powder.
Click to expand...

No, I don't but we beat the topic to death about a year ago here so there's probably a record of it. The take away point was that if you had anything over 18lbs you had to register with the ATF, i.e. it's legal to have over 18lbs but you have to register.

I think most of us found that we had exactly 17.5lbs.
 
#34
Leave out a really large double ended dildo with lube in plane sight, this will distract them from your powder stores and hopefully make anyone in the room uncomfortable enough to leave as soon as possible.
 
#35
NFPA 495, Chapter 11,

11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
 
#36
kmussack said:
NFPA 495, Chapter 11,

11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you guys keep quoting the same thing, nobody is saying it's illegal to have more than ~18lbs it's just that if you do you have to register it with the ATF. For example: it's legal to own a gun and you guys keep posting quotes that prove it's legal to own a gun but you have to register that gun (in Commie states) and that's a totally different law...
 
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#37
Where do you find the "register" part.

I found this.

Alliant Powder - Storage & Handling


Unwritten are the words "register with ATF".

State and City laws only count for people who live within them.

For that matter the OP could have signed a contract for his dwelling that prohibts storage of gun powder period but that has little concern for the rest of us.
 
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#38
High Binder said:
Yeah, you guys keep quoting the same thing, nobody is saying it's illegal to have more than ~18lbs it's just that if you do you have to register it with the ATF. For example: it's legal to own a gun and you guys keep posting quotes that prove it's legal to own a gun but you have to register that gun (in Commie states) and that's a totally different law...
Click to expand...

Unless you can provide reference documentation I gotta call bullshit on this play.
 
#40
Back to the OPs original question and the inspections, you said the last one was a Lender Inspection? That is pretty standard if they are going to refinance the property. This upcoming one is a spring inspection? Couldn't that simply be turning on outside water and changing out filters on HVAC? I'm just playing devils advocate and yes I would store your stuff up in a closet somewhere but if it is just these two inspections these sound pretty standard and nothing out of the ordinary.
 
#41
High Binder said:
No, I don't but we beat the topic to death about a year ago here so there's probably a record of it. The take away point was that if you had anything over 18lbs you had to register with the ATF, i.e. it's legal to have over 18lbs but you have to register.

I think most of us found that we had exactly 17.5lbs.
Click to expand...

Internet consensus? Fucking Seriously.....

I have NEVER heard of registering with the ATF for smokeless powder, much less over 18lb.

My state, Virginia, fire code reads;

dd exceptions 10, 11 and 12 to Section 3301.1 to read:
10. The storage, handling, or use of explosives or blasting
agents pursuant to the provisions of Title 45.1 of the Code
of Virginia.
11. The display of small arms primers in Group M when in the original manufacturer’s packaging

The possession, storage and use of not more than 50 pounds (23 kg) of commercially manufactured sporting black
powder, 100 pounds (45 kg) of smokeless powder, and small arms primers for hand loading of small arms
ammunition for personal consumption in Group R-3 or R-5, or 200 pounds (91 kg) of smokeless powder when
stored in the manufacturer’s original containers in detached Group U structures at least 10 feet (3048 mm) from
inhabited buildings and are accessory to Group R-3 or R-5.

R-3, Multiple Dwelling Residential District

The Zoning Ordinance states that the R-3, Multiple Dwelling Residential District is intended for medium- to high-density residential development and other uses intended to respect the residential character, which are aesthetically compatible within the district by means of architectural expression, landscaping, and restrained traffic flow. The residential density ranges for R-3 are single-family, 6,000 sq. ft. minimum; duplex, 4,000 sq. ft/unit; multi-family, 3,000 sq. ft. minimum per unit; townhouses, 2,000 sq. ft. minimum per unit; and other uses, 6,000 sq. ft. minimum.

:: Top ::

R-3, Medium Density Residential District

The Zoning Ordinance states that the R-3, Medium Density Residential District is intended for medium density residential development and other uses intended to respect the residential character, which are aesthetically compatible within the district by means of architectural expression, landscaping, and restrained traffic flow. The residential density ranges for R-3 are single-family, 6,000 sq. ft. minimum; duplex, 4,000 sq. ft/unit; townhouses, 2,000 sq. ft. minimum per unit; other uses, 6,000 sq. ft. minimum and by special use permit multi-family, 3,000 sq. ft. minimum per unit.

R-5, High Density Residential District

The Zoning Ordinance states that the R-5, High Density Residential District is intended for medium to high density residential development, including townhouses and multiple family dwelling units, together with certain governmental, educational, religious, recreational and utility uses.

Recommendations from Alliant's website;

10-3 SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS. 10-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 LB (11.3kg), in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation, may be transported in a private vehicle.

10-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb (11.3kg) but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), transported in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least 1-inc. (25.4-mm) nominal thickness.

10-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.

10-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants in quantities not exceeding 100 lb. (45.4kg) are classified for transportation purposes as flammable solids when packaged according to U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations. (Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Park 173.197a), and shall be transported accordingly.

10-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg) or not packaged in accordance with the regulations cited in 10-3.4 shall be transported according to the U. S. Department of Transportation regulations for Class B propellant explosives.

10-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by U. S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.

10-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) may be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), may be stored in residences if kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls or at least 1-inc. (25.4-mm) nominal thickness.

10-3.8 Not more than 20 lb (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1-lb (0.45-kg) maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments.

10-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants should be stored as follows:
(a) Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1-in (25.4-mm) thickness.
(b) Quantities exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), but not exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), shall be stored in non portable storage cabinets having walls of at least 1-in (25.4-mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb (181 kg) may be stored in any one cabinet and cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
(c) Quantities exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), but not exceeding 5,000 lb (2268 kg), may be stored in a building if the following requirements are met:

The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.
Smokeless propellant shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wood walls at least 1 inc. (25.4 mm) thick and having shelves with no more than 3 ft (0.92 m) separation between shelves.
No more than 400 lb (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet.
Cabinets shall be located against walls of the storage room or warehouse with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.
Separation between cabinets may be reduced to 250 ft (6.1m) if barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft (3m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4-inc. (6.4-mm) boiler plate, 2-in. (51-mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.
Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63mm) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed accordingly to NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.

(d) Smokeless propellants not stored according to (a), (b) and (c) above shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located according to Chapter 6.
 
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#43
jmorris said:
Wildbill the "broad based legalities" you posted are just the "Recommendations" from the NPFA. They only become law if they are adopted.
Click to expand...

Been changed thanks. What I'm getting at here is registering with the ATF if you got more than 18lb of smokeless powder is bullshit and you can legally keep over 18lb and not have legal issues.
 
#44
kmussack said:
Unless you can provide reference documentation I gotta call bullshit on this play.
Click to expand...
WildBill3/75 said:
What I'm getting at here is registering with the ATF if you got more than 18lb of smokeless powder is bullshit and you can legally keep over 18lb and not have legal issues.
Click to expand...


Here is how many fucks I give --> 0

The bottom line is that somebody here found and posted the law that if you have over ~18lbs you had to register it with the ATF, we had a big discussion about it here around a year ago
(before the switch) and that's all I know...
 
#46
High Binder said:
Here is how many fucks I give --> 0

The bottom line is that somebody here found and posted the law that if you have over ~18lbs you had to register it with the ATF, we had a big discussion about it here around a year ago
(before the switch) and that's all I know...
Click to expand...

If you don't give a fuck and can't show evidence then why the fuck are you posting mindless bullshit. I read threw approx 112pages of mind numbing ATF burocracy bullshit and failed to see a damn thing about "18lb smokeless powder you damn well better register or we are going to hunt you down and burn you alive in your residence!"

Have you tried calling them up to register your 18lb?
Do you believe everything you see on the internet?
Do you know where one might find some chemlight batteries?
 
#47
WildBill3/75 said:
If you don't give a fuck and can't show evidence then why the fuck are you posting mindless bullshit. I read threw approx 112pages of mind numbing ATF burocracy bullshit and failed to see a damn thing about "18lb smokeless powder you damn well better register or we are going to hunt you down and burn you alive in your residence!"?
Click to expand...


Whoa, take some deep breaths there killer...

Woo-SAA
 
#49
I've owned my house for the past 12 years, but I lived in rent houses for 20 years prior to that and never had a landlord come in and snoop through my stuff. I wouldn't be comfortable with that arrangement and would move somewhere else if it were happening to me. If you must tolerate these intrusions, I think you should simply have a large locking cabinet and then its none of their damn business what's inside. I'd find a place to live where nobody feels the need to come in and inspect my belongings.
 
#50
High Binder said:
Here is how many fucks I give --> 0

The bottom line is that somebody here found and posted the law that if you have over ~18lbs you had to register it with the ATF, we had a big discussion about it here around a year ago
(before the switch) and that's all I know...
Click to expand...

I posted the link to the law in #39. Repeating false, "somebody said", information doesn't make it fact. If all you know is some line of bullshit someone fed you with nothing to back it up, you should be open minded about learning.

Like I was when I asked for links to the information you had, before I looked up what the law actually is.
 
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