Let's solve this savage dbm problem

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I had a CNC and the know how...
DK</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this is the main reason it isn't done yet. We're all running just a wee tad short of the 5 figure requirement to purchase a CNC for one DBM model hehe.

Something else I figured out as to why the SSS mags cost so much. I'm fairly certain that they're probably being made out of 7075AL, which is about as expensive as you can get. Whereas that 36" piece I linked earlier cost $40, a 12" piece of 7075 with the closest rough dimensions, costs $120. You get about 5 mag boxes out of that, so that puts a material cost of $24 per box. Add in the ~$40 cost of a standard Savage mag(if you can find one) and you're looking at $60-70 at the start. Which makes $80(if you're the manufacturer) a crappy labor profit.

So the thing to do, for me anyway, is find out how much torture non-7075 aluminum can take when it has a decent wall thickness.

 

[Cascade Precision]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So the thing to do, for me anyway, is find out how much torture non-7075 aluminum can take when it has a decent wall thickness. </div></div>

Honestly, how much abuse from firing does a magazine take? Especially from the hard-pounding .308?

 

[deadeye]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I had a CNC and the know how...
DK</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this is the main reason it isn't done yet. We're all running just a wee tad short of the 5 figure requirement to purchase a CNC for one DBM model hehe.

Something else I figured out as to why the SSS mags cost so much. I'm fairly certain that they're probably being made out of 7075AL, which is about as expensive as you can get. Whereas that 36" piece I linked earlier cost $40, a 12" piece of 7075 with the closest rough dimensions, costs $120. You get about 5 mag boxes out of that, so that puts a material cost of $24 per box. Add in the ~$40 cost of a standard Savage mag(if you can find one) and you're looking at $60-70 at the start. Which makes $80(if you're the manufacturer) a crappy labor profit.

So the thing to do, for me anyway, is find out how much torture non-7075 aluminum can take when it has a decent wall thickness. </div></div>

OK - I have been holding out as long as I can stand it. The above is very clear - there really isn't much money to be made at this.

Sooo - No promises but.....

I have the CNC and ability but don't have a lot of time to re-invent the wheel. SSS mags are near impossible to purchase in a timely manner. If anyone has one from them they are willing to either draw up complete in ACAD or loan it to me to do the same. I will see what I can do <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">but</span> it has to be worth my machining time </span>as I have just completed a new shop and everything coming out of it has to turn at least a little profit.

I have my 07 FFL so I can manufacture firearms and parts though I don't believe it is needed in this case.

I have been doing GunKote finishing for years so I can finish them with that or I also have access to a local place to anodize but would have to be a large batch to offset cost as they charge a setup fee per run.

I also can check on casting before machining as there is a local place for that also - may save money do to less machining, maybe not do to higher cost of material - will have to look into it when I have a sample to show them.

Next would be to say, I would produce the bottom "extension" for you to add to your own mag - that would save a little for each of you as you probably already have a mag or two available.

I can also machine/engrave almost anything on the side to make them sharp looking for those that would want to pay a little more for customizing.

Lastly - The longer spring would have to be checked into. I don't currently have a supplier of them but it is a necessary part for this to work.

Thoughts and ideas??

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I wish I had some pull at Savage... this would be a non-issue.

DK

 

[Rainier42]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I had a CNC and the know how...
DK</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this is the main reason it isn't done yet. We're all running just a wee tad short of the 5 figure requirement to purchase a CNC for one DBM model hehe.

Something else I figured out as to why the SSS mags cost so much. I'm fairly certain that they're probably being made out of 7075AL, which is about as expensive as you can get. Whereas that 36" piece I linked earlier cost $40, a 12" piece of 7075 with the closest rough dimensions, costs $120. You get about 5 mag boxes out of that, so that puts a material cost of $24 per box. Add in the ~$40 cost of a standard Savage mag(if you can find one) and you're looking at $60-70 at the start. Which makes $80(if you're the manufacturer) a crappy labor profit.

So the thing to do, for me anyway, is find out how much torture non-7075 aluminum can take when it has a decent wall thickness. </div></div>

OK - I have been holding out as long as I can stand it. The above is very clear - there really isn't much money to be made at this.

Sooo - No promises but.....

I have the CNC and ability but don't have a lot of time to re-invent the wheel. SSS mags are near impossible to purchase in a timely manner. If anyone has one from them they are willing to either draw up complete in ACAD or loan it to me to do the same. I will see what I can do <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">but</span> it has to be worth my machining time </span>as I have just completed a new shop and everything coming out of it has to turn at least a little profit.

I have my 07 FFL so I can manufacture firearms and parts though I don't believe it is needed in this case.

I have been doing GunKote finishing for years so I can finish them with that or I also have access to a local place to anodize but would have to be a large batch to offset cost as they charge a setup fee per run.

I also can check on casting before machining as there is a local place for that also - may save money do to less machining, maybe not do to higher cost of material - will have to look into it when I have a sample to show them.

Next would be to say, I would produce the bottom "extension" for you to add to your own mag - that would save a little for each of you as you probably already have a mag or two available.

I can also machine/engrave almost anything on the side to make them sharp looking for those that would want to pay a little more for customizing.

Lastly - The longer spring would have to be checked into. I don't currently have a supplier of them but it is a necessary part for this to work.

Thoughts and ideas?? </div></div>

you machine them and we'll but them.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

remember that there is one company making these SSS knockoffs already. they are charging $200 australian for them. the link is posted in this thread.

 

[TravisP]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

tag

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

So how much does the $200 Australian equate to USD... sounds pretty pricey to me.

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Nevermind... it's 202.858 USD

Like I said... pricey. I think I would rather do the wait/wish/want stuff from SSS.

DK

 

[akmike]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I had a CNC and the know how...
DK</div></div>

I'm pretty sure this is the main reason it isn't done yet. We're all running just a wee tad short of the 5 figure requirement to purchase a CNC for one DBM model hehe.

Something else I figured out as to why the SSS mags cost so much. I'm fairly certain that they're probably being made out of 7075AL, which is about as expensive as you can get. Whereas that 36" piece I linked earlier cost $40, a 12" piece of 7075 with the closest rough dimensions, costs $120. You get about 5 mag boxes out of that, so that puts a material cost of $24 per box. Add in the ~$40 cost of a standard Savage mag(if you can find one) and you're looking at $60-70 at the start. Which makes $80(if you're the manufacturer) a crappy labor profit.

So the thing to do, for me anyway, is find out how much torture non-7075 aluminum can take when it has a decent wall thickness. </div></div>

OK - I have been holding out as long as I can stand it. The above is very clear - there really isn't much money to be made at this.

Sooo - No promises but.....

I have the CNC and ability but don't have a lot of time to re-invent the wheel. SSS mags are near impossible to purchase in a timely manner. If anyone has one from them they are willing to either draw up complete in ACAD or loan it to me to do the same. I will see what I can do <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">but</span> it has to be worth my machining time </span>as I have just completed a new shop and everything coming out of it has to turn at least a little profit.

I have my 07 FFL so I can manufacture firearms and parts though I don't believe it is needed in this case.

I have been doing GunKote finishing for years so I can finish them with that or I also have access to a local place to anodize but would have to be a large batch to offset cost as they charge a setup fee per run.

I also can check on casting before machining as there is a local place for that also - may save money do to less machining, maybe not do to higher cost of material - will have to look into it when I have a sample to show them.

Next would be to say, I would produce the bottom "extension" for you to add to your own mag - that would save a little for each of you as you probably already have a mag or two available.

I can also machine/engrave almost anything on the side to make them sharp looking for those that would want to pay a little more for customizing.

Lastly - The longer spring would have to be checked into. I don't currently have a supplier of them but it is a necessary part for this to work.

Thoughts and ideas?? </div></div>



I wish I had a SSS mag to send you. If you can find a way to produce something similar at a similar price point I'd by happy to buy 3.

 

[deadeye]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I wish I had a SSS mag to send you. If you can find a way to produce something similar at a similar price point I'd by happy to buy 3.</div></div>

Just waiting for someone to loan one or get me a drawing.

 

[juliomorris]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

We need to figure something out because I told SSS to give me my Fing money back because I tired of waiting. If I get a chance I will get you a drawing adn the measurements this weekend. I have been plaing with the idea of making one out of heavey gauge sheet metal and using devcon to join them but then you would not be able to take it apart.

 

[SmokinAce]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: juliomorris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need to figure something out because I told SSS to give me my Fing money back because I tired of waiting. </div></div>

Right there with you! Been waiting over 6 months now for the mag with promises from week 6 that it would just be another week or 2.

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Hmmm. Don't suppose anyone has one of these and a good sheet metal artist. . .

I wasn't even aware these existed, even though they're out of stock. Unless these won't work in the manner I'm thinking. . .

https://store.savagearms.com/magazines-misc-parts-1/magazines/magazine-box-model-10ba.html

I don't understand why Savage would make this and then keep it out of stock. Surely they realize there is demand? Even at $113, you're almost there if you pay $80 to someone else. . .


EDIT: Never mind, I guess they're only for the model 10BA: http://www.cabelas.com/vista-gun-library-savage-mod-10ba-tactical-rifle-package-308.shtml

 

[TravisP]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I have a 10-FCP-K and i would be willing to purchase a couple of them if someone else can start producing. New to here but from what I have learned, I am not even going to try and get any from SSS. Dont know why savage will not make them.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

double stack is the way to go. Factory 308 semi auto mags historically have short OALs. What is the max OAL of the factory mag? Sorry if I missed it. I like to be able to load my rounds near the lands. $0.02

 

[sblanch]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

These are pics of Kevin Rayhill from Stockade Stocks DBM. Quickdraw40 asked me to post them here.

 

[sst04]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are pics of Kevin Rayhill from Stockade Stocks DBM. Quickdraw40 asked me to post them here.

</div></div>


What was the total cost of install and all?

 

[sblanch]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

It's not my rifle. I was asking about them so he sent me the pics.
I think he quoted $250.00.

 

[MitchInOR]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not my rifle. I was asking about them so he sent me the pics.
I think he quoted $250.00.</div></div>

Kevin quoted me $200 installed.

 

[juliomorris]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

If any does start fabricating the boxes put me done for 4 I can find the springs myself.

 

[sblanch]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchinOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not my rifle. I was asking about them so he sent me the pics.
I think he quoted $250.00.</div></div>

Kevin quoted me $200 installed. </div></div>

I'm probably mistaken. It was months ago when we spoke.

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

That system looks really sharp!! As for the $200 installed, that would be much easier to accept than just $200 for a magazine extension. I would be more than willing to go this route, IF that is exactly what I am seeing.

I would be really interested in knowing more about this system.

DK

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 5x5GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are pics of Kevin Rayhill from Stockade Stocks DBM. Quickdraw40 asked me to post them here.

</div></div>

so what mag is that? you know id say any of this is acceptable, but getting a pmag or some other plastic molded 10 round that just fits the factory hole would be great too. but they have to be able to load 3.00" or pretty close like the savage mags. accurate is said to be the maker of the stamped upper part. if thats true, they may have adapted it from something that has higher capacity. or find a bigger mag to hook to the bottom. bigger than the fn mag. i cant use that if i cant load 2.82" rounds in it. i have to load 2.80" stuff for the semi but the bolt is longer


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ten round

Fifteen round

Twenty round

The only thing I don't like about the FAL mag is that the COL is limited to 2.800". In my 10PC, I run them a little longer than that usually.
</div></div>

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Kevin uses AICS mags

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I kinda got tired of waiting around and nothing happening. I found a G3 mag that I had left over from my HK. I started measuring a few things checking it out to see if my idea would work.

I did a little dremel work on the mag body, modified my Savage follower, modified the bottom end of the G3 spring, and cut some tabs, and filed some edges. I belt the tabs outward, and inserted the tabs through the holes in the Savage magazine. It all went together fairly nice. I finished it off by bending the tabs around to use them as the magazine well spacers.

Bottom line is this... I have a FUNCTIONAL 12 ROUND MAGAZINE!! It isnt perfect mind you, but it works. I will be using this idea and purchasing another G3 magazine and taking my time. It should prove to be a better fit in the end, as there is a tad bit of play in the magazine.

DK

 

[reeljob]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I just built this Savage last week and decided to go ahead with Jeff's product. CDI may be pricey but I am very satisfied with the product and quality and Jeff is a great guy to deal with. This is a five rounder but a ten will be on its way soon.

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I kinda got tired of waiting around and nothing happening. I found a G3 mag that I had left over from my HK. I started measuring a few things checking it out to see if my idea would work.

I did a little dremel work on the mag body, modified my Savage follower, modified the bottom end of the G3 spring, and cut some tabs, and filed some edges. I belt the tabs outward, and inserted the tabs through the holes in the Savage magazine. It all went together fairly nice. I finished it off by bending the tabs around to use them as the magazine well spacers.

Bottom line is this... I have a FUNCTIONAL 12 ROUND MAGAZINE!! It isnt perfect mind you, but it works. I will be using this idea and purchasing another G3 magazine and taking my time. It should prove to be a better fit in the end, as there is a tad bit of play in the magazine.

DK

</div></div>

Can you post close-up pics of the mods you did?

It would seem to me that the follower would hang up on the G3 body when being loaded. Are you having any problems loading it?

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

There was only 2 slots that had to be added into the sides of the Savage follower. I did also have to remove some material from the rear of the follower to allow it to slide free inside the G3. None of the mods to the follower change it around enough that it won't work in the factory magazine body.

I will also take some pics of the follower spring from each magazine to show you the basic mods that I did there as well. I will take a few more pics when I get some batteries tomorrow. Again, like I said, it isn't perfect. However, it does function.

It would probably be a better idea to use 2 Savage magazine springs, as opposed to the mix between the G3 and Savage springs. But, I just used what I had here to try it out.

DK

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was only 2 slots that had to be added into the sides of the Savage follower. I did also have to remove some material from the rear of the follower to allow it to slide free inside the G3. None of the mods to the follower change it around enough that it won't work in the factory magazine body.

I will also take some pics of the follower spring from each magazine to show you the basic mods that I did there as well. I will take a few more pics when I get some batteries tomorrow. Again, like I said, it isn't perfect. However, it does function.

It would probably be a better idea to use 2 Savage magazine springs, as opposed to the mix between the G3 and Savage springs. But, I just used what I had here to try it out.

DK </div></div>

Awesome. If you haven't already purchased one, I can mail you a G3 mag for your version 2.0. I bought a stack of aluminum G3 mags when they were dirt cheap and I don't own or desire to own a G3. Just PM me your address and I will get one in the mail asap.

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Wow... now that is really cool of you!! I will be definately taking my time on the next one. Muchly appreciated!!

PM Inbound...

DK

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow... now that is really cool of you!! I will be definately taking my time on the next one. Muchly appreciated!!

PM Inbound...

DK </div></div>

PM Received. Mag going out via USPS.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I kinda got tired of waiting around and nothing happening. I found a G3 mag that I had left over from my HK. I started measuring a few things checking it out to see if my idea would work.

I did a little dremel work on the mag body, modified my Savage follower, modified the bottom end of the G3 spring, and cut some tabs, and filed some edges. I belt the tabs outward, and inserted the tabs through the holes in the Savage magazine. It all went together fairly nice. I finished it off by bending the tabs around to use them as the magazine well spacers.

Bottom line is this... I have a FUNCTIONAL 12 ROUND MAGAZINE!! It isnt perfect mind you, but it works. I will be using this idea and purchasing another G3 magazine and taking my time. It should prove to be a better fit in the end, as there is a tad bit of play in the magazine.

DK

</div></div>


in my mind this is what i thought may solve the FAL mod. sliding the savage over the FAL

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSix</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow... now that is really cool of you!! I will be definately taking my time on the next one. Muchly appreciated!!

PM Inbound...

DK </div></div>

PM Received. Mag going out via USPS. </div></div>

Mag received. Mag modified. Took many pics of the process. Mag functions perfectly!!

I am working on posting the whole process right now, so there will some details to follow.

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

OK, here are the pics of the 10 rounder that I made. I opted for 10 rounds vs. 12, due to the more compact version is what I prefered. It can still be made into a 12 round using the same instructions, you just need to make your cuts on the next ridge line up from the illustrations.

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Continuation of pictures...

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

And here is what it looks like inserted into the mag well. It functions great, it just took some time getting it right. There were a BUNCH of little changes back and forth to make it all happen.

I used another magazine and made it into an "epoxy" modified magazine. I really like it, and it functions PERFECTLY!!

If there is enough interest, I will be making these magazines as a kit for the do-it-yourselfers, or you can send me the factory magazine body and I will make it for you. Just let me know who all is interested!!

DK

 

[akmike]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I think you'll have some interest, I know I am.

Looks like a pretty reasonable solution to what's been a perplexing problem.

 

[Etnie]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Is the modified magazine sturdy when inserted into the mag well?
Can you post some closer pics on the modified mag inserted into the gun by chance?

I'd be interested in some for sure.

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Here are some pics of the epoxy magazine that I was referring to above... check it out!!

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Etnie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the modified magazine sturdy when inserted into the mag well?
Can you post some closer pics on the modified mag inserted into the gun by chance?

I'd be interested in some for sure. </div></div>

The magazine has only a small amount of play from side to side. It honestly is nothing at all to worry about. The only thing that could even bother anyone would be that the magazine rear can be pushed to far into the mag well. As long as you pull the magazine downward to make sure it has seated, there is no problem. When the bolt is closed, this is a non-issue all together.

I will take some other pictures and try to post them tomorrow after work. Thanks for the word of interest. I will be making several of them for myself for sure!!

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Well, as I hit the submit button, I looked at the back of the magazine, and it should be a super easy solution to epoxy a tab on the rear of the magazine to prevent the magazine from being inserted too far, which is what is accomplished via the Savage magazine floorplate.

My mind is always working on this stuff. I can never be satisfied with just "good enough"!!

DK

 

[akmike]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

maybe a stupid question, but I was looking on Cheaper Than Dirt and they show a steel G3 mag for like $2.00. Is that similar to what you are using to make these?

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Yes, those are the same magazines that I used.

DK

 

[stiletto raggio]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Hmmm... This looks excellent. I wonder if a similar mod can be done with FN SPR mags? If so, I think it could be a winner.

 

[Blygy]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Tagged for interest..

 

[bmt]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I am SOOOOO IN.

PM Sent.

BMT

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Interested, but can't find any savage mags anywhere. Anyone have a line on some savage mags?

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Z71- There is a strip of steel going down the front of the G3 mag. Did you remove it, or leave it in?

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I removed the strip of steel to allow as much room inside the magazine for longer rounds. I have the magazine body to where it will accept a round of 2.875 inches. I know that there are alot of shooters that want longer, but unfortunately,I can't please everyone.

I changed out the wrap of electrical tape and included some thin walled rubber tubing. It functions really well, but I have some shrink tubing that will be used instead. I know that the SSS magazines used this method, but they only hold 9 ROUNDS!! LOL!!

Just to show you how the magazine functions, I made a quick video to demonstrate the process.

DK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5DK2C3FEIY