looking for new hunting rifle for large western game

[joe777]

Went on an elk hunt last fall, no way would I bring a 223. I watched an elk take an immense amount of damage to vitals and neck and keep going. In woods where you don't have time for calculating shit. And yes it got a little spooky gutting the thing at nightfall

My 100lb SIL prefers a 300wsm...

 

[clark33]

Went on an elk hunt last fall, no way would I bring a 223. I watched an elk take an immense amount of damage to vitals and neck and keep going. In woods where you don't have time for calculating shit. And yes it got a little spooky gutting the thing at nightfall

My 100lb SIL prefers a 300wsm...

From reading your post about the elk hunt, it seems like your 200gr federal bonded bullet wasn't doing any internal damage. You think about switching ammo in that thing?

Don't care what cal, if its penciling through it can make things tough.

 

[joe777]

From reading your post about the elk hunt, it seems like your 200gr federal bonded bullet wasn't doing any internal damage. You think about switching ammo in that thing?

Don't care what cal, if its penciling through it can make things tough.

It's unverified if it was penciling through and at the distance it was shot it was a good thing to have a big ass bullet. Anyone who hunts a lot knows sometimes you gotta take a quartering away/towards shot and that's where a big bullet shines.
Sure a 77 grain can kill with a perfect broadside or neck shot but that's its limit. From what I saw elk can vary in size quite a bit from probably 200-500+ for cows. The one that took a all the damage was probably a 500 or more cow. The bones were much harder than deer, I don't think a 77 would make it much past the shoulder bone. Even a 100 gr 243 might not penetrate on a solid bone shot, in my opinion.

 

[clark33]

It's unverified if it was penciling through and at the distance it was shot it was a good thing to have a big ass bullet. Anyone who hunts a lot knows sometimes you gotta take a quartering away/towards shot and that's where a big bullet shines.
Sure a 77 grain can kill with a perfect broadside or neck shot but that's its limit. From what I saw elk can vary in size quite a bit from probably 200-500+ for cows. The one that took an all the damage was probably a 500 or more cow. The bones were much harder than deer, I don't think a 77 would make it much past the shoulder bone. Even a 100 gr 243 might not penetrate on a solid bone shot, in my opinion.

Thank you for your opinion. I’d maybe look at the 300wsm precision hunter or Norma ammo

 

[Long Range 338]

Sodomy if you don’t show up with a big tough man cartridge.. sounds like an awesome group of guys to share an elk camp with.

Yeah, we’re real men who like real women so of course the comment was figurative. But if you had concerns you’re probably camping out with the wrong bunch of guys. Hurt feelings never killed anyone that I’m aware of and would just bring extra unwanted attention, better to just bring something super magnum like a 243 - which would make your rifle legal btw.

Hunting, it’s like golf, but for men…

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

People have attempted to downplay kinetic energy all over this thread.

I'll try to simplify the error in this logic:

Kinetic energy may not be that important, until you hit a bone. Then it may be the most important thing happening on the mountain that afternoon.

 

[ObiJohn]

@Long Range 338 Idaho and Alaska with no caliber restriction say “hold our beer”. I personally don’t hunt with .223 but guys are definitely doing it.
View attachment 8433148View attachment 8433149

It’s becoming very popular on rokslide. Also wildcating a 6.5saum or prc down to a 6mm for western game is becoming pretty popular over there.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

I call BS. No way a 77 gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec does more damage than a 100 gr .243 bullet at 2400 ft/sec+ does on a deer (dropped, a high shoulder broadside shot, no fist-sized hole on the other side), or a 150 gr '06 bullet at 2700 ft/sec+ does on a deer (ran 25 yards with destroyed lungs and a torn heart, and a quarter-sized exit hole), or a 52 gr JHP .223 Rem at 3000 ft/sec+ on a coyote (DRT on a frontal chest shot that raked the spine and exited the back at the bottom of the rib cage, no pelt damage). Not buying it. A .223 77 gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec is going to pencil through unless it hits a bone, and at that velocity won't have enough energy to blow up that bone. A spine shot would drop the elk, but anyone who can hit a 3" line consistently at close to 700 yards from a hunting position is holding better than 1/2 MOA.

More likely they carved on those elk with that knife to recover bullets... or they were much closer. And I want to see the misses, and the apparent misses that went off and died out of sight and not recovered. You know they exist, because they exist with bad shots from bigger calibers.

Do I think deer and elk, etc., can be responsibly taken at extended ranges, past 500-600 yards? Yes, With a .223 Remington shooting 77 gr bullets? No. At 287 yards? Pushing it... it took two shots and at least one was a gut shot.

What will a 6mm SAUM or PRC do that a 6.8 Western won't?

 

[ObiJohn]

People have attempted to downplay kinetic energy all over this thread.

I'll try to simplify the error in this logic:

Kinetic energy may not be that important, until you hit a bone. Then it may be the most important thing happening on the mountain that afternoon.

Yep. Kinetic energy gets more important as shot placement is less optimal, and as distance increases. A spine or brain shot kills anything. What happens when you pencil one of those 77 gr .233 bullets through the flesh of the neck at 687 yards? A wounded elk that runs away as if not hit and dies a couple of hours (or days) later and a couple of miles away. With a more powerful cartridge that retains more kinetic energy at that distance? A larger temporary cavity causing enough tissue displacement to shock the spine or tear a carotid artery.

After two decades of experience fighting in the Afghanistan mountains, why did the US Army decide on a .277 over the .223/77 gr?

 

[Turkeytider]

Yep. Kinetic energy gets more important as shot placement is less optimal, and as distance increases. A spine or brain shot kills anything. What happens when you pencil one of those 77 gr .233 bullets through the flesh of the neck at 687 yards? A wounded elk that runs away as if not hit and dies a couple of hours (or days) later and a couple of miles away. With a more powerful cartridge that retains more kinetic energy at that distance? A larger temporary cavity causing enough tissue displacement to shock the spine or tear a carotid artery.

After two decades of experience fighting in the Afghanistan mountains, why did the US Army decide on a .277 over the .223/77 gr?

Well, as to your last question, based on the ardor of support for the .223, there is a contingent on Rokslide that would answer your question with, " Because the US Army is stupid ".

 

[clark33]

I call BS. No way a 77 gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec does more damage than a 100 gr .243 bullet at 2400 ft/sec+ does on a deer (dropped, a high shoulder broadside shot, no fist-sized hole on the other side), or a 150 gr '06 bullet at 2700 ft/sec+ does on a deer (ran 25 yards with destroyed lungs and a torn heart, and a quarter-sized exit hole), or a 52 gr JHP .223 Rem at 3000 ft/sec+ on a coyote (DRT on a frontal chest shot that raked the spine and exited the back at the bottom of the rib cage, no pelt damage). Not buying it. A .223 77 gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec is going to pencil through unless it hits a bone, and at that velocity won't have enough energy to blow up that bone. A spine shot would drop the elk, but anyone who can hit a 3" line consistently at close to 700 yards from a hunting position is holding better than 1/2 MOA.

More likely they carved on those elk with that knife to recover bullets... or they were much closer. And I want to see the misses, and the apparent misses that went off and died out of sight and not recovered. You know they exist, because they exist with bad shots from bigger calibers.

Do I think deer and elk, etc., can be responsibly taken at extended ranges, past 500-600 yards? Yes, With a .223 Remington shooting 77 gr bullets? No. At 287 yards? Pushing it... it took two shots and at least one was a gut shot.

What will a 6mm SAUM or PRC do that a 6.8 Western won't?

Call BS all you want, they have and will continue to shoot .223 and .243/6mm at elk. You don't have to agree, but there is evidence it can be done. I wouldn't take it personal, use a magnum and all will be right in your world.

the 6saum/prc cuts the wind well, they're pushing a 115dtac at like 3200-3300fps in a 18-20" barrel, allowing good performance in a short packable package even while running a suppressor. If you reload its actually a pretty sweet cartridge. Even today there aren't nearly as many heavy for caliber options in .277 as there are in 6 or 6.5 or 7 or 300.
They did a podcast with ADG and it sounded like ADG was going to make a run of the necked down 6.5saum brass so guys wouldn't have to neck it down themselves and do any fire forming.

This will probably make your head explode:

 

[clark33]

Well, as to your last question, based on the ardor of support for the .223, there is a contingent on Rokslide that would answer your question with, " Because the US Army is stupid ".

LOL What? If I had to try and shoot an elk that was wearing plates through a wall or barricade I'd take a .277fmj. Different applications and bullets we're talking about here.

 

[ma smith]

peope in this thread confusing 77 tmk with SMK are also hillarious

 

[gopherslayer]

Keep going guys. It’s raining and I’m trapped in my camper until it dries out this afternoon. Drinking coffee and dogs are next to me snoozing. I need the entertainment LOL.

 

[joe777]

Since when did 300wsm or 300wm become such a huge hard kicking caliber

For real though I have a 8.5lb 338wm and the first time I shot it didn't think it was nearly as bad as people said

 

[clark33]

Since when did 300wsm or 300wm become such a huge hard kicking caliber

For real though I have a 8.5lb 338wm and the first time I shot it didn't think it was nearly as bad as people said

There's a sub set of hunters who are trying to be more competent/proficient with their hunting rifles. Guys that like to make a range trip and shoot 100 + rounds in varying positions and ranges. A lot went to 6.5, 6 and 223 because no one wants to shoot a 300, 338 mag 100+ times in a day. Recoil/blast fatigue is a real thing and bad habits develop. A lot of them are involved in PRS or NRL Hunter.

Its not that it "kicks" to hard, its just not conducive to shoot all day long, not to mention the hit the wallet would take.

Most casual hunters I know take the rifle out a week or so before the season, take a few shots at 100yds, zero it for 1.5-2" high at 100 and call it good.

 

[Turkeytider]

Keep going guys. It’s raining and I’m trapped in my camper until it dries out this afternoon. Drinking coffee and dogs are next to me snoozing. I need the entertainment LOL.

You`ll have to depend on somebody else. This whole thing is actually going nowhere.

 

[sloporsche]

US army announces they are fielding the new future anti-tank rifle round, a 6 mm creepmore .

 

[gopherslayer]

You`ll have to depend on somebody else. This whole thing is actually going nowhere.

Boo this man!

 

[gopherslayer]

There's a sub set of hunters who are trying to be more competent/proficient with their hunting rifles. Guys that like to make a range trip and shoot 100 + rounds in varying positions and ranges. A lot went to 6.5, 6 and 223 because no one wants to shoot a 300, 338 mag 100+ times in a day. Recoil/blast fatigue is a real thing and bad habits develop. A lot of them are involved in PRS or NRL Hunter.

Its not that it "kicks" to hard, its just not conducive to shoot all day long, not to mention the hit the wallet would take.

Most casual hunters I know take the rifle out a week or so before the season, take a few shots at 100yds, zero it for 1.5-2" high at 100 and call it good.

Back when I used to go to a range to shoot I saw a guy shoot one shot through his 30-06 pump Remington with the ubiquitous see-thru mounts and blister pack Bushnell and it impacted 4” high dead center. He was ecstatic and said he wasn’t touching anything. No scope adjustment needed he said. Think of the money that guy saved.

 

[clark33]

Back when I used to go to a range to shoot I saw a guy shoot one shot through his 30-06 pump Remington with the ubiquitous see-thru mounts and blister pack Bushnell and it impacted 4” high dead center. He was ecstatic and said he wasn’t touching anything. No scope adjustment needed he said. Think of the money that guy saved.

 

[HMRamateur]

Boo this man!

 

[ObiJohn]

Call BS all you want, they have and will continue to shoot .223 and .243/6mm at elk. You don't have to agree, but there is evidence it can be done. I wouldn't take it personal, use a magnum and all will be right in your world.

the 6saum/prc cuts the wind well, they're pushing a 115dtac at like 3200-3300fps in a 18-20" barrel, allowing good performance in a short packable package even while running a suppressor. If you reload its actually a pretty sweet cartridge. Even today there aren't nearly as many heavy for caliber options in .277 as there are in 6 or 6.5 or 7 or 300.
They did a podcast with ADG and it sounded like ADG was going to make a run of the necked down 6.5saum brass so guys wouldn't have to neck it down themselves and do any fire forming.

This will probably make your head explode:

The. 243 Win with a 1:7" twist is hard on barrels. The barrel life on a 6 SAUM is much shorter. The .223 is a good practice and target round, even at extended range, economical, easy to shoot, easy on barrels. The 6.8 Western is much more effective on big game, certainly much more so past 300 yards than .223/6mm alternatives. Can't theae guys afford more than one rifle?

 

[clark33]

The. 243 Win with a 1:7" twist is hard on barrels. The barrel life on a 6 SAUM is much shorter. The .223 is a good practice and target round, even at extended range, economical, easy to shoot, easy on barrels. The 6.8 Western is much more effective on big game, certainly much more so past 300 yards than .223/6mm alternatives. Can't theae guys afford more than one rifle?

Barrels are a perishable good and prefits exist.

 

[ObiJohn]

Barrels are a perishable good and prefits exist.

Great! Get a .223 for practice, a 6/6.5/6.8/7/7.62 for hunting big game, swap barrels and bolt heads/bolts accordingly! Barrels are a perishable good and prefits exist... as do interchangeable bolts/bolt faces, and rifles for that matter.

 

[clark33]

Great! Get a .223 for practice, a 6 for hunting big game, swap barrels and bolt heads/bolts accordingly! Barrels are a perishable good and prefits exist... as do interchangeable bolts/bolt faces, and rifles for that matter.

Sounds like you got it figured out (FIFY). Show us a pic of it when you're done with your build.

 

[Eurodriver]

Most people do not shoot light magnum rifles well. Which one causes more wounded animals. Bad wind calls or bad shooting?

7mm, you're in the small caliber boat too because people are saying 30 cal minimum. 7mm ain't got enough diameter to kill an elk.

Side note. I really like the 162 eld in my 280.

Define “light”. Define “magnum”.

Are brakes included in this statement? Suppressors?

I’d tend to agree, but I know quite a few guys in their 70s shooting black bears off river boats (unpowered) with 338 Win Mags successfully every single season.

Edit - not being argumentative. I agree with your statement. I am just wondering where the threshold lies in your opinion. I also have skin in the game as I’m about to receive a 9lb suppressed 300 WSM

 

[omicron1792]

I've missed my share of coyotes, maybe more than my share. Anyone who claims they aren't missing coyotes is either lying, or they aren't calling any. But no, I've seen coyotes take more .223 rounds and run off than every other cartridge combined. Coyotes are tough though, tougher than a whitetail deer for sure.

Use a better bullet

 

[Forrest84]

fyi if you are going to get a tikka, check out grabagun.com and their price quote. just bought a lefty tikka t3x lite in 7rm to scavenge the action for a 6.5 prc build (proof carbon barrel and pure precision altitude stock). $810, 10 ship. jaoutdoors is selling the same action only for $875. the lite's aren't threaded for cans or brakes, but the veil and roughtech models are.

Model 70's are fantastic, sometimes they need to have the barrel floated and action bedded to get them to shoot well. No idea how the new MOA triggers are but the older models were easy to adjust. It is the Rifleman's Rifle for good reason.

I'd opt for the '06 myself, I like a 30cal or larger for an elk rifle. Depending on where you're going in Wyoming you'll really want that 30cal or bigger because we have these big fluffy things that love to eat people and they're fucking everywhere in the west side of the state. I have them in my yard often and can't hunt without running into them. Pic below is 100yds from my driveway.
View attachment 8432952

I shoot a 300winmag, 300 Norma mag and a 338winmag(Model 70) for elk rifles and I've killed ALOT of elk. Whomever suggests a 223 for elk is fucking retarded and I don't use that word lightly! I know a shit ton of elk hunters and none of them are dumb enough to use light rifles. 6.5 transgender is as light as I'd ever go, sure as heck wouldn't be my first choice. Its usually what we start our kids with then they graduate to a real rifle as they get to be older...

Yeah I don't fuck with bears. I used to work in Alaska when i got out of the Marines in 06. I've been charged twice by brown bears. I don't care what anybody says I'm terrified of them. lol

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Use a better bullet

You could try, but you won't name one that I haven't used. I shoot a 6arc now for about the last 5 years. Same platform, and they die where they are shot. It's a non-issue.

 

[jbuck88]

I try to not chime in on the 223 for elk roksliders. But holy fuck it's hard.

Yes, accuracy trumps energy. But like the .410 is to the 12ga. It takes more skill to throw less pellets/lead and still be effective.

 

[Forrest84]

Settled on a Tikka 300wsm and a grey bough stock, ammo comes in tomorrow so I’ll start shooting saturday morning

 

[sloporsche]

300 win mag in any dependable brand hunting rifle ....browning , ruger , savage etc and 500 $+ plus scope using major factory hunting ammo ....a good old fudd gun

 

[Turkeytider]

Yeah I don't fuck with bears. I used to work in Alaska when i got out of the Marines in 06. I've been charged twice by brown bears. I don't care what anybody says I'm terrified of them. lol

Charged twice by brownies and still with us. Lucky man! Yeah, wouldn`t fool with them either. Just personally never had any desire to shoot an animal like that.

 

[Forrest84]

Thank you for your opinion. I’d maybe look at the 300wsm precision hunter or Norma ammo

Tested the 300wsm precision hunter today and had an SD of 8 out of 10 shots, so far so good. It’s just slow but I’ll take consistency over speed any day

 

[Forrest84]

Charged twice by brownies and still with us. Lucky man! Yeah, wouldn`t fool with them either. Just personally never had any desire to shoot an animal like that.

Yeah it left an impression on me, I’ve been in my fare share of gunfights and I’d take that of over another bear charge. I’ll never go in bear country again without a good sidearm and even then it’s iffy. I’ve watched stalk geology interns while flying around in helicopters through dense alder patches on their belly’s moving as fast as I run and you won’t even hear it till they are on top of you