LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

[03dvldog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

As for My department we also use semi-auto sniper rifles. Our department is in such a budget crunch that our Sniper team is funded by the Snipers themselves because they enjoy their profession. We have bought our own bolt guns as well as semi-auto .308 rifles as well as any other gear associated with it. Its expensive but at the end of the day IT IS OURS!!

Currently we are fielding two semi-auto Sniper rifles consisting of a LWRC REPR and a LMT MWS. Also we have two Remington 700's.

As for whether we need them or not..YES we do !!! Semi-auto sniper rifles have a real need in our profession. If any of you need proof just look up the hostage situation at the "Good Guys" store in Sacramento in 1991. The snipers at that time had bolt guns, they took a shot through glass that deflected the round just enough that it barely missed the suspect. However since the suspect was not hit and only got glass fragmentation to his face he turned and shot about 5 hostages seated on the ground before the sniper could effectively re-engage due to the bolt gun and a moving target.

With that in mind how nice would it have been to have a semi-auto with a quick follow up shot to eliminate the threat before the 5 hostages were shot. Unfortunately 3 hostages were killed out of the 50 that were taken with 11 others injured. As a side note 3 of the 4 hostage takers were also killed.

As a result I think we have learned some things, and why not have the ability to perform quick follow up shots. Deminished expectations is a killer. Just because 4 hostage takers are'nt the normal statistically speaking, It doesnt mean you shouldn't be ready in case it does with the proper tools to get the job done.

We had to prove to our department the need for these tools (Semi-Autos) and there really is no better real life incident than the "Good Guys" incident to prove everything we had to on why we needed to have that capability.

 

[03dvldog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Bump

 

[Drake Associates]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

A surrounding agency just went to semi-auto FNAR 16" barrels .308, in place of the R700 PSS

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 03dvldog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for My department we also use semi-auto sniper rifles. Our department is in such a budget crunch that our Sniper team is funded by the Snipers themselves because they enjoy their profession. We have bought our own bolt guns as well as semi-auto .308 rifles as well as any other gear associated with it. Its expensive but at the end of the day IT IS OURS!!

Currently we are fielding two semi-auto Sniper rifles consisting of a LWRC REPR and a LMT MWS. Also we have two Remington 700's.

As for whether we need them or not..YES we do !!! Semi-auto sniper rifles have a real need in our profession. If any of you need proof just look up the hostage situation at the "Good Guys" store in Sacramento in 1991. The snipers at that time had bolt guns, they took a shot through glass that deflected the round just enough that it barely missed the suspect. However since the suspect was not hit and only got glass fragmentation to his face he turned and shot about 5 hostages seated on the ground before the sniper could effectively re-engage due to the bolt gun and a moving target.

With that in mind how nice would it have been to have a semi-auto with a quick follow up shot to eliminate the threat before the 5 hostages were shot. Unfortunately 3 hostages were killed out of the 50 that were taken with 11 others injured. As a side note 3 of the 4 hostage takers were also killed.

As a result I think we have learned some things, and why not have the ability to perform quick follow up shots. Deminished expectations is a killer. Just because 4 hostage takers are'nt the normal statistically speaking, It doesnt mean you shouldn't be ready in case it does with the proper tools to get the job done.

We had to prove to our department the need for these tools (Semi-Autos) and there really is no better real life incident than the "Good Guys" incident to prove everything we had to on why we needed to have that capability. </div></div>

DevilDog this incident failure had nothing to do with bolt vs. auto..It was a tactical failure from the get get go in there should have been 2 snipers engaging per target for HR sniping trained in coordinated concurrent fire especially shooting through glass.. Not 1 or 3 or 5.. exactly 2!

 

[Platypus]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I am currently putting together a 308LR just for the purpose of seeing how viable it is for the role of a LE sniper. My intent is a system still easily manipulated while working into position, 16" barrel CTR stock, and able to provide accuracy in keeping with the bolt guns. A free floated fore end with a rail on top in the hopes of also showing the benefits of NV such as the PS22, along with threaded muzzle for a suppresor. We are the 15th largest city in the state and share an border with the 4th largest city in the country and we do not have night vision or suppressors, certainly room to improve our capabilities.

LE snipers for the most part are way behind the technology curve and the use of quality glass and rifles that are truly pupose built can be problematic with budgets as they are and public perception what is. LE is responding to the treat which unfortunately is not the same as it was just 20-30 years ago. Bad guys are better armed and working in larger more organized groups with a lot less respect for human life let alone LE. To preserve the life of innocent persons and fellow officers LE must adjust accordingly. As much as LE fights the stigma of "Us vs. Them" mentallity within the department so must the general public resist the temptation to do so as well. The Sheepdog may not always be sweet but he damn sure better be effective when called upon.

As far as a .50cal "Why not" they are great at neutralizing explosive devices (hence why they are issued to military EOD units) they work great on stopping vehicles which is huge as we really do not want a threat to go mobile if we can help it. Modern building materials and ease of up armoring vehicles and structures may require a greater degree of ballistic intervention than what a .308 may offer.

The previous has been a public service announcement and was certainly not intended to hijack the thread.

Back on topic: with the addition of SASS rifles in LE can we build on this topic by listing some economical choices to field an accurate semi auto in a sniper role. Are there comparible SASS systems out there in say the same price point as an LTR and Leupold 3.5x10? With the addition of SASS platforms how has this changed training at your department? For example are you doing faster gun drills, utilizing more moving targets etc.?

Take care and be safe,

 

[JLM]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT1112</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A surrounding agency just went to semi-auto FNAR 16" barrels .308, in place of the R700 PSS </div></div>

Having shot said rifle: 1. shitty ergonomics 2. shitty accuracy. 3. see 1 and 2.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I am runing a DPMS LR-308.The barrel is obviously free floated and I had the end of the barrel dura-coated in a flat black, am using a PRS Stock, Burris 3-12 XTR with lit Mil-Dot, Single Stage Wilson Combat with a set 4lb trigger, and Harris Notched Swivle Bipod.I also use the 20 rnd Magpull P-Mag. My rifle consistantly shoots .5 moa or under depending on me using 168 gr. FGMM.Bolt guns are great, call me biased, but I really like my gas gun.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

a semi auto is a more then capable LEO gun, I believe with things like school shootings and the LA bank job years ago. for anything other then a static overwatch a gas gun is a better choice offering more bullets, good accuracy, quick follow up shots. i think a 16" 308 carbine would be more then enough for a LEO "sniper" gun.

 

[Dontmiss0311]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

My department is in the process of getting Rock River LAR-8 varmit 20" rifles for the snipers. Currently we are using Sig SSG300's. The Sig's are great rifles; however they are almost too much rifle for most of our call outs (considering the size and weight compared to the typical distance). We are not replacing them, but rather expanding our capabilities. The Rock River's are intended to be the standard for callouts, with the Sig's being for longer range (200yds +). We are an urban department with diverse urban terrain (high rise, residential, and commercial) and we do have groups of criminals running around here with AK's and SKS's. I personally feel a lot more comfortable having a semi auto 308 as my primary rifle due to our diversity and possible threats. Also considering if I am called out, then the situation is beyond the normal danger level of patrol. I want a rifle that is capable of dealing with a situation that would be considered really bad for a sniper and the team. During a SWAT callout there is absolutely no option for failure, we must win that confrontation. A situation that is plausible in my are is 3-4 criminals barricaded in house with AK's taking pot shots at any law enforcement in sight. I think that would be a perfect situation where snipers with semi auto's would have an advantage over bolt guns. Another situation is an officer down/rescue scenario. I know in the world of Law Enforcement supressive fire isn't the best option, but sometimes it maybe the only option. If I was bleeding out or going to rescue an officer bleeding out, I would want as much suppressive fire as I could get.

Back the equipment selection. We went with the Rock River because it fit our needs. We tested them and found the accuracy is acceptalbe (average 1/2 - 3/4 moa) and they were reliable. We just couldn't justify spending the extra $1,000 - $2,000 on some of the other brands considering the role the rifles were intended for.

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Im seeing on a regular basis poorly trained LE not able to hit shit at 200 yards with scoped match m14s and AR10s, but these same people can still adequately hit the targets with a 5.56 ar15s or SPRs.
Personally I would rather see these cops shoot 6.5 grendels or 6.8 SPC. because the training and transition would be easier.
For those who insist on a 7.62 gas gun for LE,Keep in mind if your background is that of a highly trained Marine Infantryman or Sniper or Navy SEAL, your training background vs. that of an untrained or seems very popular these days "self trained" tactical LE is a world different.
This aint a slam, its just reality most LE dont or wont or cant get the training they need.

 

[BCP]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: platypus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are there comparible SASS systems out there in say the same price point as an LTR and Leupold 3.5x10?
</div></div>

Not really. Maybe DPMS or RRA. IIRC Armalite offerings start around 1500$. As far as "easily manipulated" there are side-charging setups out there. The way Fulton adds a knob to the side of the bolt and cuts the upper for instance. I don't think you could do it for less than 17-1800 though.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Im seeing on a regular basis poorly trained LE not able to hit shit at 200 yards with scoped match m14s and AR10s, but these same people can still adequately hit the targets with a 5.56 ar15s or SPRs.
</div></div>

Where are you seeing this on a regular basis?

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

So not hurt anyones feeling or embarras indivisuals who may frequent this site, Lets just say most recently local LE who share the range where I and a couple other members of this forum do our work.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So not hurt anyones feeling or embarras indivisuals who may frequent this site, Lets just say most recently local LE who share the range where I and a couple other members of this forum do our work.

</div></div>

So your assessment of "most" is a couple of local LE guys who shoot at your range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This aint a slam, its just reality most LE dont or wont or cant get the training they need. </div></div>

Got it.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

For the past 7 years I have been the sniper team leader for a county team. We cover a population of 185,000. I have written our agencies qualification standards and instructed for LE snipers at the state level. I would be very hesitant to allow a semi auto to be employed as a sniper rifle. The primary reason is that the guys I have trained and are on my team do not put forth enough time with their primary weapon systems and a semi auto takes a little more effort in order to employ it as a precision rifle. I would also challenge the benefits a LE sniper would gain by employing a semi-auto as a dedicated sniper rifle. I know several people, myself included, that can run a bolt gun just as fast and as accurate as a semi auto to a certain extent. For the majority of LE units out there I find it hard to believe they have a real "need" for a semi auto precision rifle... I think it becomes more of a "want".

Concerning the training/qualification standards on a bolt vs semi... Don't you dare make a different standard or a different course. As soon as you do you put limitations on each of those weapon systems and will only cause more problems in the long run. What I would do is make your semi auto precision rifle guys qual under the carbine qualification standards if you feel a need to do something to validate their abilities with a semi auto.

As for the 50cal discussion... This is a whole different animal and it is way off the original post but I feel a need to respond. I am in full support of LE units deploying with a 50 as long as they are properly trained and understand the purpose of the 50 in an LE operation. The 50 is primarily an anti material and as several people posted before me the need is there.

 

[ehall]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

We are getting ready to test a few of these rifles for deployment. The test will include:

GA Precision
Larue
JP Rifles
D9 Firearms (local)

I will post the results and findings of the tests and let you all know. As for accuracy I had the oppurtunity to test an Knight's SR25 and it was every bit as accurate as the bolt guns. The above guns are more economical so we'll see how they perform. They definately have a place in the LE sniper community but still have to meet the accuracy standards MOA or better.

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So not hurt anyones feeling or embarras indivisuals who may frequent this site, Lets just say most recently local LE who share the range where I and a couple other members of this forum do our work.

</div></div>

So your assessment of "most" is a couple of local LE guys who shoot at your range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This aint a slam, its just reality most LE dont or wont or cant get the training they need. </div></div>

Got it. </div></div>

I assure you my assesment is more than a couple and it involves " local LE guys" in far larger agencies then yours..If you would like to continue your sarcastic remarks please feel free to PM me.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So not hurt anyones feeling or embarras indivisuals who may frequent this site, Lets just say most recently local LE who share the range where I and a couple other members of this forum do our work.

</div></div>

So your assessment of "most" is a couple of local LE guys who shoot at your range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This aint a slam, its just reality most LE dont or wont or cant get the training they need. </div></div>

Got it. </div></div>

I assure you my assesment is more than a couple and it involves " local LE guys" in far larger agencies then yours..If you would like to continue your sarcastic remarks please feel free to PM me. </div></div>

Why take your broad brush painting to PM? If you're qualified to make assessments of LE and their apparent inadequacies from sea to shining sea I'm sure everyone would like to be educated.

 

[sinister]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zohan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Im seeing on a regular basis poorly trained LE not able to hit shit at 200 yards with scoped match m14s and AR10s, but these same people can still adequately hit the targets with a 5.56 ar15s or SPRs.

Personally I would rather see these cops shoot 6.5 grendels or 6.8 SPC. because the training and transition would be easier.

For those who insist on a 7.62 gas gun for LE,Keep in mind if your background is that of a highly trained Marine Infantryman or Sniper or Navy SEAL, your training background vs. that of an untrained or seems very popular these days "self trained" tactical LE is a world different.

This aint a slam, its just reality most LE dont or wont or cant get the training they need. </div></div>

Even if they can afford and get it do they sustain or improve on their level of training?

I have trained with so many cops (and my brother's large California department is no exception) where non full-time SWAT and sniper duty skills are barely maintained -- even in departments that have just lost officers in line-of-duty deaths.

 

[BCP]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why take your broad brush painting to PM? If you're qualified to make assessments of LE and their apparent inadequacies from sea to shining sea I'm sure everyone would like to be educated. </div></div>

What he said isn't that unbelievable. There are lots of cops out there who aren't gun enthusiasts and for them it is just a job. But that's a total thread derail.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are lots of cops out there who aren't gun enthusiasts and for them it is just a job. But that's a total thread derail. </div></div>

Sure there are, I've got several on my team. The suggestion that they can adequately hit what they are aiming at with a 5.56 but are so inept when shooting the incredibly difficult to master AR-10 that they should only be allowed a 6.8SPC due to an apparently easier transition is what I can't make sense of.

We don't run any auto rifles on my team. I can see an advantage to having them but it isn't a priority and what meager money I am allowed to spend on gear goes toward more useful equipment. I had a personally owned IRA-10D that was a consistent sub MOA rifle with 118lr or my handloads, there was nothing I could accomplish with my bolt gun that I couldn't just as easily accomplish with that rifle. The limiting factor was that the IRA did not like 168gr FGMM so it never saw any duty use.

 

[sniper2ndrep]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

You can come to your own conclusions but dont reword what i said and I never said they should only have 6.8spc..
The topic of multiple target engagemnts and supressive fire keeps coming up and a 16 inch 7.62 gas gun has quite a bit more blast and recoil than a 5.56 regardless how straight back you get behind the damn gun and easliy induces flinch to the inxeperienced shooters and undoubtedly fuck up your followups. The military has known this too for a long time which is why shooters are sent to special schools to train on 7.62 DMR gas guns..
But I think this has less to do with 7.62 gas guns and more of a personal issue with your sensitivities..Im done with this subject and FYI a pogue is a fucking pogue regardless what uniform you put on.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Suppressive fire doesn't exist in the LE world.

I've never seen a 16" 7.62 being used in the LE community.

Recoil is negligible in a gas gun and far less than what is felt with a bolt gun so I don't see that as an issue.

It's not about sensitivity but ignorance.

I agree with you that a pogue is a pogue and wearing any certain uniform does not disqualify someone from earning the moniker.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

my 2 cents worth:

LEO sniper cal should be at least a .30 (i'll even go .338) - whether a bolt or semi - to get through those pesky windows, car doors, etc. as the more mass / gr weight options available to get the job done without as much resistance or deflection as a .223 or for that matter 6.8. i'm not going to mention .50 cal, as that's just silly for practicality and financial reasons in a average LEO setting.

bolt or semi? my preference is a bolt.

yeah semi is nice for multiple engagements, but one must consider that the probable mindset of an average LEO sniper would be hard enough to neutralize one threat if need be, never mind multiple threats. let's remember alot of these guys are regular officers that have an above average shooting skill, not neccessarily experience in neutralizing threats, and plans on being home for dinner at 6:00. somewhere in there, i'd have to assume many collateral hits on friendlys with rapid fire, at least the short amount of time it takes to cycle the bolt gives some time to the officer to wrap his head around what just happened, and what still has to be done without getting trigger happy. besides, how many multiples are we talking about here on average, 2 or 3?

it's not like there is a dozen or two dozen battle hardened taliban running down main street, in that instance the usual patrol rifle will clear the problem.

perhaps 1 scumbag with a hostage, another keeping watch, and another keeping the get away car warmed up is the norm. when the guy with the hostage goes down, his buddies are going to scared stiff, enough time to cycle the bolt, compose yourself and carry on. so for practicality / low PD budget sake, go bolt.

although i prefer a bolt, as mentioned before your average "urban actions" are under 100 yards, semis have come a long way, no doubt within 200 yards they are quite effective and accurate. an accurized AR with a 20" match barrel will be the cure.

as far as a PD with a limited (low) or no budget, i wouldn't scrap what you already have to go to another platform. if you have bolt, take a portion of funding to accurize an existing semi patrol rifle as a secondary option / backup, and use whatever is left for training with it, or upgrades to the existing platform. plus you may have just doubled your marksman force to 2 instead of 1 in a small department. if you don't have any precision rifles, but the usual patrol rifle, accurize it and convert it to one, along with a qualified shooter.

as far as recoil with the 30 cal semi or bolt (especially the semi), there are many recoil taming "products" out there to help with the inexperienced shooters (and experienced shooters)staying on target for multiple engagements / rapid fire. we all miss, and knowing that follow up shot is ready to go almost immediately is comforting, but at the same token, makes some shooters complacent - almost sloppy - knowing that a follow up shot is ready to send in the event of a miss, slightly distracting from the first shot, another reason i prefer going bolt.

in a world where seemingly everyone and their cousin has a "black rifle", the next few generations of overwatchers are probably going to find the AR platform more familiar. with an average urban engagement under 100 yards, an accurized 30 cal AR is probably going to be the future norm, and justifiably so as it can more than handily take care of things under 100 and beyond. a PD that has the funds to re-arm or start a new squad, i think the .30 cal AR is the way to go as your shooters are probably acclaimated more to the AR platform than a standard bolt by now.

<span style="font-weight: bold">at this point of the game for how far semis have come (especially accurized ones) and at usual urban settings / distances, i have to say it becomes more of choosing according to funding as accuracy is neck and neck at those distances.</span> as "the bad guys" become more daring and occurances become more frequent, the call for a precision marksman become more viable than ever with either an accurate bolt or semi, as funding allows.


the qualification standards should remain the same. the crackhead with the hostage isn't going to give you another inch because you are shooting a gas gun.

 

[mgd45]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I'm glad I live & work in Georgia as an LEO.....down here in my neck of the woods in Georgia, as long as Deadly Force was legally justified & the shooting was considered "good" by the GBI....your weapon ain't staying in evidence for "years & years".

There's no reason to keep a weapon in "evidence" when it's not "evidence of any crime." The last 3 LEO shootings that I've been privy to witness, were all legally justified & the GBI cleared the shooting Officer of any wrong doing within 24 hours. Weapons were returned to the Agency...I was able to speak to the Senior Agent in Charge on the last shooting and actually asked him about what they look for.....his main response was, <span style="font-style: italic">"we could care less what kind of weapon the Officer used....as long as it was justified..." </span>

I guess if the family member wants to sue in Civil Court they can.....but they have to get by the fact that deadly force was justified....doesn't matter if I killed their son with a baseball bat or $5000 custom rifle.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I believe that the choice of weapons, semi, bolt, 50bmg, 20mmbolt etc, should depend on the police force's actual needs and their SOP. If for example their SOP limits a "sniper" to a shot of 100 yards or less (vast majority of police sniper shots are far less)a small loss of accuracy(+-1/4moa) really wouldn't make much difference in the final outcome. The real question is, can your tax payers handle the extra expense? Not just the purchase, but the training and all associated expenses? And is it really worth their money? I know someone will say, "if it's you their saving it's worth $1,00,000,000 etc.", but lets try to stay real, taxes can only go up so high, in commie states, as is CA, they spend more then they take in, and are going to have come to grips with being bankrupt sooner or later. If you live in an area that really justifies a 50BMG-Get one, or maybe even a 20mm bolt action, but these places are few and far between. The U.S. has at least 10,000 police "snipers" when you add up all local, county, state, and federal LE agencies, 95%+ have never, nor will ever engage a target during their LE career(by this I mean pull the trigger), yet everone pays taxes every single day-there are a lot of things that would be nice to have, but can we afford them seems to be a question not too many people have been asking. But with all that said, I hope if you need a piece of equipment that you are able to get it, get trained with it etc.

 

[ehall]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

I agree with a lot that Top Predator says,
I love my bolt, I run a Rem 700 308 cal with a Bartlein 5R barrel, AICS 1.5, worked over by GA Precision. I consider this rifle to be as good as any precision weapon available on the market. In the hands of a capable shooter it will do anything that needs to be done.
With that being said after spending time putting an equally accurate weapons system through its paces, Knight’s SR-25, I was forced to reconsider what options were available. Both rifles were truly equal in precision, perfectly designed to place one precision round on the target of choice.
The reality is if they are both equal in accuracy then what does the gas gun do better than a bolt.
• Consistently faster follow up capability
• More versatile platform
• More versatile deployment use- move and shoot capability

Whether it is a handgun or long gun a gunfight is a game of time and inches. However does their job better wins. Anything you can do to gain time and inches to your side is beneficial. The reality is I cannot predict the engagement I will have to fight. All I can do is look at the worst case of the past and go from there.

We have faced:
• Multiple armed suspects.
http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Kansas-City-Police-Say-They-Would-Have-Been-Out-Gunned/1$35208
• Suspect armed with 50 bmg
http://www.policeone.com/investigations/...in-Kansas-City/
• Suspect armed w/ grenade
http://www.kmbc.com/news/2649842/detail.html
• Hostage
• Multiple hostage takers
http://cjonline.com/stories/083100/kan_hostagerelease.shtml

In all the above cases I was either personally involved or specifically debriefed the officers involved. The intent is for formulate training and equipment to effectively meet the needs. Just because a mission was successful does not mean it could not have been done better. Equipment is only a portion of the equation. As the saying goes I'd rather go down the river with 7 studs than 100 shitheads. (Colonel Charlie Beckwith)

These are just local examples and do not take into account engagements nationally. Obviously I can’t speak to the training level of every sniper in the U.S. To me that is irrelevant to the topic at hand. I am talking about putting a precision rifle in the hands of a well trained officer. Is the AR platform a capable and viable tool for the L.E. sniper and the answer is yes. I advocate keeping some bolt guns and adding a Gas gun 50/50 split, to supplement your capabilities. A self loading precision weapon is a formidable weapon. Deploying this combination gives your snipers a wider range of capabilities. I never thought I’d see the world trade center fall, the idea never entered my mind. I can’t predict the future my job is to prepare those who will face the future.
When you run side by side with the bolt guns using shooters of equal ability the gas gun comes out on top. The reason is simple in that the gas gun allows the shooter to concentrate on shooting. It does everything else for you. This does not equate to being lazy only that the more steps you have in a process the more likely of a failure or mistake. In the game of time and inches this is an advantage. I am not trying to get into a Ford vs. Chevy debate only an honest look at an available tool. I could play golf with only one club if I wanted to.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

"Always" and "Never" are some of the strongest words you will ever use.

I have no problem saying that the majority of law enforcement are at best average shooters under any stress. I form this opinion after instructing basic and instructor level courses for the past 7 years and competing for the last 10 years.

The original post asked specifically about semi autos for LE sniper use. We are talking about precision shooting, not minute of chest. You can not and should not use the excuse that the majority of LE sniper shots are taken under 100 yards. The weapon/shooter parameters should be from muzzle contact out to 50 yards beyond the farthest worse case scenario in your jurisdiction. To accept less is irresponsible. I have found numerous areas in our jurisdiction where perimeters could be set up as far as 450 yards so all of our guys have dope and have shot to 500 yards at a minimum. It is a stretch of the imagination but if you fail to train and prepare for it, that is when it will happen.

When looking at the "average" distance ask yourself if they had to be that close. I have seen numerous LE perimeters set up way too close to a target/threat. In some instances you just can't help it but in others I see guys inch there way into a dangerous hide site.
The AR10 platform is more than capable of hitting sub MOA targets but it is the nut behind the gun that can't always do it. A boltgun is just easier to shoot accurately and has less of a probability to malfunction. In a precision combat scenario with todays detachable magazine choices for boltguns I have confidence that most average shooters can run a boltgun just as good if not better than a semi auto platform. Another proving ground to look at are competitions, specifically tactical precision rifle comps. You don't see a lot of semi autos dominating. When you do see a semi auto do well they tend to be something other than a 308 and they are being operated by a very good shooter who owns the fundamentals.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

cowboy bravo, you make some good points, however; how realistic is it to compare competitions (tactical) to Departmental SOP? There is no question that the vast majority of police "sniper" shots are below 65 yards, questions of judgement in real shootings come into play. Questions as to the choice of ammo/caliber in the event of Target Blow Through for example. I can see an attorney "eating the lunch" of a guy that says he has won x amount of Tactical Competitions, and shoots x amount of rounds/month at a given ranges, when his Departmental SOP forbids a shot over 100 yards. In the last 10 years, as far as I know there has been less than 400 actual police "sniper" shots taken in the entire USA in the course of duty(not practice rounds etc. of course). If the vast majority are at or below 100 yards, it wouldn't be very hard to make the case to a jury that while going to competitions and high power ranges was all well and good, it didn't really practice the shot(s) the shooter needed to practice in the course of their duty. IMHO a semi or bolt gun are easily capable of >1MOA at or below 100 yards. The choice of bullet and caliber seems to be over looked-or is an after thought. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but if your PD (your tax payers) can afford to add these weapons-and all the expenses associated, and you need them-I hope you get them yesterday. If it is about a small group on the force that loves shooting, and loves the tax payer footing their shooting bill, and nothing more, perhaps that money could be use in a more effective way, or not spent at all.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can see an attorney "eating the lunch" of a guy that says he has won x amount of Tactical Competitions, and shoots x amount of rounds/month at a given ranges, when his Departmental SOP forbids a shot over 100 yards. </div></div>

paw print...fill out your profile.

You keep coming back to this 100 yard SOP thing. First, I would like to know WHAT departments you know of that actually have this SOP on the books.

Secondly I would like to point out that SOP's are STANDARD operating guidelines. They are not laws and they are not concrete. You don't get to let someone die because it would have violated SOP to take action to save them.

I really don't care about the Semi versus bolt argument. I said my piece a couple weeks ago in this thread. Now it's spun off into a totally new area.

Lastly kids. If you don't know shit about a topic. Keep your mouth shut. This isn't directed to anyone in particular. Just a reminder that the real world is a tad bit different than a nice day on the range or even a shitty day in competition.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Competitions are a great place to test abilities. Most good competitions, even some bad ones, mimic actual incidents or force shooters to use a specific method or tactic that has occurred in actual incidents. One example is weak side shooting. Many people rarely shoot weak side under stress. I can recall numerous instances while attended a match at Rifles Only that they make you fire a stage of fire from your weak side. This can be an eye opener when you are pushed into a situation and asked to perform a specific task.

You mention comparing comps to departmental SOP? Standard Operating Procedure or Departmental Policy are only a guideline and should be used as such. Comps are simply another training opportunity and should be used as such. What agency in their right mind would limit a shot beyond 100 yards? Please refer me to an agency that has that in black in white. I would love to see a policy that bold. I instructed a class where a team had a policy to zero entry guns to 7 yards rather than teach how to deal with mechanical offset and have a more practical zero. Day one when we moved back to 50 yards the 7 yard zero failed to hit a chest plate. Soon after their policy changed.

The topic of LE sniper distances is covered time and time again and it bugs the hell out me because so many people want to get caught up in what happens the majority of the time. The majority of the time or the average does not reflect what is going to happen in the next incident. Prepare for both extremes and everything in between.

I never said a semi auto wasn't capable of sub moa, i am saying the majority of cops operating the semi auto are not capable of sub moa accuracy. This is primarily do to the time they are allotted behind the gun for training.

Right now the benchmark for civil suits is Canton v Harris, this specifically covers the agencies failure to train. The role of the LE sniper is still broadly defined but history of LE sniper engagements have defined the parameters, what has worked and what has failed. Departmental training and qualification is what is scrutinized. If you know differently please cite some case law on the matter.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Cowboy Bravo, well put!

Pawprint, I see different website same BS from you.

Sinister and Zohan, understand what you are saying and since we can not afford to keep cops just working, its agreed most agencies do not conduct enough training. Sad state of affairs these days. Dave your brothers department is so over worked tehse days it has gone past anything even close to fixable.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

The average shot distance and number of shots taken by police snipers information comes from the Amerian Sniper Association. They have done a very careful study-using LE Data across the U.S. spanning more than a decade. If their information is wrong-I stand corrected! But before I do, please post a study (or link) that refutes their findings. It sounds like you have an SOP of sorts, longest shot in your area plus 50yards, if that is your standard, is it the same standard used by all the "snipers" on your team? The crux of my post has to do with TAX MONEY, it is easy to spend other peoples money-without a cost to benefit analysis. Less than 400 actual police sniper shots taken in the course of duty for over 10 years-nation wide, with the vast majority under 100 yards, appears to be the facts, again, if they are wrong, please post your source, I'll stand corrected, however; if these are the facts, the cost of weapons and training the extra training associated with a new system, has to be balanced against the cost benefit to the TAX PAYERS in a given jurisdiction. As I have previously stated, if your dept needs semi rifles, and can actually justify the expense-I am the first one to say-buy several! But if seems as if it could be a foolhearty waste of tax money for a dept that has never had even one actual shot fired in the line of duty by one of their "snipers" to be purchasing 50bmg, semi's, etc.. Many states and local govts. are facing hugh budget deficits (for the 10th+ year in a row) in order to keep from facing complete insolvency they are going to have to spend less money, or raise more tax revenue-I vote for less spending. Once again If a Dept really needs this equipment in order to do their job, other things should be cut, and they should get the needed equipment. Finally: for those LE type snipers in depts facing the need for 50bmgs, and belt feds etc. God Bless You! for those that are not facing the need, please try to keep costs down, tax dollars are harder to come by now than ever before.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

to: Tactical, as I have stated, I am relying on the American Sniper Associations study, if it is wrong, I'll stand corrected, I did not do the study. Please post a study, or studies that refute their findings, if so I'll agree with you that this is BS, otherwise, it stands as fact. What part of their study is off base? Is the average distance a shot is taken, or is it the number of shots taken? The number of blow through shots? I would love to have another authoritative long term study to read and reference-obviously you are aware of one, please share it.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Ok I am lost on how SOP would in any way have to dictate the distance in a shooting. Use of Force is any part of a SOP / Departmental Policy, i.e. the use of a taser. They are pretty simular across the board. If you are set up at say 100 yds or 200 becasue the suspect has a scoped rifle of some sort or other rifle. The suspects acts in the way that use of deadly force is justified and you shoot and stop the suspect. The SOP has nothing to do with the distance at which you set up / shot from. Thats why you have to articulate why you and your (insert bosses rank / title here) deceided that you were to set up at that distance, and what led you to shooting the suspect. For every SWAT / SRT OP here will tell you not every dynamic entry on a Search Warrant or barricaded subject/ hostage situation is the same.It constantly changes,and we adapt to that like the good sheep dogs we are. Which is one of the reason for this topic about semi-auto vs. bolt, and which platform is most widely adapted or used and why.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

For those of you that pointed out most PD's do not have an SOP regarding the range a shot can or should be made, I stand corrected! I must add, if a PD's training/rifle range is 600 yards or less, and he feels like (or the OIC) feels he should take the 1500 yard shot,and he misses, maybe a stray round kills an innocent bystander, or someone in their home, the question of good judgement may come up. An article in the Orlando Sentinel, Dec of Last year, quotes a former FBI agenta:
"This weapon system would give the SWAT team the ability to engage an adversary in a fortified or bunker position designed to defeat traditional law enforcement weapons," Canty wrote. "With an effective range of over 1,800 meters, it would also be a critical component of any action to rescue hostages aboard a large commercial airline."

But one law-enforcement expert questioned the wisdom of using such a powerful weapon in an urban area. Jim Fisher, a former FBI agent and professor emeritus of criminal law and policing at Edinboro University of Pennsylvania, said it's an example of police becoming increasingly militarized in both weapons and tactics.

"Orlando isn't Afghanistan, and the police aren't in combat," said Fisher, the author of "SWAT Madness and the Militarization of the American Police." "In a war zone, military snipers can take long-range shots because there's less concern about missing the target. Police snipers, when they're rarely needed, take short-range shots to eliminate the risk of killing a civilian or a hostage.

"A mile-long shot is not appropriate for domestic law enforcement. That's insane."


He may not know what he is talking about, but all in all I believe most people will agree with his wisdom.
For me, my point is and has always been, the DOLLAR cost to the local TAX PAYER, COST BENEFIT. Real leaders must make cost analysis in their decisions, followers do not, they just follow orders. Good PD's put there officers where they are most likely to stop crime, if not stop, apprehend criminals etc. this is called cost analysis, cost benefit. If the local tax payers could get a 400% increase in their PD, ie four times as many officers/cars/patrols/etc., without a tax hike, my guess is most would say, "hell yes!". But when you talk about a small size increase, along with a "small" increase in taxes to pay for it, most say, "hell NO!". Right or wrong this is just the way it is, the tax payer is doing a cost analysis in his head, and he doesn't think it is worth the extra money he'll be spending, or maybe he likes his local PD now. One thing is for sure-most Tax Payers don't like tax hikes, those that don't pay taxes, but suck of the public tit, they don't care.
Last thought, I again stand corrected, most if not all PD's don't have an SOP regarding maximum day/night/inclement WX range for their "sniper" to take a shot, thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Paw Print, It is now painfully clear you have no idea what you are talking about and rather than have a healthy debate you simply want to argue.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Taking things out of context always works...

Saying a cartridge would be useful against barricaded suspects in build up bunkers, like when the man in Greeley, Co fortified a bulldozer to knock a city down is different than saying they are using the weapon for a 1 mile shot. But changing the narrative is a creative way to play devil's advocate.

Sure, the effective range of a 338LM maybe extend beyond the needs of a US Police Department, however the penetrating power at close range can be a very useful tool. Dallas PD were ready to deploy a .50 to stop a suspect in a semi truck, that was not needed because they talked him out, however if it was, isn't it better to have than to not have. It's a tool, and I have yet to see someone advocating taking a 1 mile shot, but it's easy to see the need to penetrate a barricade / bunker type situation. Same short range, much more power and penetration necessary.

Also not to long ago, Virginia State Police solved a problem with a sniper shot beyond 500 yards. It doesn't necessarily change the "average" but averages rarely tell the whole story. Again, do you let him go, or employ the appropriate tool.

As a tax payer, I am all for having the tools as opposed to not having them. Everyone knows they waste enough money on frivolous things so why not give them the tools necessary to win, so if an LA Bank Type Heist unfolds in Suburbia they can handle it without unnecessarily prolonging the pain. You have to remember, we have record unemployment, combat operations for over an decade, lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, not to mention known gang members have joined the military to receive on the job training. If that is turned against the average PD, lots of lives could be lost if they are not properly prepared.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

cowboy is clear you like to make noise without substance! If I have stated one thing that was not fact, please point it out, I don't have any trouble admitting I am in error, for example, it has been pointed out on this string alone, that PD's don't have operational SOP's regarding max range for the employment of their snipers, I admitted I was in error, what more could you want. On the other hand, I have the balls to state challengeable facts, you do not. I have quoted experts, you have not..... noise.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Ya, Noise Andrew, what do you know, silly, you only work as an active duty Police Sniper with a training component, it's only your job, so stop making noise on the interwebs...

Heck just yesterday I was Googling "firearms expert" and out of 5+ millions links i didn't see your name in any of them. Loser.

Quotes/Facts and Figures off the internet are much more substantial than doing the job, duh, everyone know Google beats the real world every time. It's faster too, cause Google is everywhere including on my phone and as you know, there is never a cop around when you need one.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

You are so wrong, fact and figures are of great importance, it is painfully obvious that any attempt to rely on facts, figures, studies, or experts you don't like, makes one a looser. I guess, dope smoking, high-school drop out, oh and maybe a pack of kids out of wedlock makes you a winner? I'll go with facts, figures, averages, math, science, and real experts, sorry your noise just makes my point!

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

For those that say, "they waste money on other things...." looser type statement. Winner type statement, "they should not waste Tax Money on anything". Hope you can see the difference. I googled, Common Sense, millions of hits, sorry your name didn't come up.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Paw Print I agree with you, I have been telling Cowboy Bravo for years he is just noise, or was that nose, Schnozfu Master, what the hell is that, Nosejitsu is that even a word?

You keep rocking the stats Paw Print, I'm with you...

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Paw Print, I fail to understand the logic of your argument that training, whether it be for LE or anyone else for that matter, should only focus on the past and not take into consideration what may unfold in the future.

Before the Columbine incident very few LE agencies trained for an active shooter incident outside of their tactical teams. When that day came the officers did exactly what they had previously been trained to do and it cost a lot of children their lives. Sweeping changes were made and now most LE agencies train all of their officers for active shooter situations.

Why is it the you feel LE must sit back and wait for something tragic to occur before taking steps to prepare for it? We argued for patrol rifles for several years when I was with the Sheriff's Department. Your logic was prevalent and we were not allowed to begin a program. Then a friend of mine was killed by an asshole with a rifle and guess what? We got our rifle program.

Our sister agency was attempting to get a patrol rile program when we got ours but their administrators used your mentality and they couldn't have them. Then one of their officers was killed by another asshole with a rifle and guess what? They finally got a patrol rifle program. Makes a shit pot full of sense doesn't it?

The point is that it is entirely within the realm of possibility that this country will see terrorist actions on our soil within our lifetimes. Why should we sit on our asses, ignore the writing on the wall and try to convince ourselves that only the bad shit that has already happened will happen again and there is nothing new under the sun to be concerned about?

No one here is asking for cruise missiles or tanks. What has happened in the past or whatever averages you can dig up matter not when an innocent person is at risk and those who are supposed to help them are unable because "that couldn't possibly happen here because it hasn't already".

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Wow, Paw Print... You got me. Damn and I thought I had everyone fooled.

I have been a member of the ASA since 2004, I own each of their surveys and refer to them often. The fact is you only cite the facts that support whatever point you have been trying to make. You must take the entire ASA report as a whole, don't just pick and choose. Keep in mind the survey only has information provided to them from agencies willing to participate. All of the information of every LE sniper engagement is not in there. Lastly, ASA survey is not gospel, it is simply reference material.

It sounds like you are nothing more than a concerned tax payer. I was under the impression you were in some fashion affiliated with LE and knew what you were talking about. Since you have no real LE Sniper experience why are you getting your panties all in a bunch? Just write your local council person and stop posting your cut and paste dribble and half facts on forums.

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Cowboy, Frank and Phil, Pawprint was over on Sniper Central doing same crap. Think of him as Stupipedia or a future Super Ball, when you get tired and bounce him. He reads something and pretends its his.

His agenda will become painfully obvious over a few posts.

Cowboy, you really need to find his stuff on the Camp Perry Police Sniper Comps. I think Homeboy read about the "Police" Special classes and thought they had us there with our sniper gear. Then you might like him asking if "The Ultimate Sniper" was a good book? Just a ton of fun.

 

[pawprint]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, Paw Print... You got me. Damn and I thought I had everyone fooled.

I have been a member of the ASA since 2004, I own each of their surveys and refer to them often. The fact is you only cite the facts that support whatever point you have been trying to make. You must take the entire ASA report as a whole, don't just pick and choose. Keep in mind the survey only has information provided to them from agencies willing to participate. All of the information of every LE sniper engagement is not in there. Lastly, ASA survey is not gospel, it is simply reference material.

It sounds like you are nothing more than a concerned tax payer. I was under the impression you were in some fashion affiliated with LE and knew what you were talking about. Since you have no real LE Sniper experience why are you getting your panties all in a bunch? Just write your local council person and stop posting your cut and paste dribble and half facts on forums.
</div></div>"nothing more than a concerned tax payer", please, that is another way of saying, as one of the guys paying for it, I would like to know I'm getting your money's worth. I do not have any LE Sniper Experience. I referenced some of the ASA's studies, as it is the only study on the subject I could find. I have asked those that dispute it, to (please) post any other authoratative study to the contrary, as of yet no one has done so. When faced with an argument, or difference of opinion, I believe in presenting high quality facts to support my opinion, other do not, as their opinion is, in their mind, the last word. My "journey" into this [LE Snipers] came about because I am a shooter, and I have been on an advisory board to our mayor. When cost of weapons and training came up, of course being an old soldier, I was very much supportive, but in order to spend money, "new money" in a budget, justification must accompany such requests, and be ready to answer to aldermen etc., I don't anything about your dept. or your city govt.,however; here our aldermen are fairly sharp, and tight with a dollar-as they should be. After some research, and several lunches with our Chief, I concluded, the new money request was not warranted, but money for high grade NV and Thermal would have a hugh effect on the efficacy of the equipment we now have. Furthermore, I concluded, but again, this was not my opinion, but rather a compilation of experts from around the country, the use of the new equipment, NV and Thermal could be used often, where as, sniper rifles had only one use. I am not opposed to the spending of tax money, if needed, or if cost analysis shows a reasonable return, I am opposed to the spending of tax money that is "betting on the come", with little factual support. It would be like buying snow plows in an area that has never had any snow, or was only likely to have snow once every 20 years-Atlanta is a good example. Yea they got hit, but what would it have cost to have a fleet of snow plows sitting around rusting for 20 years, just in case? I have no actual snow plow experience, but I do have experience in spending money and paying taxes, gives me a dog in the fight. I have stated many times in this thread, and will do so again, if a dept has a real need for a given piece of equipment, by all means they should have it, the key is real need. Regarding the ASA's report (I think its every two or three years now) it may not include every last PD in the country, but they did a fine job, in fact my hat's off to them for their fine work. It appears many people don't like their work, as it doesn't mesh with their ideas. I was surprised,I actually thought many of the professionals would have been glad to finally have a well done report, to help them in guiding their dept/training/equipment purchasing etc., but politics seems to override facts-sometimes. I didn't want to get into a pissing contest and/or name calling contest, so I offer an apology for doing so earlier. Regarding quoting "bits and pieces", yes, but only in so far as the entire reports would take many pages, but I post my source for those that have doubts regarding their authenticity, and have not presented them as my own, but rather how I have come to have this opinion.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can see an attorney "eating the lunch" of a guy that says he has won x amount of Tactical Competitions, and shoots x amount of rounds/month at a given ranges, when his Departmental SOP forbids a shot over 100 yards.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Less than 400 actual police sniper shots taken in the course of duty for over 10 years-nation wide</div></div>

Where are you getting your information? Have you actually READ the Sniper Utilization Survey, spoken with anyone who had a hand in compiling it or applied any critical thinking to it?

Do you have any case law to support any of your assumptions?

Have you had any firsthand contact with any LE Agency and their Sniper Training Programs?

I am guessing you are one of these guys who reads about a subject, then feels he is an expert in it.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

Ok, nevermind. You read one report and felt qualified to advise a small town government on what equipment it's professionals need.

I guess that really tells us all we need to know about you.

 

[stefan73]

Re: LE Snipers Using Semi-Auto

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Taking things out of context always works...

Saying a cartridge would be useful against barricaded suspects in build up bunkers, like when the man in Greeley, Co fortified a bulldozer to knock a city down is different than saying they are using the weapon for a 1 mile shot. But changing the narrative is a creative way to play devil's advocate.

Sure, the effective range of a 338LM maybe extend beyond the needs of a US Police Department, however the penetrating power at close range can be a very useful tool. Dallas PD were ready to deploy a .50 to stop a suspect in a semi truck, that was not needed because they talked him out, however if it was, isn't it better to have than to not have. It's a tool, and I have yet to see someone advocating taking a 1 mile shot, but it's easy to see the need to penetrate a barricade / bunker type situation. Same short range, much more power and penetration necessary.

Also not to long ago, Virginia State Police solved a problem with a sniper shot beyond 500 yards. It doesn't necessarily change the "average" but averages rarely tell the whole story. Again, do you let him go, or employ the appropriate tool.

As a tax payer, I am all for having the tools as opposed to not having them. Everyone knows they waste enough money on frivolous things so why not give them the tools necessary to win, so if an LA Bank Type Heist unfolds in Suburbia they can handle it without unnecessarily prolonging the pain. You have to remember, we have record unemployment, combat operations for over an decade, lots of returning vets who have the skills to kill, not to mention known gang members have joined the military to receive on the job training. If that is turned against the average PD, lots of lives could be lost if they are not properly prepared. </div></div>

Because the returning military vets are psycho

?

To be blunt, everybody has the ability/skills to kill. The training does make someone a bit more lethal but if someone really wanted to kill another person and was smart they most likely would accomplish their goals wether or not a police department had a MK-19 or a M1A2 SEP Tank. Law enforcement is reactionary, if people didn't commit crimes you wouldn't have jobs just like if people didn't start wars I would be out of a job. I know that police work to catch criminals but they are criminals because they have committed a crime (chicken before the egg, egg before the chicken).

Killing is easy and if your bored you could spend a couple of lifetimes counting the ways it could be done. It does pain me to see something like "that" posted and I understand there is an incident that I had seen of a gang member who had shot I believe two police officers. Even if the dept had a fifty or a semi or even a cruise missile the result of that incident would have been the same!
Paw does have some merrit in regards to the liability part of employing systems. It could get expensive if someone screws up which is always a threat but it does beg to question why a city police dept. operating in a urban center would require the use of a fifty? Honestly I could care less if they have one or a Mk-19 for that matter but he does have a point that you might need to consider if you plan to try and justify it necessity and saying "because I possibly, might need it" is probably not going to cut it.

I think the shooting done by Whitman at UT would be a good example of why a LE agency could/might have a need for a higher powered system for barrier penetration.


In regards to the suspect in a semi truck, why couldn't they use road spikes? Are semi truck tires impervious to puncture? Why didn't they utilize other tools that they had available or did they not have that? Bringing a fifty to stop a truck seems like someones idea of fun versus being smart. Maybe they could have gotten bulldozer boy to stop it?

The bulldozer one I could see using a fifty but once again in the urban environment it is a lot of liability and how many shots would it take to hit the operator who is more than likely concealed behind the armor in a moving vehicle? There is a lot of factors for employment which you of all people know about.

Just my .02