Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

[BCP]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">stoeger makes a real nice semi auto 12 gauge tactical that can have skull shapes custom added and alumahyded a nice skull camo finish for very reasonable expenditure and i think nary a police department ought be without one in there cruisers. dont even need to be swat. </div></div>

LOL yeah with Mother-of-Pearl donut inlays on the action...

 

[BCP]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">POF finally came through with a P416 11.5" f/a. The testing begins on Tuesday, need auto glass, ballistic gel, and AMMO! </div></div>

It's Tuesday, how did it work? I've shot their 14.5 and 16 and they are very nice...

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Shot great with a Gemtech Trek Ti can as as as a G5 and a YHM Phantom. I was very impressed with it. I didnt get anyone from ATK yet but it took me 3 months to get this gun it may take them 3 months to get it back! Accuracy was very very good at 25yds and in. Only shot about 300 rds and unfortunately when others learned what I was doing I was forced to share. Spoke with DMack and hope to also have a PWS to check out soon. I need ballistic Gel and auto windshields which will be coming soon. Semi auto was smooth has a surprisingly nice trigger. Muzzle climb was only noticeable on f/a but 5-6 rds in a 3" circle were easy. Had to add a verticle grip due to heat from the forearm and swapped out a gas buster charging handle which worked wonders. Used an EoTech for the sight system and the Ti can was the best of the 3. I'll add more to this or if anyone has any specific questions let me know. No donuts were used/harmed for BCP's benifit.

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

BL, it was a pleasure speaking with you today. As stated, any time, any place... just call. Best of luck in your search... you are in a unique position to be able to have input on which platform you choose. Take your time, and make an informed decision.

I look forward to more conversation with you, and hopefully getting you and your team down to train with us... or me and my guys up to you.

As promised, email will be sent tomorrow. Be safe out there Brother.

1*

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Spoke with ATK today the EARLIEST we can do testing is September 6th.This will give me time to get some more stuff. I will be doing more shooting between now and then.

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

BL... I'm raising this back from the dead... any updates???

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

DMack, you know there are I just haven't had time to do it. Short version PWS wins. Long version might come by this Monday lol. Happy? LOL

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Just curious Brother... Can't wait to hear the details... That MK112 is a sexy rifle!

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious Brother... Can't wait to hear the details... That MK112 is a sexy rifle!</div></div>

Too many people are attracted to the "sexy" rifles instead of systems that have been combat tested and proven time and time again.

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I can assure you... I understand this more than most.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too many people are attracted to the "sexy" rifles instead of systems that have been combat tested and proven time and time again. </div></div>

Combat tested systems... proven in battle... I got that. However, if we were so resistant to new ideas and innovation, we would all still be firing the old cap and ball musket. Was it not proven in battle time and time again? Or the Broad Sword and Bow and Arrow... I'd be willing to wager that more people were killed in history with these weapons, than a Direct Impingement AR.

When I first started testing the PWS MK series rifles, I was skeptical at best. Piston gun? Who needed them. I have carried a DI rifle for over 25 years of honorable service to this nation, and it has never let me down. Why change it?

Until I started using it. The system in the PWS rifles is solid. It's not snake oil, and frankly, it works. It works time and time again, without failure. All things being equal, barrel length, caliber, trigger... I want a rifle that I know will go bang, every time I pull the trigger. I don't care how the bolt is cycled.

My comment about the rifle being "sexy" was understood by the OP. He and I have spoken on the telephone multiple times... and I applaud him for doing his research. I believe he chose a solid platform that will serve him and those that he protects very well...

I know I shoot the SNOT out of my PWS rifles. They perform.

Cheers!

DMack

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

My thinking is this: Most PDs do not have the funding or resources to conduct a proper testing and evaluation of a weapon system. Those in charge of selecting a weapon system owe it to their officers to equip them with the absolute most dependable weapons.

Without being able to evaluate for themselves through time consuming torture tests which is the most reliable, a PD should go with a system/ brand that has already been thoroughly tested, evaluated, and proven.

I am not a Colt fan by any means and do not own any colt products. My issued Colt M4 however, has only had one major malfunction in the last 6 1/2 years and that was due to a piece of a primer getting under the trigger spring.

There are plenty of civilian firearms that perform and function very well but they are not necessarily subject to the inspections and quality controls that a service rifle/ carbine is.

I think the OP owes it to his fellow officers to not be pursuing the latest and greatest "sexy" 3 gun fad, but rather a combat proven service weapon.

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Brother... go grab yourself a PWS MK1 series rifle, and shoot the thing until you make it fail...

I've put over 15,000 DOCUMENTED rounds through my MK114 at work, legitimately... and the thing runs clean, cool and accurately. The only failure I have had with it, is at round count 1245 ish, I had a broken extractor claw. That can happen to any rifle.

I believe Blue Line chose well. The MK112 will not let him down. I also believe that PWS will not let him down with customer service.

I totally understand your logic, and I agree with you. I was not trying to form a debate... however, I also know many of the details that the OP was working under, and why his decision led him to the path that he chose.

My job allows me to shoot more in one month, than most people do all year. If there is a weakness in the PWS rifles, I will find it. So far, I have not found it yet...

Cheer!

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My job allows me to shoot more in one month, than most people do all year. If there is a weakness in the PWS rifles, I will find it. So far, I have not found it yet...

Cheer!</div></div>

As does mine. I am not debating the fact that you may have a great weapon their or not. What I am pointing out is that some of the smaller companies' quality control would not be on par with that of a larger company with government contracts where every X number of rifles is pulled and inspected.

Does this guarantee that a large service rifle manufacturer will be superior to that of a smaller companies? No. I But I do believe that every company is prone to letting something slip out the door that is jacked up; big or small.

Me personally, I would have gone with the company that has the most experience in producing service rifles/ carbines for LE and military use.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

When the Anchorage Police Dept first started their swat (we called them CRT) teams I was solected to do the initial rifle training.

In discussing reliability. My ideal was I dont care how many rounds a rifle fire without fail, I cared how it fired the first couple magazines.

In reality, how many "entry teams" fires 1000 + rounds upon entry.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In reality, how many "entry teams" fires 1000 + rounds upon entry.

</div></div>

Well hopefully they get to fire a few thousand a year at least in training. It takes a lot of trigger time to become proficient in close quarters marksmanship.

It takes thousands of rounds and many hours of training to be able to get off the couple shots that may be needed in a live operation. Shots that must be performed in a split second, under stress, with innocent civilians and fellow team members in very close proximity of your target.

Unfortunately, many PDs' SWAT teams are not able to achieve the desired level of proficiency.

Anyways teams that are able to fire the needed amount of ammo need to have pretty durable weapons.

 

[DMack]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Ok... let me add this. I agree with you Kraig. It's the first round that I want to go off... period. Well, in the case of the .223 / 5.56 I want the first five to function.

Now, I get this. I am a gun guy. I maintain my weapons. I lube them properly... I care for them, I shoot them. You do too. But, it's my experience... that MOST Officers, Patrol, Detectives, SRO's... are NOT gun guys. They really don't care.

So, they get their department issued AR-15, and are required to shoot their annual qual course, and then it goes into their trunk. That Officer may not touch that rifle again, outside of weapons inspections... until the next time they qualify at the range.

Here in Florida, most agencies carry their rifles in their cars the same way. It's HOT down here. If you don't maintain and lube your DI gun properly, what happens to that lube over a year, in heat? Yes... it dries up.

I can tell you this, out of all of the teams that come through and trains with us, the largest failure of DI weapons I see, is failure to lube it properly. They run too dry, and the weapon stops.

This is fact. I am not making this up.

With the PWS rifle, I have done this... I have sprayed it down, and removed all forms of oil, grease, etc... and the rifle runs. I've purposely used it in class after class, to show this. Is it the coating they use? Is it the operating system? Who knows... but for the average Officer, that does not maintain the weapon, it lends credence.

I agree that I want the first five rounds to deliver on target... but, I also don't want my confidence to be shaken, if it stops after fifty rounds. If I see failure on the range, and then have to depend on that rifle in service... it will shake my confidence.

Again, not trying to debate here. I'm not measuring packages either. I do have a bit of time behind these guns, and I find that they work and work well.

If it's not your cup of tea, drink from another cup. I do believe that the OP chose well. Time will tell... I'm sure he will be along shortly and add to the discussion.

All I can speak from, is my own experience. Not what I read on the net...

Cheers all... be safe out there.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

just hitem in the face with gas cannisters thats how oakland rolls. just sayin

 

[adam1122]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

We carried MP5SD's for years and then finally switched. Every dept. has their own budget and blief system as to what is best to arm their swat teams with. My own expoerience was that full auto was never set even for the guy first in the door....at most he had his weapon on burst mode and mags loaded with ammo that would not overpenetrate (hornady tap stuff).

Conisder a hk416 with an 11.5 upper...if that,s too expensive then anything on a state contract should work fine. PODm LWRC 11.5, LMT, all make good rigs. Just stick with quality and you wont have any problems.

Quick question for you - does your dept want everyone on the stack to have their weapons set to full auto when they make entry to the house? Surely they must also want a burst and/or single shot selector?

 

[gyz77]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I carry a hybrid POF lower 10.5" LWRC with AAC M4-2000! It's the only way to go. SBR 5.56! 308 is too much but would be nice as I work an area of 21000 Sq miles!!! Gotta love the Great State of TEXAS!!!!!

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

OK, here is the real update. After getting quote from a lot of companies and weighing the prices of each SBR and features that they brought to the table I decided to evaluate the POF416 11.5" and the PWS Mk112 12.5". This is not to say that the other companies did not make outstanding firearms or that my budget had a hard cap on it, just that it's not MY money. I owe it to the residents to be as smart as I can be with the money they have given us.

First day on the range with both firearms together and the suppressor of choice (Gemtech Trek Ti) was interesting. The POF, which comes with no BUIS fired flawlessly. Both suppressed and unsuppressed in S/A and F/A. The groups were very good with very little shift with the suppressor. I would like to add that a gasbuster charging handle on a short stroke piston might be something that a manufacturer would like to think about including (not a criticism as much as a suggestion). I liked the flash hider nut they use vs a crush washer, nice touch. I was stunned to see that there was a lot of play between the upper and lower receiver, so much so that they shipped it with a wedge. Surprise find of the day, the P416 and Pmags are not friends. The Pmag had to be wedged in the mag well with a lot of force and obviously would not drop free for mag changes. Accuracy was very good, I like the free floating barrel. I did not shoot groups at distance with this off a bench because its a "work" gun not a bench or target gun. The NP3 coating is very nice and according to Phoenix PD makes the gun hold up very well. They have some with 50K rounds though them. The adjustable gas block was nice and functioned as advertised.

PWS, comes with Magpul BUIS Gen II and a gasbuster charging handle, nice! fit and finish were excellent, no play in the upper receiver and no wedge shipped/needed. Crush washer on the flash hider, eh. On to function uUh, well things did not go so well on this day for the PWS. Unsuppressed the gun HATED Pmags. They would drop free and insert with no issue. The problem, the gun would not function. You name it, it happened. FTF, FTE, double feed, etc. Switched to a GI mag and life was great. Shoots/cycles smooth, the recoil strangely felt more mild than the POF. Very controllable in both SA/FA. Nice tight groups were easily achieved and it was comfortable to shoot. Suppressor time...PWS HATES ME! Again all the problems expeirenced with e Pmags come back with the GI mag.No adjustable gas block to make me think I have been doing something stupid. I cleaned the gun and started over, same freakin result.

One call to Todd at PWS and 24 hours later I have a new upper. So, we start over. Gun loves Pmags, C-products $5.00 mags, GI mags, you name it, it took it. Suppressed, piece of cake. Everything was smooth and it weighed in 1 lb lighter than the POF (I'm sure it's POF's huge rail on the front). Accuracy was very good and very little shift with the suppressor.

Cleaning-The short stroke POF after 700+ rounds was a mess, but cleaned up pretty easily. The PWS, also 700+ rounds with the long stroke system, I was stunned how clean the gun was, even with the suppressor. We shot the snot out of these guns and I would not have a problem using either one.

At the end of the day it was a unanimous decision to choose the PWS. It all came down to the way it shot and the way it feels in your hand. DMack must have said it to mee 100x, "you just have to shoot it." I will post some pics of the two side by side so you can see the profiles. I wish I could have done a better job explaining everything and if anyone has any questions I'll be happy to share with you my experiences with either weapon. I'm no expert, I just know what I like.

PS we shot Federal, Winchester, Remington, Wolf, and some really really bad crap through these. GB charging handle on the POF was taken from another SBR.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

 

[hengehold]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Try Fulton armory or Colt

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palma shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try Fulton armory or Colt</div></div>
I think your a bit late. Looks like a decision was made.

OP, Hope the rest of your PWSs don't have the smae problems your first one did.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I am waiting to find out what exactly was wrong with that one. Todd from PWS was outstanding to deal with and that's why we feel confident that the rest will be fine. To be fair POF had its own issues they were just not related to the function of the firearm. "I can't find your paperwork, oh wait I have it, no I don't, here it is." "Can you send it again" for the third time ETC. I tried to keep everything in this post related to the test. Both are really great weapons and I wanted to balance performance and cost.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

so we all know leo's are horrible shots anyway so why not just get an ak already and get on with it?

 

[decider]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

stop hating on leo dicaprio... i appreciate his artistic interpretation of swashbuckling aboard a condemned vessel...

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

mar, If you want to come to Ohio and shoot with me, just let me know.
Chris

 

[sgtusmc_nc]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

our team has several colt commandos the shorty 11ish inch barrel with eotechs, everyone else runs straight 16inch colts. shoot me a message there is a federal agency that can outfit leo's with everything from APC's to fire arms for free. not sure about the wait times but we have several colts from them as well as several original m14's with the auto selector ( not sure why ) but we do.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

our team has several mall commandos sgtusmc...so just sayin

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AutoXer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you one of his over-confident under-trained brethren? Where's your info on the contrary? </div></div>

Especially on this day, I'd like to offer you a hearty "Go fuck yourself" on behalf of the United States Marine Corps.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I should add, thanks to desertfox who brought to my attention, that the POF I tested had lower manufactured in 2006. That being said I don't think Pmags were made back then which may explain why they did not feed well. This thought does not change my overall opinion that the PWS just feels better when you shoot it. I will not go back and address Constitutional debates or SA/FA debates. For that you may feel free to start your own thread.
Chris

 

[kujo929]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I put out the bids and built the specs we wanted when my team switched from MP5's. I pushed hard for gas piston but in the long run price won out. We went with RRA 10.5" that had all of my requested specs. We've been running them for at least 3 years with no problems. RRA offers a great agency price.

I believe it was Baltimore Swat that I spoke to who was using the LWRC SBR's at that time and their LT couldn't say enough good things about them.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

get twin desert eagles instead

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

marduk, ya just can't stay away can ya? LOL

 

[WARDOG]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Entry Weapon, short range, Why go with a 223? Shoot through is a real possibility, have you considered an MP5 in 40 S&W? Training requirement would be much less for both the operators and those that maintain the weapons (if not done by members). If you are using 40S&W as you duty rounds, you have a commonality. The FBI's 10mm MP's are the same size, wt. etc as the 40's. H&K stuff works, don't need to run off to some "custom" maker to get quality or parts, your 9's have lasted 15 years-stick with quality, quality that will be here 15 years from now. </div></div>
Paw- I am in complete agreement with you, having been there done that.
Too many Administrative leaders think they know what is the best when they are not at the front of the line.

IF you have to go with the 5.56,suppressed, make sure they are full time, suppressed, or not. Short barreled 5.56's get finicky when trying to run with or without suppressors. You have to dial-in the gas to make them run suppressed reliably. A team member should be able to pick up the weapon on a moments notice to make an entry without having the doubt that someone before him ran it without the can and readjusting the gas system, then put the can back on without test firing it. FULL-TIME suppressed with a tamper evident seal over the gas adjustment.
I just can't stress THAT ENOUGH!

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WARDOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Entry Weapon, short range, Why go with a 223? Shoot through is a real possibility, have you considered an MP5 in 40 S&W? Training requirement would be much less for both the operators and those that maintain the weapons (if not done by members). If you are using 40S&W as you duty rounds, you have a commonality. The FBI's 10mm MP's are the same size, wt. etc as the 40's. H&K stuff works, don't need to run off to some "custom" maker to get quality or parts, your 9's have lasted 15 years-stick with quality, quality that will be here 15 years from now. </div></div>
Paw- I am in complete agreement with you, having been there done that.
Too many Administrative leaders think they know what is the best when they are not at the front of the line.

IF you have to go with the 5.56,suppressed, make sure they are full time, suppressed, or not. Short barreled 5.56's get finicky when trying to run with or without suppressors. You have to dial-in the gas to make them run suppressed reliably. A team member should be able to pick up the weapon on a moments notice to make an entry without having the doubt that someone before him ran it without the can and readjusting the gas system, then put the can back on without test firing it. FULL-TIME suppressed with a tamper evident seal over the gas adjustment.
I just can't stress THAT ENOUGH! </div></div>

Picked the PWS Mk112 its a long stroke piston. Almost Cop proof lol. No gas to dial.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

maybe light saber for the win?

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

KRISS!!! FA/SBR/Supressed .45ACP!! Need I say more??

 

[awonder]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Our department uses BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) 11.5 uppers and they work great.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

From what I hear a chainsaw is the new "elite entry tool"

 

[awonder]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

For the Feds maybe!

 

[invaderfish]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I have a POF and I love the idea of it. I just can't get the reality of it to equal the idea.

I bought it before the new foreend and it is impossible for me to grab the rail with my thumb over the top...rail is huge and I can't justify almost $400 to find out if the new FF tube will be better.

I can't make it lighter.

Otherwise it is my favorite AR. It has a ton of elements that I think are ideal for a patrol rifle:

1: minimal uncoated steel. For us, long guns go in the trunk and the humidity in Virginia can get bad.

2. I shoot my other rifles more because of the grip thing, but I have not been able to induce a malfunction as hard as I try when I do use the POF. Relentless reliability has been true with mine. I am NOT assigned to SWAT (none in our department) but I have been to basic and advanced SWAT schools and watched several DI guns go down. They came back up with a couple of drops of oil or re-tightening unstaked items. No issues for the POF at all.

3. Easy to clean and more importantly in my department would be the ability to run when no one cleans or services them at all.

4. I like a bolt release for fast reload reasons, not that they are likely to see a reload before a crisis situation has been resolved.

My department is talking about going with patrol rifles as opposed to our SBS...yes, a police department where the only long gun is a 14 inch barreled 870...you know, for when you want to shoot EVERYTHING in front of you at the same time. For a rifle I would like to see something along nickel boron bolt/carrier and an FN chromed barrel (Noveske, BCM, Centurion, Spike's, or PSA). They use machine gun steel and have a double thickness chrome. If you only run everyone through a 200 round initial course and then 50 round qualifier twice a year...well, 300 x 80 officers adds up on barrel and parts lifespan. If you have a dedicated team, then training will eat up parts just on normal wear and tear.

I am interested to see what you end up with and why.

Oh, and kujo929, I don't know how your RRA's were, but nothing was staked on mine. Took care of that day one.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

maybe get ye an ole del-ton 11.5 upper with pinned on 5.5 flash hider for muzzle strokin them badguys in whatnot and slap they ther ontop of a blackdawn lower with shorty entry stock yall be all swatty and stuff without brakin yer bank.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Only if I can stick a light saber on the railed forearm for CQB stuff. Mar, stop shooting at your RO's on the range. Your next step is being a freeway sniper! Can ya quit trolling on this thread please? LOL

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Blueline,

How are those PWS Mk112s working out?

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

LOVE them. Waiting for the OK to sign the paperwork for suppressors. New year, new budget.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Glad to hear that. I love the fact that you have a progressive administration that see the benefits of such a weapon system.

Stay safe.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

thanks much. My Boss was smart enough to realize that the end user usually knows more than the administrator in a matter like this.
Be safe,
Chris

 

[adam1122]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

MP5SD inn10mm......you will have the needed single, burst and full auto selection. FBI HRT uses it so it can't be considered total shit.

Or, a minigun mounted on the APC and justbhose the whole house down.....Jk.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

yes because police need supressors...wow that is "progressive" now isnt it.