Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
- Thread starter Blue Line
- Start date
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Anyways Google Wilson Combat lotta people seem to have a boner about them maybe they are what you're looking for
Anyways Google Wilson Combat lotta people seem to have a boner about them maybe they are what you're looking for
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Blue Line, I'd go to 10-8Forums and ask the same question there. That site is for Cops and Military guys without all of the bullshit.
Blue Line, I'd go to 10-8Forums and ask the same question there. That site is for Cops and Military guys without all of the bullshit.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here.</div></div>
Outstanding.
Thank you sir for your service to the public, and more importantly your respect for the public. I don't know you but based on your attitude my guess is that you have a keen understanding and respect for the Constitution and my hat is off to you for not becoming jaded in your attitude towards the citizenry at large, something understandably easy to do in law enforcement.
These kind of threads are becoming more and more common because of the backlash from the over-militarization of the police. The exponential growth of no-knock warrants and SWAT teams that haven't always been appropriately trained and deployed hasn't helped. The result is the perception that our nations police forces operate as if taking down the bad guy is more important than our rights as American citizens.
Once again, thank you for being the voice of reason in a tough job that requires reason, integrity, and good judgement to do correctly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here.</div></div>
Outstanding.
Thank you sir for your service to the public, and more importantly your respect for the public. I don't know you but based on your attitude my guess is that you have a keen understanding and respect for the Constitution and my hat is off to you for not becoming jaded in your attitude towards the citizenry at large, something understandably easy to do in law enforcement.
These kind of threads are becoming more and more common because of the backlash from the over-militarization of the police. The exponential growth of no-knock warrants and SWAT teams that haven't always been appropriately trained and deployed hasn't helped. The result is the perception that our nations police forces operate as if taking down the bad guy is more important than our rights as American citizens.
Once again, thank you for being the voice of reason in a tough job that requires reason, integrity, and good judgement to do correctly.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PoserHater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP doesn't need your approval to get a FA weapon. He already stated what his department wanted. Stop being a clown. Your just a fireman. Go drag a hose............. </div></div>
And you are? Oh yes, the random voice from nowhere coming in to sidetrack a topic that was put back on topic again.
I think you had best look at my previous posts, but since you can't...
I have shot just about EVERY weapon system that the U.S. Army has to offer in my wonderful tenure there as a Non-Commissioned Officer. From Mark 19s(That's an automatic grenade launcher to you) to the M24. M9, M11, MP5s, M4s, M16A1-A2-A4, M249s, M240s, and the wonderful, skin burning M2.
But I don't have to be some random troll, because there are plenty of Charlie Sheen topics out there for you to invade.
Now if you don't mind I've got to go save a kitten in a tree and let some bitches carry my hose.
Back to the freaking topic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PoserHater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP doesn't need your approval to get a FA weapon. He already stated what his department wanted. Stop being a clown. Your just a fireman. Go drag a hose............. </div></div>
And you are? Oh yes, the random voice from nowhere coming in to sidetrack a topic that was put back on topic again.
I think you had best look at my previous posts, but since you can't...
I have shot just about EVERY weapon system that the U.S. Army has to offer in my wonderful tenure there as a Non-Commissioned Officer. From Mark 19s(That's an automatic grenade launcher to you) to the M24. M9, M11, MP5s, M4s, M16A1-A2-A4, M249s, M240s, and the wonderful, skin burning M2.
But I don't have to be some random troll, because there are plenty of Charlie Sheen topics out there for you to invade.
Now if you don't mind I've got to go save a kitten in a tree and let some bitches carry my hose.
Back to the freaking topic.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PoserHater</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>
If deadly force is authorized, it doesn't matter how many times someone gets shot. Police can shoot until the threat is stopped. All you liberal left wing clowns can STFU!!!! Cops need to quit posting on the hide too. I am tired of all the posers on this site!!!!!! </div></div>
It's very clear you don't understand the political or constitutional arguments at hand. Support of no knock warrants has alwas been a left wing stance. Public outcry against SWAT and the use of deadly force is nearly always championed by conservatives (unless the victim is a minority and then it has nothing to do with politics). "the use of deadly force" is never authorized by or for law enforcement. They have the same right and responsibility to protect and defend life; theirs and yours from threats. Before you call ANYONE out you might try to understand the issue at hand. And since te issue you are commenting on isn't the OPs question: choose another place to "Poser Hate" which I'm pretty sure means Troll.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PoserHater</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>
If deadly force is authorized, it doesn't matter how many times someone gets shot. Police can shoot until the threat is stopped. All you liberal left wing clowns can STFU!!!! Cops need to quit posting on the hide too. I am tired of all the posers on this site!!!!!! </div></div>
It's very clear you don't understand the political or constitutional arguments at hand. Support of no knock warrants has alwas been a left wing stance. Public outcry against SWAT and the use of deadly force is nearly always championed by conservatives (unless the victim is a minority and then it has nothing to do with politics). "the use of deadly force" is never authorized by or for law enforcement. They have the same right and responsibility to protect and defend life; theirs and yours from threats. Before you call ANYONE out you might try to understand the issue at hand. And since te issue you are commenting on isn't the OPs question: choose another place to "Poser Hate" which I'm pretty sure means Troll.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Imports, just so you quit posting Wilson Combat, I will call them in a few and see what they say. Don't get me wrong, great company I just need to see what options they have and get a price.
WOW I'm not sure if they are the best but they are the highest!
Imports, just so you quit posting Wilson Combat, I will call them in a few and see what they say. Don't get me wrong, great company I just need to see what options they have and get a price.
WOW I'm not sure if they are the best but they are the highest!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Poser Hater,
Save your rage for all the DeltaRangerSEAL wannabes that creep in on here.
Go outside for a smoke break or something.
Everyone else back off him... Give out some apologies to make it better, and above all...
Get back to the full auto weaponry!
Poser Hater,
Save your rage for all the DeltaRangerSEAL wannabes that creep in on here.
Go outside for a smoke break or something.
Everyone else back off him... Give out some apologies to make it better, and above all...
Get back to the full auto weaponry!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here. </div></div>
+1,000,000
Tactical that post there my be one of the best post I've ever read.
I respect you and your opinions much more after that post, not that I didn't before but you learn alot about people by what comes out of their mouth/ their fingers.
And usually the people that say the least know the most, just saying and when they choose to talk it's important to listen.
Everyone else that pretends to know their shit and wants to run their mouth/post count up,well isn't worth the time it takes to read thier posts.
The above is directed at no one in particular just saying anyone and everyone, including 12yr old mall ninjas can be a member here and have a 10K post count so don't believe everything you read here/anywhere.
To the OP, I would suggest Noveske, LMT, or BCM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here. </div></div>
+1,000,000
Tactical that post there my be one of the best post I've ever read.
I respect you and your opinions much more after that post, not that I didn't before but you learn alot about people by what comes out of their mouth/ their fingers.
And usually the people that say the least know the most, just saying and when they choose to talk it's important to listen.
Everyone else that pretends to know their shit and wants to run their mouth/post count up,well isn't worth the time it takes to read thier posts.
The above is directed at no one in particular just saying anyone and everyone, including 12yr old mall ninjas can be a member here and have a 10K post count so don't believe everything you read here/anywhere.
To the OP, I would suggest Noveske, LMT, or BCM.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
ok ill play...hi point 9mm carbines (duel weilded) with bsa red dots ftw.
ok ill play...hi point 9mm carbines (duel weilded) with bsa red dots ftw.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
this is awsome, I'm getting a free internet commando lesson on shorthand by PoserHater......STFU, GTFO, BRB, BFF pure awsome, thank you PH! keep them coming I need new internet shorthand terms
this is awsome, I'm getting a free internet commando lesson on shorthand by PoserHater......STFU, GTFO, BRB, BFF pure awsome, thank you PH! keep them coming I need new internet shorthand terms
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Gentlemen,
I have not read all the entries, but wanted add that even though the piston driven systems can make the "short" SBR's (11.5 and under) work very well it does not change the fact the round itself will not perform as needed at the velocity produced by such a short barrel. The round needs to run somewhere above 2700fps to fragment and yaw properly and consistantly. Anywhere below that and your just shooting a realy fast dart. In fact at less than 2700fps you get over penetration and a very small hole. On H&K's website they sate the 416C (9") only gets about 2300fps. SOCOM types have moved to a 77gr bullet in their M4's, which are 14" guns (for the most part). They loose some of the rounds ability to penetrate things for a need to increase soft tissue damage. And the farther the target the worse it gets. SAAMI states you lose about 30fps per inch of barrel length lost. From the tests I have seen the lose increases as the barrel gets shorter. Just food for thought in case you think your getting the same weapon as a 14" M4 or a 16" M16A4 (F/A).
Let me know what you ultimately go with as we are thinking about dumping our UMP's for a rifle round, but are hesitate because of the length of barrel we need to go to to make the round work.
Gentlemen,
I have not read all the entries, but wanted add that even though the piston driven systems can make the "short" SBR's (11.5 and under) work very well it does not change the fact the round itself will not perform as needed at the velocity produced by such a short barrel. The round needs to run somewhere above 2700fps to fragment and yaw properly and consistantly. Anywhere below that and your just shooting a realy fast dart. In fact at less than 2700fps you get over penetration and a very small hole. On H&K's website they sate the 416C (9") only gets about 2300fps. SOCOM types have moved to a 77gr bullet in their M4's, which are 14" guns (for the most part). They loose some of the rounds ability to penetrate things for a need to increase soft tissue damage. And the farther the target the worse it gets. SAAMI states you lose about 30fps per inch of barrel length lost. From the tests I have seen the lose increases as the barrel gets shorter. Just food for thought in case you think your getting the same weapon as a 14" M4 or a 16" M16A4 (F/A).
Let me know what you ultimately go with as we are thinking about dumping our UMP's for a rifle round, but are hesitate because of the length of barrel we need to go to to make the round work.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Out of SBR its mainly about Bullet selection, Any of the bonded bullets should work well with the SBR. The Military loads are for the geneva conventions. Law enforcement does not have to stay with those loads. I would look for a Hornady Tap, Barnes, etc. Have some Green tip on hand for dealing with armored threats, The Army is issuing a new Green tip to soldiers overseas .
http://www.army.mil/article/41283/army-begins-shipping-improved-556mm-cartridge/
Out of SBR its mainly about Bullet selection, Any of the bonded bullets should work well with the SBR. The Military loads are for the geneva conventions. Law enforcement does not have to stay with those loads. I would look for a Hornady Tap, Barnes, etc. Have some Green tip on hand for dealing with armored threats, The Army is issuing a new Green tip to soldiers overseas .
http://www.army.mil/article/41283/army-begins-shipping-improved-556mm-cartridge/
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad part is Hi-Point is made in Ohio. Great, I just threw up in my mouth. </div></div>
Hey hey hey! Don't go knocking highpoint. Their pistols have their use. If your run out of ammo it has the same effect as a brick if thrown.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad part is Hi-Point is made in Ohio. Great, I just threw up in my mouth. </div></div>
Hey hey hey! Don't go knocking highpoint. Their pistols have their use. If your run out of ammo it has the same effect as a brick if thrown.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
Do all team members who are issued them really know how to properly drive a gun that short? Or are we back to the theory that the ranges are so short that skill doesn't matter.
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun.
Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
Do all team members who are issued them really know how to properly drive a gun that short? Or are we back to the theory that the ranges are so short that skill doesn't matter.
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
Do all team members who are issued them really know how to properly drive a gun that short? Or are we back to the theory that the ranges are so short that skill doesn't matter.
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun. </div></div>
Well I can't speak for other guys but here where I work, the places we usually hit are walk up apartments in multiple dwelling buildings. I would say 8 times out of 10, the target apartment is a hoarders dream. Shit piled everywhere, sub-divided rooms, and confined spaces. It is much easier to wield a short barreled weapon and be able to maneuver throughout a structure that is pretty confined as opposed to doing so when having a longer barrel. Shit doesn't get snagged as much.
It's one of the best things about the MP-5 IMO. Our firearms instructors were certified by Phil Singleton from Singleton INTL.
I agree 100% that it isn't always about the gun or the round but more so with shot placement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
Do all team members who are issued them really know how to properly drive a gun that short? Or are we back to the theory that the ranges are so short that skill doesn't matter.
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun. </div></div>
Well I can't speak for other guys but here where I work, the places we usually hit are walk up apartments in multiple dwelling buildings. I would say 8 times out of 10, the target apartment is a hoarders dream. Shit piled everywhere, sub-divided rooms, and confined spaces. It is much easier to wield a short barreled weapon and be able to maneuver throughout a structure that is pretty confined as opposed to doing so when having a longer barrel. Shit doesn't get snagged as much.
It's one of the best things about the MP-5 IMO. Our firearms instructors were certified by Phil Singleton from Singleton INTL.
I agree 100% that it isn't always about the gun or the round but more so with shot placement.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun. </div></div>
I agree that it's not about the gun and a shorter barrel is not going to improve proficiency.
I do prefer a shorter barrel for getting into and out of the armor. I am also very careful not to sweep the man in front of me with my muzzle and the shorter barrel makes maneuvering a bit easier if I need to switch from the left side of the guy in front of me to the right side. A shorter barrel is also easier to deal with if you have to sling the rifle for handcuffing or other tasks.
We shoot a soft point, bonded bullet and it performs well out of the shorter barrels. We had Federal out last year and put some rounds into ballistic gelatin and through various barriers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do so-called 'entry guns' have to have 9-12" barrels anyway?
'cause I'm thinking out loud, again, that it's not about the gun. </div></div>
I agree that it's not about the gun and a shorter barrel is not going to improve proficiency.
I do prefer a shorter barrel for getting into and out of the armor. I am also very careful not to sweep the man in front of me with my muzzle and the shorter barrel makes maneuvering a bit easier if I need to switch from the left side of the guy in front of me to the right side. A shorter barrel is also easier to deal with if you have to sling the rifle for handcuffing or other tasks.
We shoot a soft point, bonded bullet and it performs well out of the shorter barrels. We had Federal out last year and put some rounds into ballistic gelatin and through various barriers.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Nope. Like your mom.
Fucking moron.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Nope. Like your mom.
Fucking moron.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Don't call somebody up to his neck in a DTO, (Drug Traficking Organization) most of which on the border are made up by latino families, a returning vet. The detectives doing surveillance on his house got tailed by a family member for 11 miles and then their license plate was run by a dirty MVD employee the next day. Read the search warrant affidavit I linked to below the SWAT team was briefed on the investigation the risks and read the affidavit.
Read the affidavit, pretend you're a cop for a day and we send you in through the door. A dirty former US marine you know is now probably working for Mexican drug cartels points a AR at you (proven by the angle of impacts on the weapon he was holding). Are you going to wait or shoot?
Realize the media is in business to make money. In the future find the agencies press releases and read some public records before you buy the slanted view by some pot smoking hippie journalist and believe law enforcement has turned against the citizens they protect.
And if they had screwed up do you want to limit all the LE agencies who have to face the cartels and border war becuase of one incident? That sound like the BS logic that has led to gun law after gun law by mob mentality legislators because of one idiot with a gun incidents. Instead of a reasoned approach based on the belief that we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Rember law enforcement is made up of CITIZENS and if you don't believe they have the right to F/A weapons for self defense in high risk situations obviously no CITIZEN should have that right.
I'm an NRA life member so if you're not a politically active current paid member of a gun rights organization stop now because you're the problem.
Read some facts:
At this link is the search warrant affidavit the SWAT team read.
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_39310ee6-8d90-11e0-af6b-001cc4c002e0.html
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Don't call somebody up to his neck in a DTO, (Drug Traficking Organization) most of which on the border are made up by latino families, a returning vet. The detectives doing surveillance on his house got tailed by a family member for 11 miles and then their license plate was run by a dirty MVD employee the next day. Read the search warrant affidavit I linked to below the SWAT team was briefed on the investigation the risks and read the affidavit.
Read the affidavit, pretend you're a cop for a day and we send you in through the door. A dirty former US marine you know is now probably working for Mexican drug cartels points a AR at you (proven by the angle of impacts on the weapon he was holding). Are you going to wait or shoot?
Realize the media is in business to make money. In the future find the agencies press releases and read some public records before you buy the slanted view by some pot smoking hippie journalist and believe law enforcement has turned against the citizens they protect.
And if they had screwed up do you want to limit all the LE agencies who have to face the cartels and border war becuase of one incident? That sound like the BS logic that has led to gun law after gun law by mob mentality legislators because of one idiot with a gun incidents. Instead of a reasoned approach based on the belief that we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Rember law enforcement is made up of CITIZENS and if you don't believe they have the right to F/A weapons for self defense in high risk situations obviously no CITIZEN should have that right.
I'm an NRA life member so if you're not a politically active current paid member of a gun rights organization stop now because you're the problem.
Read some facts:
At this link is the search warrant affidavit the SWAT team read.
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_39310ee6-8d90-11e0-af6b-001cc4c002e0.html
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
THREADROMANCY!
Since the OP has stopped posting here I think we can reasonably assume you're just stirring shit.
If you want to support or attack the motives, methods, equipment, and politics surrounding the Jose Guerena case I suggest the Bear Pit. But I'm not a mod, just a guy.
THREADROMANCY!
Since the OP has stopped posting here I think we can reasonably assume you're just stirring shit.
If you want to support or attack the motives, methods, equipment, and politics surrounding the Jose Guerena case I suggest the Bear Pit. But I'm not a mod, just a guy.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
I notice you glazed over the dog part. I didnt mind the first time, nor the second, nor the 100th but when it gets into the 1000's and 10's of thousands then its a bit much. The swat teams are out of control. What about the student loan swat team last week? Wow! Plenty of bogus animal killings and out of control trigger happy swat teams. Dont even attempt to name call me some liberal. Lifetime NRA and constitutional conservative and supporter of the military here. There is no accountability for anyone in charge anymore. Swat-Cops kill animals with impunity for no reason, elected officials break laws with no recourse, ATF runs guns into Mexico in an attempt to get semi-autos banned. The whole system is broken. No one gets prosecuted! Kill a dog and see what happens to you. You'll do prison time. Swat teams do it because they can. Is a Chihuahua dangerous to a decked out swat team, they shoot those too. I dont care about the crack dealer but I do care about the dogs. As a dog owner it makes me sick to hear about these senseless killings taking place. Agree or disagree this is still America for now and thats my opinion. Im sticking by it.
Or this dog killing of the Mayor family pets laying in the kitchen doing nothing....
http://youtu.be/DYQD-btqhKg
Heres a 3rd burst into a dog laying down...
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=8140686
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 224Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Don't call somebody up to his neck in a DTO, (Drug Traficking Organization) most of which on the border are made up by latino families, a returning vet. The detectives doing surveillance on his house got tailed by a family member for 11 miles and then their license plate was run by a dirty MVD employee the next day. Read the search warrant affidavit I linked to below the SWAT team was briefed on the investigation the risks and read the affidavit.
Read the affidavit, pretend you're a cop for a day and we send you in through the door. A dirty former US marine you know is now probably working for Mexican drug cartels points a AR at you (proven by the angle of impacts on the weapon he was holding). Are you going to wait or shoot?
Realize the media is in business to make money. In the future find the agencies press releases and read some public records before you buy the slanted view by some pot smoking hippie journalist and believe law enforcement has turned against the citizens they protect.
And if they had screwed up do you want to limit all the LE agencies who have to face the cartels and border war becuase of one incident? That sound like the BS logic that has led to gun law after gun law by mob mentality legislators because of one idiot with a gun incidents. Instead of a reasoned approach based on the belief that we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Rember law enforcement is made up of CITIZENS and if you don't believe they have the right to F/A weapons for self defense in high risk situations obviously no CITIZEN should have that right.
I'm an NRA life member so if you're not a politically active current paid member of a gun rights organization stop now because you're the problem.
Read some facts:
At this link is the search warrant affidavit the SWAT team read.
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_39310ee6-8d90-11e0-af6b-001cc4c002e0.html </div></div>
I notice you glazed over the dog part. I didnt mind the first time, nor the second, nor the 100th but when it gets into the 1000's and 10's of thousands then its a bit much. The swat teams are out of control. What about the student loan swat team last week? Wow! Plenty of bogus animal killings and out of control trigger happy swat teams. Dont even attempt to name call me some liberal. Lifetime NRA and constitutional conservative and supporter of the military here. There is no accountability for anyone in charge anymore. Swat-Cops kill animals with impunity for no reason, elected officials break laws with no recourse, ATF runs guns into Mexico in an attempt to get semi-autos banned. The whole system is broken. No one gets prosecuted! Kill a dog and see what happens to you. You'll do prison time. Swat teams do it because they can. Is a Chihuahua dangerous to a decked out swat team, they shoot those too. I dont care about the crack dealer but I do care about the dogs. As a dog owner it makes me sick to hear about these senseless killings taking place. Agree or disagree this is still America for now and thats my opinion. Im sticking by it.
Or this dog killing of the Mayor family pets laying in the kitchen doing nothing....
http://youtu.be/DYQD-btqhKg
Heres a 3rd burst into a dog laying down...
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=8140686
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 224Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
</div></div>
Don't call somebody up to his neck in a DTO, (Drug Traficking Organization) most of which on the border are made up by latino families, a returning vet. The detectives doing surveillance on his house got tailed by a family member for 11 miles and then their license plate was run by a dirty MVD employee the next day. Read the search warrant affidavit I linked to below the SWAT team was briefed on the investigation the risks and read the affidavit.
Read the affidavit, pretend you're a cop for a day and we send you in through the door. A dirty former US marine you know is now probably working for Mexican drug cartels points a AR at you (proven by the angle of impacts on the weapon he was holding). Are you going to wait or shoot?
Realize the media is in business to make money. In the future find the agencies press releases and read some public records before you buy the slanted view by some pot smoking hippie journalist and believe law enforcement has turned against the citizens they protect.
And if they had screwed up do you want to limit all the LE agencies who have to face the cartels and border war becuase of one incident? That sound like the BS logic that has led to gun law after gun law by mob mentality legislators because of one idiot with a gun incidents. Instead of a reasoned approach based on the belief that we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Rember law enforcement is made up of CITIZENS and if you don't believe they have the right to F/A weapons for self defense in high risk situations obviously no CITIZEN should have that right.
I'm an NRA life member so if you're not a politically active current paid member of a gun rights organization stop now because you're the problem.
Read some facts:
At this link is the search warrant affidavit the SWAT team read.
http://azstarnet.com/online/pdf/pdf_39310ee6-8d90-11e0-af6b-001cc4c002e0.html </div></div>
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Ever thought about a PS90? If you are a cop and do alot of door kicking then alot of your engagement will be at short range...it has more than enough stopping power to do the job and the bullpop design eliminates alot of indexing issues around corners (slicing the pie) and muzzle sweeping your teamates. Just an idea.
Otherwise...start looking at PDW's...or if you just don't feel like that is enough horsepower for you then go with 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowolf....aint nobody going to be getting up after getting hit with one of those. Of course, you do have to consider that your ammo choice better be well picked bc your round is going to go through the perp and through the next couple of walls. However, target is DRT after one shot.
Mini guns, M249s and the like are generally not considered practical for LEO....its a shame.
Thanks for your service bro.
I carried an MP5SD or M4 with 11.5in barrel and aimpoint with .45acp as sidearm during my day. Never failed me.
Ever thought about a PS90? If you are a cop and do alot of door kicking then alot of your engagement will be at short range...it has more than enough stopping power to do the job and the bullpop design eliminates alot of indexing issues around corners (slicing the pie) and muzzle sweeping your teamates. Just an idea.
Otherwise...start looking at PDW's...or if you just don't feel like that is enough horsepower for you then go with 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowolf....aint nobody going to be getting up after getting hit with one of those. Of course, you do have to consider that your ammo choice better be well picked bc your round is going to go through the perp and through the next couple of walls. However, target is DRT after one shot.
Mini guns, M249s and the like are generally not considered practical for LEO....its a shame.
Thanks for your service bro.
I carried an MP5SD or M4 with 11.5in barrel and aimpoint with .45acp as sidearm during my day. Never failed me.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
I agree thanks for the avadavit. Also the OP (me) hasn't posted because I'm currently training our two new hires in RADAR/LIDAR, OC, ASP, TASER, and firearms. I am also waiting for POF to get me a demo along with a couple other companies (when I have time). If anyone from POF sees this...send me a damn gun please!
I agree thanks for the avadavit. Also the OP (me) hasn't posted because I'm currently training our two new hires in RADAR/LIDAR, OC, ASP, TASER, and firearms. I am also waiting for POF to get me a demo along with a couple other companies (when I have time). If anyone from POF sees this...send me a damn gun please!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Personally for an entry weapon i would love to have the vector kriss. i know it is a sub gun but after i shot one i fell in love with it. Its chambered in 45acp and uses standard glock 21 mags. Its small like a p90 but you dont have to worry about over penetration, and they are nice and quiet when you add a suppressor.
For 5.56 i would def go with lwrc. I know a bunch of the guys at the sdpd range, they dont allow piston ars currently for duty use but they told me out of the bunch they tested (hk, sig, pof and lwrc) Lwrc is the only one they are thinking of allowing
Personally for an entry weapon i would love to have the vector kriss. i know it is a sub gun but after i shot one i fell in love with it. Its chambered in 45acp and uses standard glock 21 mags. Its small like a p90 but you dont have to worry about over penetration, and they are nice and quiet when you add a suppressor.
For 5.56 i would def go with lwrc. I know a bunch of the guys at the sdpd range, they dont allow piston ars currently for duty use but they told me out of the bunch they tested (hk, sig, pof and lwrc) Lwrc is the only one they are thinking of allowing
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
this is the funniest thread if have read on the hide!
Just so i don't feel left out. There is nothing wrong with swat having full auto as long as the buildings they are entering are occupied by low/no income minorties, illegals, muslims or people that have been witnessed tailgaiting.
please hold the applause
next
this is the funniest thread if have read on the hide!
Just so i don't feel left out. There is nothing wrong with swat having full auto as long as the buildings they are entering are occupied by low/no income minorties, illegals, muslims or people that have been witnessed tailgaiting.
please hold the applause
next
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Ah, someone finally mentioned the KRISS Super V. If you have ever shot one you will understand quickly why it is such a game changer. You could dump a whole mag of fragible ammo on full auto in a man sized target at about 20-25 feet. Altough, most guys I know are shooting 3 shot burst or singles when they kick the door to eliminate collateral damage. They are tough to get though and even tougher to demo one.
Also, HK (if I am not mistaken) has chambered the ass kicking MP5SD 10mm and 40S&W if you want to stay traditional. Two 32 round clips of this ammo and you can stay in the fight for a while.
If their is no budget and you can get what you want I would follow the boards reccomendations and go with a POF, LWRC M6A3, or something super reliable in a 10.5-14.5 muzzle length. Stick an micro aimpoint on it in a larue mount and maybe put a surefire forend or vertical grip and most people will just give up at the sight of you walking in the door. A suppresor will help in CQB but be aware that they extend the muzzle a few inches and the trade off between reduced sound and recoil etc may not be worth the potential indexing problems in you are in a tight situation.
Oh yeah, experience tells me that you can never have enough flash bangs. When in doubt...don't use one....use 2. Just make sure they don't roll back on your position.
Good luck!
Ah, someone finally mentioned the KRISS Super V. If you have ever shot one you will understand quickly why it is such a game changer. You could dump a whole mag of fragible ammo on full auto in a man sized target at about 20-25 feet. Altough, most guys I know are shooting 3 shot burst or singles when they kick the door to eliminate collateral damage. They are tough to get though and even tougher to demo one.
Also, HK (if I am not mistaken) has chambered the ass kicking MP5SD 10mm and 40S&W if you want to stay traditional. Two 32 round clips of this ammo and you can stay in the fight for a while.
If their is no budget and you can get what you want I would follow the boards reccomendations and go with a POF, LWRC M6A3, or something super reliable in a 10.5-14.5 muzzle length. Stick an micro aimpoint on it in a larue mount and maybe put a surefire forend or vertical grip and most people will just give up at the sight of you walking in the door. A suppresor will help in CQB but be aware that they extend the muzzle a few inches and the trade off between reduced sound and recoil etc may not be worth the potential indexing problems in you are in a tight situation.
Oh yeah, experience tells me that you can never have enough flash bangs. When in doubt...don't use one....use 2. Just make sure they don't roll back on your position.
Good luck!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
I dislike the direction law enforcement in the United States has taken as much as anyone. Very little serving, very little protecting. Lots of playing, lots of spending, lots of ticket writing for petty shit that doesn't even cause a problem. That said . . .
NE Ohio where the OP is from has a pretty significant anti-government, white supremacist civilian 'militia' that has everything from SAWs to F/A M4s and military grade sniper rifles. They regularly train together on mock missions. I'd rather LE be able to stop them than have to worry about doing it myself if those hillbilly idiots ever decide to act on their impulses.
If for no other reason, LE needs F/A because it exists in the civilian world. I'll let the LE experts decide if they want to use it or not.
PS: OP from an engineering perspective a proper piston AR is the only way to go with a short barrel. Gas guns aren't reliable with short barrels by design. The piston guns are the only current offering to fix this. The nice thing about POF particularly is that neglected maintenance doesn't have the same adverse effects because of the chemistry and metallurgy they use in their manufacturing. They would get my vote if I was one of the taxpayers funding your teams upgrades.
I dislike the direction law enforcement in the United States has taken as much as anyone. Very little serving, very little protecting. Lots of playing, lots of spending, lots of ticket writing for petty shit that doesn't even cause a problem. That said . . .
NE Ohio where the OP is from has a pretty significant anti-government, white supremacist civilian 'militia' that has everything from SAWs to F/A M4s and military grade sniper rifles. They regularly train together on mock missions. I'd rather LE be able to stop them than have to worry about doing it myself if those hillbilly idiots ever decide to act on their impulses.
If for no other reason, LE needs F/A because it exists in the civilian world. I'll let the LE experts decide if they want to use it or not.
PS: OP from an engineering perspective a proper piston AR is the only way to go with a short barrel. Gas guns aren't reliable with short barrels by design. The piston guns are the only current offering to fix this. The nice thing about POF particularly is that neglected maintenance doesn't have the same adverse effects because of the chemistry and metallurgy they use in their manufacturing. They would get my vote if I was one of the taxpayers funding your teams upgrades.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
That's a great argument for anarchy and constant public revolt/rule by force.
We aren't talking about a rightfully armed and trained militia, we're talking about rednecks with lots of guns that think everyone who doesn't agree with them should die. LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia, hence why I'm perfectly comfortable with them having access to the same firearms I can buy.
I don't know where you're from, but I've seen urban combat in the streets of Detroit where its necessary to go F/A and lay down cover fire to keep a head down or shoot through a granite block building corner to persuade the person around the corner of that building to stop sticking their arm out and shooting blindly in the direction of the police and thousands of homes/businesses.
If people with the attitude of "our government sucks" spent half as much time monitoring, participating and communicating with our government on local or state levels as they do arming themselves or trying to make their own little war against them, the dummy laws we have on our books wouldn't exist and we would have a much smarter group of people elected.
That's a great argument for anarchy and constant public revolt/rule by force.
We aren't talking about a rightfully armed and trained militia, we're talking about rednecks with lots of guns that think everyone who doesn't agree with them should die. LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia, hence why I'm perfectly comfortable with them having access to the same firearms I can buy.
I don't know where you're from, but I've seen urban combat in the streets of Detroit where its necessary to go F/A and lay down cover fire to keep a head down or shoot through a granite block building corner to persuade the person around the corner of that building to stop sticking their arm out and shooting blindly in the direction of the police and thousands of homes/businesses.
If people with the attitude of "our government sucks" spent half as much time monitoring, participating and communicating with our government on local or state levels as they do arming themselves or trying to make their own little war against them, the dummy laws we have on our books wouldn't exist and we would have a much smarter group of people elected.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia,</div></div>
Not even close.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia,</div></div>
Not even close.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia,</div></div>
Not even close. </div></div>
If that's not the role LE plays in your neighborhood then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy. Stop arm chair quarterbacking and do something in the community to change it that doesn't involve vitriolic discussions about SWAT teams not needing guns. There isn't a city in the country that even wanted to create a SWAT team, they were made after mass murders took place by civilians that weren't protesting anything just trying to use force to steal what they weren't smart enough or conscientious enough to earn themselves. We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> LE is the rightfully armed and trained militia,</div></div>
Not even close. </div></div>
If that's not the role LE plays in your neighborhood then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy. Stop arm chair quarterbacking and do something in the community to change it that doesn't involve vitriolic discussions about SWAT teams not needing guns. There isn't a city in the country that even wanted to create a SWAT team, they were made after mass murders took place by civilians that weren't protesting anything just trying to use force to steal what they weren't smart enough or conscientious enough to earn themselves. We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Okay I'm new and all of my experience has been via the Army and my time spent in Iraq. From the sound of it I honestly think you should really look at this review of the PWS MK114 http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2202139#Post2202139
The author of this thread did some very extensive testing and the rifle seems to be top notch quality. The design is based off of the AK being that it is a piston operation. I think if I had to choose an AR for SWAT I would consider this one. Like everyone has said there are a lot of makers out there and the market is flooded with them. Take your time and choose carefully.
Okay I'm new and all of my experience has been via the Army and my time spent in Iraq. From the sound of it I honestly think you should really look at this review of the PWS MK114 http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2202139#Post2202139
The author of this thread did some very extensive testing and the rifle seems to be top notch quality. The design is based off of the AK being that it is a piston operation. I think if I had to choose an AR for SWAT I would consider this one. Like everyone has said there are a lot of makers out there and the market is flooded with them. Take your time and choose carefully.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we're talking about rednecks with lots of guns that think everyone who doesn't agree with them should die. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">funny, thats who founded this country.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we're talking about rednecks with lots of guns that think everyone who doesn't agree with them should die. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">funny, thats who founded this country.
</div></div>
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
funny, thats who founded this country.
"We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens"
no we dont have to because were rightfully armed citizenry that dont need national guard or any other government interference to protect ourselves under the gauranteed rights of the constitution.
"then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy."
wake up, it aint been a democracy since abe lincoln. this is a republic, and one that tends to wanna rule its common folk with weapons it dont trust us to own.
just sayin</div></div>
Here, educate yourself. The founding fathers were the most brilliant men in the world during that era. Philosophers who believed in self respect, accountability, and preservation of life above all else. http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/
As for your little edit, that jackoff Marine veteran in Arizona was a grade A piece of shit drug dealer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
funny, thats who founded this country.
"We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens"
no we dont have to because were rightfully armed citizenry that dont need national guard or any other government interference to protect ourselves under the gauranteed rights of the constitution.
"then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy."
wake up, it aint been a democracy since abe lincoln. this is a republic, and one that tends to wanna rule its common folk with weapons it dont trust us to own.
just sayin</div></div>
Here, educate yourself. The founding fathers were the most brilliant men in the world during that era. Philosophers who believed in self respect, accountability, and preservation of life above all else. http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/
As for your little edit, that jackoff Marine veteran in Arizona was a grade A piece of shit drug dealer.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Nathan, I couldn't agree with you more. I have read Darren's reports and will be adding the PWS to my list. I just got the POF P416 and will get a chance to shoot it Tuesday, weather permitting. I have a dealer bringing some cans up and hopefully some auto glass and a gel block or two if ATK helps me out. If anyone is interested in pics, let me know. If there is something specific you want a shot of and I can do it, I will.
Chris
Nathan, I couldn't agree with you more. I have read Darren's reports and will be adding the PWS to my list. I just got the POF P416 and will get a chance to shoot it Tuesday, weather permitting. I have a dealer bringing some cans up and hopefully some auto glass and a gel block or two if ATK helps me out. If anyone is interested in pics, let me know. If there is something specific you want a shot of and I can do it, I will.
Chris
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
funny, thats who founded this country.
"We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens"
no we dont have to because were rightfully armed citizenry that dont need national guard or any other government interference to protect ourselves under the gauranteed rights of the constitution.
"then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy."
wake up, it aint been a democracy since abe lincoln. this is a republic, and one that tends to wanna rule its common folk with weapons it dont trust us to own.
just sayin</div></div>
Here, educate yourself. The founding fathers were the most brilliant men in the world during that era. Philosophers who believed in self respect, accountability, and preservation of life above all else. http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/
As for your little edit, that jackoff Marine veteran in Arizona was a grade A piece of shit drug dealer. </div></div>
oh you were there, sorry my bad.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
funny, thats who founded this country.
"We shouldn't have to wait to mobilize a national guard unit every time that happens"
no we dont have to because were rightfully armed citizenry that dont need national guard or any other government interference to protect ourselves under the gauranteed rights of the constitution.
"then you aren't doing your part in exercising your rights as a citizen in a democracy."
wake up, it aint been a democracy since abe lincoln. this is a republic, and one that tends to wanna rule its common folk with weapons it dont trust us to own.
just sayin</div></div>
Here, educate yourself. The founding fathers were the most brilliant men in the world during that era. Philosophers who believed in self respect, accountability, and preservation of life above all else. http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/
As for your little edit, that jackoff Marine veteran in Arizona was a grade A piece of shit drug dealer. </div></div>
oh you were there, sorry my bad.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh you were there, sorry my bad. </div></div>
Are you one of his over-confident under-trained brethren? Where's your info on the contrary?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh you were there, sorry my bad. </div></div>
Are you one of his over-confident under-trained brethren? Where's your info on the contrary?
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AutoXer=maser </div></div>
What does that mean?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AutoXer=maser </div></div>
What does that mean?
