Loss of Zero. Please Help!

[Ohioguy47]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now and could use some guidance.

I'm running a bergara rifle with a gen 2 Pst and Nightforce rings. The rifle holds zero for the duration of every range trip, but when I head back to the range to confirm zero on paper, everytime the zero has shifted about 1 to 2 inches. I always confirm everything is torqued to spec. I also am using the same handloads as always.

It is a serious pain wasting ammo to re-zero every range trip and I'm at a loss as to what can cause this. I would greatly appreciate any guidance you can give to solve the problem.

I've searched for other threads on the topic without success. If you can forward me to a forum which covers this in great detail, it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Mbaysinger89]

At what distance, always horizontal or also vertical, what mounts are you using, outdoor range Im assuming, how do you transport the rifle? Need alot more info.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Lots more details needed.

And, stupid question I know, but you do realize atmospheric conditions impact bullet flight, right? Shoot on a hot day, go back on a cold day, change in zero...

 

[Fig]

When you say "loss of zero", do you mean like off the paper and inches, or a 1/4 or 1/2 moa off? There are a brazillion things that effect accuracy, and it will be a combination of them.

I re-zero my rifle before every deer season and have gone years and years without touching the scope. I re-zero my comp sticks before every competition, and it's usually a click or two off.

 

[wpeach1912]

I have had a similar problem in the past, and the thing I narrowed it down to was my base not mating flush to my action. I would check that and check how well your rings are contacting your scope.

 

[Ohioguy47]

I always zero at 100m. Its is usually left and high, but not always. Nightforce rail with nightforce extreme duty rings. I transport the rifle in a heavily padded drag bag. I make sure not to ever impact the scope when handling it.

 

[Holliday]

This has been happening to my hunting rifle. .1 mil here or there. I am sure it is me. I have been cleaning more.

 

[WB300]

Just throwing this out there in addition to above..... but check that the shooter doesn't need re-zeroing. You could be inconsistent from visit to visit,, but consistent during each visit.. Does this happen with other rifles?

Not trying to question your shooting.... just trying to eliminate one variable.

 

[CavReconScout]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/online-training-lesson-refine-your-zeroes.7085299/

 

[Old Man with Gun]

If you clean your rifle and shoot from a cold bore it can be a little different than once everything is warm and fouled. Just checking?

 

[Nathantc]

had a cz 455 do that to me, never did figure it out. Tried everything. Sold the rifle. First shot of the day was always way the hell off. Some times as many as 5-10 shots were needed to return to zero. Could let the rifle sit for hours after the fact and it would still be zeroed. Let it sit overnight, and god only knows where the first round would go.

I know its not apples to apples but lots of suggestions were given here where i posted about it. Maybe one of them would help ya

CZ455 varmint issue i cannot solve

ok its 22lr, target at 65 yards. my issue is this. after i let the rifle sit overnight (without cleaning) it will shoot more than a foot off usually low, the second round will be off to the right and low, the third might be on target or a lil off. either way after 3-5 rounds its a tack driver...

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[Ohioguy47]

Thanks for the help guys. I dont believe I'm changing my body position from trip to trip. Always am shooting outside. It's usually shifts between .3 and .5 mils at 100. I have a good understanding of atmospheric effects on ballistics, but you wouldnt expect such a significant change. The weather has been similar each time. I dont have this issue with my other rifles. I've also put the scope in a tracking vice, and it returns to the same point no matter how much I crank the turrets. This also excludes fouling shots after cleaning.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Is the POI moving further and further in one direction, moving around or moving back and forth?

 

[6.5SH]

Sounding like inconsistent bench or bag technique to me. How are you confirming your zero Vs the rest of your range time (prone, bench, rest, bipod etc.)

 

[Mbaysinger89]

Do you remove the BA from stock or chassis when you clean? What support are you using? What stock?

 

[spife7980]

Is the POI moving further and further in one direction, moving around or moving back and forth?

First good question

Of op can’t answer that then the op needs to pay more attention.

 

[Ohioguy47]

I'm shooting prone with a bipod and rear bag. Always on a concrete slab. I dont remove the BA from the chassis when cleaning. It's not moving farther away, but just consistently off about 1-2 inches the last several trips. One time it was just high, 2 times it was high left, and one time it was just left. I've checked the rail and it sits flush. I also loctite the rail on and torqued to spec. Perhaps I'm just being inconsistent and don't know it. I dont have this issue with my m2010 or m110 on range days.

 

[Ohioguy47]

Using a bergara bmp chassis

 

[Tokay444]

Try a different scope.

 

[Jscb1b]

And a different shooter.

 

[Nathantc]

sounds crazy but try this. Go fire just 1, 3 shot group. Keep that paper. go home ADJUST NOTHING, CLEAN NOTHING. Come back the next day or so, when ever really as long as more than a day has passed. Fire 1, 3 shot group.. If you do this, and both groups are in the same area vs poa. I suspect barrel issue. Maybe the first few rounds or so are having a different point of impact than the rest of your range trip. every time. I've had this happen in the past. for me it took waiting overnight for the problem to come back. Even waiting 5-6 hours was not enough. Damn thing had some kind of voodoo going on. Maybe the barrel had a stress point idk. Give it a shot. See if you find the same pattern i did. I went threw optics, stocks, mounts, rings, ammo, brain pain, yeah.

 

[308pirate]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now

99.9% sure that the problem is you and not your rifle. Your inconsistent and incorrect prone position, to be specific.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Let's talk parallax adjustment, just to be sure.

If your scope is not adjusted correctly, you have to have your eye consistently placed behind the scope because moving your eye will move the reticle on the target, even if the rifle is stationary.

Bag the rifle and without touching it, move your eye up, down and side to side. Adjust until the reticle is stationary on the target.

If you are consistent in position it doesn't matter, but if not it can easily throw you by the amounts mentioned.

If shooting for precision behind something with a fixed focus, it is critical to put as much effort into centering the reticle in the scope as centering the reticle on the target.

 

[Nathantc]

Let's talk parallax adjustment, just to be sure.

If your scope is not adjusted correctly, you have to have your eye consistently placed behind the scope because moving your eye will move the reticle on the target, even if the rifle is stationary.

Bag the rifle and without touching it, move your eye up, down and side to side. Adjust until the reticle is stationary on the target.

If you are consistent in position it doesn't matter, but if not it can easily throw you by the amounts mentioned.

If shooting for precision behind something with a fixed focus, it is critical to put as much effort into centering the reticle in the scope as centering the reticle on the target.

ill add to this. Take the rifle outside on a clear day. set the scope to max magnification, set parallax to highest setting. Look threw the scoop at the clear blue sky. Adjust the eye focus on the scope (adjustment nearest your eye) until the reticle is crystal clear. Look away for a few seconds, then quickly shoulder the rifle looking at the clear blue sky again, if the reticle is still crystal clear you got it, if not keep doing adjustments until the reticle is clear naturally. Doing this will help a LOT when it comes to parallax. If your scope is not set to YOUR eye, your eye will naturally try and correct focus giving you false parallax focus points. This is much more noticeable with first focal plane scopes for some reason.

EDIT
if your scope has range numbers on the parallax, IGNORE THEM. They very very seldomly are ever correct.

 

[WB300]

As above, I'd check that the parallax is set correctly. And pay attention to how much pressure your head is putting on the stock.

Do some dry fire and see which direction your sight picture moves. Or, have another (good) shooter put a few on paper.

 

[TreyMeTrey]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now and could use some guidance.

I'm running a bergara rifle with a gen 2 Pst and Nightforce rings. The rifle holds zero for the duration of every range trip, but when I head back to the range to confirm zero on paper, everytime the zero has shifted about 1 to 2 inches. I always confirm everything is torqued to spec. I also am using the same handloads as always.

It is a serious pain wasting ammo to re-zero every range trip and I'm at a loss as to what can cause this. I would greatly appreciate any guidance you can give to solve the problem.

I've searched for other threads on the topic without success. If you can forward me to a forum which covers this in great detail, it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

where are you storing you ammo and are you using temperature. stable powder?

 

[rottenruger]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now and could use some guidance.

I'm running a bergara rifle with a gen 2 Pst and Nightforce rings. The rifle holds zero for the duration of every range trip, but when I head back to the range to confirm zero on paper, everytime the zero has shifted about 1 to 2 inches. I always confirm everything is torqued to spec. I also am using the same handloads as always.

It is a serious pain wasting ammo to re-zero every range trip and I'm at a loss as to what can cause this. I would greatly appreciate any guidance you can give to solve the problem.

I've searched for other threads on the topic without success. If you can forward me to a forum which covers this in great detail, it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

I'm no expert thought I'd like to be........but have you considered cold barrel vs. fouled barrel?

 

[Sureshot300norma]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now and could use some guidance.

I'm running a bergara rifle with a gen 2 Pst and Nightforce rings. The rifle holds zero for the duration of every range trip, but when I head back to the range to confirm zero on paper, everytime the zero has shifted about 1 to 2 inches. I always confirm everything is torqued to spec. I also am using the same handloads as always.

It is a serious pain wasting ammo to re-zero every range trip and I'm at a loss as to what can cause this. I would greatly appreciate any guidance you can give to solve the problem.

I've searched for other threads on the topic without success. If you can forward me to a forum which covers this in great detail, it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

I have seen this issue in quite a few different rifles. This issue has been reported from dozens of people shooting your rifle. It is a metallurgy issue of the barrel's steel. When heated up and cooled down the barrel is settling different each time. I personally had a Browning Abolt with this issue. Hope this helps.

 

[swamper2]

Do you have a bubble on your scope to check rifle cant

 

[hafejd30]

Hello everyone! I've been into LR shooting for just about a year now and could use some guidance.

I'm running a bergara rifle with a gen 2 Pst and Nightforce rings. The rifle holds zero for the duration of every range trip, but when I head back to the range to confirm zero on paper, everytime the zero has shifted about 1 to 2 inches. I always confirm everything is torqued to spec. I also am using the same handloads as always.

It is a serious pain wasting ammo to re-zero every range trip and I'm at a loss as to what can cause this. I would greatly appreciate any guidance you can give to solve the problem.

I've searched for other threads on the topic without success. If you can forward me to a forum which covers this in great detail, it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

Check screw torque. Action and scope base/ring etc

After that try a new (known reliable) optic

 

[Eustice]

“I always confirm everything is torqued to spec.”

Do you mean you set the torque wrench and check everything every time? If you’re doing that then you may be over-torquing your rings and ring caps. I would suspect you’re shifting the scope in the rings slightly if you’re constantly checking torque.

 

[Tokay444]

That would require removing the scope to “check” the base.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

gen 2 Pst

In the absence of verifying with another shooter and being forced to assume the OP is consistent I'll blame Vortex as usual. If you dryfire, does the reticle move and if it does is it always in the same direction? Other than a bad scope, and being told nothing is loose the only other thing to me is cold shooter.

 

[1moaoff]

Muzzle break or can? Just to rule them out.

 

[adubeau]

Maybe he's just cross-eyed?

 

[Ohioguy47]

I make sure to confirm the the scope rings and action screws are torqued to spec. This is what I've always been instructed to do through military work. I dont remove the scope to confirm base, but it was properly loctited when mounted.

I also make sure that the parallax is correctly set so the reticle stays in place depending on location of my eye.

I'm using temp stable h4350. Brass and bullets are same lot.

I know it's not the optic after having put it in a tracking vice to test.

I don't see a difference between cold bore impact and impact after a few shots. There is a slight difference between a clean bore shot, but I have always sent a fouler first after cleaning. I only clean every 300 rounds.

I do however have a serious stringing issue upwards after 8 shots or so in a 2-3 minute period when the barrel gets hot. I'm talking a half mil at 1000 yards. When I give it a few minutes to cool it gets back on target. This leads me to believe there is a considerable stress relieving issue. I know this isnt all that uncommon with production rifles and havent considered this bc it's not Hot when confirming zero. Perhaps this is somehow affecting loss of zero?

Again, I greatly appreciate all of the help!

 

[Nathantc]

.

I know it's not the optic after having put it in a tracking vice to test.

i can confirm that optics can BOTH track perfectly and NOT hold zero. Had a Leupold do that to me, would track like it should, but on anything larger than a .223 it would randomly shift zero. Some times with each shot, some times would hold zero for 50 rounds or so of .308 and then shift. Each time it shifted it would hold that zero, until the next shift. It always tracked well though. Leupold replaced the scope. Then i sold off the replacement

 

[diverdon]

Every time I've had that happen it's been an internal scope mechanism problem.

 

[Ohioguy47]

Oh yeah, I also run a bubble level and ensure it is level. I'm running a muzzle brake. Ammo is kept in shade.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe I'm cross eyed

Maybe either my fat wrench or fix-it-sticks aren't consistent and that's causing the issue. I can try leaving the screws alone next time.

 

[Nathantc]

Oh yeah, I also run a bubble level and ensure it is level. I'm running a muzzle brake. Ammo is kept in shade.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe I'm cross eyed

Maybe either my fat wrench or fix-it-sticks aren't consistent and that's causing the issue. I can try leaving the screws alone next time.

wait, you are messing with the action and optic mounting screws between range sessions? Yeah 9/10 i'd wager that is your issue right there. I thought you meant you torqued and locktighted everything at the initial instal, NOT that you were doing so after each shoot.

 

[Ohioguy47]

wait, you are messing with the action and optic mounting screws between range sessions? Yeah 9/10 i'd wager that is your issue right there. I thought you meant you torqued and locktighted everything at the initial instal, NOT that you were doing so after each shoot.

Yeah. The guys in my sniper section taught me to always confirm torque of the action screws and ring screws at the beginning of each range day. They probably are teaching me the wrong shit. I set to the right settings and go until it clicks. the torque wrench never moves the screws though as they have yet to come at all loose. Appreciate it!

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I know it's not the optic

IME, there's two kinds of Vortex owners. Those that have Razors, and those that will use that warranty. It's just a question of when. I would try another scope.

 

[Holliday]

Yeah. The guys in my sniper section taught me to always confirm torque of the action screws and ring screws at the beginning of each range day. They probably are teaching me the wrong shit. I set to the right settings and go until it clicks. the torque wrench never moves the screws though as they have yet to come at all loose. Appreciate it!

So you are checking, not correcting or changing? No problem and reasonable. If screws move you can expect your zero to move. Witness marks can help avoid checking all the time.

 

[Holliday]

IME, there's two kinds of Vortex owners. Those that have Razors, and those that will use that warranty. It's just a question of when. I would try another scope.

I have to tell you I am starting to wonder if this is just hyperbole and the proverbial “plural of anecdote”. Worst yet is this a product of a game of “telephone” or is there hard data on this.

A couple of things to consider:

• Vortex sells a ton of scopes. I am wondering if they actually sell the most scopes?
• Vortex sells scopes for most every budget. Which means a lot of folks who probably can’t shoot
• Vortexs “VIP warranty” means no questions asks you can send it back for a look-see.

Funny, a couple of years in just starting my relationship with Vortex I posted a highly critical thread here and was rightfully eviscerated. Since that time I have owned a couple of their scopes and have found it to be one of my best customer to business relationships I have ever had.

I did have trouble on the range one day. Groups and zero were opened up and moving around. I called just to see if there were some things, other than the basics, or torquing etc. that I could check. They immediately INSISTED on sending an overnight label to check the scope out.

A few days later, I received the scope back with data sheets and targets detailing what and how it was checked out. The scope was fine. Turned out after approximately 5000 mostly “hot” rounds my .308 barrel had burned out. I really should have pursued that first.

Not only do I find Vortex products to fit my needs at a price-point us “not rich” folks can afford but there is the culture of the company. Have you ever spoken to them? They are some of the happiest, most content employees I have run into. They don’t just go above and beyond for their customers, by all accounts they do for their employees too.

Vortex is a staunch supporter of 2A and hunting. They also strongly support competitions and matches. There is no question that Vortex has raised the customer service bar substantially, for the industry as a whole.......

 

[Nathantc]

I have to tell you I am starting to wonder if this is just hyperbole and the proverbial “plural of anecdote”. Worst yet is this a product of a game of “telephone” or is there hard data on this.

A couple of things to comsider:

• Vortex sells a ton of scopes. I am wondering if they actually sell the most scopes?
• Vortex sell scopes for most every budget. Which means a lot of folks who probably can’t shoot
• Vortexs “VIP warranty” means no questions asks you can send it back for a look-see.

Funny, a couple of years in just starting my relationship with Vortex I posted a highly critical thread here and was rightfully eviscerated. Since that time I have owned a couple of their scopes and have found it to be one of my best customer to business relationships I have ever had.

I did have trouble on the range one day. Groups and zero were opened up and moving around. I called just to see if there where some things, other than the basics or torquing etc. that I could check. They immediately INSISTED on sending an over night label to check the scope out.

A few days later I received the scope back with data sheets and targets detailing what and how it was check out. The scope was fine. Turned out after approximately 5000 mostly “hot” rounds my .308 barrel had burned out. I really should have pursued that first.

Not only do I find Vortex products to fit my needs at a price us “not rich” folks can afford but there is the culture of the company. Have you ever spoken to them? They are some of the happiest, most content employees I have run into. They don’t just go above and beyond for their customers, by by all accounts they do for their employees too.

Vortex is a staunch supporter of 2A and hunting. They also strongly support competition and matches. There is no question that Vortex has raised the customer service bar substantially, for the industry as a whole.......

not going to lie, after hearing so many terrible things AFTER buying my new Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56, reading that makes me feel a little better. All i seen was glowing reviews on THIS scope, after tax and all locally was just shy of $750. To me that is NOT a cheap scope. Then after the fact i have seen a LOT of hate post about vortex, even the razors. So idk really. So far its been good, but with only 30 rounds of 300 PRC, that is not exactly a test of the quality. 5000 rounds of 308 is a pretty good test for any scope really. Or at least i think so.

Sorry for the hijack, just had to comment on that.

 

[Tokay444]

That’s a cheap scope.

 

[Nathantc]

That’s a cheap scope.

compared to the MK5HD im saving for, yes. Compared to the run of the mill wal-mart and academy specials you see locally, not really. Gotta keep in mind there are a lot of people, like myself, only starting to understand that "works" and "holds zero" are not good enough. I know a lot of people who will not spend more than $200 on optics. Not everyone is on the same level in the game when it comes to shooting.

 

[nn8734]

Yeah. The guys in my sniper section taught me to always confirm torque of the action screws and ring screws at the beginning of each range day. They probably are teaching me the wrong shit. I set to the right settings and go until it clicks. the torque wrench never moves the screws though as they have yet to come at all loose. Appreciate it!

Didnt read all the comments so if this has been addressed already, disregard but have you tried swapping a known good scope to your rifle to see if you reproduce the problem?

 

[Tokay444]

compared to the MK5HD im saving for, yes. Compared to the run of the mill wal-mart and academy specials you see locally, not really. Gotta keep in mind there are a lot of people, like myself, only starting to understand that "works" and "holds zero" are not good enough. I know a lot of people who will not spend more than $200 on optics. Not everyone is on the same level in the game when it comes to shooting.

A run of the mill Walmart scope doesn’t actually qualify as a scope for what we do. You’re better off throwing $200 directly into your fireplace. It will be less frustrating.

 

[impactaddict]

1"-2" is a lot of shift. If all things scope, load, shooter, etc are squared away the only other thing I can think of is barrel. I've seen this exact problem on a barrel that was shot out and shooter refused to change. once shooter finally changed barrel, problem went away.