LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cowboy, Frank and Phil, Pawprint was over on Sniper Central doing same crap. Think of him as Stupipedia or a future Super Ball, when you get tired and bounce him. He reads something and pretends its his.

His agenda will become painfully obvious over a few posts.

Cowboy, you really need to find his stuff on the Camp Perry Police Sniper Comps. I think Homeboy read about the "Police" Special classes and thought they had us there with our sniper gear. Then you might like him asking if "The Ultimate Sniper" was a good book? Just a ton of fun. </div></div>

I don't know his agenda but he has some things that need to be thought about when presenting the request/proposal for additional systems for your departments ie the justification. You need to have something to back you up and black and white talks. Having a rational explanation with charts and numbers that people can understand helps. Your "gut", "could", "maybe" and "because" doesn't sway many pocket books so I think there is a good take away from Paw which is about the only take away I'm getting from his writings. I know it pisses you guys off but I can see the writing on the wall as can most people that the budgets are getting tighter and things are going to get harder. I hope I'm wrong but with governments in the deficits I think that it is going to get really rough. Factor in removal of collective bargaining and the shift in that direction and many peoples voices for good or bad will become moot.

Just my .02 but you guys know this stuff already.

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> combat operations for over an decade, lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD, lots of lives could be lost if they are not properly prepared. </div></div>

Semper Fuck You you fucking POS..

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> combat operations for over an decade, lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD, lots of lives could be lost if they are not properly prepared. </div></div>

Semper Fuck You you fucking POS..

</div></div>
Relax!

There has been some instances of prior service soldiers getting stupid. In one I remember I believe two police officers were killed. You could probably find it on youtube.

Just like people owning firearms has a threat potential, all people have threat potential.

 

[Metonymy]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I do not have any LE Sniper Experience.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but I do have experience in spending money and paying taxes, gives me a dog in the fight.</div></div>

Wait...

... because you have a history of paying taxes, this makes you an expert on determining what equipment police snipers need to effectively do their job?

That's like someone saying "I know I'm not a carpenter, but I should have a say in how to build the new town hall because I pay taxes and have used a hammer before."

*facepalm*

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> combat operations for over an decade, lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD, lots of lives could be lost if they are not properly prepared. </div></div>

Semper Fuck You you fucking POS..

</div></div>

Bye James, I tolerated you flying under the radar but not anymore.

Please stay off Sniper's Hide you are not welcome, ever again.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The topic of justifying expenses is a good one. The problem with many agencies is the boots on the ground want one thing and the admin wants another. Our agency for example... We have a Safety Director who purchased 3 license plate readers that no one in the patrol division wanted. This was a huge expense and they don't work worth a damn. Now we pay $3000 a year in maintenance costs for the units. Go to the boots on the ground, specifically the trainers... My ammo budget has dropped a total of $15,000 in 3 years and our defensive tactics program is seriously lacking follow up training do to the lack of funds in the training budget.

The bottom line is agencies must make educated purchase. Wow, I think I went way off topic... Where were we??? Oh yeah Low light is a.....

 

[jeep505090]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw
"lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD,"

Sounds like there is some advocation in there for the growing idea that returning vets are trouble

 

[KG_mauserman]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

So at what point do you draw the line for law enforcement and what weapons they should have? I fully support the use of semi automatic .308 rifles, however I do not see the need or use of .50 cal rifles for Civilian PD's. Yes they can be used to knock out truck and airplane engines but that round has a high potential to either go through or deflect. They don't just magically stop once they hit their intended target. After four tours in Iraq as an 11b I've seen unintended consequences of warning shots from a .50 first hand several times.
However back to my question is there a line? Are their certain weapons that the PD should not have?
I will say that if it ever becomes acceptable for the ends to justify the means here in the US its time for me to leave.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The topic of justifying expenses is a good one. The problem with many agencies is the boots on the ground want one thing and the admin wants another. Our agency for example... We have a Safety Director who purchased 3 license plate readers that no one in the patrol division wanted. This was a huge expense and they don't work worth a damn. Now we pay $3000 a year in maintenance costs for the units. Go to the boots on the ground, specifically the trainers... My ammo budget has dropped a total of $15,000 in 3 years and our defensive tactics program is seriously lacking follow up training do to the lack of funds in the training budget.

The bottom line is agencies must make educated purchase. Wow, I think I went way off topic... Where were we??? Oh yeah Low light is a..... </div></div>

But are the boots on the ground listening to what their customers want? LE is after all ment to be a customer based service organization or that was at least the initial intent. I think you need to ask yourself what am I providing and how can I best do it? And then scale back from that since with how I suspect things are going to go you will be required to do more with less aka economy of force with all of the states suffering deficits (just a hunch).

I think the things LE need to work on to improve their position start with their IO (information operation) campeign aka what is your message and how are you trying to achieve it and is it the "right" message? Provide transperency and every encounter is an IO win or loss, ie you are either creating a friend or an enemy, supporter or detractor. Be a growing organization, adaptable and flexible as well as an organization of and for the people. I think if you work on these areas you will see more support which hopefully would garner in the future better equipment, greater co-operation etc etc. Of course this relies on "Joe" the voter and your interaction with him/her and how you can positively motivate him.

The polititions have to try and balance your wants versus those of the people who vote them into office or at least what they think those voters either want or "need". No politician wants to be the "soft" on crime guy/gal, it doesn't sell very well but on the other hand neither does a gestapo police force. How do you justify the needs, achieve balance and <span style="font-weight: bold">increase effectiveness</span>. It is arguable that more weapons systems with greater lethality will increases your daily effectiveness. Its your job to justify how said system will improve the organization, its "daily" effectiveness if you can and then work from there on implimentation.
My disclaimer, not being LE and only looking in from the outside I do not see a good trial and evaluation system so with that you might have one but I do not see it. What I wish you guys and gals had was an effective test bed/evaluation program that you could operate unilateraly to aid departments in standardization of systems (bulk is cheaper plus ability for inter and outer angency sharing of training and systems) would probably greatly benefit LE and help with providing justification as well as some ease on peoples minds in regards to liability. I understand no one area is a cooky cutter replica but it could help.

School me if I'm wrong.

Just my .02

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Stefan, on listening to customers for LE. We do as well as we can. You see its a case of dammed if you do and dammed if you dont. You have numbers on both sides of the fence when it comes to LE use of weapons.

I remember once a good friend of mine had to shoot a real bad guy. He is first on scene of armed robbery and runs into badguy before cover arrives. The usual no cooperation, reach for weapon and round dispatches badguy. While he has second bad guy at gun point, the first guys weapon is somehow taken. Now of course he had huge non [pro LE crowd when it happened and bad guys gun disappeared) so the community was up in arms about a cop shooting an unarmed '''' man. The robbery victim had run awat scared during shooting.

Of course a few weeks later when the victim of the armed robbery my buddy was dispatched to handle came forward and said the bad guy had a gun, no one ran the story.

So longer yet, the same week we had some poor lady kidnapped, beaten and shot/murdered in cold blood after they took all her money from ATM.

This lead up to an interesting community meeting, where half the crowd wanted the cops guns taken away for the shooting and the other half wanted the cops to turn the place into an armed camp to protect them.

Dammed if you take action and dammed if you dont.

We can not wait for events to go south before we plan for them to go south.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Dammed if you take action and dammed if you dont.

</div></div>

That sums up pretty much every LE debate.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw
"lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD,"

Sounds like there is some advocation in there for the growing idea that returning vets are trouble</div></div>

Please spar me the indignation acts...

it's nothing more than a fact, heck, the Hells Angels started as a group of returning WWII Veterans... and it has been acknowledged that Street Gangs have entered the military to use it as a training / proving ground. Recently a group of Former Rangers were engaged in a fight with Law Enforcement when they robbed a bank.

Grow up and get real, 10 years of combat, you think everyone who went was an angel.

Go gasp out loud somewhere else... or maybe try reading a paper once and a while.

 

[eleaf]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why is it the you feel LE must sit back and wait for something tragic to occur before taking steps to prepare for it? </div></div>

Because LE, being part of the state, has to justify <span style="font-weight: bold">EVERYTHING</span> to the citizens they serve. Not only that there is some tactical "need" (we all know that "need" can be created very easily), but also in the justification in tax dollars (is it worth purchasing a weapon when the need to replace said weapon before ever deploying it because it is outdated or in ill repair or what have you is the most likely outcome?). The police is not some private citizen minding his own business going and shooting paper at the range without the need to justify his purchases; the police is a representative of the state and needs to justify every action, every purchase, and every tactic to the public they serve. Every. Single. One.

And that justification needs to make sense, both fiscally and professionally. We can perhaps point out a small handful of situations nationwide over the last 4 or 5 decades where a 50 BMG <span style="font-weight: bold">MIGHT</span> have been a useful tool; that doesn't justify the NEED for one anywhere. Because it's not just the purchasing of a weapon that has questionable uses in a given context, but that we also have to pay for the proper analysis that goes in to making a choice on weapon system, making sure said weapon system has the right ammunition for the situation, initial and follow up training in order to use said weapon system, and all for something that will very likely NEVER be used in any context whatsoever other than some cop bragging about how his department just got a 50 cal to some other cop in some other department. This is America, not the Congo.

Simply put, just as I'm prepared to take some risk and live without books and books of federal regulations dictating the minutiae of virtually every aspect of my life from the deodorant I use to the food I eat, I'm prepared to live in a world where my police department has a need for a 50 cal, but doesn't have one, because I live in the real world where the chances of ever needing one are virtually nil, not some LE fantasy world where everyone is a bad guy just waiting for his time.

My job is not to acquiesce to whatever you say you need, but to do an analysis and make my own decisions about your needs based on the situation on the ground. I don't buy the "better to have and not need than need and not have" argument because there is far too much latitude to be had for pure douchebaggery, both fiscal and professional. Where does that road end? How quickly before the argument for attack helicopters or explosive munitions would be made "just in case"?

 

[BCP]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The topic of justifying expenses is a good one. The problem with many agencies is the boots on the ground want one thing and the admin wants another.</div></div>

A buddy of mine is a LEO in a dept here in Cali and he is a liaison of sorts between those two camps. He worked in the private sector as middle management for several years before becoming a cop and is very organized and a people person. He handles all their purchasing and organizes all their training and is also very much a firearms enthusiast. They have no problems getting what they need. Not every dept has a guy like that though.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stefan, on listening to customers for LE. We do as well as we can. You see its a case of dammed if you do and dammed if you dont. You have numbers on both sides of the fence when it comes to LE use of weapons.

I remember once a good friend of mine had to shoot a real bad guy. He is first on scene of armed robbery and runs into badguy before cover arrives. The usual no cooperation, reach for weapon and round dispatches badguy. While he has second bad guy at gun point, the first guys weapon is somehow taken. Now of course he had huge non [pro LE crowd when it happened and bad guys gun disappeared) so the community was up in arms about a cop shooting an unarmed '''' man. The robbery victim had run awat scared during shooting.

Of course a few weeks later when the victim of the armed robbery my buddy was dispatched to handle came forward and said the bad guy had a gun, no one ran the story.

So longer yet, the same week we had some poor lady kidnapped, beaten and shot/murdered in cold blood after they took all her money from ATM.

This lead up to an interesting community meeting, where half the crowd wanted the cops guns taken away for the shooting and the other half wanted the cops to turn the place into an armed camp to protect them.

Dammed if you take action and dammed if you dont.

We can not wait for events to go south before we plan for them to go south. </div></div>

Agreed! The Army is actualy trying to encourage community engagements to help re-establish relations with the general public with less than 1% of US populace serving there isn't as much contact and understanding as we would like.

With what you wrote comes your IO campeign and transparency. The people have to trust that you are always telling them the truth and if there is a mistake or violation made that corrective training and/or effective punishment will be utilized. There are many aspects to this problem of LE trust (which goes both ways) and LE's role in society. The military has screwed up quite a few things and done quite a few things correctly. I would analyze the leasons learned and work from there.

About getting the truth into the media? You might need to work on relations with them and with that you probably need to give them both the good and the bad for them to play ball but then that provides transparency.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About getting the truth into the media? You might need to work on relations with them and with that you probably need to give them both the good and the bad for them to play ball but then that provides transparency. </div></div>

Never happens. The media runs what is in line with their agenda. We see it time and time again here. They are privy to all the arrests we make (public information) and they recover the reports every day. Only the reports that are "sensational" or "inflammatory" make it to the public. The news wants ratings. They are generally not interested in an even handed representation of reality.

 

[hank440]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

AMEN to Lonewolf, I too have seen the reporters lie many times to spice up the story for ratings

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
--Frank Outlaw
"lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, If that is turned against the average PD,"

Sounds like there is some advocation in there for the growing idea that returning vets are trouble</div></div>

Please spar me the indignation acts...

it's nothing more than a fact, heck, the Hells Angels started as a group of returning WWII Veterans... and it has been acknowledged that Street Gangs have entered the military to use it as a training / proving ground. Recently a group of Former Rangers were engaged in a fight with Law Enforcement when they robbed a bank.

Grow up and get real, 10 years of combat, you think everyone who went was an angel.

Go gasp out loud somewhere else... or maybe try reading a paper once and a while. </div></div>

So your focus is on less than 1% of the population? Stereotyping is not very cool.
The bank is old news and a rarity. How about the Ranger Squad that took down the drug house because they (the gang banger criminals) threatened one of the Ranger Batt guys? LE couldn't help them but there was a blind eye turned in that event RLTW BTW.
There was that sting at 5th RTB which was more recent.

You see a group of people as a threat as does certain groups of people who see the LE organization as a threat to basic rights and freedoms. Dangerous game "us versus them, them vs us" which further alienates an already lacking support base. You can see it in this thread and on many issues. Google "corrupt police" and tell me what people seem to think of the proffession? I know better. I have friends who are LE and retired LE, great people but their stories are not told! I think if the public knew what some of these guys did they would think differently!

Either way, you will have a hard time gaining trust until LE opens up and does some house cleaning. The thin blue line needs to go away and establish a partnership with the populace versus a combatant policy or policy of silence. Till then your going to continue to have problems and suffer from lack of faith.

I guess endstate of this is that a comment like such does not help you in any way to further your goals. It does alienate you further.

Just my .02

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About getting the truth into the media? You might need to work on relations with them and with that you probably need to give them both the good and the bad for them to play ball but then that provides transparency. </div></div>

Never happens. The media runs what is in line with their agenda. We see it time and time again here. They are privy to all the arrests we make (public information) and they recover the reports every day. Only the reports that are "sensational" or "inflammatory" make it to the public. The news wants ratings. They are generally not interested in an even handed representation of reality. </div></div>

Same problem we are dealing with! We are getting better at it but we have a better ability to establish a joined voice as opposed to individual LE orgs.

I know there are universal LE orgs and for you as for us saw unprecidented support after 9/11 which quickly drained away.

Maybe take some media on training operations, demonstrate how certain systems could better assist you in achieving desired effects on bad guys and make it glitzy. When is the last time someone from your organizations met with the media or brought the media to your office to have a round table on how "you" can better assist the media? The challenge is in the sale. You catch more flies with honey.

I understand that this "only sounds good" in theory but it has longer reaching generational implications if successful which could be beneficial if done correctly. This is not a one day fix and it will never solve all the media asshats out there.

I'm of course way off topic! Sorry for that!

 

[jeep505090]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

No shock or gasp as to those who don't fit the model returning veteran, so what if the hells angels were returning vets, does that mean every vet now is in a motorcylce gange?, generalizations are dangerous and you of all should know that, so does every shit bag marine reflect the marine corps? So some one who joined for real world "training" out of a gang is gonna do 2-3 tours in some shit hole country just for "training" or to prove themselves? Im not saying it hasnt happend but i highly doubt it. This has taken a new turn and as to not derail the thread any futher should this be started in a new forum ?

 

[smokshwn]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About getting the truth into the media? You might need to work on relations with them and with that you probably need to give them both the good and the bad for them to play ball but then that provides transparency. </div></div>

Never happens. The media runs what is in line with their agenda. We see it time and time again here. They are privy to all the arrests we make (public information) and they recover the reports every day. Only the reports that are "sensational" or "inflammatory" make it to the public. The news wants ratings. They are generally not interested in an even handed representation of reality. </div></div>

"Great peril lies in the notion that you can negotiate with evil"

People like to assume that somehow or other the truth matters to the media. With the exception of very few cases it doesn't. They have an agenda, and unfortunately an insatiable desire, ability and will to push it.

This is further muddled by the consumers of media. We would like to think that education and transparency can change misperception of the populace (good or bad) with respect to LE and Military. Although most consumers state they want the truth, time and again focus groups and studies show they have near zero desire to be educated with the truth. Rather they much prefer to have their biases reaffirmed and further propagated.

Sad situation really but the fact remains that the media/public is a very dangerous animal, and to think you can control or train it, you are in for a rough ride.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Stefan, we agree on winning hearts and minds far more than you think. I worked for the community for several decades and had to answer to the communities I worked in for every single action. Most larger agencies have civilian review boards to address shootings, policy,, citizen complaints and needed equipment. In LE it was started back in 1960s and efforts have been good, then bad, good then bad, ever since then in a cyclic type of thing. Its all about funding.

If anyone thinks we dream up a need for equipment and get it they are off base. I was unlucky enough to have to write purchase requests for a department far more than I wanted. It is a PIA and has to be justified many many times. The idea we just say give me a tank and it appears like a bad insurance commercial is way way off.

If anyone thinks we go on a drug raid with a sniper set up on a condo with a 50 bmg, your sadly mistaken.

Lets get into the cost thing. Let me ask a question? How many communities have walking beats where a cop just walks the beat? I did it in a non pro le town for awhile. I got to know everyone on the beat but here is the rub. That is by far the most expensive type of policing around. Its used where the community demands it but highly ineffective by modern standards. We call that "Feel Good Policing" We do it but it could be considered a waste of taxpayers money.

Now forgive me a bit since I retired in 2005 from LE, but I sure purchased a shit load of SWAT Equipment on drug seizure money, so tax payers did not get hit for alot. Cowboy is that still true? Seemd right, the guys going through the drug doors where they could get an extra hole in them used money from the seizures to defend themselves.

So worrying if we should "Waste" taxpayers money on a semi auto seems a bit weak to me. If the agency needs it they should have it and train men to use it. Not exactly rocket science to shoot an SR25/AR10

On working with media. They want stories that sell. They dont care about the truth. I worked Detectives for about seven years and had to deal with media far more than I wanted. It was sometimes I will give you info on this incident if you run this story to help me find the bad guy in that one. Sad but true.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
About getting the truth into the media? You might need to work on relations with them and with that you probably need to give them both the good and the bad for them to play ball but then that provides transparency. </div></div>

Never happens. The media runs what is in line with their agenda. We see it time and time again here. They are privy to all the arrests we make (public information) and they recover the reports every day. Only the reports that are "sensational" or "inflammatory" make it to the public. The news wants ratings. They are generally not interested in an even handed representation of reality. </div></div>

"Great peril lies in the notion that you can negotiate with evil"

People like to assume that somehow or other the truth matters to the media. With the exception of very few cases it doesn't. They have an agenda, and unfortunately an insatiable desire, ability and will to push it.

This is further muddled by the consumers of media. We would like to think that education and transparency can change misperception of the populace (good or bad) with respect to LE and Military. Although most consumers state they want the truth, time and again focus groups and studies show they have near zero desire to be educated with the truth. Rather they much prefer to have their biases reaffirmed and further propagated.

Sad situation really but the fact remains that the media/public is a very dangerous animal, and to think you can control or train it, you are in for a rough ride.

</div></div>

Which populace are you speaking of? The voting populace or the nonparticipatory?
You can either try or give up. If you give up then how about just going home because your worthless.
If something doesn't work then re-evaluate your problem maybe you identified the incorrect problem? If you identified the correct problem then re-focus your efforts to another possible solution or technique. Try utilizing red teams (the annoying guys who always counter your ideas) etc etc etc.

I think the difficulty is really evaluating your effectiveness with so many external factors involved. It is difficult to really guage if you are having a positive effect and much more difficult to get quick effects versus long term effects.

The "evil" you discuse is the media which is dangerous as that message is easily relayed to the public. You have an audience!
How about utilizing a social media site for updates and issues within your communities? Address reasonable compliants on there and at least show some apparent sincerity. It might help.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stefan, we agree on winning hearts and minds far more than you think. I worked for the community for several decades and had to answer to the communities I worked in for every single action. Most larger agencies have civilian review boards to address shootings, policy,, citizen complaints and needed equipment. In LE it was started back in 1960s and efforts have been good, then bad, good then bad, ever since then in a cyclic type of thing. Its all about funding.

If anyone thinks we dream up a need for equipment and get it they are off base. I was unlucky enough to have to write purchase requests for a department far more than I wanted. It is a PIA and has to be justified many many times. The idea we just say give me a tank and it appears like a bad insurance commercial is way way off.

If anyone thinks we go on a drug raid with a sniper set up on a condo with a 50 bmg, your sadly mistaken.

Lets get into the cost thing. Let me ask a question? How many communities have walking beats where a cop just walks the beat? I did it in a non pro le town for awhile. I got to know everyone on the beat but here is the rub. That is by far the most expensive type of policing around. Its used where the community demands it but highly ineffective by modern standards. We call that "Feel Good Policing" We do it but it could be considered a waste of taxpayers money.

Now forgive me a bit since I retired in 2005 from LE, but I sure purchased a shit load of SWAT Equipment on drug seizure money, so tax payers did not get hit for alot. Cowboy is that still true? Seemd right, the guys going through the drug doors where they could get an extra hole in them used money from the seizures to defend themselves.

So worrying if we should "Waste" taxpayers money on a semi auto seems a bit weak to me. If the agency needs it they should have it and train men to use it. Not exactly rocket science to shoot an SR25/AR10

On working with media. They want stories that sell. They dont care about the truth. I worked Detectives for about seven years and had to deal with media far more than I wanted. It was sometimes I will give you info on this incident if you run this story to help me find the bad guy in that one. Sad but true.


</div></div>

Thanks for your insites!

Sad about the problems, we have the same issues. Just on MSM today there is a big headline about it and "Der Spiegel".

The walking beat seems strange to me. I would have thought that it would provide an excellent medium to establish community relations and improve trust and support? With that of course come the human intelligence that can be gained about the locals in the area or nearby areas.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

WOW this went South quick. 1 Cowboy Bravo is good to go and legit, 2 Taxes have nothing to do with tactics and which rifle is a better option for law enforcement. 3 As Lone Wolf and a couple of others have stated me being one of them. We are the first to get shit for not being able to do the job or for things to go bad quick because we tried to get the gear to do the job and was told no by some one who only read 1 or 2 reports and has never had any time in the job for which they are making a decision, then its off with our heads, then holly shit batman we have what we needed to begin with that could have kept it from happening. Then we sit back and morn the loss of our comrads who were shot up, or see the family members of the victim who we could have saved if we were listend to and had the gear to begin with. 4 Yes it is better to have and not need and to need and not have, within a serious of checks and balances to keep it from going to the extreme. Thats why those in charge need to listen to the guys in the shit.5 Yes law enforcement needs to have better mouse traps even if it appears that we are becoming a militarized orginization. Guess what, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights that we swore to uphold keeps things in check.6. Yes there is the probability for anyone to use good training for bad things, need I remind yall of Timothy McVeigh(? on spelling) former military went nuttier than squirrle shit on a walnut tree and how many innocent women and children did he kill in Ok. City. The only thing that keeps those safe at night are those willing to do violence on thier behalf, but with our hands tied and blindfolded. Those of you who have no law enforcement background, go on a ride-along sometime if you can,or go through a citizens police academy. You want batter understanding of what we do, no better way then sit in the fron seat of a Police Car next to an officer.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto


Thanks for your insites!

Sad about the problems, we have the same issues. Just on MSM today there is a big headline about it and "Der Spiegel".

The walking beat seems strange to me. I would have thought that it would provide an excellent medium to establish community relations and improve trust and support? With that of course come the human intelligence that can be gained about the locals in the area or nearby areas. [/quote]


Yes it does exactly what you say and is a good way to police heavily poplated urban cities but the problem is how litte ground can be covered by walking beat.They can not respond to off beat calls, which happens everyday, every shift around the country. Then you have to provide prisoner transport for walking beat officers when they make arrests. they can not go to outside beat cover calls very well, so it just gets expensive to have them. I once heard an upper level LE refer to the walking beats as "Feel Good Policing"

One modification many cities have done is to get officers to park vehicle during slow call for service times ( That never happens in Sinister Brothers Department, they are usually backed up a 100 calls or more at any given time) and walk areas, keeping vehicle no more than a few blocks away. That provides some of the good things without killing response times too badly.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

All you missed the point of context, if the guy is gonna quote averages, there are always exception to the rule, which you fail to understand is my point, and dumbing down the LE community because of budgetary concerns has a way of biting people in the ass... it wasn't meant to be condemnation on veterans, but a real wold concern that averages don't tell the whole story, but instead you all want to cry foul because it was even mentioned.

My eyes are clearly rolled because you few decided to jump on one line... out of context of course.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Frank, I never took what you said in a bad way. During my time I saw lots of folks go off deep end That included both former LE and Military, just like everyone else can, including Doctors, Lawyers, Accountaints, Car Salesmen you name it. Who knows what causes what it just happends sometimes and is very sad.

Joe Blow with no training goes off its bad but when a trained guy goes off its real bad. Thankfully its the less than one tenth of a percent or we would just plain be fucked.

This is not bad against the Military or LE, its just any mind can break and bad things can happen. We have to be prepared. If we go back just a couple of years we can most recall the LA Shoot Out where the guys wearing Body Armor did a bank robbery, with AKs. They tore up LE bad for longer than they should have. If that happened today it would probably not go on so long but we lost LE lives to learn that lesson. How about we tarin and plan for worse and hope for best?

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you missed the point of context, if the guy is gonna quote averages, there are always exception to the rule, which you fail to understand is my point, and dumbing down the LE community because of budgetary concerns has a way of biting people in the ass... it wasn't meant to be condemnation on veterans, but a real wold concern that averages don't tell the whole story, but instead you all want to cry foul because it was even mentioned.

My eyes are clearly rolled because you few decided to jump on one line... out of context of course. </div></div>

The problem with the internet is and has always been conveyance of ones point.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Which populace are you speaking of? The voting populace or the nonparticipatory?
You can either try or give up. If you give up then how about just going home because your worthless.
If something doesn't work then re-evaluate your problem maybe you identified the incorrect problem? If you identified the correct problem then re-focus your efforts to another possible solution or technique. Try utilizing red teams (the annoying guys who always counter your ideas) etc etc etc.

I think the difficulty is really evaluating your effectiveness with so many external factors involved. It is difficult to really guage if you are having a positive effect and much more difficult to get quick effects versus long term effects.

The "evil" you discuse is the media which is dangerous as that message is easily relayed to the public. You have an audience!
How about utilizing a social media site for updates and issues within your communities? Address reasonable compliants on there and at least show some apparent sincerity. It might help. </div></div>

If you are going to insult me and call me worthless, take the time to learn the difference between your and you're.

As to the populace, I am speaking of the public in general as media consumers. They do not consume media with the intent of learning anything. By a very large margin it is consumed as entertainment, and very few are entertained by being told their beliefs are false.

You mention that if something is not working try a different path. I agree with that whole heartedly. My experience has taught me many times over that thinking that a media relationship can be controlled or managed to your benefit is a very dangerous proposition. Further a much better course of action is to treat the media respectfully, honestly, and conduct your affairs with them professionally. As LW pointed out there are several more effective means of introducing public transparency to an agency through review boards etc.

If you can't adequately assess your effectiveness and progress or lack thereof, it is very difficult to justify that particular course of action.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Which populace are you speaking of? The voting populace or the nonparticipatory?
You can either try or give up. If you give up then how about just going home because your worthless.
If something doesn't work then re-evaluate your problem maybe you identified the incorrect problem? If you identified the correct problem then re-focus your efforts to another possible solution or technique. Try utilizing red teams (the annoying guys who always counter your ideas) etc etc etc.

I think the difficulty is really evaluating your effectiveness with so many external factors involved. It is difficult to really guage if you are having a positive effect and much more difficult to get quick effects versus long term effects.

The "evil" you discuse is the media which is dangerous as that message is easily relayed to the public. You have an audience!
How about utilizing a social media site for updates and issues within your communities? Address reasonable compliants on there and at least show some apparent sincerity. It might help. </div></div>

If you are going to insult me and call me worthless, take the time to learn the difference between your and you're.

As to the populace, I am speaking of the public in general as media consumers. They do not consume media with the intent of learning anything. By a very large margin it is consumed as entertainment, and very few are entertained by being told their beliefs are false.

You mention that if something is not working try a different path. I agree with that whole heartedly. My experience has taught me many times over that thinking that a media relationship can be controlled or managed to your benefit is a very dangerous proposition. <span style="font-weight: bold">Further a much better course of action is to treat the media respectfully, honestly, and conduct your affairs with them professionally.</span> As LW pointed out there are several more effective means of introducing public transparency to an agency through review boards etc.

If you can't adequately assess your effectiveness and progress or lack thereof, it is very difficult to justify that particular course of action.



</div></div>

Not trying to insult you, unless you are a worthless dirtbag who is just sucking up a paycheck. If you are then take my comment to heart and if not then it obviously doesn't apply to you.

I got excited when I read your section which I highlighted in bold! I think that is on the money!! You, like the military just doesn't advertise this very well which is where we might need to try and give a little push.
I like seeing the good news stories and the good things our brave Americans are doing both both at home and abroad! I am your consumer, I talk and I write and that helps to get the story around, your story and mine!

The hard part as with the military is that people don't get to see everything with the review boards. It is not swift and people do not always, if ever see results.

Thanks for the spelling lesson, not that it was needed. Editing should be something I do more.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Lowlight is correct that totality of circumstance must be heeded with due reguard and to watch out for the wolves in sheeps clothing, it happens.We also see it in Law Enforcement, counter intelligence.LEO's have to becareful of what we tell and show people due to the hidden agendas of gang members and other criminal who would purport themselves to be honest law abiding tax paying citizens.Then use what intel they are able to gather to assit in carring out thier various criminal acts. All the more reason why we as law enforcement need to plan for worse and hope for the best and be ready for the various threats that occur.
SO how many of you are using a semi-auto platform vs. bolt.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I think one of the big problems is perception.

You can't compare weapons systems to snowplows.

If a city doesn't buy enough snowplows and a blizzard hits, then with a few exceptions its mostly the bottom line that takes a hit.

If a city doesn't buy enough or the correct weapons systems for it's officers and they have a situation that warrants the use of deadly force, then they may have some body bags to fill. I have a problem with innocents dying because the pencil pushers didn't want to fork over the cash. That doesn't mean everyone is rocking AIAW's or M82's. However I have seen enough fellow LE Snipers show up at classes with soup sandwich rifles to pray that a citizens life never relies on them.

I will say that in MY situation in a mid sized city, I don't feel that a semi-auto rifle offers any meaningful advantage over my AE MkII. I feel that they COULD have an advantage over our LTR's because they are not mag fed and take longer to load (not re-load), change ammo, etc. I like the fact I can grab the rifle, slap in a magazine and roll. As I have told others, if I am on a call out and I have to expend 10 rounds of .308, the world is coming to an end. However I still carry 40 more rounds in my ruck. Better to have and not need.

Again, if your agency is set on everything else and you have the budget for a top-end gas gun then go for it. If you have to compromise with optics, training, etc. to pay for it then stick with a good bolt gun.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Now on the matter of returning Military.

I am proud former military. I work with quite a few proud military veterans. It's just common sense that if you are responding to a crime possibly committed by a person who has been professionally trained in the use of combat weapons, that it's a higher risk than if it was your average citizen. It's the same when you are dealing with cops who have gone astray.

That doesn't mean vets are more likely to commit crimes. It just means that when the wife who just got the shit kicked out of her tells my dispatcher that her husband was Marine Recon back from Afghanistan with PTSD and she doesn't know if he still has his rifle in the closet......well lets just say I ain't going to just walk up and knock on the door.

It is something we see. It sucks. We have to deal with it. To deny it means we will fill body bags.

 

[ksp 498]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I work for a state police agency. We have a .50 for the purposes Lowlight spoke off. It is not really for engaging people, but armored vehicles like the bull dozer in Colorado. If someone stole a armored car, or armored a vehicle, then a .308 won't do anything but chip the paint. Last week we shot a car with the .50. The .50 will stop about any vehicle. We also shoot military armor with a .50. Hornady 750gr AMAX was stopped by it, Summit AP was not. Seeing how we are the only full time team in the state we have a purpose for the rifle. We did not pay for the rifle, it was a forfeiture. Luckly we have never had to deploy it. However better to have it and need it, then spit .308 at it all day. As far as semi autos go, since this is why this forum was created. We currently use a custom .308 bolt gun. We would like to have semi auto .308, but at this time it is not possible. One thing that we do, however have is a intermediate rifle. We run a small team, because of man power issues, thoughtout the state. He have a semi/full auto 14.5 inch carbine. We attached a Leupold Mark 4, and then piggyback a Trijicon RMR on top. Along with a surefire scout light and bipod. Groups size 1 1/2 MOA at 100yds. This is partly due to poor select fire trigger. This is not a true sniper rifle....I know. However it has given us to run one gun for almost everything. We have all agreed that a hostage rescue shot is out of the question. However we can engage targets from 5 yards to 500 yards with one rifle. If it was a lone barricaded subject, I use this rifle. In the woods on a surviellance we use this guns. Overall this is a great gun for what we do. Hope this helps.

P.S. An earlier post said that police are becoming the military. Watch Fox News or CNN, everyday police officers are getting killed or shot at in every part of this country. Law Enforcement deaths are already up this year. Forgive us for trying to be better trained and better equipped.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now on the matter of returning Military.

I am proud former military. I work with quite a few proud military veterans. It's just common sense that if you are responding to a crime possibly committed by a person who has been professionally trained in the use of combat weapons, that it's a higher risk than if it was your average citizen. It's the same when you are dealing with cops who have gone astray.

That doesn't mean vets are more likely to commit crimes. It just means that when the wife who just got the shit kicked out of her tells my dispatcher that her husband was Marine Recon back from Afghanistan with PTSD and she doesn't know if he still has his rifle in the closet......well lets just say I ain't going to just walk up and knock on the door.

It is something we see. It sucks. We have to deal with it. To deny it means we will fill body bags. </div></div>

Your right.

 

[eleaf]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ksp 498</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I work for a state police agency. We have a .50 for the purposes Lowlight spoke off. It is not really for engaging people, but armored vehicles like the bull dozer in Colorado. If someone stole a armored car, or armored a vehicle, then a .308 won't do anything but chip the paint. Last week we shot a car with the .50. The .50 will stop about any vehicle. We also shoot military armor with a .50. Hornady 750gr AMAX was stopped by it, Summit AP was not. Seeing how we are the only full time team in the state we have a purpose for the rifle. We did not pay for the rifle, it was a forfeiture. Luckly we have never had to deploy it. However better to have it and need it, then spit .308 at it all day. As far as semi autos go, since this is why this forum was created. We currently use a custom .308 bolt gun. We would like to have semi auto .308, but at this time it is not possible. One thing that we do, however have is a intermediate rifle. We run a small team, because of man power issues, thoughtout the state. He have a semi/full auto 14.5 inch carbine. We attached a Leupold Mark 4, and then piggyback a Trijicon RMR on top. Along with a surefire scout light and bipod. Groups size 1 1/2 MOA at 100yds. This is partly due to poor select fire trigger. This is not a true sniper rifle....I know. However it has given us to run one gun for almost everything. We have all agreed that a hostage rescue shot is out of the question. However we can engage targets from 5 yards to 500 yards with one rifle. If it was a lone barricaded subject, I use this rifle. In the woods on a surviellance we use this guns. Overall this is a great gun for what we do. Hope this helps.</div></div>

You work for a <span style="font-weight: bold">STATE</span> police agency; just the kind of agency that SHOULD be equipped with such weapons. Do you think that Georgetown needs one? Or Paris? Or Cynthiana? Or even Lexington?

Probably not given that past behaviors are the best indicators of future behaviors.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">P.S. An earlier post said that police are becoming the military. Watch Fox News or CNN, everyday police officers are getting killed or shot at in every part of this country. Law Enforcement deaths are already up this year. Forgive us for trying to be better trained and better equipped. </div></div>

This is simply flat-out false, and you should know it.

2009 saw fewer LEO deaths than any year in the last 50. 2008 was ANOTHER record year for FEWEST LEO deaths. Even 2010, where there was a dramatic rise over 2009, saw fewer LEO deaths than ANY year during the 1970s, and even then only 59 of the 160 LEO deaths by shooting were in shootouts; the rest were accidental shootings. That's about 1 officer killed nationwide every 6 days because of a shootout. Hardly the work of out of control criminal gangs armed to the teeth hell-bent on cop killing (especially when you consider that the vast majority of those shootings were 1) with handguns, and 2) doing something other than apprehending a suspect at a dangerous crime (most are at domestic disturbance calls or traffic stops), and hardly a justification for arming yourselves as if you were in Afghanistan.

Can we stop with the whole criminals are arming themselves with TEH GUNZZZ argument? The statistics on what really happens simply don't bear it out.

 

[heitmann45]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

[/quote] 2009 saw fewer LEO deaths than any year in the last 50. 2008 was ANOTHER record year for FEWEST LEO deaths. Even 2010, where there was a dramatic rise over 2009, saw fewer LEO deaths than ANY year during the 1970s, and even then only 59 of the 160 LEO deaths by shooting were in shootouts; the rest were accidental shootings. That's about 1 officer killed nationwide every 6 days because of a shootout. Hardly the work of out of control criminal gangs armed to the teeth hell-bent on cop killing (especially when you consider that the vast majority of those shootings were 1) with handguns, and 2) doing something other than apprehending a suspect at a dangerous crime (most are at domestic disturbance calls or traffic stops), and hardly a justification for arming yourselves as if you were in Afghanistan.

Can we stop with the whole criminals are arming themselves with TEH GUNZZZ argument? The statistics on what really happens simply don't bear it out.[/quote]

I take it this guy has never been shot at.

You may be right that there are less deaths. That doesn't really mean anything. Do I feel safer out there because there were more deaths 50 years ago, hell no. "Only 160 have been killed by guns this year, so I'll be fine tonight." Give me a break. I don't care if there have been 160 or 2 million, I only have one to loose. I've been shot at both here in the states and in Iraq when I was in the Marines, neither one is less scary than the other.

And your comment on gangs with guns. There are tons, we get guns off the street on almost a daily basis. Most are guns I wouldn't care to own. Some are automatic AK's, Tech 9, etc. Just because I don't like the gun or think it's junk doesn't mean it's not going to kill me. If I know for a fact that the people in the building I'm about to make entry on have a weapon (.25 auto to .50 bmg) my goal is to be in my entry gear with my automatic AR and lots of ammo. Hopefully I won't fire a shot, but I'd be dumb to not be ready for anything.

We have bolt guns on the team and will be ordering new POF .308's in the near future. I'm sorry if that offends you.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is simply flat-out false, and you should know it.

2009 saw fewer LEO deaths than any year in the last 50. 2008 was ANOTHER record year for FEWEST LEO deaths. Even 2010, where there was a dramatic rise over 2009, saw fewer LEO deaths than ANY year during the 1970s, and even then only 59 of the 160 LEO deaths by shooting were in shootouts; the rest were accidental shootings. That's about 1 officer killed nationwide every 6 days because of a shootout. Hardly the work of out of control criminal gangs armed to the teeth hell-bent on cop killing (especially when you consider that the vast majority of those shootings were 1) with handguns, and 2) doing something other than apprehending a suspect at a dangerous crime (most are at domestic disturbance calls or traffic stops), and hardly a justification for arming yourselves as if you were in Afghanistan.

Can we stop with the whole criminals are arming themselves with TEH GUNZZZ argument? The statistics on what really happens simply don't bear it out. </div></div>

I think a pretty fair argument could be made that a reduction officer death's is a result of training and properly equipping officers combined with better quality medical care and not a reduction in felonious assaults on police officers.

Here are the numbers of assaults & murders from 1996 - 2009:

Year Assaulted Killed
1996 46500 100
1997 49151 65
1998 59545 61
1999 55026 42
2000 56054 51
2001 56666 71 (Not counting the 9/11 attacks)
2002 58066 56
2003 57841 52
2004 59373 57
2005 57546 55
2006 58634 48
2007 59201 57
2008 58792 41
2009 57268 48

I don't believe the argument about officers being killed has much bearing on the argument for or against the weapons being discussed in this thread. The vast majority of the time, an officers sidearm and his proficiency with it has a much larger impact on his survival during an assault. The handgun is the primary weapon and typically the one the officer has access to when assaulted. Patrol rifles, sniper rifles or rifles/SMG's used by tactical teams are typically employed as an offensive tool rather than defensive.

The first thing I was taught when I went through the selection process to get onto our team was that our number one mission, our first priority, was the preservation of life, always. We don't use automatic weapons or sniper rifles against John Q citizen. They are brought out when a person has already displayed a willingness to inflict or past propensity of inflicting seriously bodily harm or death to an innocent person be they citizen or police officer.

We don't have officers patrolling the streets, making traffic stops or responding to domestic disturbances armed with automatic rifles or sniper rifles. They are brought out when traditional law enforcement procedures have been exhausted and proven ineffective. The penny pinchers will always say there is not a need for a particular piece of equipment until that need arises, then it becomes a priority. Attempting to stay ahead of the game is always challenging for many reasons, money being one of the largest. As stated earlier in the thread we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably not given that past behaviors are the best indicators of future behaviors.
</div></div>

eleaf, Really? That phrase was coined by Lou Alder and it pertains to individual human behaviors. Like a kid that steals through out his childhood will continue to steal when he is an adult.

What about criminal evolution? This is a simple fact that criminals get smarter and step up their game. This is why we see more criminals using long guns, explosives, body armor and technology to be better at what they do.

Where do you draw a line and say certain LE should have access to this but not this, and so on. The fact is the 50 is a tool. If used correctly it will save lives and property. If used incorrectly it will cost lives and property. I can tell you we (my county team) need a 50. We have never needed it but the day will come. Much like an armored vehicle, we never needed one until recently and luckily no one was killed. No we have one and chances are we may not really need it for several years but when we do lives and property will be saved.

 

[eleaf]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We don't use automatic weapons or sniper rifles against John Q citizen. They are brought out when a person has already displayed a willingness to inflict or past propensity of inflicting seriously bodily harm or death to an innocent person be they citizen or police officer.

We don't have officers patrolling the streets, making traffic stops or responding to domestic disturbances armed with automatic rifles or sniper rifles. They are brought out when traditional law enforcement procedures have been exhausted and proven ineffective. </div></div>

Perhaps <span style="font-weight: bold">you</span> don't. You shouldn't be so sure about <span style="font-weight: bold">we</span>.

I once had a shotgun pulled on me by a cop when I was 16. For standing in my own front yard after Hurricane Andrew. The story is long and boring, but the fact is I was standing in my own front yard, and Officer Friendly felt threatened because of it, so he pulled a shotgun.

Just this week, a sheriff used armored vehicles to "take down" a man (singular) <span style="font-weight: bold">SUSPECTED</span> of raising cockfighting hens. <span style="font-weight: bold">Armored fucking vehicles.</span> For a guy who fights chickens. Maybe. This is NOT the "only when the guy is a bona fide, proven beyond all doubt douchebag intent on causing harm" situation you claim is the ONLY time EXTREME violence is used against US citizens.

http://www.kpho.com/news/27272012/detail.html

And how about use of SWAT for raiding the fucking poker games of elderly men.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/05/poker-raid-turns-into-gunfight

Or underage drinking in a college town.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/...wmode=fullstory

Or killing dogs and endangering children by blazing in to a home, guns firing for non-arrestable amounts of pot with no-knock raids. This raid was after zero investigation (8 days after an anonymous tip with no follow up), not only after all other avenues of police work were exhausted.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri

Or unlicensed barber shops.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010...ions-dave-ogden

Can I have "setting an innocent girl on fire with a flash bang grenade after raiding the wrong apartment" for $1000?

http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/17/detroit-girl-7-killed-in-swat

I'm hoping that no sane person would argue that an elderly couple who raises orchids is reason for a SWAT raid, guns blazing. But I know that somewhere, a cop did.

http://reason.com/blog/2009/10/05/federal-swat-raid-over-orchids

How about the fine police work here, where they decided to use a SWAT raid after a Walmart employee had a misunderstanding with a customer? You know, the fine police work that lead them to raid his home while the actual suspect, who wasn't guilty of anything at all, was out of town. For bonus points, in their justification for using a no-knock raid, the police cited that the couple who lives there has CCW permits.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/03/23/fourth-circuit-denies-qualifie

How about for misdemeanors?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Over the last six months of 2009, SWAT teams were deployed 804 times in the state of Maryland, or about 4.5 times per day. In Prince George's County alone, with its 850,000 residents, a SWAT team was deployed about once per day. According to a Baltimore Sun analysis, 94 percent of the state's SWAT deployments were used to serve search or arrest warrants, leaving just 6 percent in response to the kinds of barricades, bank robberies, hostage takings, and emergency situations for which SWAT teams were originally intended.

Worse even than those dreary numbers is the fact that <span style="font-weight: bold">more than half of the county’s SWAT deployments were for misdemeanors and nonserious felonies. That means more than 100 times last year Prince George’s County brought state-sanctioned violence to confront people suspected of nonviolent crimes.</span> And that's just one county in Maryland. These outrageous numbers should provide a long-overdue wake-up call to public officials about how far the pendulum has swung toward institutionalized police brutality against its citizenry, usually in the name of the drug war. </div></div>

http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/01/45-swat-raids-per-day

This list could go on indefinitely.

If increasing volatile situations are to blame for officer deaths, perhaps police departments may want to re-evaluate the seeming hard-on they have for introducing the violence they claim to abhor and vow to prevent in to many of those situations. If the weapons discussed in this thread were used exclusively for the purpose you describe, confronting very dangerous suspects whose crimes fall outside the help that normal police practices can provide, the citizenry wouldn't have a problem. But they're not only used in those volatile situations. In fact, they're used far more frequently for what should be routine police work (the kind that should be done BEFORE resorting to such violent extremes), likely, in part, in an effort to justify the "need" that police departments have claimed to have for these weapons in the first place. You know how it works: if you don't use your budget and demonstrate that you NEEDED that money by using the things you bought with it, you don't get any more money to buy yet more hardware in the future.

I don't have anything against LEOs. But the "we ALWAYS have the best intentions" and "we ONLY use force when we have no other choice" argument, in light of the mountains of evidence to the contrary, simply don't hold much water anymore, and every time a LEO makes that argument despite the evidence, the entire community loses credibility. These are not isolated incidents as LEO and law and order conservatives would have the rest of us believe; they happen everyday.

As a citizen who is concerned about the frequent use of extreme force against American citizens by LE, I want to know that a particular weapon system is REALLY needed in order to do your job, not simply desired for the "just in case" situations that very rarely seem to happen.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Really, did you read the articles through before you posted. Vice units are not SWAT Teams. When Detectives and Vice execute a search warrant they wear Raid Vest that clearly show the letters of Sherrif or Police or Agent.We have to for Identification purposes for many reasons.When SWAT executes a warrant it says SWAT. Not once did it mention the ABC Sherrif SWAT TEAM it all said Vice or officers. So make sure you dont get the 2 confused, becasue there is a difference. The Steven Segal one, well I will give you that one, its them showing off for t.v. Every Time my team serves a search warrant we all most allways find semi-auto "AK-47" SKS, AR variants and other nasty little guns that they have stolen, and or tried to modify.Thats in the city areas now if you go out to the country add to that plus some nice bolt action 308's 30.06's and I could keep going.By the way those bad guys usually get upset when we got to take away thier dope and money and have a habbit of not wanting to be nice about it. Sure good ole hunting rifles are good to go but when you are on the receiving end lol not so good. Speaking of which have you ever had the unique and distinct pleasure of getting shot at? Well I have and kept the pictures of my cruiser missing its back window and the bullet richoets in the divider in the prisoner cage. Hell it took me a week to get the impression of the FORD emblem outta my forhead from ducking. My wife oh yeah she was my girl friend then she remembers the phone call of me telling her hey baby, dont watch the news, I am ok. Can you tell the difference between a snap, a hiss and a zing when you are not in a car and being shot at, brother I sure as hell can. 50 of my brother and sister officers have died this year so that you can sleep at night.If you dont have the background or experience in law enforcement, like I mentioned in a previous statement, go to you'r local P.D. get involved in a Citizens Police Academy or see if they will allow you to go on a ride along.You will be glad you did.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

A suicidal gunman and former Army solider fatally shot a Fond du Lac (Wisc.) Police officer and wounded two others on Sunday. He was found dead by SWAT officers who entered the home after a six-hour stand-off using tear gas.

Officer Craig Birkholz, 28, was shot in the upper torso above his ballistic vest as he approached the home at 24 S. Lincoln Ave. K-9 Officer Ryan Williams and his dog Grendel were also shot at about 6:30 a.m. Sunday. Chief Tony Barthuly said Williams' ballistic vest likely saved his life. A third officer was hit and not seriously wounded, reports the Fond du Lac Reporter.

Suspect James Cruckson, a 30-year-old Army veteran, turned the gun on himself during the standoff with SWAT. Officers initially went to the home, after a woman arrived at the police station to report a sexual crime involving Cruckson.

During the standoff, Cruckson's mother Lynn Surita contacted her son to attempt to get him to surrender to authorities. Apparently Cruckson suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

**********************************THIS IS NOT TO SLAM ANY VET SINCE I AM ONE AS WELL. ELEAF THIS MENTIONS A SWAT TEAM.
NOW BACK ON TOPIC SEMI VS. BOLT

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

More is (or should be) taken into consideration when deciding to use a tactical team for a warrant than simply the crime being investigated at the time. If a man has shot at police or violently resisted arrest in the past but is only wanted for raising fighting chickens, I would still want a tactical team executing the warrant.

You can find long lists of mistakes made by any segment of the population or work force. If someone were interested in finding the truth they would not rely on the media as a source of information. As already stated in this thread the media will sensationalize any story they can find to sell newspapers or get ratings. Don't allow yourself to be spoon fed by those with an agenda. As I said earlier, I have no problems with taxpayers questioning what is going on but at least seek answers from those who can provide them.

As an example, I was involved in a shooting back in 2003. When I fired the round there were 18 other police officers in the apartment complex courtyard who witnessed what happened. There were another 25 police officers who were not in a position to be eye witnesses but were involved in and had knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the event. The media was provided with a statement of facts by the department, they also sought an interview with the family of the person I shot. One account was factual, cut and dry. The other contained accusations of wrong doing and information completely contrary to what the persons interviewed had provided us at the scene. Who's information do you think the media printed? Sure as hell wasn't the truth about what happened, it was what the media thought they could stir up controversy with. Nothing new but those who choose to be mislead will be.

Mistakes happen, there are teams out there that probably shouldn't exist. My team consists of two separate teams that were combing in Jan 2007. Taking both teams into consideration we have had to shoot two people in the past 8 years during several thousand operations. Needless to say we don't see much media coverage because we don't give them what they want.

Forgive me for making generalizations about LE. It's easy for me to assume that everyone in my profession acts with the same amount of professionalism that we strive for. It is also easy for you to assume that the media only prints the truth and that all officers act with disregard for the citizens they serve.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

We sold SR-25's directly to 6 LE Departments last year, plus several entities that went thru distributors.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I hate fng stats because some one with an agenda can use them to make a point without the human loss being felt.

My stats that trump the fucking written. 24 years LE, and two friends dead. I lost track of the funerals for guys I barely or did not knew. None of those funerals where fun and games. Lives lost, families ruined.

I have a stat for everyone. How many guys say "The cops wont take me alive" and then shit there pants when they get a MP5 or M4 pointed at them? Greater than dont.

I was issued a M16 in 1982, that had full auto. How many times did I use it on full auto? Not once because I never needed it. Thats the point, we wont use what we wont need. If we do its time for discipline.

Our Military and Police need the tools to take care of the problems that have and will happen. If you think we are going to use it to take down your Meth Lab, no worries we learned long ago to just wait until you blow yourself up. (That last part is a joke folks, we still have to go inside Meth Labs)

PS I had a duty Semi Auto Sniper for my last five years but never had to use it.

 

[BCP]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mistakes happen, there are teams out there that probably shouldn't exist.</div></div>

Definitely. The town I used to live in had a crazy swat crew and I have lots of stories about them. Incompetent and unprofessional, thankfully they haven't accidentally killed anyone yet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Forgive me</div></div>

For what? Police who serve honorably (and from reading your posts it sounds like you do) are an asset to the community.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">amount of professionalism that we strive for.</div></div>

That's good to hear. The vast majority of cops I've known have been good guys who loved their jobs. They all have great stories to tell and I've only known a couple who had violent encounters with suspects and they felt terrible about it.

/thread derail

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I’m not a Police Officer nor do I pretend to be one. Nor am I about to ARMCHAIR what cops do for a living. I still don’t understand why every debate that has something to do with law enforcement turns into a cop bashing thread.


Ah, where to begin. First off I would like to state that If I had the money I would personally buy every Police Officer out there a top of the line AR variant of their choice. I would also make sure every swat/sniper/whatever had the most top of the line gear out there to date, along with the best training available for those weapon systems and tactics. I have absolutely no fear that cops are going to kick in my door and kill myself or family. Unfortunately shit does happen to innocent people. However that’s what happens every day around the world. More innocent people are killed by drunk drivers than cops. So let’s knock off the Armchair expert shit on what cops should and should not do. Not to mention what weapon system they’re allowed to carry. I want a good majority of cops to look like they just stepped off a helo from Afghanistan. I want criminals so scared and keyed up they decide it just anit worth fucking with cops or law abiding citizens. I would actually like to see more criminals dropped stone cold dead in their tracks. I want the message sent that if you intend harm to law abiding citizens or cops harm you’re only going to get one chance to surrender to the authorities or be killed, period. I’m tired of wasting my tax dollars on gutter trash that will never amount to shit, breed more useless shit, all to live on my dollar.

About you’re chicken fighting. I support the fact they rolled up with armored vehicles with weapons drawn. Good on them. See you seem to miss the good points about that. What they’re doing is illegal, they know it’s illegal and they could give a shit. Show up ready for war and the criminals in the area get the message. Fuck up and were coming for you. Physiological warfare is a great motivator.

I do not have the time or care to give a flying fuck about how criminals feel. I will not shed a tear over them or their families. You have choices in life own up to them and stfu. You can decide to be trash or a decent law abiding hard working citizen. I hope you choose wisely. You have nothing to fear from the authorities if you’re following the law. Police officers are not above the law and you’ll find out a greater majority of those cops you thumb your noses at don’t act like they are.


There are only a couple areas I would critique with Police officers. I wish there was a very hard selection process to become a cop. I wish It was mandatory to be proficient with your firearms. I want every cop practicing once a week with their firearms. That’s it. I don’t want a 400 lb guy to become a cop. I only want the physically and mentally strong to become a cop.

Sorry for the rant. However the cop bashing and armchair worrier shit gets real old.

Now, get the fuck off my lawn.

To the original question, bolt vs. semi-auto? If you know without a doubt that either gun you select can be used with great efficiency in a hostage situation and you would be comfortable being the hostage. I say run whatever you want.

My hats off to you officers you deserve more respect and better wages.

 

[eleaf]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I’m not a Police Officer nor do I pretend to be one. Nor am I about to ARMCHAIR what cops do for a living. I still don’t understand why every debate that has something to do with law enforcement turns into a cop bashing thread.


Ah, where to begin. First off I would like to state that If I had the money I would personally buy every Police Officer out there a top of the line AR variant of their choice. I would also make sure every swat/sniper/whatever had the most top of the line gear out there to date, along with the best training available for those weapon systems and tactics. I have absolutely no fear that cops are going to kick in my door and kill myself or family. Unfortunately shit does happen to innocent people. However that’s what happens every day around the world. More innocent people are killed by drunk drivers than cops. So let’s knock off the Armchair expert shit on what cops should and should not do. Not to mention what weapon system they’re allowed to carry. I want a good majority of cops to look like they just stepped off a helo from Afghanistan. I want criminals so scared and keyed up they decide it just anit worth fucking with cops or law abiding citizens. I would actually like to see more criminals dropped stone cold dead in their tracks. I want the message sent that if you intend harm to law abiding citizens or cops harm you’re only going to get one chance to surrender to the authorities or be killed, period. I’m tired of wasting my tax dollars on gutter trash that will never amount to shit, breed more useless shit, all to live on my dollar.

About you’re chicken fighting. I support the fact they rolled up with armored vehicles with weapons drawn. Good on them. See you seem to miss the good points about that. What they’re doing is illegal, they know it’s illegal and they could give a shit. Show up ready for war and the criminals in the area get the message. Fuck up and were coming for you. Physiological warfare is a great motivator.

I do not have the time or care to give a flying fuck about how criminals feel. I will not shed a tear over them or their families. You have choices in life own up to them and stfu. You can decide to be trash or a decent law abiding hard working citizen. I hope you choose wisely. You have nothing to fear from the authorities if you’re following the law. Police officers are not above the law and you’ll find out a greater majority of those cops you thumb your noses at don’t act like they are.


There are only a couple areas I would critique with Police officers. I wish there was a very hard selection process to become a cop. I wish It was mandatory to be proficient with your firearms. I want every cop practicing once a week with their firearms. That’s it. I don’t want a 400 lb guy to become a cop. I only want the physically and mentally strong to become a cop.

Sorry for the rant. However the cop bashing and armchair worrier shit gets real old.

Now, get the fuck off my lawn.

To the original question, bolt vs. semi-auto? If you know without a doubt that either gun you select can be used with great efficiency in a hostage situation and you would be comfortable being the hostage. I say run whatever you want.

My hats off to you officers you deserve more respect and better wages.
</div></div>

I suppose it doesn't matter top you that NONE of those people had been convicted of anything. They were merely suspects.

Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty, and that until such time the state cannot deprive one of his life, liberty, or property without due process of law (hint: amendments 5,6, and 14 guarantee it)? I take it that either your head has been in the sand (willingly), or you just don't care. Either way, as I suspect, you've shown that your concern for our Constitutional rights is about as genuine as your average statist.

According to the story, "Thousands of dollars in damages were made to the property and 115 birds were euthanized on the spot." I'd say they deprived him of property, and all over "<span style="font-weight: bold">suspected</span> cockfighting, none of which after the 'due process of law".

I sure hope that you're never "suspected" of anything. Actually, with your attitude, I hope you are, and I hope the tanks and armed thugs do the very same thing to your home.

I love how Law and Order "Conservatives" cherry pick our Constitutional rights at their convenience. Anyone who would advocate state violence against those who have been accused (and not convicted) for what amounts to nothing more than petty crimes deserves to be fucked sideways with a baseball bat.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

eleaf, have I been ever suspected of a crime? Well I have had the misfortune of being in wrong place at wrong time driving a similar vehicle to one used in an armed robbery. Result: Pulled over, taken into custody at gun point, then released when mistake was found out. Now if I had been a knucklehead and pulled my gun because of my rights and knowing I had not done anything I would have ended differently because I would have gone from wrong place wrong time to a criminal taking on the police doing there lawful job. I may not have alot of sense but I have enough sense to do right thing under such obvious circumstances.

As to calling us "Thugs" well I am sure you can sleep good late at night because some good men and women keep the real bad guys from taking away your rights. We use only force needed to take them into custody based on There Fng Actions. They fight, we fight harder. They go for weapon they go down. No one ever signed on to be shot and then let next cop shoot guy that got them.

Now you suggest the cops you treat you like your innnocent until proven guilty? I guess we should walk up to every vehicle and suspect as if he was Mr. Rogers? That is about as dumb a thing as I have ever heard. Usually from someone so liberal they think cops should not have weapons at all. Those are the ones we used to run through training simulators who shot everyone when pressure was on them. I seriously doubt you would want to walk up to a potential murder suspect and say "Hey I hope you dont mind coming in with me. You can ride in the front with me." I am sure Manson would have gone along no sweat. Polyanna has arrived

Now lesson for the day is to look up
1.Exigent Circumstances
2. Officer Safety
3. Probable Cause