Let's solve this savage dbm problem

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

bump for progress?

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

well as far as I go, I've been out of town and haven't been able to mail my mags yet to ogreshooter...

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I have an FAL magazine that I cut/reformed the feed lips to match the stock Savage mag. Verified dimensions with calipers. I spot welded on a folded piece of sheet metal and got the FAL mag to lock into my 10PC at the proper height. However, I can't get the mag to reliably feed with the FAL follower. It looks like the bump (for lack of a better word) on the FAL follower is much more dramtic than the savage follower and is preventing rounds from reliably puyshing into the center of the feed lips.

I don't want to grind at my stock savage follower since I only have 1 savage mag. Does anyone know a place online where I can buy a savage follower or something similar that I can try to mod to work with the FAL mag?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

use modeling clay to make an impression of the follower and cast it with JBWeld maybe? cast the top part and fix that to the FN follower? also look in the for sale area. i thought someone had a mag with no bottom or mag parts possibly

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Thanks, but I actually just realized that the follower is probably not my problem. I was focusing on the feed lips and neglected how the body of the savage mag has indentations just forward of the feed lips to funnel the rounds towards the center. I'm not sure how I'm going to replicate that in the FAL mag short of fabbing up a male/female jig.

 

[juliomorris]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">use modeling clay to make an impression of the follower and cast it with JBWeld maybe? cast the top part and fix that to the FN follower? also look in the for sale area. i thought someone had a mag with no bottom or mag parts possibly</div></div>

AXE I have a mag and follower you can use and destroy. If it helps you can find the answer to the riddle of a easy fix.

 

[juliomorris]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

If someone wants a follower and mag body for their experiments send me a pm with your address. Hopefully someone will have success and post a how to thread.

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: juliomorris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If someone wants a follower and mag body for their experiments send me a pm with your address. Hopefully someone will have success and post a how to thread. </div></div>

PM Sent!

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Does anyone have a .308 PMAG that they can compare to a savage mag?

They look like they might be the best option for a hybrid design as it looks like their interiors are smooth and would not cause follower issues. I'm just not sure if they match up dimension wise. If they are close, I'll order one to try out.

BTW- I tried a HK91 mag and the FAL mag seems like a better contender.

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I just wish that Savage would make some higher capacity FACTORY magazines for us poor ol cheap Savage Shooters!!

DK

 

[shaman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Subscribing, hoping that the .223 will be next on the list. Don't want to have to buy a Remington just to use the jag magazine kit.

 

[will67]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Has anybody checked the dimensions on the 220 slug gun mag? If it comes apart like the other factory mags it might be a good starting point.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i can get PMAG photos, but there are a bunch of photos online im sure. why dont we send this link to savage? maybe they dont know we want higher capacity mags

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i can get PMAG photos, but there are a bunch of photos online im sure. why dont we send this link to savage? maybe they dont know we want higher capacity mags </div></div>

I could use some pics of a .308 PMAG side-by-side with either a savage mag or a FAL mag. Measurements of internal and external dimensions would be even better, if possible.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2305979#Post2305979

Like the OP thread title says....let's solve the problem with the best solution.

Branden

 

[badbot]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I suggest finding some UHMW, it is plastic but very tuff. white cutting boards are made from it. ebay or local plastic suppliers.
it is almost as slippery as teflon so it should be great as a follower. easy to machine too.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

delrin is good material for followers

 

[badbot]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

does anyone have a mag for the AR10 to mesure? IIRC they were a slight stagger 308 and might be the size we need.
they go for $50 - 60

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i still think the fal mag is the way to go, it just needs follower work

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

there was at one time a kit to modify the M14/M1A mags for the armalite. so im guessing those mags would do as well if you can find them cheaper than armalite mags since your gonna hack them up. im no expert, ive never handled them. here is the deal. im sure that you can find a photo of the savage bottom, the PMAGs and whatever else (im not talking to anyone, just talking) so find the photo, convert to bitmap and use MSDraw to show me where you need measurements to and from and ill get you what you need. i have a 10FCP in an HS and a few 308 PMAGs. i have savage 4 round factory and a SSS 9 rounder. let me know

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Well, I stumbled on this post just looking for Savage threads to read while my normal shooting site is down. I have a 10FCP McMillan to work with myself, and the guy I bought it from threw in one of the 9 round SSS mags.

He showed me when I bought it from him that the bolt drags on the feeder lips, and the mag box itself was a PITA to just load into the mag-well. This thread got me interested, so I racked it out and got to looking.

Here are the main problems I've noticed about my SSS mag(I may be reposting these, sorry if I missed them): The upper portion of the 9rd magazine body is the same as the stock 4rd magazine body.
The lower 9rd magazine body had too much material left on the corners, causing it to grab and not insert easily, as well as making it hard as hell to get out of the magazine well.

As far as making magazines to order, I think the following would work very well, and if I had a machine shop to try it in, I would certainly be trying.

I started my thinking in what seemed to be the easiest direction-machining it out of aluminum extrusion. Unfortunately, looks like it would be difficult to find extruded aluminum that would suit the magazine hard-body in those dimensions(Looking at McMaster Carr's website, which has just about everything known to man).

So I looked at bar stock, and a chunk of 6061 in 1.5"x3.5"x12", which would work dimensionally, runs $39.00(http://www.mcmaster.com/#aluminum/=aqjosr). Allowing for cutting, you could get a minimum of 5 hard-body parts out of the bar(at 9rd dimensions of 2"). If you went about it the same way as the SSS body, there's not much left. Dimensioning the body to a print and machining it. Don't forget the small amount of taper or cant from the front to the rear of the hard body.

The body isn't what's holding the the magazine in(at least I'm basing this off of, looking at mine apart and in the well), it's just keeping it snug and quieter. You'll just want to make sure your exterior dimensions are a few thousandths under the internal mag-well dimensions to assure you have a smooth slide in without excessive rubbing.

With that, there are two problems left, as I see it. Machining the length you want for the desired round count, and ensuring you have a spring that will stand up to it. The top half of the magazine is the easy half, just buying a regular 4 round magazine and using the feeder portion on the top of the SSS type box.

I'm not engineered enough to figure out the length vs round count, one of you guys that uses Solidworks may get that easier than I could.

The springs in the 9 round mag I have are just two normal springs that are heat-shrink wrapped together at the common base, but I'm not sure how getting up around 20 rounds would stack up and work on the spring. I could see maybe needing a follower plate in between the bottom and 2nd spring to keep the follower from flipping internally.

I hope this helps, especially those of you that have access and free time on milling machines. I'm just now going into milling operations in the machinist program I'm in, so I was just trying to contribute a little thought to the problem. I'll try to take some pictures to add to this if you all want, to try to better explain the parts at the stages I mean.

I just can't see paying $80 for the parts from one standard 4rd mag and 1 chunk of aluminum with milling that I think I could come close to pulling off at my noobliness, even after labor.

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Well, I posted that before going over to gunbroker and finding 1 listing with stock mags that you could carnage for the spring/follower/feeder. For the low price of $40 each, before shipping. As long as you can mill out the 5 hard bodies for a material cost of $8 each, that leaves you about $20 towards machining costs before you're getting to SSS' price anyway.

So I guess my version isn't worth much, since the costs run what they do. Or I figured out why SSS' costs so much at least.

ETA: If that's how these are being made, then the high-cap mags here: http://www.cleaverfirearms.com/Paragon%20Tactical%20Equipment.htm are ridiculously overpriced, and someone is murdering wallets. $200 is one heck of an overpriced magazine, even for this.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

those are available in australia. some of the aussie guys posted pics, not sure if its US available. but i agree, $200 is alot if thats the one im thinking of. also i think that SSS may have refined the corners some cause i have two SSS 9 rounders and they both work flawlessly. easy to lock and drop free. never a feed issue yet. most people go CDI

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Yeah I noticed that Axe, but I still can't believe an $80 price tag for one magazine. At the very worst, were I to get to where I can machine out the blocks for the heavy bottom like the SSS mags, I'd try to find a spring supplier and offer it as an upgrade kit for the stock magazine.

At least that way you wouldn't spend so much down time trying to find stock mags just to rip apart for their internals. It's pretty hard to have a rifle and not have a stock mag, and from there, I can't see it being too hard to find a spring steel supplier to fab the other spring as well.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Someone needs to make a DBM that works with both AI and AR-10 mags, that would be the bees knees.

Branden

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ETA: If that's how these are being made, then the high-cap mags here: http://www.cleaverfirearms.com/Paragon%20Tactical%20Equipment.htm are ridiculously overpriced, and someone is murdering wallets. $200 is one heck of an overpriced magazine, even for this. </div></div>

They must be handing out 12 packs of Fosters before giving you that bill at checkout

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon063</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They must be handing out 12 packs of Fosters before giving you that bill at checkout</div></div>

I can guarantee you they won't be handing me that bill, even with 3 12 packs of Fosters!

As it stands, I'm going to set to work dimensioning out the mag I have, get a stick of that 6061 AL that I posted above, and work on fabricating 2 new hard lower mag bodies, 1 to replace the 9rd SSS with a 10rd length, and 1 to adapt onto the factory mag I have for 10 rds.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.R. Sherman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I noticed that Axe, but I still can't believe an $80 price tag for one magazine. At the very worst, were I to get to where I can machine out the blocks for the heavy bottom like the SSS mags, I'd try to find a spring supplier and offer it as an upgrade kit for the stock magazine.

At least that way you wouldn't spend so much down time trying to find stock mags just to rip apart for their internals. It's pretty hard to have a rifle and not have a stock mag, and from there, I can't see it being too hard to find a spring steel supplier to fab the other spring as well. </div></div>

the 4rnd mags are $30-$40 already. SSS used to sell the box and new spring. then they started selling the whole thing. somewhere in this thread i posted who actually makes the savage mags for savage, i cant recall, but its a big name. just the top part. the stock flat bottoms are someone elses. but you gotta figure the top part is figured into the cost.

i think the most attractive option is first, a mag that works with no mods to the factory stuff. so far, there is one. the SSS design. either by SSS or the paragon. i know a place that does casting. i can always ask them about it. but is the box billet or cast or what? any other mag conversion that alters the stock anything commits you to that system. so you need a 4 round for hunting unless everybody buying it is ok with a blocked mag or a big long mag sticking out while your prone.

so second for me at least is anything that modifies the stock system in any way, unless its temporary or a slip in sleeve. thats just me.

sooner or later someone will knock the SSS design off at $80 of so and ill take 5 more

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Hmm. I couldn't find anything you posted about the stock magazine manufacturer, so not sure. I may have just overlooked it, I've read the thread 4 or 5 times and kinda fried on it.

I will agree that the SSS works, I just really honestly hate that anyone has to pay $80 for one mag when we're in the age of rifle shooting that we are.

I'm pretty sure, too, that the SSS box is machined out of billet. All of the milling that I can see makes it look that way at any rate, and I can pretty much visualize each different tool process as well. ETA: I think starting with cast could be easier, but I don't know the cost differences. I'm pretty certain it would take out a lot of time, as milling out .75"x1.8" is going to take a nice little bit of time manual milling.

The big thought for me is, like you say, you want a 4 or 5 round for hunting, but it's nice to have a 10 round for target/bench shooting. That's why I do like just modifying a longer SSS type box, since all you have to do if you want to switch back and forth is remove the feeder top, remove a spring, and switch the box with the normal bottom/vice versa.

If I were in SSS' shoes, that's what I would have done, with a little crappy 2 sheet paper manual to throw in. New box, extra spring, and just leave it at that. It's when you try to throw in the bells and whistles that it gets complicated, especially if you're using somebody else's whistles.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

but remember also, guys are adding the CDI bottom metal and gladly paying around $80 for the AI style mags. so the price point isnt that far off. ill see if i can find the place that makes the top part of the mags

the company is accurate magazine. thats who makes the top part

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I don't think its the cost of the box extension at all, obviously if SSS sells 60 of them before they have them, it isn't an issue. it's the wait time vs. the cost of the cdi to just get it over with. and again, as i've said before, the new 4.4" WITH THE TRIGGER GAURD BOLT RELEASE limits your options greatly. If my savage had the upper bolt release, I would've just done the cdi a long time ago...

 

[sdunshee]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Hey guys, new to this forum. Was reading this thread with great interest as I am in the market for a hicap. Dbm for my 10flcp-k. I have a 30rd m14 I can donate to the cause if anyone thinks it might be helpful...dont know why I bought it anyhow, too damn long and really heavy when loaded. It is a brand new mag that doesn't feed for crap so im not upset if someone wants to hack it to pieces. Let me know, PM me with your address and i'll get it in the mail ASAP!!! Thanks, Scotty D.

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon063</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think its the cost of the box extension at all, obviously if SSS sells 60 of them before they have them, it isn't an issue. it's the wait time vs. the cost of the cdi to just get it over with. and again, as i've said before, the new 4.4" WITH THE TRIGGER GAURD BOLT RELEASE limits your options greatly. If my savage had the upper bolt release, I would've just done the cdi a long time ago...</div></div>

I agree with you on that Spoon. I guess really I'm trying to think laterally you might say, as mainly I absolutely hate the thought that a large group of people are effectively being forced to make an upgrade at a substantial cost(i.e. CDI or custom DBM) or pay $80 for half of a piece of work for a larger mag.

If I can talk someone(i.e. my wife) into letting me buy a bench top mill that I can work on in my shed, I guarantee that I will work out a way to at least be able to do a quick change with a stock magazine and have 9-10 round capacity. I can also guarantee you that if I figure it out, it ain't going to cost $80.

Scotty, you might try Spoon or Ogre, looks like they've got the equipment and knowledge to work with it and give it a try!

 

[BravoSix]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

How are you guys smoothing out the follower transition from the savage box to the FAL box?

I'm finding that the vertical rib going down the sides of the FAL box is causing the savage follower to hang up after loading the first 4 rounds. I relieved the follower enough so it can travel in the FAL box, but it still hangs up at the transition.

I think that some grinding and filler might help, but I figure I would check for other solutions before trying.

When I used to hang out on gunbuilding forums, it was often said that you should buy any cheap barrel or magazine that you find, because those are the most difficult parts of a firearm to build from scratch. I'm now beginning to understand why.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i think the solution (which i haven't tried yet) is to have a piece either on each side or front/back underneath the follower sticking down to keep it straight up and down. mine was binding after 5-6 rounds.

sort of like this

that way, you can get the follwer to have enough play to go through both (which mine did fine, once i notched it) but wont tip side to side or catch the front or rear (which mine did)

 

[kytrapper]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

tag

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

gotta wonder what about the design of the SSS mag causes it to work flawlessly as the follower goes way down in that box and back up into the stock magazine body so easily. maybe because its so big compared to the FAL magazine?

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Although I haven't seen a FAL mag, the main reason the SSS works do good is the SSS box is machined with notches to where the follower just slides straight up and down vertically. As long as you don't purposefully try to tip it, it's not going to. It will if you force the issue(as I just tested out to be sure I wasn't talking out of my ass).

I think I'm going to try and talk my grandpa into giving me a loan so I can get a small mill. If that works out, I'm going to be all over this like a fat kid on candy.

 

[david walter]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

One of the guys said he has a seat on Solidworks, the CAD program. I think that's the best place to develop a triggerguard and make necessary changes so it will work with DPMS/Magpul type magazines.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i think, im not sure, but i think that the pmag style was so wide or the type of feed, that it would require so much modification to the receiver that it would weaken it or make the cost of the millwork so great that using CDI bottom metal would be easier and cheaper. but dont hold me to that, it may have been a different type of mag that they tried

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Well, after a long sleepless night, I have learned basic autocad(thanks Autodesk student edition and tutorials), and I have crudely mapped out the box portion of the mag. Now all I have to do is buy a mill. . .

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i know a place that will do casting. not sure about aluminum, but they advertise their casting in their product catalogs. when your ready or if you are interested

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I've got some stuff I'm going to sell and hopefully I'll be able to get a cheap mill out of it. If I do I'm going to start off with that billet from McMaster Carr. If nothing else it'll provide cheap practice material.

It's a good day for putting stuff on eBay here in Tulsa, 1-1.5 feet of snow with some drifts over 2ft, how's the weather in Topeka?

 

[juliomorris]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

AXE if you find someone to dothe casting I'm In for 5 maybe more several of the guys I hunt with will want them also.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

it could be cast thick walled and then milled to size i would think? i dont know anything about it except the guy that does it. i can see what the will cast from. for the size really would steel -vs- aluminum really matter for overall weight? then its mag tops, followers and springs to make them work. and is the box something that can be cast so no milling is allowed?

 

[jrsherman]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it could be cast thick walled and then milled to size i would think? i dont know anything about it except the guy that does it. i can see what the will cast from. for the size really would steel -vs- aluminum really matter for overall weight? then its mag tops, followers and springs to make them work. and is the box something that can be cast so no milling is allowed? </div></div>

DISCLAIMER: I barely know anything about metal hardnesses and strength qualities.

I think the biggest issue with using cast aluminum might be the strength of it. Although I don't know, like I said above, I'm not sure of the processes required to turn out a good quality aluminum in a casting. AFAIK most of the billet stuff is force extruded or roll formed like steel. I would think with cast aluminum you would be taking a chance with air pockets and other defects.

I would feel much better about milling it from a rough cast or from solid stock than I would just using a cast piece. I don't think you could possibly get the precision without machining.

As far as weight comparison, I don't know TBH. I can tell you that, to me, the steel plate of the stock magazine hand-feels like it weighs just a little more than the aluminum box of the SSS mag. I'll get out in the shed tomorrow and weigh them on my reloading scale for S&G's.


All that said, I can give you some parameters to ask about for casting if you want to ask him. Only thing I'd worry about from there is a minimum cast quantity.

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

It would seem to me that someone out there could use sheet metal and form the magazines wide enough to center the magazine body in the mag well. At the same time, form the feed lips for centerfire applications.

Or maybe I am just trying to make this too simple...

DK

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

thats a decent idea, everybody is going at an angle that they know best or feel strongest about so far. if you look at the first page there is a CAD? photo that a guy did. all someone need do is take that to one of the magazine makers. promag, metalform or mecgar, whoever will stamp one out and let some tweaking be done to get the thing to work. PMAG 10 rounder would be sweet. that sounds easier than getting stamped steel to center and seat in factory DBM. thats what everybody wanted to attack at first.

this sent to them would get it started at least

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ten round

Fifteen round

Twenty round

The only thing I don't like about the FAL mag is that the COL is limited to 2.800". In my 10PC, I run them a little longer than that usually.
</div></div>

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Yeah, I saw all of that. I really like the ideas... but I guess I am just wishing for something to materialize. I have never been able to get in touch with SSS for anything, so I have all but given up on that angle.

I love the top loading abilities of the Savage factory magazine, as well as the easy manipulation of the detachable. FAL magazines should be an easy alternative, IF someone could pursue this avenue. My question is simply... why hasn't it been done yet??

I personally feel like it would be a very profitable situation. If I had a CNC and the know how... I would make everyone very happy Savage owners, and I could retire.

DK

 

[z71rat]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Even though the COAL would be limited, I would still buy some of them.

DK