looking for new hunting rifle for large western game

[clark33]

So, you are claiming that the difference in damage between a .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at 1000 ft/sec is not substantially different than the same bullet traveling at 4000 ft/sec? Because the bullet itself is the primary contributor to damage, not velocity above a current level? You really believe that?

Jesus Christ man….No, but they’d both kill… WHICH IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, you dense seattlite. We can all make up hypotheticals. I’m talking about legal hunting cartridges. The lore of needing a magnum with a 180gr bullet with enough “kinetic energy” to kill big game is just false. The research article I linked supports that. Shot placement with a good bullet is what is most important, as I have stated earlier.

Quit trying to make an argument where there isn’t one. If you’d had read the entire thread you’d know what I was getting at big guy.

 

[ObiJohn]

No, but they’d both kill… WHICH IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, you dense seattlite. Jesus man we can all make up hypotheticals. I’m talking about legal hunting cartridges. The lore of needing a magnum with a 180gr bullet with enough “kinetic energy” to kill big game is just false. The research article I linked supports that. Shot placement with a good bullet is what is most important, as I have stated earlier.

Quit trying to make an argument where there isn’t one. If you’d had read the entire thread you’d know what I was getting at big guy.

I agree they both kill. If I shoot an elk at 200 yards in the vitals with a .22 LR, I'll kill it... eventually. That is the point.

I further agree that within a reasonable distance, say 400 yards, any reasonable big game cartridge will do. Once you start stretching the distance velocity is important to reduce trajectory variance and to retain sufficient energy to do enough tissue damage to kill quickly. As you know, expanding bullets require a minimal velocity to expand. That minimal velocity threshold imposes a maximum effective ethical distance to attempt a shot in terms of energy... the distance may be less depending on the hunter's self-assessment of rifle/shooter accuracy limits.

That is the point. I agree, if you're taking shots within 300 yards, any centerfire hunting cartridge that will penetrate the target animal on a chest shot is sufficient. It starts to matter at extended ranges.

 

[308pirate]

So, you are claiming that the difference in damage between a .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at 1000 ft/sec is not substantially different than the same bullet traveling at 4000 ft/sec? Because the bullet itself is the primary contributor to damage, not velocity above a current level? You really believe that?

You talk a lot of pseudo scientific drivel. What are your professional qualifications in forensic medicine?

Are you the same ObiJohn from INGO? LOL

 

[clark33]

I agree they both kill. If I shoot an elk at 200 yards in the vitals with a .22 LR, I'll kill it... eventually. That is the point.

I further agree that within a reasonable distance, say 400 yards, any reasonable big game cartridge will do. Once you start stretching the distance velocity is important to reduce trajectory variance and to retain sufficient energy to do enough tissue damage to kill quickly. As you know, expanding bullets require a minimal velocity to expand. That minimal velocity threshold imposes a maximum effective ethical distance to attempt a shot in terms of energy... the distance may be less depending on the hunter's self-assessment of rifle/shooter accuracy limits.

That is the point. I agree, if you're taking shots within 300 yards, any centerfire hunting cartridge that will penetrate the target animal on a chest shot is sufficient. It starts to matter at extended ranges.

Man you’re basically talking to yourself now. I know old habits die hard, but there are a whole plethora of guys killing deer and elk at 500yds plus with a 108gr eldm out of a 6 creed (myself included). Even s lot of guys killing deer and some elk and bear with 77gr tmk’s at those distances. So your argument has no validity, the proof is in the results my dude.
No issues getting them to die quick. Real world results. Yes, bullets need velocity to move.

No one here advocated shooting an elk with a 40gr .22 at any distance.

Go spout your “knowledge” over here:

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

 

[Turkeytider]

Model 70 is THE rifleman's rifle. Nothing better for an old school rifle that gets the job done. It does seem aftermarket interest is waning more and more so what you get, no upgrades unless you want to do them yourself. Good luck, I love the Winchester rifles. I'm sure much of it is nostalgia but they feel good in the hand and have always been solid performers for me.

Not that it matters much now ( except maybe to some of us old guys ) , but the Model 70.... A great sniper rifle in its time. Has served this country well, along with the Remington 700.

 

[sloporsche]

Not that it matters much now ( except maybe to some of us old guys ) , but the Model 70.... A great sniper rifle in its time. Has served this country well, along with the Remington 700.

and it still serves well, along with the 700 and used good old fudd ammo ....30 cal .....06/308/300winmag/338winmag

 

[308pirate]

So, you are claiming that the difference in damage between a .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at 1000 ft/sec is not substantially different than the same bullet traveling at 4000 ft/sec? Because the bullet itself is the primary contributor to damage, not velocity above a current level? You really believe that?

LOL your debating techniques are as shallow as your knowledge.

This isn't INGO. You won't be able to bluff your way around.

 

[clark33]

LOL your debating techniques are as shallow as your knowledge.

This isn't INGO. You won't be able to bluff your way around.

He read an outdoor life article in 1992, and he’s from Seattle, so be basically knows everything ok

 

[ObiJohn]

Man you’re basically talking to yourself now. I know old habits die hard, but there are a whole plethora of guys killing deer and elk at 500yds plus with a 108gr eldm out of a 6 creed (myself included). Even s lot of guys killing deer and some elk and bear with 77gr tmk’s at those distances. So your argument has no validity, the proof is in the results my dude.
No issues getting them to die quick. Real world results. Yes, bullets need velocity to move.

No one here advocated shooting an elk with a 40gr .22 at any distance.

Go spout your “knowledge” over here:

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

The original statement put forward was that kinetic energy doesn't matter. Clearly a false statement, and a foolish one. It does matter. That reduces the question to, how much kinetic energy is sufficient to guarantee enough tissue damage... and can the use of magnum cartridges supply this energy through velocity at extended range.

Can a 6 Creed kill a deer, or even an elk, at 500 yards? Surely. At 800 yards? Deer, maybe... elk, not responsibly/ethically. What about a 240 Weatherby Mag, or a 6 ARC? Of course, a .243 Win with a 1:7" twist can do anything a 6 Creed can do, except be bought over the counter. It's about retained energy, as you acknowledge with your remark about 40 gr .22 bullets. What is the range limit? That at which the bullet lacks the velocity to create the energy required for expansion.

Bullets need a minimum velocity to be effective, because they need a minimum kinetic energy to be effective. The push to boost velocities was the objective between WWI and the 2000s to solve this problem... an inefficient brute force approach. Now, the emphasis is on retaining velocity with VLD bullets to increase efficiency. Keeping more of what you started with works, to a certain distance. Do you need a magnum cartridge? Past a certain range, even with VLDs, yes.

Re elk at 500 yards plus with a 77 gr .223 bullet, it's important to talk about the failures, not just the successes, to get a valid understanding. We both know that if there are failures with conventional hunting cartridges and bullets at closer distances, there are failures with the .223 at extended ranges. I've seen coyotes smacked a little far back with a .223 at 200 yards get away (hundreds of yards and over a ridge with a gut shot). Are deer and elk less resilient than coyotes? Using a purpose-built .223 for long range big game hunting is a stunt, an exercise in ego gratification over assurance of an ethical kill.

The world record brown bear was shot and killed with a .22 LR. Is that a good choice for hunting brown bear? Just because you can, possibly, do something doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[ObiJohn]

He read an outdoor life article in 1992, and he’s from Seattle, so be basically knows everything ok

Not from Seattle, live in the area, have hunted for half a century, have reladed and competed in shooting sports for decades and won, have consulted on ballistics issues for aerospace companies. Oh, and read Outdoor Life back in the 70s. What is your background, and what is your claim to expertise? Ad hominem arguments are the last resort of people who have no other alternative... they're a sign of ignorance combined with arrogance.

 

[clark33]

The original statement put forward was that kinetic energy doesn't matter. Clearly a false statement, and a foolish one. It does matter. That reduces the question to, how much kinetic energy is sufficient to guarantee enough tissue damage... and can the use of magnum cartridges supply this energy through velocity at extended range.

Can a 6 Creed kill a deer, or even an elk, at 500 yards? Surely. At 800 yards? Deer, maybe... elk, not responsibly/ethically. What about a 240 Weatherby Mag, or a 6 ARC? Of course, a .243 Win with a 1:7" twist can do anything a 6 Creed can do, except be bought over the counter. It's about retained energy, as you acknowledge with your remark about 40 gr .22 bullets. What is the range limit? That at which the bullet lacks the velocity to create the energy required for expansion.

Bullets need a minimum velocity to be effective, because they need a minimum kinetic energy to be effective. The push to boost velocities was the objective between WWI and the 2000s to solve this problem... an inefficient brute force approach. Now, the emphasis is on retaining velocity with VLD bullets to increase efficiency. Keeping more of what you started with works, to a certain distance. Do you need a magnum cartridge? Past a certain range, even with VLDs, yes.

Re elk at 500 yards plus with a 77 gr .223 bullet, it's important to talk about the failures, not just the successes, to get a valid understanding. We both know that if there are failures with conventional hunting cartridges and bullets at closer distances, there are failures with the .223 at extended ranges. I've seen coyotes smacked a little far back with a .223 at 200 yards get away (hundreds of yards and over a ridge with a gut shot). Are deer and elk less resilient than coyotes? Using a purpose-built .223 for long range big game hunting is a stunt, an exercise in ego gratification over assurance of an ethical kill.

The world record brown bear was shot and killed with a .22 LR. Is that a good choice for hunting brown bear? Just because you can, possibly, do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Are you dense? Seriously? I said KE was overrated, when it comes to killing. Never said it didn’t matter. Bullets today are much better than they were decades ago. Of course EVERY cartridge at a certain distance will run out of steam and fall to the earth. Why are you so insistent on putting words in peoples mouth?

Then you start throwing out 800yds with a 223? It seems you’re just arguing to argue, like you’re just in the act of mental masturbation. Typical 206’er

 

[clark33]

Not from Seattle, live in the area, have hunted for half a century, have reladed and competed in shooting sports for decades and won, have consulted on ballistics issues for aerospace companies. Oh, and read Outdoor Life back in the 70s. What is your background, and what is your claim to expertise? Ad hominem arguments are the last resort of people who have no other alternative... they're a sign of ignorance combined with arrogance.

 

[moosemeat]

So does anyone make a 338 vmax projectile? Cause I'm looking for a new coyote rifle.....

Can we stop shitting on this thread yet? I'm sure the OP doesn't care about your ramblings. He already bought a rifle.

 

[308pirate]

have hunted for half a century, have reladed and competed in shooting sports for decades and won,

Logical fallacy: appeal to authority

have consulted on ballistics issues for aerospace companies.

Clearly not terminal ballistics in human or animal tissue. So again logical fallacy.

 

[Turkeytider]

Teetering on Bear Pit?

 

[diggler1833]

Teetering on Bear Pit?

We need to get to page 5 with at least a half-page's worth of "motherfucker"-ing first.

Just read a few dozen posts back. I see we're still giant slaying with minimal cartridges. Give it time...

 

[sloporsche]

We need to get to page 5 with at least a half-page's worth of "motherfucker"-ing first.

Just read a few dozen posts back. I see we're still giant slaying with minimal cartridges. Give it time...

Being the old fudd that I am I still deny the new math dark energy [kinetic ] being slung here. I will still keep my 357 magnum 125 gr JHP rather than carry 22 short dark matter rounds . Plus my 300 win mag with its godzilla killer ammo is a keeper .

 

[clark33]

Being the old fudd that I am I still deny the new math dark energy [kinetic ] being slung here. I will still keep my 357 magnum 125 gr JHP rather than carry 22 short dark matter rounds . Plus my 300 win mag with its godzilla killer ammo is a keeper .

Admission is step 1 of the 12 step process, proud of you

 

[Forrest84]

Was just doing some thinking on the Mod 70. can anybody speak to improving the accuracy in its factory configuration? for instance do they improve a measurable amount having a competent smith pillar bed it and bed the action? what could I reasonably expect if i got around to getting one next year and have a new match barrel putt on it and had a smith bed it in the wood stock and work up hand loads?

 

[Long Range 338]

Was just doing some thinking on the Mod 70. can anybody speak to improving the accuracy in its factory configuration? for instance do they improve a measurable amount having a competent smith pillar bed it and bed the action? what could I reasonably expect if i got around to getting one next year and have a new match barrel putt on it and had a smith bed it in the wood stock and work up hand loads?

At that point you've turned it into a custom rifle and it should shoot lights out! There's nothing inherently less accurate or subpar in comparison to the Rem 700 and clones, it's that aftermarket support is very poor. Many smiths don't even know how to cut the extractor cut in the barrel.

 

[moosemeat]

FN SPR is a factory heavy barrel m70. Mine won several f t/r matches and is currently at GAP getting basically everything. I'm sure when I get it back it will be even better.
Factory m70s benefit from bedding and the like identical to anything else. Sometimes it's a wonder and sometimes it makes you wander.

 

[diggler1833]

Was just doing some thinking on the Mod 70. can anybody speak to improving the accuracy in its factory configuration? for instance do they improve a measurable amount having a competent smith pillar bed it and bed the action? what could I reasonably expect if i got around to getting one next year and have a new match barrel putt on it and had a smith bed it in the wood stock and work up hand loads?

Trued, action bedded, some trigger work, and a good barrel - and they'll shoot with anything. Won't be as buttery smooth as a custom, but they'll never let you down either.

"Reasonable accuracy" depends on you. I'd go aftermarket stock if I were going to put that amount of effort into it. Not a ton of M70 options, but McMillan still offers the HTG for one last time I checked.

My FN SPR the other day as I was adjusting an already developed load. It is a 26", 6.5x47L now with a Krieger.

 

[ObiJohn]

I own several (a half-dozen) of the 1990s M70 Classics, factory and custom, plus a couple of pre-64s. Good bedding, good ammo, and a good barrel will shoot very good indeed. My factory rifles with hunting or featherweight shoot MOA or under. My M70 Stainless Classic-based Cloward HP target rifle with a 26" Lilja barrel shoots 1/2 MOA out to 600 yards. My M70 Classic Laredo with trued action and rebarreled to 6.7 Lazzeroni Blackbird with a 26" Lilja barrel shoots 1/2" or better and absolutely DESTROYS coyotes (I shoot the 100gr NBT at over 3900 ft/sec). My circa 1954 pre-64 '06 was accurized in the early 1980s by KDF... pillar bedded, re-crowned, bolt lugs trued... and shoots under 1 MOA.

The factory actions can be a bit rough... the same is true for factory Rem 700s, etc. My Classic actions that have been gunsmith have been slightly polished to remove burrs, etc., and are as smooth as glass. My pre-64 '06 is also oiled glass on glass smooth.

I wish these rifles had better aftermarket support (chassis stocks). I can understand why a stock mfgr might not want to invest $$ in creating a profile, don't understand why the folks who have developed profiles won't run a batch.

 

[Wyfox]

Model 70's are fantastic, sometimes they need to have the barrel floated and action bedded to get them to shoot well. No idea how the new MOA triggers are but the older models were easy to adjust. It is the Rifleman's Rifle for good reason.

I'd opt for the '06 myself, I like a 30cal or larger for an elk rifle. Depending on where you're going in Wyoming you'll really want that 30cal or bigger because we have these big fluffy things that love to eat people and they're fucking everywhere in the west side of the state. I have them in my yard often and can't hunt without running into them. Pic below is 100yds from my driveway.

I shoot a 300winmag, 300 Norma mag and a 338winmag(Model 70) for elk rifles and I've killed ALOT of elk. Whomever suggests a 223 for elk is fucking retarded and I don't use that word lightly! I know a shit ton of elk hunters and none of them are dumb enough to use light rifles. 6.5 transgender is as light as I'd ever go, sure as heck wouldn't be my first choice. Its usually what we start our kids with then they graduate to a real rifle as they get to be older...

 

[brianf]

Skipping through the idiocy posts

Only 1 elk for me

300wm factory federal partitions 26” barrel, 200’s not 220’s. They shot better

Elk was at 326 if I remember

Hanging weight at butcher (head and cape off) 495

1 shot about 10” to far back (wind was blowing about 25 after I finished the hunt and did the math, this was before kestrels were all over the place)

Adjusted and put 2 more through the vitals

All 3 did not exit and were recovered, which surprised me

Took a solid 10 minutes to die, could not believe it when it was opened up the vitals were jello. We were all confused how it was alive with nothing left inside.

We joked around that the guy from NY shot the bullet proof elk lol. Guide said he never saw an elk take that much bullet and take so long to die.

Of my sample size of 1 robust elk, I would never shoot one with a 223

That’s my elk story

Oh and the best part is the brand new fridge I bought to fit all the butchered meat and chops.. fucking thing broke after about 3 days and all the meat spoiled. I had about 20oz of meat before it all spoiled.

 

[Turkeytider]

Model 70's are fantastic, sometimes they need to have the barrel floated and action bedded to get them to shoot well. No idea how the new MOA triggers are but the older models were easy to adjust. It is the Rifleman's Rifle for good reason.

I'd opt for the '06 myself, I like a 30cal or larger for an elk rifle. Depending on where you're going in Wyoming you'll really want that 30cal or bigger because we have these big fluffy things that love to eat people and they're fucking everywhere in the west side of the state. I have them in my yard often and can't hunt without running into them. Pic below is 100yds from my driveway.
View attachment 8432952

I shoot a 300winmag, 300 Norma mag and a 338winmag(Model 70) for elk rifles and I've killed ALOT of elk. Whomever suggests a 223 for elk is fucking retarded and I don't use that word lightly! I know a shit ton of elk hunters and none of them are dumb enough to use light rifles. 6.5 transgender is as light as I'd ever go, sure as heck wouldn't be my first choice. Its usually what we start our kids with then they graduate to a real rifle as they get to be older...

" Whomever suggests a 223 for elk is fucking retarded......" , Just for fun, take that on over to Rokslide if you haven`t already. There`s a well known and prominent thread over there to post that in. Just do us all a favor and give us 24 hours to get to the store to buy up all the popcorn! Those guys are really serious about this!

 

[wi50]

I won a weatherby vanguard multicam rifle, factory cerakoted, threaded barrel, chambered in .300 wby mag. I really don't need it. Kids shooting trap, selling raffle tickets for something and I won it. I wanna turn it into $$$ to put towards a nice trap thrower for the kids and their school club/ team for them as well as a few other things and kick in the rest out of pocket. So one of these days I'll advertise it here and other places to try and sell or send a pm if it's of interest

 

[supercorndogs]

Was just doing some thinking on the Mod 70. can anybody speak to improving the accuracy in its factory configuration? for instance do they improve a measurable amount having a competent smith pillar bed it and bed the action? what could I reasonably expect if i got around to getting one next year and have a new match barrel putt on it and had a smith bed it in the wood stock and work up hand loads?

LRI has done thread here where they built a custom modle 70. People do it with Mausers too. Aftermarket and cost are the main detereants. At some point in the money spending process one could have a mausingfield action and prefit barrel for the same money and have 700 compatibility as well.

 

[brazz04]

One thing I've never understood is the 223/243/6creed game talking about how well the 108 eldm is at killing anything that moves, then wouldn't the logic support moving to something like a 7PRC with a 180gr version of that same bullet? Are we just debating recoil only now? Genuine question

 

[brianf]

One thing I've never understood is the 223/243/6creed game talking about how well the 108 eldm is at killing anything that moves, then wouldn't the logic support moving to something like a 7PRC with a 180gr version of that same bullet? Are we just debating recoil only now? Genuine question

They are just debating the debate about the debate.

 

[supercorndogs]

One thing I've never understood is the 223/243/6creed game talking about how well the 108 eldm is at killing anything that moves, then wouldn't the logic support moving to something like a 7PRC with a 180gr version of that same bullet? Are we just debating recoil only now? Genuine question

Why? Does it make them more dead?

People definitely shoot non mag cartridges better and even more so in light rifles.

Case and point the story above about gut shooting an elk with 3 shots of 300wm and waiting 10 minutes for it to die. A well placed 100g partition from a 243 would have dropped it in seconds not minutes.

Also if a gut shot elk didn't run to the bottom of the nastiest shit you can imagine before dying it wasn't a very robust one. IMO.

 

[clark33]

Skipping through the idiocy posts

Only 1 elk for me

300wm factory federal partitions 26” barrel, 200’s not 220’s. They shot better

Elk was at 326 if I remember

Hanging weight at butcher (head and cape off) 495

1 shot about 10” to far back (wind was blowing about 25 after I finished the hunt and did the math, this was before kestrels were all over the place)

Adjusted and put 2 more through the vitals

All 3 did not exit and were recovered, which surprised me

Took a solid 10 minutes to die, could not believe it when it was opened up the vitals were jello. We were all confused how it was alive with nothing left inside.

We joked around that the guy from NY shot the bullet proof elk lol. Guide said he never saw an elk take that much bullet and take so long to die.

Of my sample size of 1 robust elk, I would never shoot one with a 223

That’s my elk story

Oh and the best part is the brand new fridge I bought to fit all the butchered meat and chops.. fucking thing broke after about 3 days and all the meat spoiled. I had about 20oz of meat before it all spoiled.

Man, no one is saying don’t shoot a magnum. Shoot it if it gives you the confidence. My take on the whole thing is it isn’t necessary and there is a lot of “you MUST shoot a magnum to kill an elk/moose/bear etc.”

But to call people idiots for killing big game with a .223 doesn’t help anyone. I know plenty of people who hunt with 300PRC, 7 rem mags, 300 win mags and so on, I also know quite few guys who hunt with 6 and 6.5cm. All out west, and they’re all pretty successful and good dudes, and wouldn’t consider them idiots.

I’ve personally had a mule deer take a 185gr Berger thru the lungs from a 300wsm run over 100yds before dying, I’ve also poleaxed a mule deer at 500yds with a 108 eldm from a 6cm. I’ve seen an elk dropped with a 25-06 and also seen another take 3 hits from a 6.5creed and stand there like nothing happened until it finally tipped over.

My point is you can get varying results with whatever cartridge you use, but the myth of elk being impervious to smaller calibers is just that, a myth. So I choose to hunt with what I shoot the best and shoot the most. Only magnum bolt face I own now is a 6.5prc. And I’ll be taking my 6cm to Idaho and Colorado this year.

I don’t get the need to cast aspersions because you’ve had one experience.

 

[clark33]

One thing I've never understood is the 223/243/6creed game talking about how well the 108 eldm is at killing anything that moves, then wouldn't the logic support moving to something like a 7PRC with a 180gr version of that same bullet? Are we just debating recoil only now? Genuine question

Logic would support using the 108eldm. Why move to more recoil, more expensive ammo?

Before anyone gets in their feelings, had a 7prc, it is a sweet round, sold it to buy a better scope for my 6.5prc

 

[brianf]

Man, no one is saying don’t shoot a magnum. Shoot it if it gives you the confidence. My take on the whole thing is it isn’t necessary and there is a lot of “you MUST shoot a magnum to kill an elk/moose/bear etc.”

But to call people idiots for killing big game with a .223 doesn’t help anyone. I know plenty of people who hunt with 300PRC, 7 rem mags, 300 win mags and so on, I also know quite few guys who hunt with 6 and 6.5cm. All out west, and they’re all pretty successful and good dudes, and wouldn’t consider them idiots.

I’ve personally had a mule deer take a 185gr Berger thru the lungs from a 300wsm run over 100yds before dying, I’ve also poleaxed a mule deer at 500yds with a 108 eldm from a 6cm. I’ve seen an elk dropped with a 25-06 and also seen another take 3 hits from a 6.5creed and stand there like nothing happened until it finally tipped over.

My point is you can get varying results with whatever cartridge you use, but the myth of elk being impervious to smaller calibers is just that, a myth. So I choose to hunt with what I shoot the best and shoot the most. Only magnum bolt face I own now is a 6.5prc. And I’ll be taking my 6cm to Idaho and Colorado this year.

I don’t get the need to cast aspersions because you’ve had one experience.

If you “don’t get the need” why quote me?

Ironic isn’t it

 

[clark33]

If you “don’t get the need” why quote me?

Ironic isn’t it

Yea, maybe. I guess there isn’t any irony in a guy from NY with 1 elk hunt calling people who live and hunt out west every season idiots for not shooting a 300wm.

 

[Long Range 338]

View attachment 8432952

I shoot a 300winmag, 300 Norma mag and a 338winmag(Model 70) for elk rifles and I've killed ALOT of elk. Whomever suggests a 223 for elk is fucking retarded and I don't use that word lightly! I know a shit ton of elk hunters and none of them are dumb enough to use light rifles. 6.5 transgender is as light as I'd ever go, sure as heck wouldn't be my first choice. Its usually what we start our kids with then they graduate to a real rifle as they get to be older...

Finally, a little reality. Yes it can be done with marginal calibers, but why?

I'm calling utter bullshit on the whole killing elk with 223 thing. Not because it can't be done but because AFAIK its not legal to hunt with in the states that have elk.

 

[clark33]

@Long Range 338 Idaho and Alaska with no caliber restriction say “hold our beer”. I personally don’t hunt with .223 but guys are definitely doing it.

It’s becoming very popular on rokslide. Also wildcating a 6.5saum or prc down to a 6mm for western game is becoming pretty popular over there.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

 

[brazz04]

Why? Does it make them more dead?

People definitely shoot non mag cartridges better and even more so in light rifles.

Case and point the story above about gut shooting an elk with 3 shots of 300wm and waiting 10 minutes for it to die. A well placed 100g partition from a 243 would have dropped it in seconds not minutes.

Also if a gut shot elk didn't run to the bottom of the nastiest shit you can imagine before dying it wasn't a very robust one. IMO.

I guess I was asking more because if you compare a 7prc 180 to a 6 Creed 108 @ 500 yards, you get 6.5in vs 11in of wind drift at 10mph. Also get 10 less inches of drop with the PRC. So those are the benefits I can see, all those numbers get far worse with a 77TMK 223 with 16in drift. The focus in all these threads are all about using better bullets and bullet construction. Are 223 and 6mm suddenly the only quality hunting bullets now? Wouldn't having a much tighter margin for error on you wind calls give you a much higher chance of putting a bullet in the right place since that is also always thrown out as a reason that one or the other is superior?

 

[Long Range 338]

@Long Range 338 Idaho and Alaska with no caliber restriction say “hold our beer”. I personally don’t hunt with .223 but guys are definitely doing it.
View attachment 8433148View attachment 8433149

It’s becoming very popular on rokslide. Also wildcating a 6.5saum or prc down to a 6mm for western game is becoming pretty popular over there.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

I'm from Idaho originally and hunted big game with 6mm Rem, but as I stated before, why would you? Anybody from the area is hunting with something in the 30-06 cartridge class (25-06, 260, etc) of course there are outliers that will use 338 LM and then the smaller .243 cartridges as well.

The whole reason Idaho passed the 16lb weight limit is because guys up north were tripod mounting 50 calibers and shooting elk from the bottom of draw, and the public outrage of "its not sporting".

Again, I'm not stating it can't be done, it's just fucking retarded. It shows a complete lack of respect for the animal you are hunting. 77 gr SMK as the ultimate elk bullet? I'll pass.

We sit here on the forum and call out YouTube guys for shooting a pop can from a mile but take these kinds of stories as gospel? Anybody showing up to any elk camp I've ever been at with a 223 would probably leave with it stuffed up their backside...

 

[clark33]

I’d say taking a 500yd shot in wind at any animal without a kestrel or skill/knowledge to make a somewhat accurate wind call is more unethical than shooting a .223 at an animal.

 

[Long Range 338]

I’d say taking a 500yd shot in wind at any animal without a kestrel or skill/knowledge to make a somewhat accurate wind call is more unethical than shooting a .223 at an animal.

Well, most of the elk hunting states would disagree with the 223 portion of your argument. However I take no exception to the first part of your statement. Regardless off the cartridge I wouldn't be taking shots past about 400 yards unless the variables were very controlled. It is always sad to see wasted carcasses once spring rolls around due to people taking shots past their capabilities that they have no business taking. In general the hunting public doesn't have the marksmanship skills to be shooting past 200 yards.

 

[clark33]

I'm from Idaho originally and hunted big game with 6mm Rem, but as I stated before, why would you? Anybody from the area is hunting with something in the 30-06 cartridge class (25-06, 260, etc) of course there are outliers that will use 338 LM and then the smaller .243 cartridges as well.

The whole reason Idaho passed the 16lb weight limit is because guys up north were tripod mounting 50 calibers and shooting elk from the bottom of draw, and the public outrage of "its not sporting".

Again, I'm not stating it can't be done, it's just fucking retarded. It shows a complete lack of respect for the animal you are hunting. 77 gr SMK as the ultimate elk bullet? I'll pass.

We sit here on the forum and call out YouTube guys for shooting a pop can from a mile but take these kinds of stories as gospel? Anybody showing up to any elk camp I've ever been at with a 223 would probably leave with it stuffed up their backside...

If Overton would have done it with a .223 I might have believed him…. (Sarcasm).

I’d agree if every average weekend warrior who shoots his hunting rifle once 2 days before the season opened was out there slinging .223 at deer and elk. But for competent and current shooters/hunters, I have zero issue with.

 

[Tex68w]

I'll be carrying a 308 this fall for my elk and mule deer hunt. More than enough to get the job done. I have other calibers available but the tried and true fud 308 gets the nod.

 

[brianf]

Yea, maybe. I guess there isn’t any irony in a guy from NY with 1 elk hunt calling people who live and hunt out west every season idiots for not shooting a 300wm.

Who said an idiot. Another member putting words in people mouths.

You want to compare resumes of guides I know “out west” and family that lives out there compared to ones you know and we can swap their stories and opinions.

But if it wasn’t I’m right and your wrong it wouldn’t be the hide ….right

 

[clark33]

@brianf maybe I misinterpreted your use of “idiocy” followed by your nothing less than 300wm comment. You’re not wrong, 300wm works.

I love swapping hunting stories too

 

[brianf]

@brianf maybe I misinterpreted your use of “idiocy” followed by your nothing less than 300wm comment. You’re not wrong, 300wm works.

I love swapping hunting stories too

Not beating dead horse but I said

“I’d never shoot one with a 223”

Reason I stopped at 223…because I’m not a elk slayer lonesome guys are who hunt them every year

 

[clark33]

Not beating dead horse but I said

“I’d never shoot one with a 223”

Reason I stopped at 223…because I’m not a elk slayer lonesome guys are who hunt them every year

It’s a pretty good life

 

[wind gypsy]

Anybody showing up to any elk camp I've ever been at with a 223 would probably leave with it stuffed up their backside...

Sodomy if you don’t show up with a big tough man cartridge.. sounds like an awesome group of guys to share an elk camp with.

 

[sloporsche]

Sodomy if you don’t show up with a big tough man cartridge.. sounds like an awesome group of guys to share an elk camp with.

hit those mean men with your purse

 

[supercorndogs]

I guess I was asking more because if you compare a 7prc 180 to a 6 Creed 108 @ 500 yards, you get 6.5in vs 11in of wind drift at 10mph. Also get 10 less inches of drop with the PRC. So those are the benefits I can see, all those numbers get far worse with a 77TMK 223 with 16in drift. The focus in all these threads are all about using better bullets and bullet construction. Are 223 and 6mm suddenly the only quality hunting bullets now? Wouldn't having a much tighter margin for error on you wind calls give you a much higher chance of putting a bullet in the right place since that is also always thrown out as a reason that one or the other is superior?

Most people do not shoot light magnum rifles well. Which one causes more wounded animals. Bad wind calls or bad shooting?

7mm, you're in the small caliber boat too because people are saying 30 cal minimum. 7mm ain't got enough diameter to kill an elk.

Side note. I really like the 162 eld in my 280.