Rifle Scopes LEOs chime in please

[jerseymike]

What are you guys using? my AO is an urban/city environment. So engagement distance would not exceed 200 yds.Plus dept SOPs dont let us get off shots that far. The glass will be going on a .308 rem 700. im really debating on whether or not a S&B, premier or other extremely high end glass would be necessary. Ive used MK4s and Nightforces but perhaps would like to try something different.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: LEOs chime in please

hey sir

i am not an LEO but have you considered the nightforce 2.5-10x36 or the leupold 3.5-10x40 m1 front focal plane scope?


they would seem to fit the bill to me , good field of view, convering entry teams, reliable, large internal moa's, 30mm tube

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are you guys using? my AO is an urban/city environment. So engagement distance would not exceed 200 yds.Plus dept SOPs dont let us get off shots that far. The glass will be going on a .308 rem 700. im really debating on whether or not a S&B, premier or other extremely high end glass would be necessary. Ive used MK4s and Nightforces but perhaps would like to try something different. </div></div>

To say that a Leupold would not be sufficient isn't accurate but better quality glass is beneficial particularly during low light operations. We have 10 Leupolds, one NF, one S&B and I use a USO. When we shoot low light the Leupold scopes are useless several minutes before the others.

Never say never as far as maximum engagement distances. Commanders can and have authorized actions outside of SOP's in the heat of the moment. We are in a predominantly urban/suburban environment here and often find it challenging to find a hide more than 50 yards out but we also have a few details a year where the potential for shots out to 700+ yards are possible. Highly unlikely but possible.

Prepare and train for the worst, hope for the best. Buy the best you can afford and odds are you will not regret it. You can't have gear that is too good and the life you may save with it could be someone you love.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are you guys using? my AO is an urban/city environment. So engagement distance would not exceed 200 yds.Plus dept SOPs dont let us get off shots that far. The glass will be going on a .308 rem 700. im really debating on whether or not a S&B, premier or other extremely high end glass would be necessary. Ive used MK4s and Nightforces but perhaps would like to try something different. </div></div>

To say that a Leupold would not be sufficient isn't accurate but better quality glass is beneficial particularly during low light operations. We have 10 Leupolds, one NF, one S&B and I use a USO. When we shoot low light the Leupold scopes are useless several minutes before the others.

Never say never as far as maximum engagement distances. Commanders can and have authorized actions outside of SOP's in the heat of the moment. We are in a predominantly urban/suburban environment here and often find it challenging to find a hide more than 50 yards out but we also have a few details a year where the potential for shots out to 700+ yards are possible. Highly unlikely but possible.

Prepare and train for the worst, hope for the best. Buy the best you can afford and odds are you will not regret it. You can't have gear that is too good and the life you may save with it could be someone you love. </div></div>

Very well put, now as far as SFP and FFP is concerned, would you find it necessary to have a FFP for LE operations?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I use a 3.2-17x USO SN-3.

We just received 3 Leupold Mk4 4.5-14x50.

Phylodog is accurate in his assessment. While close range engagements may be the norm, if the opportunity requires a long shot, you better have trained for it.

So the goal is to keep the short range capability without sacrificing long range precision.

If you are able to get an S&B or Premier, then I think you would be setting yourself up for the best outcome possible.

I prefer FFP for several reasons. The biggest is that holding for wind or elevation becomes a no-brainer. When I set up in a hide I adjust my magnification so I can see what I need to see. I don't want to also have to worry about at what magnification my holds are correct at. If you suddenly need to lead a moving target to make the shot, did you remember to reset your power? Or are you hoping that in the heat of the moment you will remember that you are at half of your maximum magnification so that one mil lead is actually two mils?

Now an FFP reticle almost requires illumination if you want to use it in low-light.

Train and prepare for the worst. That way when the worst happens, you will be at your best.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I heard Clint Smith say something to the effect of why wouldn't you want your local PD to have the very best of everything, including training? What if it was one of your family member's life that depended on it?

I have used that line of logic on several within the community that complained about some of the gear they see.

Good luck

 

[Froggy1129]

Re: LEOs chime in please

If you have the budget, get the best.

Justin

 

[jerseymike]

Re: LEOs chime in please

who is actuality is using the ret for ranging in the field, or just hit the target with a LRF. Sorry for the all the questions, ive always been on entry teams and kind of new to the DM role

 

[shane45]

Re: LEOs chime in please

What about something like the USO 1.5X6 with JNG ret?

 

[gugubica]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who is actuality is using the ret for ranging in the field, or just hit the target with a LRF. Sorry for the all the questions, ive always been on entry teams and kind of new to the DM role </div></div>

Nobody, BUT, if you ever have to shoot a mover...FFP. If you ever have to hold for a wind gust or dip...FFP. If you ever have to engage an instantanious second target at different distance (hold over)...FFP. Etc.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who is actuality is using the ret for ranging in the field, or just hit the target with a LRF. </div></div>

On callouts we are usually under 100 yards. In that case I may or may not range the target. I don't have an issued LRF and the T&E model I have will be going back. So until I can save for a Swaro, it's ranging know size targets and cross checking with Google Maps. Got to love the iPhone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about something like the USO 1.5X6 with JNG ret? </div></div>

It will work for most urban applications. However you have to remember that we are not shooting at suspected bad guys. We as LEOs are only authorized to shoot at a deadly threat. So is that a cell phone or a gun? A mistake of that magnitude will cost more than any scope discussed here.

I like high magnification because I can zoom in to see details, then zoom back out for a larger FOV. When he pops out that door I don't want to have to dig around for a spotting scope to ID what's in his hand. I have had a suspect point his cell phone like a gun before. Many times we deploy with just another patrol officer. He is not a trained observer. He just acts as my RTO and rear security. It's not optimal, but sometimes that's all you got.

 

[SWFA]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Our new SS 3-9x42 FFP, .10 mrad, is really nice on a LTR. We've sold quite a few to L.E.

 

[zenghost]

Re: LEOs chime in please

The best you can afford after plenty of research seems to be the best route to avoiding disappointment with these types of acquisitions (in my experience).

 

[nickw]

Re: LEOs chime in please

We ran the Nightforce 3.5-15X50, mildot, 1/4moa elevation on our Rem 700Ps. Loved the optic. Got to shoot some Leupolds and liked the NF much more. We used a 100 yard zero and knew our elevation / dope changes from 25 to 400 yards in 50 yard increments. We were issued a LRF. Laser the threat, dial your dope, hold center. The mildots were not used for hold-overs or distance calculations. The ill reticle was great in low light and a must have, IMHO. If you plan on dialing your elevation, then a FFP optic isn't necessary. That said, they have their advantages as has been mentioned above. I agree with purchasing the best optic you can afford. If you have a chance to shoot with some different optics, including FFP and SFP, before you buy, that would be best case scenario. Whatever optic you go with, learn it inside and out. Good luck and stay safe. Nick-

 

[700M1]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I have a Leupold LR 3.5-10 by 40 and its been great. NF and US Optics glass would be OUTSTANDING but many departments/officers show little interest for getting better glass.

I believe that the US Optics variable model with the low setting of 1.8 would be great for urban police operations.

FWIW.

 

[LH]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I work for a large Dept. in a very urban environment. Our teams snipers use Leupold Mk4 3.5-10x40mm scopes, however there are still a few fixed 10x Mk4's still being used.
You would be well served with a Nightforce 3.5-15x50mm with whatever reticle your team prefers or a Leupold Mk4 3.5-10x40mm scope.

Snipers....especially LE snipers are put at a disadvantage with fixed power scopes. A straight 10x is way too much magnification for a moving perp with a hostage at 35 yards, or an across the street head shot through a window at a barricaded perp who rapidly presents himself and threatens your entry team. There are some who would argue that less magnification than 3.5x would be better for such close and fast engagements. I have a Nightforce 2.5-10x NXS scope on a personal RECCE rifle. It is a great scope but I think you'd be better served with a wider field of view than the 24mm objective lens can provide.

The scope is going on a sniper rifle that is going to be used "for real", not on a hobby gun. Don't short change yourself by putting sub standard glass on it. You get what you pay for and the extra dollars spent on the very best equipment is never a waste.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Some of the shooters in your AO will hopefully pipe in and offer you hands on exp. with a USO/SB/Premier....... Best case scenario. (or find a comp that you could attend/crash)

Anyone, bueller.....bueller

 

[selfbowhunter]

Re: LEOs chime in please

when i was still playing in your field, i went through the same situation but i was on limited funds. my department was smaller and our team worked the whole county. the issue rifle had a 10x leupold. i originally bought a 14x leupold for my rifle. neither was mk IV but both suffered from lagging scope adjustments which drove me crazy and i felt was not in any way acceptable. i did a lot of drills going from 100, 200, 300, in and out. lots of adjustments. i always found the leupolds needed at least one round to settle into a solid zero. the BR boys will tell you the same thing. that is why they freeze their scopes and use external adjustments. i have been told the mkIV addresses this issue with twin erector tube springs. i got rid of the leupolds and went to a zeiss 14x conquest with target turrets. i could count on that scope to move as it was supposed to EVERY time. lots of people will scoff at the 1" tube. for the most part in an urban setting, the 1" tube will serve you quite well. the average distance of engagement is 70yds i think. in your situation i would go for precise adjustments over glass. if you can afford it, get both.

chuck

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Premier is an excellent choice as is U.S. Optics. Also consider this one (50 moa internal adjustment so its not a thousand yard scope) but its a good choice for the money, better glass than Nightforce.

http://swfa.com/Trijicon-5-20x50-Accu-Point-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P12887.aspx

If you dont feel a need for illumination the two new Super Sniper models are worth about double what they cost and are very reliable. While 10x is a bit much for under 100yds the 3-9x42 FFP is a real nice reliable scope with better feel than my Leu Mk 4.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Thanks for the input guys! Ive had many members PM around my area, so I plan on taking up their offers to view the scopes they have. I am primarily looking to "step up" (if thats what you you want to call it) from my MK4 and nightforce to a s&b, premeier, or USO, I really like the 3.2-17 USO but i gave them a call and the wait is still 16-20. Hopefully I get a chance to view them all then i can decide from there. Our dept is new to the sniper scene so its pretty much like starting from scratch.

 

[sgtusmc_nc]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Swat guy here from NC, our snipers use Leupold mk 4's on our squad rifles and Leupold scopes max 10 power on bolt guns.

There are better scopes out there but, ours get beat up real good and never fail. I dont think you could go wrong with a Leupold. with the money you could save you could get smith work done on your guns or by a simrad. we have 2 which takes the problem out of low light and night fire.

 

[BoomStix]

Re: LEOs chime in please

Does anybody know if Super Sniper is planning on coming out with a higher power variable scope?

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoomStix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody know if Super Sniper is planning on coming out with a higher power variable scope? </div></div>
Yea and wiht a low power variable and a fixed 6x but it could be a couple of years on the variables the 6x will be out probably late this year.

If you guys can afford the scope the Heinsoldt is the Tactical Zeiss scope and it is absolutely fantastic. http://swfa.com/Zeiss-Tactical-Hensoldt-Telescopic-Sights-C1950.aspx

 

[specopsbrooklyn]

Re: LEOs chime in please

my dept is just switching over to MK4 3.5x10 we where usining fixed 10x the 3.5x10 is not a FFP but in an leo setting I am not worring about using the mil dots to range as much as my military days as my partner and I both have lazer range finders with spare batteries in are kit

 

[lrrifle]

Re: LEOs chime in please

We are all using the Mk4 4.5x14x50. Others may scoff, but mine (personally owned w/TMR reticle) it totally repeatable and solid. (Most of the department issued ones have Premier reticle upgrades from years ago.) Granted, my eyes are not young, and my NF is clearer, but I don't feel "under-optic'ed" with the Mk 4. Others on our team aren't so enamored with theirs!

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LEOs chime in please

My team is myself and another officer from a deferent department as far as equipment goes im on my own but they provide ammo so right now im on the quest to find good reliable glass on a budget as fare as range goes could be anywhere from 25 yards to rural settings ive seen 400 yard driveways and no cover in my county

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LEOs chime in please

What kind of "budget"?

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LEOs chime in please

about 250 to 300

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I used a Leupold 4.5 - 14 for years on my duty rifle. Good low end, good high end power.

We've since one to NF 3.5 - 15. Same deal. Good power range for the kind of stuff we do.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LEOs chime in please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deputy5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 250 to 300 </div></div>

That's pretty low for good, reliable, duty quality glass.

I would look for an older Leupold in either a low magnification fixed or a low power variable. Stay away from high power optics in your price range. Generally glass quality suffers at the higher powers and if the image quality is ok then they probably cut corners in other areas.

Check with Burris. They offer a DEEP LE discount. It will allow you to maximize your money. I have not used any of their "tactical" style scopes, but I have not heard any bad about them either.

Whatever you choose, MAKE SURE you run a tracking test and put it through it's paces before you OK it for operational use.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LEOs chime in please

I was thinking about going the burris route i can get a good scopoe from them i was thinking about trying one of their XTR scopes my partntner has one on his department issued rifle(his department supplyed him whit rifle and scope, my department did not) i think ill end up just saving up for one. but if i up my price to 400 or so i could get the burris fullfield tac30 that is with burris LE discount