Heres something else the optical comparator I set them on other day showed the inner point was more of a perfect sphere . Not in corralation to the outter profile ,but it establishes a slip stream that the projectile easily runs thru. Now heres the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say and I dont mind telling you some day I might meet you, I dont compete anymore. So hopefully it will help. The 3 groups I posted Saturday at 320 yds. The 1st 2 that scattered like a covey a quail they were right out of the box running 40% in a 3x3. That 3rd group I took my 8 power visors and my piece of soft leather and cleaned the tip till it shined careful not to damage the sharpe edge difference 7 in a 2.5x3" square all 10 in a 6x7" most folks can't keep every shot on a paper plate with a 243 at that range and that's the rest of the story.
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Lapua lot testing and barrel wear question
- Thread starter catalyst81
- Start date
They got back to me. It's just a mark from the seating operation...Found out today NASA had a hand in the Eley bullet butdont let anybody you shoot against know
tell'im that dipping the tip in black shoe polish makes it shoot better
Got this response from the test center today:
Hello Thomas,
Thank you for contacting us at Capstone PG. We had checked with our staff to see what the consensus is for proper barrel break-in is for a .22 LR and it seems that anywhere from 500 rounds to 1,000 rounds fired through the barrel is what is normally considered to be what one should be looking at doing. It would most likely take less ammo fired through the barrel for a good high quality barrel like what is generally used on a rifle like your Vudoo or an Anschutz. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Capstone Tech Team if we can be of further assistance.
Bob Blaine
| 11:56 AM (47 minutes ago) | |||
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Hello Thomas,
Thank you for contacting us at Capstone PG. We had checked with our staff to see what the consensus is for proper barrel break-in is for a .22 LR and it seems that anywhere from 500 rounds to 1,000 rounds fired through the barrel is what is normally considered to be what one should be looking at doing. It would most likely take less ammo fired through the barrel for a good high quality barrel like what is generally used on a rifle like your Vudoo or an Anschutz. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Capstone Tech Team if we can be of further assistance.
Bob Blaine
There may be more to this. Here's a report that calls for very careful reading and thought.
U.S. Army Team Tests Radical New Dimpled Bullet « Daily Bulletin (accurateshooter.com)
They got back to me. It's just a mark from the seating operation...
I guessed correctly....better go buy a lottery ticket, see if my luck holds up.
I guessed correctly....better go buy a lottery ticket, see if my luck holds up.
I did a extreme test yesterday I made a precise tool to the center-x indent. The test conditions were horriable! 9 mph steady wind 430 at right shoulder 12-15 gusts enough that the empty casings and my readers were blown off the bench. What better conditions though right? The ammo of choice to modify was Wolf match extra. 10 rounds were altered see photo 1 bottom to top modified wolf,plain wolf, center x as is. I zeroed with wolf unaltered on my iron bison I was 4.9 moa right for wind still needed 1 moa connected 3 out of 5 at 320 yds. My range layout is tough to shoot its across a valley and at the 220 butt you get wind that's similar to the bench wind but it pushes down some coming off the hill. In photo 2 at 220 you'll see a cluster of orange feathers at the end of the rod is where their tied there being blown from 3 oclock proably 5mph in the distance you see the 320 butt. In photo 3 you see the 320 butt notice the flag snaking back to 4.30 this butt is on a high point and the north east wind cuts through here with ease. Creating sudden shifts even though the bench wind is steady , so when the flag lays down you gotta send lead fast. Loaded up the WOLF MATCH EXTRA SUPER DUPER X I got 3 off waited got 2 off wind whipped the flag to 3 just as number 2 went down, got 4 in a row off fired final shot . All ten shots in about 4 minutes. Photo 3 shows group still a little left and low 5 in a 3x3 3 up all 8 in a 7x10 1 way up center and the one I knew was gonna be right at 3 these are all in pink. The group, ie strong across the top in yellow unaltered wuf wuf that's how they shot 6 hits outta 10, I will conduct this test on a more favorable day before reaching conclusion , but at current it certainly seamed to remove alot of horizontal error. This last pic is from bench across range.
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You think I'd tell you all my secrets? It's kind like sayin there was no cheating in our last elections, hoping the sheep believe it.They got back to me. It's just a mark from the seating operation...
I guessed correctly....better go buy a lottery ticket, see if my luck holds up.
I just put a Center X and a Eley 10X under a toolmakers microscope and did some measuring. The diameter of the flat on the Eley was .116ish. The Center X ring measured about .118. Coincidence???
Under high magnification the corners on the Eley were less than perfect but that ring on the Center X was amazingly uniform and precise. Far too precise to not be intentional in my opinion.
Under high magnification the corners on the Eley were less than perfect but that ring on the Center X was amazingly uniform and precise. Far too precise to not be intentional in my opinion.
Statistically that’s all the luck you’ll have.They got back to me. It's just a mark from the seating operation...
I guessed correctly....better go buy a lottery ticket, see if my luck holds up.
Have you compared the concentricity of this recess to the rest of the cartridge?
Like I said you had to be INVOLVED in the R&D of military craft or munitions to even be in touch with theories or concepts. The people are space kadets in their thinking, but its normally back with solid math and physics.
I wonder how often the barrels are replaced at the RWS, Eley and Lapua factories?
With batch testing and lot grading, those testing barrels eat 22lr all day long.
If anybody would know about barrel life, the technicians running the testing would.
Yes, I've already contacted RWS, Eley and Lapua and asked that question.
Waiting on replies.
I know, ruin a perfectly good discussion with facts and logic again.
With batch testing and lot grading, those testing barrels eat 22lr all day long.
If anybody would know about barrel life, the technicians running the testing would.
Yes, I've already contacted RWS, Eley and Lapua and asked that question.
Waiting on replies.
I know, ruin a perfectly good discussion with facts and logic again.
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@Frank Green do you do any test barrels for 22lr?I wonder how often the barrels are replaced at the RWS, Eley and Lapua factories?
With batch testing and lot grading, those testing barrels eat 22lr all day long.
If anybody would know about barrel life, the technicians running the testing would.
Yes, I've already contacted RWS, Eley and Lapua and asked that question.
Waiting on replies.
I know, ruin a perfectly good discussion with facts and logic again.
Yep we have made and make ammunition test barrels for 22LR.
We made a batch of barrels for a customer that went overseas several years ago. This was for Norma and the testing was for a European Olympic team. What I was told that after testing our barrels tied for 1st place in the accuracy try outs for the team. They only went with the European maker at the time because of the import/costs etc...
About 3-4 years ago another well known rifle maker bought twenty 22rf barrels from us for testing. Two of those rifles went to Eley. Which led to a order for 300. Now they place an order every year. They said there where barrels that would shoot as good....but none shot better than ours.
I don't know when they pull the barrels for barrel life over in Europe at the test facilities like RWS/Eley/Lapua etc.... I do know this....over here in the States barrel life is approx. 80k plus rounds before/when they pull them. The AMU pulls they're barrels around 40-50k rounds if I remember correctly. Really depends on the accuracy req. and what your using them for.
The other thing that I find interesting on test barrels for 22Rf that we've had requests for where we did the chamber work...it's either the standard Saami sporting chamber or the Saami match chamber. The Saami match chamber to me is really tight. I wouldn't run it on any of my guns. What and when they use one over the other....my guess is as good as yours.
Received my first reply...
Michele Makucevich <[email protected]>
ELEY monitors barrel performance through the use of control batches.
When performance using these control batches starts to diminish
we will change the barrel to ensure accuracy is maintained.
The barrel wear is very much dependant on the type, quality and cleaning and maintenance
it has received. Some will last for 75,000 rounds, others in excess of 110,000 rounds.
Best regards,
Michele Makucevich
Key Account Manager
Michele Makucevich <[email protected]>
ELEY monitors barrel performance through the use of control batches.
When performance using these control batches starts to diminish
we will change the barrel to ensure accuracy is maintained.
The barrel wear is very much dependant on the type, quality and cleaning and maintenance
it has received. Some will last for 75,000 rounds, others in excess of 110,000 rounds.
Best regards,
Michele Makucevich
Key Account Manager
I send 2 to 4 boxes of 22lr per range visit.
Call it about 150 round average per week.
That's about a case and a half per year.
Spread among 3 rifles, 4 pistols, not really anything to worry about.
Call it about 150 round average per week.
That's about a case and a half per year.
Spread among 3 rifles, 4 pistols, not really anything to worry about.
When you asked Lapua about the curiosity on the end of the bullet, did you describe it with words or did you include a close-up picture for reference?
That would be like you buying their 6.5 creedmoor brass and all of them have dents in the neck. You ask about it and they say yea! That happens during final polish in the tumblers? You think they would sell them ? If I can keep putting the same Mark's on my wolf match and get 7-8" groups at 320 yds I'll save a bunch of money.
I'm 18,821 through an eight month old Anschutz. Being from the north there was snow on the ground half that time which tends to slow me down a bit.
Watching the changes in the new barrel during the first 1000 rounds,
I can see where you could have enough wear at thirty k to affect accuracy.
I can see where you could have enough wear at thirty k to affect accuracy.
In my case better. At some point worse I'm sure. I have a new barrel because I get a new rifle not because of lack of accuracy. But these are all factory barrels
According to Dan Lilja...
After that peak in performance, it becomes a gradual decline,
but would it be recognizable by any but a top level competitor?
I wouldn't know.
After that peak in performance, it becomes a gradual decline,
but would it be recognizable by any but a top level competitor?
I wouldn't know.
This may be relevant to your accuracy testing in that CZ barrel. Several of us bought the 457 varmint trainers and are testing them on an indoor 50 yard range. Full benchrest setups with no wind.
My CZ happened to be the worst shooter of the bunch. The borescope wasn’t showing me any obvious problems so I went to slugging the barrel. The throat to about ½” down was very tight compared to the rest of the bore except the last ½” at the muzzle was also very tight. After pushing the slug past the tight spot, it would fly down the barrel with no resistance at all till it hit the muzzle end.
First step was to cut the tight spot off the muzzle end. Group testing showed some improvement but still not what I was after. Next step was to order two new MTU “Match” barrels. Out of the box I slugged each. Both had the same tight spot in the first ½” of the bore. One had a bad tight spot at the muzzle. Group tested each and the barrel that was not tight at the muzzle shot on part with the other better shooters in the bunch. The barrel with tight spots on both ends shot poorly with wild fliers.
Having a better barrel on hand, I went to hand lapping the original barrel with the muzzle cut back but tight on the chamber end. I focused on lapping that tight spot and ended up with it at least reduced and left a taper on down to the muzzle. I can’t tell you the dimensional changes but there was a dramatic difference in feel while slugging with resistance on the slug all the way down the bore now.
I’ve only done one group testing session with this barrel but it has shown a dramatic improvement. It is now at least on par with the best shooting rifle in our bunch. Here is my test target. Each group is 5 shots and each row is a different lot of ammo. The bottom three rows are Center X and Midas +. The top row is Eley Practice 100. Note the two groups top left put four into less than .100” The largest group on the target measured about .390. The bottom left group at 1 o’clock was the first 5 out of the freshly lapped barrel. That row was Center X and the worst shooting lot previously in this barrel. That lot would throw groups double the size you see here.
My point regarding your test, from what I have seen on these CZ barrels, if you have a tight chamber end like I have seen in each of the small sample I tested, wear would most likely improve its accuracy. On a high precision custom barrel, I would seriously doubt the first 1000 would help unless there was an issue that needed ironing out.
My CZ happened to be the worst shooter of the bunch. The borescope wasn’t showing me any obvious problems so I went to slugging the barrel. The throat to about ½” down was very tight compared to the rest of the bore except the last ½” at the muzzle was also very tight. After pushing the slug past the tight spot, it would fly down the barrel with no resistance at all till it hit the muzzle end.
First step was to cut the tight spot off the muzzle end. Group testing showed some improvement but still not what I was after. Next step was to order two new MTU “Match” barrels. Out of the box I slugged each. Both had the same tight spot in the first ½” of the bore. One had a bad tight spot at the muzzle. Group tested each and the barrel that was not tight at the muzzle shot on part with the other better shooters in the bunch. The barrel with tight spots on both ends shot poorly with wild fliers.
Having a better barrel on hand, I went to hand lapping the original barrel with the muzzle cut back but tight on the chamber end. I focused on lapping that tight spot and ended up with it at least reduced and left a taper on down to the muzzle. I can’t tell you the dimensional changes but there was a dramatic difference in feel while slugging with resistance on the slug all the way down the bore now.
I’ve only done one group testing session with this barrel but it has shown a dramatic improvement. It is now at least on par with the best shooting rifle in our bunch. Here is my test target. Each group is 5 shots and each row is a different lot of ammo. The bottom three rows are Center X and Midas +. The top row is Eley Practice 100. Note the two groups top left put four into less than .100” The largest group on the target measured about .390. The bottom left group at 1 o’clock was the first 5 out of the freshly lapped barrel. That row was Center X and the worst shooting lot previously in this barrel. That lot would throw groups double the size you see here.
My point regarding your test, from what I have seen on these CZ barrels, if you have a tight chamber end like I have seen in each of the small sample I tested, wear would most likely improve its accuracy. On a high precision custom barrel, I would seriously doubt the first 1000 would help unless there was an issue that needed ironing out.
And Lapua responded to my question regarding barrel replacement intervals....
The throat erosion is slower. But we are talking heat etc on CF vs "sanding" with RF
There are many advantages to stainless steel that outweigh its disadvantages. Throat erosion isn’t slower. Bartlien’s new 400MODBB is slower than standard 400 series stainless, but stainless isn’t slower to erode than a good quality carbon steel.
Then why does everyone say for PRS running SS is best because you get longer barrel life?
Saying it doesn't make it necessarily true, right C?
Another one of those "read it on the internet" things.
Metal hardness varies with the type of alloy.
The more carbon in the mix, the harder it is, the better it wears.
Too hard it becomes too difficult to machine or it becomes brittle and cracks.
Old discussion...
Another one of those "read it on the internet" things.
Metal hardness varies with the type of alloy.
The more carbon in the mix, the harder it is, the better it wears.
Too hard it becomes too difficult to machine or it becomes brittle and cracks.
Old discussion...
Some thoughts...
The extensive discussion on barrel life is rather simple. Barrels for top level competitors are considered disposable items, not much different than the brake pads on your car. When they are worn or not working to expectations, they are replaced.
The difference between CM and SS barrel materials for rimfire both have advantages and disadvantages along w/ life projections which can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Use what you feel comfortable using.
For most rimfire competitors - no matter what discipline - they will not have to replace their barrel more than 1x in their lifetime. For the OCD accuracy fellowship, barrel replacement intervals can be significantly more frequent.
Regards,
ken
The extensive discussion on barrel life is rather simple. Barrels for top level competitors are considered disposable items, not much different than the brake pads on your car. When they are worn or not working to expectations, they are replaced.
The difference between CM and SS barrel materials for rimfire both have advantages and disadvantages along w/ life projections which can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Use what you feel comfortable using.
For most rimfire competitors - no matter what discipline - they will not have to replace their barrel more than 1x in their lifetime. For the OCD accuracy fellowship, barrel replacement intervals can be significantly more frequent.
Regards,
ken
I agree 100% I said that because CF guys look at RF and say things like "16in is optimal barrel length for 22lr." Etc.
It simply shows that on both sides there are things that then internet says is true but... So that is why some of us like testing and challenging these things because how do we really know its true?
Will I ever shoot enough rounds to "prove" that with a RF? I do... but I have no intentions of getting anything but SS for other reasons.
Guys have a steel factory barrel at 1200 rounds they start getting fliers so they buy a quality SS barrel have it properly chambered and get 1500 so they think its the SS.... different manufacturers use different hardness of SS too. IBI SS is slightly harder then average. IBI 22lr velocitys are higher in my experience is it related? Maybe thats bore diameter related? I'll never know or care just interesting how many detail we dont see but change the picture.
Anyone saying they shoot stainless barrels because they wear longer doesn’t know what they’re talking about, unfortunately.
