Night Vision Laser and/or illuminator?

[Shireman]

Hey fellas, I'm new to the night vision game and have recently got my 1st setup. They're helmet mounted ANVIS and I absolutely love them. Main use is killing pigs & predators, most likely with an AR and an Eotech. Practiced a bit and feel comfy out to 75-100 yds.
So my 1st question is: will an illuminator or laser help out enough to drop some cash? I like the idea of just using a laser especially after 1st shot to pick up the runners but maybe an illuminator is more efficient?
2nd question is what brand of each is recommended? Don't wanna go all out and drop $1K, was thinking about $300-$400.
Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[MontanaKid]

I think a laser is a must if you have helmet mounted NODs. Obviously you could look through your optics with the setup you have but, you kinda have to cant your head and keep a good distance between the weapon optic and the objective lens of your ANVIS. I'd focus on getting a laser first, faster aiming. A few options to consider would be:

LDI OTAL Class 1 IR Laser ? Tactical Night Vision Company
https://www.armasight.com/illumination/laser-systems/armasight-drakos/

These aren't too far off the price target. I bought a DBAL-I2 vis red from TNVC during their XMAS Sale because I like having a visible laser as it makes it easier to change optics during the day (a breeze if the lasers are slaved, zero the laser then use the laser to zero your optics). Illuminators are great for starless/moonless night hunting. Also good for home defense as it is usually darker in your house than it is outside depending on your surroundings, rural or urban. IDing your target before you fire is an obvious must.
Hope this helps, enjoy those ANVIS goggles!

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

I have been using the lasermax uni Ir laser for about two years. Its tiny (matchbox size) and has maintained zero for most of the two years. At first I had it mounted on the lower rail and It lost zero one hunt when I let it bounce on a UTV roll bar the whole night. After that I moved it topside just in front of the sight post and has been rock solid. Its a civilian class laser and is eye safe. It does not bloom the target but is quite visible for longer distances than you will be shooting with helmet mounted ANVIS and Is still visible with the brightest illuminators. Ive tried a lot of illuminators most are sitting in a box unused. I still have one ELR torch that I replaced the mount with scope rings, my other ELR Torch and Torch pro are somewhere in a soybean field because the mounts suck and come loose. For hunting the best I have used is the Luna Optics IR laser Its light, takes up very little rail space, has adjustable focus from flood to a pinpoint laser that you could call in airstrikes with, adjustable power from nothing to blinding, and push button or pressure pad on and off options.

The laser is great for when you surprise a hog or coyote. But I still prefer my optics for running hogs.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I have been using the lasermax uni Ir laser for about two years. Its tiny (matchbox size) and has maintained zero for most of the two years. At first I had it mounted on the lower rail and It lost zero one hunt when I let it bounce on a UTV roll bar the whole night. After that I moved it topside just in front of the sight post and has been rock solid. Its a civilian class laser and is eye safe. It does not bloom the target but is quite visible for longer distances than you will be shooting with helmet mounted ANVIS and Is still visible with the brightest illuminators. Ive tried a lot of illuminators most are sitting in a box unused. I still have one ELR torch that I replaced the mount with scope rings, my other ELR Torch and Torch pro are somewhere in a soybean field because the mounts suck and come loose. For hunting the best I have used is the Luna Optics IR laser Its light, takes up very little rail space, has adjustable focus from flood to a pinpoint laser that you could call in airstrikes with, adjustable power from nothing to blinding, and push button or pressure pad on and off options.

The laser is great for when you surprise a hog or coyote. But I still prefer my optics for running hogs.

Interesting Texaslawmen. We have now over a THOUSAND of V-Tac light mounts out there with the Torch Pro designed from Kyle Lamb and had only one complaint and that is you now saying they suck. Actually, if you include the rest of the volume we move for other lighting products, make that over 1500 V-Tac light mounts we have sold to a big amount of happy customers.

I will tell the truth, you IM'd me recently on the 6.8 forums wanting me to call you. When I called you, left a voice mail as you did not tell me what you wanted. You them PM'd me again on the 6.8 forum asking me if I wanted to send you gear in exchange so you can use it for your new hunting forum and shoot video for guiding service you wanted to start posting video on all the forums with our gear. Since we do not do business like this I did not call you back after you PM'd me again on the 6,8 forum telling me what you really wanted. We see who you're using for gear now (great, your choice for free stuff for favorable reviews), but now I see you will start to bad mouth only the products you do not use such as what you started above. If you think our products are junk, why would you have ever PM'd me asking for gear to donate if they were "junk" to begin with as you now speak about?

Before you discredit Kyle Lamb a former and incredibly respected Delta Operator any further (and a close friend of ours) by calling his mounts junk, I will not let that happen PERIOD.

Kyle and V-Tac make a fantastic mount that has never broke nor failed a GREAT MANY out there including combat operators who also have had great success with this V-Tac mount we use to mount our IR Torch Pro. It seems there have never been any complaints with anyone else telling us the "mounts suck and come loose", nor have we ever heard about a product defect from Viking Tactics.

Just enough of this...

Vic

 

[SkyPup]

If ya want a real hardcore IR laser to run with your NV compatible Eotech, get an LDI DBAL-I2 and Torch Pro and go kill some freaking' hogs n' dogs and have a good time and don't look back:

Head shot on coon @ 175 yards, if you can do this with your IR laser, everything between you and 175 yards is DOA:

Coyote @ 175 yards DOA:

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Victor I did not loose the light just recently the first one went out and I sent it in for repair after 6 months of no returns I wrote a bad review. And you blew up my phone and PM. Now to your credit you did get a new one sent to me within two days. And then sent me the new style for free to try out and write about. I still have that first one and its still working because I switched it to a one inch scope mount but that is after searching for it for hours after the original mount failed. The second one you sent me for free and a pro I got later on are both gone because the mounts failed. When they failed I was hunting with two Texas peace officers and a State Game Warden so I have no problems with credible witnesses. Now I will admit I use my equipment a lot. When I talked to you on the phone the several times you admitted to me the mounts were a problem. And yes I PM'ed you after you called that last time. But the reason I never answered or Pm'ed you back again Is I decided it was a bad call to work with you. Now I did a honest review of one little product you sell and you personally admitted to me on the phone was a problem. I have not trashed you or lied about you In any way. And I am not disrespecting Kyle Lamb I simply stated a fact of what I experienced using a devise. I advise you to rethink your slandering me publicly I do not think you want to go down that road. You have my number call me but I will PM you with it so there will be no excuses.

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

I sent you a PM Victor you have the number use it.

 

[shooter6.5]

First I will address Vic and his comments re TLM. TLM and I are friends and we hunt together. I read TLM's post several times and I never once saw anywhere where he mentioned Klye Lamb. I have the upmost respect for TLM and his reviews-they are straight forward and truthful. I have no knowledge of his and Vic's communication however I would believe TLM. I do and have used a # of VTAC products and what I have used works for me. BTW Vic, I get no free products for trial use, I do not work for any site sponsor, and am no member of anyones "crew". And I have the upmost respect for all branches of the military as I have worked with them in one fashion or another my entire life as either a Marine, FBI agent or most recently and Iraq/Afghan contractor.

I do buy my product from ModArmory.com and will continue to as I have always recieved excellent customer service and competitive prices. I would strongly support them.

Now to the Laser/Illuminator question. Skypup gives good answers with pics, and he has here. For me personally the torch is too big. It is strong and will illuminate all you need.

You can do the same thing with a DBAL-D2. It has a strong Illuminator and both a vis and IR laser-all in one package. It too is big but does take up less space overall. My favorite set up is an LDI CQB laser with a SF720 Illuminator. The illuminator is both White and IR and both can be adjusted for brightness. The LDI has both vis and IR capability. That set up is on a SBR and works great. All of those products were purchased thru ModArmory.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Quote again and see highlights below....You stated ELR AND Torch Pro and then said the mounts suck. WE ONLY USE V-TAC's LIGHT MOUNT ON OUR TORCH PRO AND NOTHING ELSE. We stopped selling that Russian import mount because if one did not loc-tite it it would come loose on high recoil. We then manufactured our own IR Illuminator and exclusively used the Viking tactics Light mount where you said the Torch Pro's light mounts (BOTH mounts suck you stated). I never ever stated to you the V-Tac is a problem ever, only the Russian mount on the original unit. This is a falsehood and why would I as there is over a thousand V-Tacs we have in use and not ONE complaint they suck from anyone and we continue to sell a metiric ton of the V-Tac light mount. There is NO other mount would you be talking about because you did order a Torch Pro with the V-Tac mount "my other ELR Torch and Torch pro are somewhere in a soybean field because the mounts suck and come loose.

I have been using the lasermax uni Ir laser for about two years. Its tiny (matchbox size) and has maintained zero for most of the two years. At first I had it mounted on the lower rail and It lost zero one hunt when I let it bounce on a UTV roll bar the whole night. After that I moved it topside just in front of the sight post and has been rock solid. Its a civilian class laser and is eye safe. It does not bloom the target but is quite visible for longer distances than you will be shooting with helmet mounted ANVIS and Is still visible with the brightest illuminators. Ive tried a lot of illuminators most are sitting in a box unused. I still have one ELR torch that I replaced the mount with scope rings, my other ELR Torch and Torch pro are somewhere in a soybean field because the mounts suck and come loose. For hunting the best I have used is the Luna Optics IR laser Its light, takes up very little rail space, has adjustable focus from flood to a pinpoint laser that you could call in airstrikes with, adjustable power from nothing to blinding, and push button or pressure pad on and off options.

The laser is great for when you surprise a hog or coyote. But I still prefer my optics for running hogs.

 

[clasky]

TLM: you stated in your original post that you lost both an ELR Torch and Torch PRO in a soybean field somewhere because both mounts sucked. The ELR is an old product that is no longer in production due to some QC issues we were having with the manufacturer. The mount was one of those issues. Because of that, we designed the Torch PRO without an integral mount so that it could be attached to a weapon with any 1" light mount. We offer it with the VTAC mount because we have been using that mount for years (as have tens of thousands of operators in the LE and Mil fields) without fail. We stock that mount and are friends with the owners and founder of VTAC. But, in no way is the VTAC light mount the "Torch PRO's Mount." It is simply an accessory we offer in a package deal with our product because it is a good value and good product. However, you are free to use whatever 1" light mount you choose.

But, you later admitted that it was a VTAC light mount you used. So, you are saying that the VTAC light mount sucks and are now slandering two company's products. The VTAC light mount is a very strong mount. If you properly installed it on your weapon, it should not have come off. By proper installation, I refer to proper torque settings and thread locker. Any experienced warfighter or LE professional knows that you must locktite anything that bolts onto your rifle. Firing a weapon is a very violent act that puts a lot of stress on mechanical parts. If you don't thread lock your bolts, they will back out over time. Even with thread lock, the bolts can back out over time. This is why individuals with a lot of firearms experience in rough places know they should apply witness marks to any bolt heads so they can have an immediate visual indicator if a bolt is backing out and apply precautionary measures. On top of that, dummy cording expensive items to your person or your weapon should be done. This includes lights, lasers, optics, NVG's, etc.

Now, anything made by man can and will eventually fail. In fact, it is even possible for great manufacturers to let something slip through the factory that isn't up to spec. It's possible that you were the lucky guy who received just such a product from VTAC. But, I'm going to venture a guess that you did not properly install the mount when you used it. I am not questioning whether or not you lost the items in a field with your peace officer buddies. I'm sure you did. What I am questioning is whose fault it is. There is a lot more evidence in the community to support the mount being great than the other way around. But, if you feel deep down that the mount is really a piece of junk, I highly suggest you contact the customer service department at Viking Tactics and voice your complaints. You can tell them that their mount sucks and demand they replace it and reimburse you for the cost of the item it held. I would encourage you to post their response here. You can even get your buddies to sign an affidavit that what you are saying is true.

Nobody at this company, including Victor, has ever told anyone that there is a problem with the mount for the Torch PRO as you indicated. It is a great piece of kit that, when used properly, is extremely stable. The Torch PRO is a great product that many people have enjoyed. We have a very hard time keeping them in stock. But, this whole discussion seems to center around mounts. So before you respond to me, please take this matter up with VTAC and see what they say. Please do not forget to include the bit about their mounts "sucking" in your communication with them and see how far inflammatory statements get you.

 

[MarkCO]

I have been using this: Laser Systems - rifle scopes, handgun scopes, hunting scopes,Laser Sights by Burris Optics (part# 300302) for the past 6 months and it is really nice. They do offer just the laser as well. Mine is mounted on the upper receiver. I have been able to hold 2MOA out to 200 yards with the lasers, both green and IR, which really surprised me. I can barely keep the red dot FF at 5MOA at 100 yards.

 

[SkyPup]

That is interesting, those are all Laser Device instruments, apparently L3 Communications must have purchase Bushnell, I was under the assumption that ATK (Federal Ammo) had taken Burris over? Must not be the case....now I see that Beretta owns them?

 

[Afalex1]

I'm not a fan of the dbal-d2 because it blooms so much even at 100 yards. Of course, if it has the low power setting it is much better.

I am currently using a nvec vital 2 laser and a Luna optics IR light.

I think it is the best bang for the buck and versatile. Of course I would be happy trading the nvec for a uni max IR laser because the vital 2 is hard to find.

The Luna shines much farther than the torches and the dbals I have seen. And the nvec and uni Max don't bloom as much as the dbal.

These are my experiences from.using my gear and assisting clients with their gear on guided hunts. I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone's stuff. I am simply stating my opinion from in the field experiences as a night hog hunting guide.

YMMV

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Delta4-3]

That is interesting, those are all Laser Device instruments, apparently L3 Communications must have purchase Bushnell, I was under the assumption that ATK (Federal Ammo) had taken Burris over? Must not be the case....now I see that Beretta owns them?

I heard at SHOT that they OEM'ed certain products for them, maybe that is the case? There is no telling though, ownership/management of gun-related companies is getting really convoluted as of late!

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Clasky I never once used the word VTac mount you need to read what I posted. I purchased a ELR torch originally it shorted out and was replaced uned warranty. Victor personally called me and sent me the "new" style torch along with my old one. The pro was also given to me. The mounts failed this was two years ago I did not purchase the product they fell off the first hunt. I do not know if it was a vtac mount or the old mount. I have been a peace officer for 20+ years and a firearms instructor for 15 years. I use my equipment at work and for hunting fun every week. I know how to mount accessories. Maybe I got a Lemmon I cannot attest to that I can only state my experience and the facts. Now maybe you and victor should take some of your own advise stick to the facts and not speculate so much. I'm done with this thread if either of you wish to discuss it further you have my number. I'm not getting drug down to the personal attack conversations it benefits no one.

 

[I^2 Technologies - Peter]

Hey fellas, I'm new to the night vision game and have recently got my 1st setup. They're helmet mounted ANVIS and I absolutely love them. Main use is killing pigs & predators, most likely with an AR and an Eotech. Practiced a bit and feel comfy out to 75-100 yds.
So my 1st question is: will an illuminator or laser help out enough to drop some cash? I like the idea of just using a laser especially after 1st shot to pick up the runners but maybe an illuminator is more efficient?
2nd question is what brand of each is recommended? Don't wanna go all out and drop $1K, was thinking about $300-$400.
Any feedback is appreciated.

Since your trying not to break the bank, may I suggest, one of the Small Crimson Trace CMR 201 IR lasers that we have done our lowered output mod to? They are tiny little thing that works really well at the 12 O Clock position on a forard rail in front of a flip up sight.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...cmr-201-ir-rail-master-l-o-read-no-bloom.html




This is what the projected dot size of a class 1 .7 MW laser look like before...



This is what they look like after we lower the output.



and a quick shot at 90 yards



This will get you into the aiming game and with the projected dot having almost no bloom, the need for an Iluumniator will now be only ncesisary of your in an enviroment so dark that your goggles are having trouble seeing. If you need an IR illuminator we can set you up with the Luna LED illuminator that is adjustable in both beam size and intensity.

And a couple more things, Since your running ANVIS goggles and we are LOVE ANVIS goggles have you seen our mounting solutions?

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...unting-ground-helmets-all-ground-helmets.html






And Of course our Famous ANVIS Up Armor

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...067-teaser-pics-our-new-anvis-9-up-armor.html





Give us a call and we can help ya get sorted out!

Hope this helps

 

[Shireman]

Thanks for all the quick info fellas. Looks like I have a little research to do.

thanks again.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

For the civilian side, I use the Laser Devices DBAL I2 with a separate IR illuminator. I use the Laser devices SPIR or a surefire Vamire light. Vic's Torch Pro is a nice illuminator also. I have used it as several friends own them.

The Dbal D2 is another unit that I have killed a lot of pigs with. I like the fact that it has it all in one unit that is relatively compact . I don't like the fact that it does it all with one CR123 although that hasn't been a problem for me on any night hunt.


2012-2-15 [url]www.TexasgunTrust.com - Comparing the LDI DBAL D2, DBAL I2, SPIR and PEQ-2a in East Texas - YouTube[/url]

2012-2-18 [url]www.TexasGunTrust.com Comparing the LDI DBAL D2 and the Surefire, LLC Vampire Lights - YouTube[/url]

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

two more vidos:

2012-2-8 [url]www.TexasGunTrust.com Laser Devices, Inc. DBAL D2 - YouTube[/url]


2012-2-8 [url]www.TexasGunTrust.com Laser Devices, Inc. SPIR IR Illuminator - YouTube[/url]

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

2011-6-5 [url]www.TexasGunTrust.com - Comparison of Laser Devices Inc. Eye safe IR lasers - YouTube[/url]

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Nice videos Sean. Videos always help!

 

[MitchInOR]

I have been using the lasermax uni Ir laser for about two years. Its tiny (matchbox size) and has maintained zero for most of the two years. At first I had it mounted on the lower rail and It lost zero one hunt when I let it bounce on a UTV roll bar the whole night. After that I moved it topside just in front of the sight post and has been rock solid. Its a civilian class laser and is eye safe. It does not bloom the target but is quite visible for longer distances than you will be shooting with helmet mounted ANVIS and Is still visible with the brightest illuminators. Ive tried a lot of illuminators most are sitting in a box unused. I still have one ELR torch that I replaced the mount with scope rings, my other ELR Torch and Torch pro are somewhere in a soybean field because the mounts suck and come loose. For hunting the best I have used is the Luna Optics IR laser Its light, takes up very little rail space, has adjustable focus from flood to a pinpoint laser that you could call in airstrikes with, adjustable power from nothing to blinding, and push button or pressure pad on and off options.

The laser is great for when you surprise a hog or coyote. But I still prefer my optics for running hogs.

+1 on the Lasermax uni ir. You can find them for around $150 shipped. A pressure switch is about $45.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Clasky I never once used the word VTac mount you need to read what I posted. I purchased a ELR torch originally it shorted out and was replaced uned warranty. Victor personally called me and sent me the "new" style torch along with my old one. The pro was also given to me. The mounts failed this was two years ago I did not purchase the product they fell off the first hunt. I do not know if it was a vtac mount or the old mount. I have been a peace officer for 20+ years and a firearms instructor for 15 years. I use my equipment at work and for hunting fun every week. I know how to mount accessories. Maybe I got a Lemmon I cannot attest to that I can only state my experience and the facts. Now maybe you and victor should take some of your own advise stick to the facts and not speculate so much. I'm done with this thread if either of you wish to discuss it further you have my number. I'm not getting drug down to the personal attack conversations it benefits no one.

Remember you started this whole fiasco with your slanderous claims about our products suck. EVERYONE KNOWS OUR TNVC TORCH PRO ONLY COMES WITH THE V-TAC MOUNT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PLAY THE UNKNOWN GAME. WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'VE DONE HERE PERIOD ALONG WITH YOUR GANG OF THE THREE AMIGO'S. We've put up with enough slander and it stops here! That we can guarantee you. It starts.

Vic Di Cosola

 

[RobertB]

Womerns. Like a bunch or womerns LOL

 

[Victor-TNVC]

For folks looking to cut down the bloom on our D2's and DBAL-I2's. They BOTH have filters we offer here. Read below though on the DBAl-I2's and the latest versions from last year....

LDI Laser Neutral Density Filter ? Tactical Night Vision Company

Funny just a few years ago we told everyone who would listen those fancy high power restricted lasers were not the cats meow for this very reason. Now that the Class 1 systems are out, some folks are saying .7mw is blowing up tubes and blooming at long ranges as well, not the case. Remember the PAQ-4C's, they were also .7mW from the very onset. The DBAL-D2 and the DBAL-I2's (as of last year) ALSO have a low power .2mW feature. If one has an DBAL-I2 C1 without the lo feature enabled from LDI, just get the NDF and you're all set.

Vic

 

[Afalex1]

Remember you started this whole fiasco with your slanderous claims about our products suck. EVERYONE KNOWS OUR TNVC TORCH PRO ONLY COMES WITH THE V-TAC MOUNT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PLAY THE UNKNOWN GAME. WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'VE DONE HERE PERIOD ALONG WITH YOUR GANG OF THE THREE AMIGO'S. We've put up with enough slander and it stops here! That we can guarantee you. It starts.

Vic Di Cosola

I don't see how his claim is slanderous?? He had one of your lights with the mount that came with it. It failed while on a hunt. He feels it is not a quality mount because of this.

That isn't any different than if I came on here and said xyz sight sucks because it wont hold zero or ABC sling sucks because the buckle breaks easy (I'm not referring to anyone's products here just making this up). It is his personal experience with one of your mounts.

If it is the only one that has failed then good for TNVC and VTAC. The general public will see all the other good reviews and only this bad one and probably just look over it.

Every company will put out a lemon every now and then. Maybe Lawman got a lemon that slipped the quality control? It happens with any manufactured part in the world. No one is perfect.

What I'm really curious about is why all the personal attacks, threats, slander, accusations, etc when the point of this forum is help eachother through reviews and experiences.

If TNVC, VTAC, or any other manufacturer, dealer, or distributor can't take a negative review or two then get out of the business. Anyone who sells products or delivers a service WILL get a negative review or two during the life of the business. We all try are hardest to avoid it but it happens.

Persoannly attacking someone on a public forum does not make TNVC loom any better than it did after a single negative review. Now you just look like an angry owner of a company who can't take criticism and responds with personal attacks instead of solutions to the issue or facts of the situation.

I'm not normally one to get involved with all of this, but I hope all parties involved can see what I'm saying here and let this tit for tat battle go. After all, it isn't helping the OP's original question.

I forgot to ask... Who are the three amigos?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Victor-TNVC]

I don't see how his claim is slanderous?? He had one of your lights with the mount that came with it. It failed while on a hunt. He feels it is not a quality mount because of this.

That isn't any different than if I came on here and said xyz sight sucks because it wont hold zero or ABC sling sucks because the buckle breaks easy (I'm not referring to anyone's products here just making this up). It is his personal experience with one of your mounts.

If it is the only one that has failed then good for TNVC and VTAC. The general public will see all the other good reviews and only this bad one and probably just look over it.

Every company will put out a lemon every now and then. Maybe Lawman got a lemon that slipped the quality control? It happens with any manufactured part in the world. No one is perfect.

What I'm really curious about is why all the personal attacks, threats, slander, accusations, etc when the point of this forum is help eachother through reviews and experiences.

If TNVC, VTAC, or any other manufacturer, dealer, or distributor can't take a negative review or two then get out of the business. Anyone who sells products or delivers a service WILL get a negative review or two during the life of the business. We all try are hardest to avoid it but it happens.

Persoannly attacking someone on a public forum does not make TNVC loom any better than it did after a single negative review. Now you just look like an angry owner of a company who can't take criticism and responds with personal attacks instead of solutions to the issue or facts of the situation.

I'm not normally one to get involved with all of this, but I hope all parties involved can see what I'm saying here and let this tit for tat battle go. After all, it isn't helping the OP's original question.

I forgot to ask... Who are the three amigos?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2

And we know what relationship you have with the parties as well. Nuff said, we said our peace...No more of this will happen for ulterior motives. Just remember who attacked who to begin with period since you brought up the attacking word. This was more than just SIMPLE review, you have no idea this crap has been on-going with the same group period. They know EXACTLY who they are.

 

[djarecke]

What is the consensus - LDI SPIR or the Torch?


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[SkyPup]

LDI SPIR for long range over 500 meters, Torch Pro for 300-500 meters in my humble opinion:

 

[MarkCO]

And we know what relationship you have with the parties as well. Nuff said, we said our peace...No more of this will happen for ulterior motives. Just remember who attacked who to begin with period since you brought up the attacking word. This was more than just SIMPLE review, you have no idea this crap has been on-going with the same group period. They know EXACTLY who they are.

Even though I know a guy who work in your industry, I have no clue what the name of his company is nor who any of you guys bickering are. So from a guy who reads these kinds of topics to learn, it sure does not encourage me to seek out either side of this quarrel for product nor information. Just sayin'.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

The SPIR focuses out so it's useful at shorter distances also as does the d2.

Torch pro is a darned good unit. I have several members of our group that use them. We have had good experience with them and the mounts in the field.