Load development delema.

[Matthew488]

Hello all,
I've been trying to do load development for a couple of rifles for a while now with no real decent loads found. Started out with a Savage 12 LRP in 6.5 creedmoor. After several trips out to the AZ desert using Berger 140gr hybrids, two powders, various charge weights and seating depth never getting a 5 round group under an inch at a 100y. I stared thinking that this rifle just isn't a shooter. I then ended up picking up a Bergara LRP in 6.5 creedmoor. Since then basically a repeat of the Savage.

I've tried shooting from both bi-pod and sandbag rests.
Powder charges from mild through signs of pressure.
Seating depth fro 0.010" off the lands to mag length at 0.059"
Loading at the range to make changes on the spot and loading at home for a more controlled environment.
2 different scopes, checked and rechecked mounting screws.
Thought maybe adverse conditions were a culprit but last Saturday was perfect conditions except a little mirage do to recent rain.
I started to really question my own shooting Saturday do to not making it out but about 4 times a year lately but my 204 ruger easily shot sub moa 10 shot groups with 3 different varmit loads I had done up years ago.

I've probably used half of the 500 bullets at this point and my only conclusion at this point is just pick a load, try to have fun with it till I finish off the 140 hybrids and then get a different bullet ( maybe the 147gr Hornady).
What would you do if it was you at this point? Please keep in mind the frustration as it has probably taken 1 1/2 years to just to get to this point?

Thanks for any advice from you guys/gals.

 

[mtnkind]

I doubt the problem lies in the bullet as the Berger 140s seem to be the go-to for precision 6.5 these days. If you are worried it is the bullet though, I would go with a lighter option not heavier. A lighter bullet is generally easier to stabilize and may prove a better option.

What powder and primers are you using?

 

[squib]

Have you tried a commercial match ammo?

Have you had another shooter test rifle?

 

[Darkside-Six]

How many rounds do you have down this gun? The 140 Hybrids are one of the best 6.5 billets out there so I doubt it's that. If it's a relatively new gun then it may need to just get good and fouled up. Also, you didn't explain what you did for your load work up and what powders you're using.


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[Matthew488]

The Savage has probably 250 rounds through it and 150 or so through the Bergara. I'll have to look at what primers I'm using but I think they are Federal match. I've tried H4350, H100V and now IMR 4451 powders. Load work up has been a simple ladder test with 0.4 gr increments and 5 shot groups. Factory 140 gr match ammo has also been right around 1 moa 5 shot groups at 100y. I could go ahead and by a box of factory ammo with a lighter bullet to see how that does. I really don't know any other precision shooters so it has just been my dad and myself shooting them.

 

[steve123]

Sorry, really I am, because I've been there myself before a couple times.I personally have had bad luck with standard factory rifles. The ones I've had didn't shoot but moa in factory form with loads worked up. Well except for a $1200 Cooper in 204R which is more of a factory custom. Of course AI's and that class of factory rifle should be considered a factory custom too.

Glass bedding and new stocks helped "a little". Actually in those cases for me it wasn't worth the time and money.

This kind of post is why many of us have either sold or threw a lot of $ at our factory rifles. Premium components can go a long way!

Not familiar enough about the new Bergara, maybe it's good platform, maybe not, but who would work on it???. I know for darn sure I wouldn't put any more money into the Savage trap.

140 hybrids are all I've used ever since they came out. One awesome bullet.

Maybe sell both and research which nice custom action and premium barrel to get going on. That's what I wish I had done all those years ago instead of....

Did I ever tell you guys the story of the used 40x 6mmPPC I could have bought 30 years ago? 5 shot groups at 200Y all of .3". I should get up and kick myself again!

 

[waveslayer]

I would test the rifles with match ammo and see how these rifles group. I would then have a good shooter shot as well and compare.

How are you reloading these rounds? Single stage, how are you dispensing the powder, seating, dies, brass prep, etc..

As stated above , a lot of possibilities I have had 1 good factory rifle that shot like a 10K rifle, it's my gold standard. More info would be great

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[Darkside-Six]

I've never been a fan of ladder tests. Get a few boxes of Hornady ELD's and see how they shoot.


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[Matthew488]

Sorry, really I am, because I've been there myself before a couple times.I personally have had bad luck with standard factory rifles. The ones I've had didn't shoot but moa in factory form with loads worked up. Well except for a $1200 Cooper in 204R which is more of a factory custom. Of course AI's and that class of factory rifle should be considered a factory custom too.

Glass bedding and new stocks helped "a little". Actually in those cases for me it wasn't worth the time and money.

This kind of post is why many of us have either sold or threw a lot of $ at our factory rifles. Premium components can go a long way!

Not familiar enough about the new Bergara, maybe it's good platform, maybe not, but who would work on it???. I know for darn sure I wouldn't put any more money into the Savage trap.

140 hybrids are all I've used ever since they came out. One awesome bullet.

Maybe sell both and research which nice custom action and premium barrel to get going on. That's what I wish I had done all those years ago instead of....

Did I ever tell you guys the story of the used 40x 6mmPPC I could have bought 30 years ago? 5 shot groups at 200Y all of .3". I should get up and kick myself again!

True, that's kinda why I went with the Bergara as it looked to be a factory custom level of rifle. My 204 is a Howa 1500 and seems to be a good shooter so I'll see how it does with some load development also.
I've been saving my bench-rest rifle till last as I worked my way up in distance with the other 3. It's a 308 BAER built by Gary Ocock here in AZ. He sets world records with the rifles he builds so there's no question it will be a shooter! Maybe I go ahead and just get that one out. LOL

 

[steve123]

True, that's kinda why I went with the Bergara as it looked to be a factory custom level of rifle. My 204 is a Howa 1500 and seems to be a good shooter so I'll see how it does with some load development also.
I've been saving my bench-rest rifle till last as I worked my way up in distance with the other 3. It's a 308 BAER built by Gary Ocock here in AZ. He sets world records with the rifles he builds so there's no question it will be a shooter! Maybe I go ahead and just get that one out. LOL

I met Gary at the southwest nationals about 10 years ago. I almost ordered a rifle from him and the only reason I didn't was because I was transitioning to tactical rifles. Too this day I wish I had a good BR rifle built by him!

Before I got into tactical rifles I owned a couple custom action BR rifles in 6PPC. I bought them used and for a super deal down at Ben Avery from someone I met when I stopped by the benchrest range. One was my initiation into long range. I had it rebarreled to 6.5-284 and won my local annual 1000Y match with it, fun!

BTW Darksix, I wish I had known about ladder tests back then because I wasted way too much ammo working up a load. Whereas with my current 6x47 barrel I was done in 12 shots via ladder test. Almost unbelievably small vertical at distance.

Matt, I highly suggest looking into the ARC Mausingfield action to build a tactical rifle off of!!!

 

[tnichols]

A lot of good advice above. You have to be honest with yourself at this game. How well can YOU shoot? Do you have past experience with other rifles that were absolute hammers? Or, did you hope the current rifles you own would miracle your way to sub half MOA groups? Focus on fundamentals, read, practice, dry fire, etc... Let a known local hot rod shoot your system and see what he can do.

You're using quality components, so stay the course, and feed us good information. We're more than happy to help.

 

[OH58DViper]

I hate it for you man as I've been there. If you're able to shoot 10 shot sub minute groups with another rifle I doubt it's the shooter. Try some 130s or 147's. I had a 7 RM that just wouldn't shoot 168's no matter how hard I tried, loved 180's. Like I flipped a switch on it. I still sent it off yo be trued and rebarreled but that was for weight reasons.

 

[Matthew488]

A lot of good advice above. You have to be honest with yourself at this game. How well can YOU shoot? Do you have past experience with other rifles that were absolute hammers? Or, did you hope the current rifles you own would miracle your way to sub half MOA groups? Focus on fundamentals, read, practice, dry fire, etc... Let a known local hot rod shoot your system and see what he can do.

You're using quality components, so stay the course, and feed us good information. We're more than happy to help.

I'm certainly not ruling out me just not shooting my best at this point with as few times a year that I've been able to get out lately. I may take my Tikka 55 in 308win out next time out to see how that goes it will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 moa consistently. As well as maybe a couple boxes of factory match ammo in a lighter bullet.
Brass has been prepped with primer pocket uniformer and flash hole debering tool but not neck turned or annealed. Two reloads on brass. Powder charges individually weighed on digital scale and loaded with an RCBS single stage press with Hornady dies.

If there are any hide members in the Phoenix area that are up for burning some powder and seeing how these rifles do in your hands send me a PM. I'm in Gilbert.

 

[Mtndog05]

Sounds like your thing to do everything g at once... I have a hard time concentrating on one thing at a time as well. I have limited .Yself to factory ammo (still tried several) until I am more comfortable with fundamentals.

 

[rduckwor]

You've been given some really good advice. Quit beating a dead horse and try the factory ammo for a while. Also, you didn't (unless I misread) tell us what powder or brass your are trying to work with.

Good advice to change only ONE variable at a time.

Work out a charge using the OCW method and then work on seating depth with that same bullet.

Don't give up, we've all been there and got the t-shirt.

Good Luck,

RMD

 

[Matthew488]

Been using Hornady brass and have tried H4350, H100V and now IMR 4451. Was concentrating on the Savage the first 5 or 6 times out changing only one variable at a time. Last 3 times have been concentrating on the Bergara. With the 204 I've just been emptying out some old hand loads with no load development yet. 308 Baer hasn't been shot in years and have been waiting to get the others going good first before doing anything with it.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I'm not sure if you have tried this already, but every Savage in an HSP stock I have messed with had really poor bedding. Usually pretty sloppy and some stress on the action. You might try skim bedding it as a DIY project. I'll admit I've never shot one without bedding it, but I did have one where the skim coat didn't adhere well. Some of the bedding material fell out, and the accuracy went to pot until I fixed it. It went from a .5-.6 moa gun to a 1.1-1.2 moa gun. The fix might be as simple as that.

I will second the guys that said don't put a bunch of money into a Savage if you have the funds available to build something else. They are a design that is typically very accurate, and they are inexpensive. With a hand lapped barrel they will typically shoot very well, so they work well for things like f-class where you single load. Those are the strong points. They do not usually have good extraction and ejection without some work and the bolt lift is not very smooth. There are a lot more reliable designs out there if you want to get into the tactical shooting game.

I have no experience with Bergara so I can't really be of help there.

It was mentioned before, but I would agree with the recommendation to use Dan Newbwerry's OCW method of load development. Find the charge, then tune seating depth. Then work in very small increments at distance to try to reduce vertical. At that point you should have a pretty accurate load.

Hopefully this helps some.

 

[Matthew488]

I'm not sure if you have tried this already, but every Savage in an HSP stock I have messed with had really poor bedding. Usually pretty sloppy and some stress on the action. You might try skim bedding it as a DIY project. I'll admit I've never shot one without bedding it, but I did have one where the skim coat didn't adhere well. Some of the bedding material fell out, and the accuracy went to pot until I fixed it. It went from a .5-.6 moa gun to a 1.1-1.2 moa gun. The fix might be as simple as that.

I will second the guys that said don't put a bunch of money into a Savage if you have the funds available to build something else. They are a design that is typically very accurate, and they are inexpensive. With a hand lapped barrel they will typically shoot very well, so they work well for things like f-class where you single load. Those are the strong points. They do not usually have good extraction and ejection without some work and the bolt lift is not very smooth. There are a lot more reliable designs out there if you want to get into the tactical shooting game.

I have no experience with Bergara so I can't really be of help there.

It was mentioned before, but I would agree with the recommendation to use Dan Newbwerry's OCW method of load development. Find the charge, then tune seating depth. Then work in very small increments at distance to try to reduce vertical. At that point you should have a pretty accurate load.

Hopefully this helps some.

I haven't looked at the bedding in the Savage yet but I'll take a look at that as soon as I get the chance. Would prefer even to get the Bergara going good as I really like that one, and possibly sell the Savage once I know it will shoot decent groups to help fund a suppressor.