Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

[Rockfish Dave]

I called the Burlington Engineering .

Melonite:

Melonite Processing: Melonite Q
Improved Wear Resistance
Improved Running Properties
Increased Fatigue and Rolling Fatigue Strengths
Heat Resistance
Black Color

Melonite Processing: Melonite QP
lncludes the properties of Melonite Q
Lower coefficient of Friction
Decreased surface roughness

Melonite Processing: Melonite QPQ
lncludes the properties of Melonite Q and QP
Low Light Reflection
Further Decreased Coefficient of Friction
Enhanced Corrosion Resistance (Not suitable for stainless)

QP sounds ideal for the barrel.

When I called Burlington Engineering today: They said that they heat the barrel to 1075 degrees F. They say just so long as your original heat treat temp was atleast 20 degree's higher you will not lose your heat treat.

My next call was to Krieger to ask them about the heat treat on their barrels. He says that the blanks are sent for heat treatment out off premise. He also said that anything over 900 degrees would lose the "temper" I assume he is talking about the heat treat.

As attractive as it sounds I just don't feel like screwing up a perfectly good barrel...

The company said they do guns all the time though... the only catch is they parts must be fully disassembled and exclude springs, everything else can be treated.

I hear that Accuracy International uses this coating on their rifles. Hopefully someone in the know can help me with some of my questions as I also am having a long distance bolt gun built up:

I wonder what the application would be for it?

Could the entire action be treated, including the bolt, firing pin, etc?

Would the lugs be OK if treated?

Does this reduce or compromise the the strength of the action?

Would this have a negative impact on the accuracy of the barrel?

Would the barrel be treated before being chambered or after? I ask because if it reduces friction, the bolt will be taking all the pressure if the case does not grip the sides of the chamber.

Thanks.

- Dave

 

[MIKEONE]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

God only know what the application process would do to the heat treat of the barrel.

I wanted to do a Titanium nitride coating on the inside on one of my barrels, like the old Shuemann 1911 gold barrels but its a spray on process no go on the inside.

Im sure it can be done, Melonite that is, but you really got to do your homework.

Good luck! Im interested to see of it will work.

Mike

 

[mattj]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

A local guy ('Mulehunter' on here) had his barrel done and is very pleased.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1681438&page=1


You have to chamber before treatment, as after the treatment, the metal is too hard to cut. You also want to do the treatment with as few rounds down the barrel as possible.

Anyway, talking to a couple of guys, their experience has been:
- No negative effect on accuracy
- Lower chamber pressure (and velocity with the same load) -- The friction decrease seems to be roughly equiv to using moly coated bullets
...and the big one: throat erosion is massively reduced, which should result in much longer barrel life.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

All of POF's barrels are Rock Creeks that get the proprietary nitride heat treatment, when I was on full time there I wanted to do a long term study on the effects specifically in regards to the throat erosion.
The way POF barrel shoot and the potential for reduced throat erosion has me thinking a treated 243 may be in my future.....

 

[Chiller]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of POF's barrels are Rock Creeks that get the proprietary nitride heat treatment, when I was on full time there I wanted to do a long term study on the effects specifically in regards to the throat erosion.
The way POF barrel shoot and the potential for reduced throat erosion has me thinking a treated 243 may be in my future..... </div></div>

bingo

talking to Paul at Rock alot about this.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

Thanks for the help! After a search I came across this:

SHOT Show Report: MMI-Trutec Salt-Bath Nitriding for Barrels

SHOT Show Report: MMI-Trutec Salt-Bath Nitriding for Barrels
Filed under: Gunsmithing, New Product, &#9643;Videos — Tags: Barrel, Friction, IBS, Melonite, Moly, Nitriding, Tenifer — Editor @ 12 pm
Many of our readers know Joel Kendrick, one of America’s top mid-range shooters. Joel is a two-time IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year, and we have featured Joel’s match-winning 6×44 as one of our Guns of the Week. Joel now works with MMi-Trutec, specializing in the salt-bath nitriding process. This is a surface-hardening procedure for steel that creates a super-hard, low friction layer for the top 10-20 microns of the metal. Barrels treated with salt-bath-nitriding show much improved wear resistance and reduced friction.

For match rifles, varmint rifles, and hunting rifles, the most significant benefits of salt-bath nitriding are enhanced barrel life, and easier cleaning. Joel’s own F-Class rifle has a nitrided stainless barrel with over 5000 rounds — and it still holds 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Other well-known shooters, such as John Whidden, have observed that nitrided barrels can shoot longer strings of fire between cleanings, with no reduction of accuracy. What is the cost of nitriding? As Joel explains in the video below, nitriding a single barrel costs $60.00, but there is a minimum first-time lot charge of $100.00. If you submit multiple barrels at the same time, the price per barrel can be reduced significantly. For more info, visit the MMI-Trutec website or contact Joel Kendrick by phone (704) 616-6442, or via email: joelkndrck [at] aol.com .

Is there a downside to nitriding? First, the nitriding process results in a BLACK matte or satin finish. If you like the natural silver finish of stainless steel, you shouldn’t nitride your barrel.

Second, and most importantly, the salt-bath-nitriding process creates a surface so hard that you can NOT re-cut the chamber with normal reaming tools. Therefore, before nitriding, the barrel must be finished chambered. Basically the barrel should be fully finished, crowned, chambered and headspaced before nitriding.

NOTE: MMi Trutec CAN mask the crown during nitriding so that the barrel can be re-crowned at a later time.

Looks like this is in my future! Anyone else want to get a group order in?

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

I think John Pierce was doing builds with this treatment. As I remember, it was reduicing throat wear.
He would be a good contact for answers.

 

[Ishikawa]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

The effect on the barrel is a function of temperature + time. Your barrel mfg should know the phase diagram for the specific alloy being used, and be able to tell you exactly what happens to the material given specific variables in your formula.

Assume for a second that you do relax the original morphology in the barrel....this probably only occurs in the interior of the barrel since the new process includes an element that gets accepted into the exterior structure (to a few microns). You'd end up with something more along the lines of a carbon wrapped barrel, with a high strength material on the outside and something with a larger grain size (more malleable) in the middle. Might not be such a bad thing....although your original mfg may think of it as killing the "heat treat".

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

I have MMI treat stuff for me all the time. With great results. If you want a matte finish just let them know.

This gun the entire barreled action is treated.

 

[jeo556]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Assume for a second that you do relax the original morphology in the barrel....this probably only occurs in the interior of the barrel since the new process includes an element that gets accepted into the exterior structure (to a few microns). You'd end up with something more along the lines of a carbon wrapped barrel, with a high strength material on the outside and something with a larger grain size (more malleable) in the middle. Might not be such a bad thing....although your original mfg may think of it as killing the "heat treat".</div></div>

If I'm correct wouldn't this idea be similiar to how damascus samurai swords are made? From what I understand the master sword maker folds the thin layers of steel over and over to produce a very malleable product, then only adds carbon to a very small portion on the cutting edge. That way the edge is very sharp (albeit brittle), keeps a superb edge, and the back half of the blade provides the strength as it is more malleable and resists brittle failure.

Rifle barrels do bend a ton during firing and the softer steel would prevent a brittle failure while the extremely hard exterior would allow for longer barrel life and less cleaning. The only question would be how does the possible loss of the tempering process jive with the barrel handling pressure?

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

RWS has one top shelf rifle in his post. I sure would be proud to own one like that.

 

[J.A. Hamilton]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

Has anyone had any experience with any of these processes on an action. I have been pondering having a Surgeon action either coated or treated for improved long term longevity and functionality with minimal lube. Curious to hear how these new processes (if there are any that do not ruin the temper) might be used in an action as compared to ceracoating or the like.

Josh

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Melonite treatment for bolt action rifles

I have had several actions and barrels done. Surgeon as well. They treat mystuff at a little lower temp so as not to bother with heat treat/temper.