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Rifle Scopes Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

#51
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That was probably Beryllium Copper ? It's a pretty common spring material.

Good review, I'm looking forward to seeing and trying some of their new products.

Thank you, Gentlemen,

Bill </div></div>

Bill,

Now you're just showing off! </div></div>

Mongo like Materials....
wink.gif
 
#52
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Guys,

Just to clarify this, it was a first step in a process. We opened the lines of communication, now we need to move forward. The fact they reached out says a ton, however you can't expect things to change overnight nor you can guarantee anything will change. However it needs to be open and civil on our end so they will want to continue to talk.

Some of you guys need to read the review again, nothing was off the table and i brought up all of these concerns. I had a list with 7 points on it, from QC to Customer Service to Pricing and Availability. I did not hesitate to relate my experience both good and bad. They listened, they took notes, they addressed each question without dodging. But in order for the process to continue, you can't be emotional about something like the cost of the 1-8X, you don't like it, great, as Mike @ CS Tactical said, people are buying them. Think it prices you out, well okay, but that is you and not everyone. So pressing the point on a single issue is not what we are here for.

I asked about a rep, the level of dialog here will determine if one is forthcoming. If they see people being open minded to this, one may happen. If they see a problem waiting to happen, you'll never had rep from Leupold that you can talk to. This was something I went to bat for, to give you, the end user as much access to the company as possible. I said, more than once, people want a name so if something does happen they can mark the return box "Attn : Bob in CS" so you know it is being handled. They understood that, and were open to the thought. So, I would recommend keeping it general, and not "I can't afford that so I hate it" .

WRM,

That was it, in my head it sounded wrong so I chose not to mention it. But that is correct. and for everyone else, this shows just how far I went, I saw and immediately asked, can this be a problem ? I asked, nothing in my mind was too small to mention.
 
#53
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,

Just to clarify this, it was a first step in a process. We opened the lines of communication, now we need to move forward. The fact they reached out says a ton, however you can't expect things to change overnight nor you can guarantee anything will change. However it needs to be open and civil on our end so they will want to continue to talk.

Some of you guys need to read the review again, nothing was off the table and i brought up all of these concerns. I had a list with 7 points on it, from QC to Customer Service to Pricing and Availability. I did not hesitate to relate my experience both good and bad. They listened, they took notes, they addressed each question without dodging. But in order for the process to continue, you can't be emotional about something like the cost of the 1-8X, you don't like it, great, as Mike @ CS Tactical said, people are buying them. Think it prices you out, well okay, but that is you and not everyone. So pressing the point on a single issue is not what we are here for.

I asked about a rep, the level of dialog here will determine if one is forthcoming. If they see people being open minded to this, one may happen. If they see a problem waiting to happen, you'll never had rep from Leupold that you can talk to. This was something I went to bat for, to give you, the end user as much access to the company as possible. I said, more than once, people want a name so if something does happen they can mark the return box "Attn : Bob in CS" so you know it is being handled. They understood that, and were open to the thought. So, I would recommend keeping it general, and not "I can't afford that so I hate it" .

WRM,

That was it, in my head it sounded wrong so I chose not to mention it. But that is correct. and for everyone else, this shows just how far I went, I saw and immediately asked, can this be a problem ? I asked, nothing in my mind was too small to mention. </div></div>

You've done a great job and need to be thanked for the time and effort you've dedicated to this. Point taken about being over blunt and personal sounding, however my frustration is born more out of not wanting to see a US manufacturer make the kind of mistakes we are seeing and failing as a result. Leupold has a shot at getting things right by opening up this kind of dialogue with its customers lets hope they follow through.
 
#54
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Frank, very glad to see this happen on Tactical Side. Remember guys Leupold basically started this Tactical Side in USA making the firts openly available tactical scopes in USA. Before the Mk4/Ultra series all we had was junk! ( Unertl scopes where not available for non Mil sales)


Now Leupold is not sitting on hands on Target side either. This year they contacted several long range target shooters and started working with us as well. I was lucky enough to be one of them. I am shooting a Leupold in F TR right now as well and it is working far better than my abilities. They have listened to several of us on what we want to see and making changes as soon as they can. Obviously the military side is using alot of resources but one example of changes they listened to is a new knob for the MK4s

Some target shooters have been using a windage knob, that has two sets of numbers on it. The row on right side is for 1-15 moa right wind adjustment. The row on left side is for 1-15 moa left side adjustment. This allows you to dial the wind without doing math in head, ie the old counting backward that is on most other brands.
Leupold heard our request and just started making them. Its now available through Leupold at I believe 40.00.

Leupold did this in a week and that tells you they do listen.

I look forward to more and better products from Leupold.
 
#55
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I enjoyed reading the review. I have always liked Leupold scopes and look forward to looking through my new M5, when I get home in the not so distant future. The new scope will replace a SFP MK4 that served me well and gave me no issues.

After reading the review, I wondered, if Leupold scopes are not "Made in USA" then what truly is? I would like to see them put it back on the scopes as it really deserves to be there.
 
#57
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

From what I have read, the fact the Leupold wants to hear feedback is a HUGE step in the right direction. They seem to have been tight-lipped and unapproachable for many, many years. And, the fact that they weren't defensive when questions/suggestions were brought up means they know there are shortcomings and they want to start correcting them. First step is righting the ship, which it looks like they want to do...have to wait and see what comes out of it.

Kelly
 
#58
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yeap. They could *easily* win price wars with other companies if they wanted to. They just choose not to.
</div></div>

It's a business, they didn't get to that size by giving the product away. Their pricing must work in their markets or other people would be eating their lunch.

Frank's comment about their size relative to the competition tells us a lot. There are always opportunities for other suppliers to compete on price or service or features because they can target smaller market segments.

If we can highlight quality issues and market shifts to them it should be of interest. Whether they choose to adopt the suggestions will depend on whether these are issues for their larger markets?

That's their choice.
 
#59
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I didn't even realize that new 34mm main tube Mark 4 was available.
982369.jpg

Leupold Mark 4 Extended Range Tactical M5 Locking Turrets Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 6.5-20x 50mm Side Focus 1/10 Mil Adjustments First Focal Horus H-58 Reticle Matte
Midway's price $3,100
(Without the H-58, it should be closer to $2,500 I would imagine)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=982369
The Promotive program price for the TMR version is VERY attractive...
(Close to the same price as a Vortex Razor HD 5-20)
 
#60
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Having a large, educated membership, you may begin to see other scope manufactures invite SH to tour their facilities to showcase what they do.
 
#61
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you find this piece of paper then please be sure to get me a copy of it. I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the people that we were talking to. </div></div>

I looked through the box's I thought it would be in but it turns out non of my gun paperwork was in them. I'm going to keep my eye out for the paperwork though, and I gotta go through all the box's anyway. I haven't even opened any of the box's since I moved over 2 years ago LOL.
 
#62
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Frank and Jason. thanks for the write up, I for one found it highly informative. I look forward to seeing what Leupold Tactical has in store for the future.
 
#63
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I was about ready to write Leupold off completely and forever when I heard that Lowlight was invited to the factory to provide input. This interaction has given me hope that we'll see some positive changes in the issues that have been presented. I think that we owe it to Leupold to at least be open-minded and give them a "stay of execution" until we see what they will be willing to implement and produce. I think it's also important to realize and accept that we may not see anything substantive until the 2012 SHOT Show, or even later.

I hope that they start to really consider their interactions with .le customers, and level it with the significance that Leupold has placed on being a .gov or .mil customer.

I guess I could say I'm CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC, but optimistic nonetheless.
 
#66
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">One thing I missed, </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Battle Field Upgrade</span>

This is the process to upgrade your scopes adjustments, they are doing it but it is not available for all models. When you want to know about a potential upgrade path, call them with your serial number. This is the only way they can tell you for sure. But upgrades are going to be offered on some models.
</div></div>

First
Thanks to Lowlight and JasonK for spending your own time and money doing this trip to Leupold.

Second
Does the above quote mean that Leupold is now offering the M5 turret upgrade? I may be reading too much into this comment, but it would be awesome if they are. Hopefully my old Vari-X III Tactical is eligible for an upgrade. I guess I will need to call CS with the SN to find out.
 
#67
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Yes, they are offering an M5 upgrade, but you do have to call with the serial number. Basically the answer was that over the years there's obviously been different internals made, some parts interchange and others don't. They can't make a blanket statement that all Mark 4's can be swapped, so simply call with the serial number and ask.
 
#69
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,

The fact they reached out says a ton. </div></div>

The fact that you flew out to Portland on your own dime to "consult" with them speaks a ton about you!

Thank you for all you contribute to help out your fellow shooters.
 
#70
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, they are offering an M5 upgrade, but you do have to call with the serial number. Basically the answer was that over the years there's obviously been different internals made, some parts interchange and others don't. They can't make a blanket statement that all Mark 4's can be swapped, so simply call with the serial number and ask. </div></div>

FWIW here is my question and response for the M5 upgrade.

<span style="font-weight: bold">My Question-</span> <span style="font-style: italic">Will the M5 (.1 millradian) turrets be available as a retrofit to the mark 4 scopes, specificlly part # 60030 and # 64665? </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Leupolds reponse-</span> <span style="font-style: italic">We are currently looking into what it will take to do the retrofit for those systems. We are hoping to have something available by the end of the year. I would check back with us in the next 4 months and we should have a better idea by then.
Thank you
Jeff</span>
3-21-2011
 
#71
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I emailed Leupold and got a somewhat different response from what Jnell got. I was told about a 1 year wait before M5 dial conversions are started. Perhaps if I called them I would get a different response?
 
#72
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

@Lowlight Will you be updating this thread with direct contact information for Leupold customer service (whether it's for tactical or SH direct) if you're able to get it?

Thanks for all the great info, I love my Mark 4 LR/T!!
 
#73
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For the budget minded, the Fed/Mil program is also a pretty strong reason to buy Leupold.
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/fedmil-p...tm_medium=email

</div></div>

That program is one of the main reasons I am considering a Leupold for an upcomign build. When they get into USO price territory, I am inclined to go with USO, but when they are somewhere between SS and Nightforce, the math changes completely. I have been reluctant to pull the trigger on a new Leupold (even though I currently own three) because of the negative reviews I had seen on here, but it seems like they are listening. And Leupold isn't going anywhere.
 
#74
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Did the Leupy Guys have any specific response to the relatively high failure rates of MK4s?

It seems like Leupold has such capability and depth, that if you guys could get through to them with product ideas, they could dominate the market.
 
#76
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I had to send back my Mark4 because the turret markers didn't align with the indicator on the scope base. After shipping it, I had it back in my hands in one week. That's what I call service.
 
#77
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had to send back my Mark4 because the turret markers didn't align with the indicator on the scope base. After shipping it, I had it back in my hands in one week. That's what I call service. </div></div>

They are user resetable. That's what the allen wrench is for that comes with the scope. 3 set screws in each turret hold it secure. After you sight in you set the turret to zero.
 
#78
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wizdumb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had to send back my Mark4 because the turret markers didn't align with the indicator on the scope base. After shipping it, I had it back in my hands in one week. That's what I call service. </div></div>

They are user resetable. That's what the allen wrench is for that comes with the scope. 3 set screws in each turret hold it secure. After you sight in you set the turret to zero. </div></div>

LOL, guess he lived up to his screen name!
 
#79
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

I personally would like to see Leupold increase the quality of the glass in their lower-end hunting rifle scopes (vx2 & 3 for example).

In my quest for a new hunting optic the Nikon Monarch vs. Leupold VX-3 question posted here on the Hide got me a lot of "Nikon" responses. Monarch trumps VX-3 and for less money.

I'd rather support an American company, but to spend $200 more on a lesser scope is just nuts. I really hope they take what Frank and Jason offered and make good use of it.
 
#81
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

Great information and kudos for effort! I hope Leupold appreciates the input you guys have given them. If they take every issue you guys brought up to heart, it can only help them. Hopefully, they'll listen and take action because their current product line and pricing isn't something I'm interested in. They really need to step it up because they're doing a lot of catchup at this point.
 
#82
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<span style="font-weight: bold">We also all had the discussion that many of the "canted reticles" were being judged based on the results of a $10 level kit sold by Midway. Probably not the most reliable setup to use for determining if your $5,000 scope/rifle/mount combo is truly level </span>This says so much on so many different levels!
 
#83
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ando</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It seems like Leupold has such capability and depth, that if you guys could get through to them with product ideas, they could dominate the market. </div></div>

I believe the reason they are sometimes slow to implement new ideas is they already dominate the market and their product line is already very diverse. No other company has near the overall market penetration or presence that Leupold does. Got to be proud of a US company being so strong in the global market place. I am and support them regularly whenever I can.

I find them to be an excellent value. Even so much that I have never taken a loss on any Leupold scope I have ever owned. Most of mine are now worth more and some twice what I paid for them retail. What other company can you say that about it's product? The list would be short.
 
#84
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They are user resetable. That's what the allen wrench is for that comes with the scope. 3 set screws in each turret hold it secure. After you sight in you set the turret to zero. </div></div>

No, the zero stop itself (metal tab inside) was misaligned. I know fully well how to reset the zero on the turrets.
 
#85
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AnthonyL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
LOL, guess he lived up to his screen name! </div></div>

That was a pretty disrespectful thing to say, especially when you don't know me or have all the information.
 
#86
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

That was a great account of your experience there, Frank. It sounds like Leupold is doing a lot that is positive and being up front about it. I'm surprised, however, that they haven't been looking at site like the 'Hide or Optics Talk to see what people are saying and what the trends are. I mean, not to know that there's been a big shift to matching turrets and reticles as well as FFP scopes among tactical and tactical-style shooters is odd.

Also, while Leupold has put tremendous effort into their manufacturing process and should be commended for keeping it largely American, they could do more to innovate with their products and to increase quality. That can be a hard sell because it costs more and may or may not pay off. Look at Apple. It and Steve Job's relentless focus on perfection nearly killed the company several times over but now they're back on top in a big way.

The other area where they could stand to take a hard look at themselves is in pricing and value. When I look at the quality and durability of a Leupold I think might as well buy an IOR...and not being able to bring myself to that it's always been a choice between NF, Premier, S&B or USO. And, more recently, the new SS 5-20. In the end, I wish them well but encourage Leupold to pursue excellence in everything.
 
#87
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

We spent a few days at Leupold this week, very impressive operation.

The one thing that sticks in my head about the trip though has nothing to do with Leupold, it is the fact that it is against the law in Oregon to pump your own gas. lol.
 
#88
Re: Leupold Tactical Trip - After Action Report

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We spent a few days at Leupold this week, very impressive operation.

The one thing that sticks in my head about the trip though has nothing to do with Leupold, it is the fact that it is against the law in Oregon to pump your own gas. lol.

</div></div>


Wait....what....you were in my hood and didn't call?

PS....We just don't trust Texan's to pump their own fuel.
 
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