LPVO or red dot for general purpose and SHTF truck gun
- Thread starter david walter
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And although I do not have an ir laser aiming device shown on these two rifles , I can do pretty good work under nods passively aiming with both these set ups.
Question....why are folks piggy backing an rmr on an lvpo? I mean, the whole point is to have one optic to do most things.....1x= eotech/aimpoint type non-mag optic....6,8,10x for longer rsnge work
In theory…which many here can’t get beyond. I too once thought it silly but after some real world incidents (both my own and others) I am a believer.
Elsewhere…no buis means killed in da streetz.
1) Have a backup aiming option
2) Have a cqb option
3) Have an option not reliant on batteries*
*not applicable to NV setups as that is all about power mgmt
The RMR window and fish-eye is not great for long gun work. One can manage but there are superior red dot options
To me it is a tool that serves a specific purpose. If you are going to regularly shoot 300 yards or greater I would use some kind of etched reticle LPVO. If you are going to shoot primarily inside of 300 yards I greatly prefer EOTECH. If you are going to use NODS and shoot, the dot setup. If you are going to use thermals, the lpvo with an inline clipon.
There are some really good LPVOs that do a really good job of acting as a daylight bright red dot with a good field of view and that allow two eye open shooting. My personal issue with LPVOs is probably a practice issue on my part and that is that you need to get a consistent cheek weld to see through the scope. I prefer the wider FOV of the Eotech and the more forgiving eye relief.
Having said that, almost anyone on this forum with an LPVO will kick my ass on some kind of flat range from 350 to 600 yards with identical rifles other than the optic. I just don't shoot small frames that far very much.
. Can you please explain to me the proper way to edit a thread?
i’ve always thought a safe full of rifles, is like a bag of golf clubs.
ACOG LED with forward mounted RMR/RCR.
Why? Because the ACOG has massive FOV compared to pretty much every LPVO and has better glass than any LPVO at it's price point ($1000-1100). The LED model because it's the only model with a forward mounted RMR position. Why? Because that's the best way to use the dot with NODs without hitting it or being awkward with how you hold the rifle (and at this point, EVERYONE should be saving up for NODs...).
The ACOG will stand up to more abuse than any LPVO will. It's simpler. It's more reliable. It's lighter.
The eye relief complaints on the ACOG are retarded and some of them come from people that haven't ever mounted one on a rifle and tried it. My opinion changed immediately after actually shouldering a rifle with a 4x32 mounted. If you want more eye relief while maintaining an FOV that's still larger than basically every LPVO, get the 3.5x35 model.
If you don't want an ACOG, just get an EOtech or Aimpoint and use a magnifier. After using a bunch of different LPVOs, I think the best use for them is SPR type rifles shooting longer distances and not necessarily something you're beating on day in and day out.
Why? Because the ACOG has massive FOV compared to pretty much every LPVO and has better glass than any LPVO at it's price point ($1000-1100). The LED model because it's the only model with a forward mounted RMR position. Why? Because that's the best way to use the dot with NODs without hitting it or being awkward with how you hold the rifle (and at this point, EVERYONE should be saving up for NODs...).
The ACOG will stand up to more abuse than any LPVO will. It's simpler. It's more reliable. It's lighter.
The eye relief complaints on the ACOG are retarded and some of them come from people that haven't ever mounted one on a rifle and tried it. My opinion changed immediately after actually shouldering a rifle with a 4x32 mounted. If you want more eye relief while maintaining an FOV that's still larger than basically every LPVO, get the 3.5x35 model.
If you don't want an ACOG, just get an EOtech or Aimpoint and use a magnifier. After using a bunch of different LPVOs, I think the best use for them is SPR type rifles shooting longer distances and not necessarily something you're beating on day in and day out.
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I've wanted so much to like an Eotech/Aimpoint magnifier combo. Aside from fine-tuning and the shift from certain mounts, I can't be the only one that thinks the actual image of our option in 2024 is rather pathetic....the Aimpoint magnifiers especially.
Eotech definitely makes the better magnifier. Eotechs are king of NVG passive. Battery life sucks but thems the breaks.
Alternatively, the Romeo 8T is nearly as good under NODs and most likely also very very rugged. Heavy though.
Swapped to an LVPO (ATACR 1-8DMX) after years of running EOTechs, ACOGs, and Aimpoints (with and without magnifiers)….and never looked back.
Running it for everything and haven’t regretted it for use at 2Gun matches/match training, fun range days, teaching my kid, and is capable to work the “oh poop what a predicament” situations.
Nothing piggybacked. Tried all that but didn’t care for it to I ripped the RDS off. Just living it’s best life flying solo on the rifle (LMT MRP). Fucker just plain works.
Target ID and stand-off ability is extremely important in a system. The LVPO beats out everything in the low mag do all capability “oh poop scenario” bracket.
Running it for everything and haven’t regretted it for use at 2Gun matches/match training, fun range days, teaching my kid, and is capable to work the “oh poop what a predicament” situations.
Nothing piggybacked. Tried all that but didn’t care for it to I ripped the RDS off. Just living it’s best life flying solo on the rifle (LMT MRP). Fucker just plain works.
Target ID and stand-off ability is extremely important in a system. The LVPO beats out everything in the low mag do all capability “oh poop scenario” bracket.
Ok, home defense and or truck gun. The hierarchy of close in weapons in my opinion are as follows:
1) 12ga 00 buck. For home/self defense where only the threat is present its the best. Whatever you hit, thats it, on to the next. If you miss, it tears up so much shit, most duck for cover. Next target. Not sexy but definitely gets the job done. You can train your wife on it. (20 ga. maybe)
2) AR pistol 300 blk EOTECH suppressed. Good for home and truck inside 50-75 yds. Better accuracy if you need it, quick accusation and doesn’t just rip through the walls. NODs yes, but remember, putting them on consumes time that you may not have.
3) Truck gun. Out to 100 yds. It’s hard to beat the ACOG/RMR. Amazing accusation. Especially good for jumping out of the truck and banging away on some hawgs.
There are many other options out there. LPVOs are good to. Think about your situations and train for them. Stay safe and be prepared.
1) 12ga 00 buck. For home/self defense where only the threat is present its the best. Whatever you hit, thats it, on to the next. If you miss, it tears up so much shit, most duck for cover. Next target. Not sexy but definitely gets the job done. You can train your wife on it. (20 ga. maybe)
2) AR pistol 300 blk EOTECH suppressed. Good for home and truck inside 50-75 yds. Better accuracy if you need it, quick accusation and doesn’t just rip through the walls. NODs yes, but remember, putting them on consumes time that you may not have.
3) Truck gun. Out to 100 yds. It’s hard to beat the ACOG/RMR. Amazing accusation. Especially good for jumping out of the truck and banging away on some hawgs.
There are many other options out there. LPVOs are good to. Think about your situations and train for them. Stay safe and be prepared.
I like the idea of a shotgun for hd, but there are so many practical problems with them that I shy away. In reality, a 20 ga does not recoil substantially (if any) lighter than a 12 ga. They both recoil substantially more than a 223, 300 BO, or any pcc I can think of. Recoil and small statured people don’t mix well (children, wife, etc). Yes, you can teach them, but they’ll shoot ARs and PCCs better. The magazine capacity of a shotgun sucks. They are slow to load. Pumps are reliable until you short stroke it. Autos are reliable unless they are not. The mag capacity sucks. You must point a shotgun at the target, and missing does nothing to advance your situation. The only advantage of a shotgun, that I can think of, is that buck is slightly less likely to kill a neighbor…
I have astigmatism so I’m on team LPVO/prism, and maybe team EOtech…
I have astigmatism so I’m on team LPVO/prism, and maybe team EOtech…
I like my shotgun. But the reality is I don't shoot them much anymore. Plus I don't reload for them even though I have the presses and the shells are pretty expensive. I'd rather have a suppressor for my AR. Touching off an AR inside isn't anything my ears can deal with after my stint in the Army.
I used to think that too. When the threat weighs more than 1k pounds, or is something that wants to eat you, a PCC or AR won't cut it. Even without the specific use case, Shotguns are devastating and 30 round gunfights are unrealistic. ARs aren't even my third choice anymore despite being one of my favorite platforms.
I can't find the original but here's a video (with annoying commentary) of what two rounds of buck out of a 14" shotgun does to two legged animals. The same aimed shot placement as an AR or PCC but the fight is over instantly. Works on four legged animals too.
A 90 lb woman is much more likely to be able to place rapid hits on target with an ar than a 12 ga shotgun. As Clint Smith says “a shotgun will take chunks out of stuff.” But, you need to hit it. It’s much easier to get a small person accustomed to shooting a light recoiling rifle, than it is a shotgun. Hell, shoot a shotgun enough and you’ll induce all sorts of issues. Look at trap shooters and release triggers.
And, one of the guys on our deer lease is a cop. He was shot in the line of duty by a shot gun at HD range (bird shot). While he has some lingering numbness in his gun hand, his hospital treatment for the injury was basically “outpatient.”
But, this is all an aside to the actual question of the thread… LPVO or Red Dot for truck gun. I don’t have a need for a truck gun, but I lean to LPVO. In my hypothetical use case, a truck gun would be used for “targets of opportunity” in a farm/ranch setting.
I've shot with Clint Smith more than once. Are random 90lb women commandeering the OP's truck gun? You've built a very strange use case that involves a lot of random variables that practically never happen. "I need a gun random women and children can shoot, that holds 30 rounds, but practice or training isn't allowed". Yeah, like random women and children with no training will suddenly pick up an AR15 or MP5 and somehow use either proficiently. "My wife is 90 pounds and she needs...but she can't...". Please, I took my SIL from never having shot a shotgun in her entire life to practical familiarity (shooting and moving) in two hours. I'm no one special and not even an instructor either.
The most likely scenario for lethal force in American involves a pistol. A 30 round civilian engagement with a rifle, that isn't in the ghetto with "choppas", is laughable.
While the ARs are nice and everyone should have one.
I would suspect the weapon of the resistance is going to be a G17 or G19
I specifically limited my scenario to HD, as in home defense. I was replying to Fred’s post that put a shotgun as #1 for home defense.
In my scenario, there are no random women or children. There are, however, a wife and offspring. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a spouse or offspring to be called upon to defend the home. Neither my wife nor my kids shoot as much as I do, though they do shoot. While my older son is a competitive clays shooter, and handles a shotgun as well as any, my wife and younger son are both smaller and more “casual shooters.” I would argue this is a fairly typical household. Ie, Dad is a shooter but mom and the kids are more firearm adjacent.
100 rounds of 223/5.56 are not nearly as punishing to shoot as the same amount of 12 ga (even if shooting lightish bird loads). A casual shooter can shoot much more, with less fatigue, using a 5.56 gun than any HD focused shotgun.
Ask your SiL if she’d rather shoot 100 rounds of m193 or 100 rounds of 00 buck.
(My scenario was random because it includes family members, but Cascade’s is perfectly reasonable because it involves grizzlies? Bwahahaha. I mean, unless you live where grizzlies break in to you home. Then plan accordingly.)
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I know a guy that was involved in a self defense shoot inside his house. He used his shotgun with 00 buck and shot the guy twice at around 14 yards. He hit him once in the chest and once in the face/head. The dirtbag survived, but he is bound to a wheelchair and shits in a bag. Just pointing out that 00 isn't always a one hit stop the fight.
sheesh…i’m not a fan of high base 12ga for fun shooting, too much recoil for casual practice
i know a guy that had a suicide by cop experience. local PD showed up, he waved a 45LC around and the cop did a head shot with a slug at about 15yds. the slug won
maybe i’ll change my 00 out for slugs….
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Dunno, that sounds like two rounds stopped the fight. Kinda invalidates the high cap argument.
My main reason for going with a red dot vs lpvo for the truck is size, weight and portability. It's easier for me to stick a boomstick in a bag with a red dot and conceal than a lpvo.
I know this has gotten way off topic but I am not a big fan of shotguns for self defense. They are not precise enough (for me). I think of shotguns as an area of effect weapon that you use for hunting birds or as possibly a breeching tool to take hinges off of doors. For a truck gun, I still think a simple AR with a simple optic setup is the way to go and you are basically point and shoot out to almost 300 yards.
not too far off topic
i agree and for me, shotguns are for inside homes. if i’m stepping outside then i’ll have a carbine
I went red dot and compact with a 300BO slinging 110 Varmageddons Fast as F*&(. And yes the gold forward assist was on purpose. I call her Sha-Squeeaka .. she got that gold front tooth 
Shotguns can be looked at in the same context as precision rifle...you can't expect top end performance without the appropriate barrel and high-performance ammo. A Vang barrel or Flite Control can do great things. Both used correctly can hold the patterns under 8" at 25y.
The nice thing about shotguns is the slightly more universally acceptable social optics, and considering the most payload per trigger press in the event it's actually used on another human.
Goes back to what the "purpose" is. If we come out of fantasy land, a shotgun could very well get the job done...and often at a lower cost than most of these AR packages.
You know what I meantHonestly, in the "truck gun" vein....yeah, I'd considers skipping optics...certainly anything battery dependent for something "living" in a vehicle/outdoor environment.
PS. My shotguns have optics
You know what I meant
Yeah, you're talking that "Judged by 12, not carried by 6" bullshit macho assholes spout.
But to be clear, i'm not talking that limpdick "don't mod your gun" Mas Ayoob "gonna hang ya out to dry" bullshit either.
But the reality is there and it's often geographically dependent (talking "truck gun").
Totality of the circumstances be a thing...whether you want them to be or not.
Wut? I was referring to your "social optics" comment. The social optics battle is retarded.
Not saying it isn't....but it's a game that's played. Whether you like it or not is incidental.
It's obvious who's just repeating something they read on the internet. It takes, what, 10 minutes to pattern a shotgun? Even cheap 00 out of my 1301 holds 12" at 25 yards. The gun is zero'd with slugs and will hit IPSC's at 100 yards.
Using the Hornady SP 50 gr Vmax and a red dot, zero at 325 yards (1" high at 50 yards, 3-1/8" high at 100), your bullet will stay within 5" radius out to 380 yards. You will be 4.5" high at 200 and 5" low at 380 yards. Aim BCM on a man sized target and you are going to hit where it hurts. Even a coyote size critter, if it's close, aim near the bottom of its chest. If it's a little ways out, aim at the top of the chest.
Is that coffee the weapon of choice when you are backed up? That would explain that nice poop knife, too.
Here is one of my backup weapons:
BBBBBBAD to the bone.
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Haha! Nice weapons there, claws and teeth.
I drink enough coffee that i don’t usually have those problems. But I’ll remember that!
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