I know this subject has divided families and may have been one of the reasons the civil war started but I have to ask before I drop $2k on glass. I'm just getting into long range and I'm a pipefitter by trade so working with inches and fractions is done by me on a daily basis, so using a MOA scope would make the most sense to me but its sounds like most people seem to lean towards MIL. I've never had to worry about being too precise before, when I was taught to shoot back in the stone ages if the deer was @ 400 yards you aimed at the spine and hit him in the lungs. In 3 gun its rather simple, 0 @ 200yds 3 1/2" low @ 25yds 1 1/2" high @ 100yds and 8 1/2" low @ 300yds anything past that I use the hold over marks and it gets me on target. But their not very small targets ether. So my question is I only want to learn things once, will I be wasting my time with an MOA optic? Most people say the MIL thing is easier since it's based off tenths, but to me it seems a little more confusing. 1 Moa is close enough to 1" @ 100yds, 1 MIL is 3.6" @ 100yds so if someone tells me I'm 8 MIL low @ 600yds there would be a lot of math involved. However if someone told me I'm 16 MOA low @ 600yds the math would be easy, 1 MOA is 6" @ 600yds so with 1/4 MOA adjustments it would be 10 clicks......right? What an I missing and do I need to take the time to re learn how to do MIL math instead of MOA math? If I stick with MOA will I struggle talking to other people at the range who my be spotting me?
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Rifle Scopes MIL - MOA Virgin
- Thread starter blacklab1
- Start date
You're overthinking it. No math needed. Mils is mils and moa is moa. Neither need to involve inches, feet, meters or conversions of any kind.
Can you explain that? I'm not sure how that works with no math, how do you do your corrections? Not trying to be a smartass just don't understand this stuff yet.
Say you're zeroing a rifle. You can see your group is up and left of the bullseye. Use the hashes in your retical, be they mil or moa, to measure the offset. You measure that you're 2 mils high and 1.5 mils left. Adjust turrets accordingly. With first focal plane scopes it's almost hard to screw it up.
Same thing when someone gives you a correction. They say you impacted .8 mils low of the target. Hold over .8 mils higher or turn your turret 8 clicks.
There is no need to convert anything into a standard measurement. I'm a carpenter by trade, so if inches had any relevance here I'd be all over it, but it's unnecessary.
Same thing when someone gives you a correction. They say you impacted .8 mils low of the target. Hold over .8 mils higher or turn your turret 8 clicks.
There is no need to convert anything into a standard measurement. I'm a carpenter by trade, so if inches had any relevance here I'd be all over it, but it's unnecessary.
The reticle in the scope is the measuring stick. Shoot, measure correction with reticle, boom rengage. Doesn't matter if it's an moa or Mil reticle. Doesnt matter what range you are at. Shoot measure correct rengage. Just make sure whatever scope you buy you understand the reticle and the reticle units match the turret units.
Some people also prefer dialing lower numbers. 10 mils versus 37 MOA. For me, it’s the same. My first scopes were MOA, then I bought Mil scopes. The key is learning your reticle as mentioned by the guys above. Whatever scope you buy, make sure the reticle matches the Turrets. Mil-Mil, MOA-MOA.
Learn both. It’s like speaking and understanding two different languages
Learn both. It’s like speaking and understanding two different languages
If you're a pipefitter or whatever and you need a 6 foot nipple, you measure the full stick with your measure tape. The tape measures in inches which 12 of them make a foot. You measure your 6 feet and cut.
You're shooting a target and you or your spotter see that you're off to the right. You measure with your reticle. If it's a mil/mil scope, chances are the the clicks will be in tenths. You measure with your reticle how much to the right your impact is. In your reticle you notice it's .8 mils so you dial 8 clicks.
Get it??? 10 clicks are equal to 1 mil because the adjustments are in tenths which is why for your correction you only adjust 8 clicks. With feet, it's 12 inches that make up a foot. What am I trying to say? It doesn't really matter because your reticle will be what you're measuring with. Also keep in mind that you're not measuring distances, instead, you're measure angular measurements.
You're shooting a target and you or your spotter see that you're off to the right. You measure with your reticle. If it's a mil/mil scope, chances are the the clicks will be in tenths. You measure with your reticle how much to the right your impact is. In your reticle you notice it's .8 mils so you dial 8 clicks.
Get it??? 10 clicks are equal to 1 mil because the adjustments are in tenths which is why for your correction you only adjust 8 clicks. With feet, it's 12 inches that make up a foot. What am I trying to say? It doesn't really matter because your reticle will be what you're measuring with. Also keep in mind that you're not measuring distances, instead, you're measure angular measurements.
jesus fucking christ. every week there's another thread about this shit.
Just pick a scope you like for whatever reason (looks, cost, weight, anything) as long as turrets match reticle.
Go shoot 500 rounds at different distances and come back here to report what you've learned... I'm guessing your questions will disappear long before you get to 500 rounds.
Go shoot 500 rounds at different distances and come back here to report what you've learned... I'm guessing your questions will disappear long before you get to 500 rounds.
Here is why you're wrong: "Most people say the MIL thing is easier since it's based off tenths, but to me it seems a little more confusing." How many pennies in a dime? How many dimes in a dollar? How many dollar bills in a $10. How many $10's in a $100...want me to keep going. As others have said go first focal plane and make sure your turrets and reticle match.
With the reticle its a ruler, there is no need to think in inches or meters, download a ballistic app on your phone and play with it for two hours. The bushnell one is super simple. meter or yards pick whatever your range finder measures in or you prefer. Set up the app for your preference and it won't matter whether its mils or moa.
If you shoot and someone says you're 8 mils low then you simply dial 8 mils up.
Lets say you're shooting .308 168 grain FGMM and everything being equal at 600 yards you'd dial 16.5moa or 4.8mils.
With the reticle its a ruler, there is no need to think in inches or meters, download a ballistic app on your phone and play with it for two hours. The bushnell one is super simple. meter or yards pick whatever your range finder measures in or you prefer. Set up the app for your preference and it won't matter whether its mils or moa.
If you shoot and someone says you're 8 mils low then you simply dial 8 mils up.
Lets say you're shooting .308 168 grain FGMM and everything being equal at 600 yards you'd dial 16.5moa or 4.8mils.
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Ok, I think I got the idea. Thanks to those who helped and sorry to the ones I pissed off by asking.
Lol, dont feel bad and welcome. Use the search function and see what a 17 page shitshow your question usually devolves into. There are probably dozens of examples. Funny thing is as soon as one disappears off the front page another pops up within a week, sick around you'll see.
No ones pissed, sometimes the search function isn't that great but if you go to google and punch in snipers hide and the topic you're searching for you'll get this:
^^^^ this
the MOA/MIL parameters is too short for the search function, so you won't find the threads using SH search. but google brings them up
the MOA/MIL parameters is too short for the search function, so you won't find the threads using SH search. but google brings them up
Yeah I wasn't ragging on you specifically. It's more of a running joke here on the Hide. After you been on here for 3-5 years plus, you'll get it. We literally see this question posted at LEAST weekly.
Mils are more common with most long range PRS shooters for a few reasons, but namely, 1) more scope/reticle choices available in MIL/MIL (this is a bit of a self fullfilling aspect of the community) 2) wind estimation for holds happens to line up with a very simple math trick. And 3) that it's "easier" to say/write "5.1" mil versus "17.5" MOA, etc. They both get you to the same hold but the dial has a different number. Lastly, 4) .2 tenth reticles are slightly more precise to hold wind and elevation compared to MOA reticles, but then you get into ability to hold vs fast aquisition in reticle.
.25 MOA scopes dial with more precision but it's minimal at best.
I shoot predominantly MOA scopes but I'd probably suggest using MILs if only to make your like easier at matches (should you decide to try one or two).
But honestly, neither system is a major advantage over the other. The lines just have different number. Period.
Good luck!
Google should be everyones first port of call for any questions about anything.
There aren't many questions that haven't been asked on a forum somewhere in the world.
Best part about using Google is you can get hits from forums on all corners of the world, often showing points of view that you might not find here or other similar USA based forums.
Thanks for the info guys, I know no one was attacking me personally and I knew I was going to catch hell for asking. I went back through a few pages on this forum but didn’t find my answer. Then I did a google search and that just confused things more. Everything I read kept comparing 10th MIL to 1/4 or 1/8 MOA. No one put it in plain English that the radical Is just a tool and it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day what you use.
Hmm I think a 10th mil would be 1/3 inch. MOA 4 cliks per inch MIL 3 clicks per inch.
I know you guys are just referencing, but try to stop thinking in clicks when it comes to real adjustment. Clicks do not matter one bit. Try to train yourself to think purely in an angular measurement, not the mechanical force required to get there because the manufacturer supposedly calibrated the device to that.
I've had multiple scopes out of the box that we under or over "calibration". It's more common than one might think.
I've had multiple scopes out of the box that we under or over "calibration". It's more common than one might think.
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Look. It is really as simple as this. Just slow down and think it out.
If you are shooting at your target and you are two MIL low, you adjust two MIL up.
In any direction it works the same way, left right because of wind. Up down because of bullet drop. If your crosshairs intersect the target and see bullet splash at the 2nd dot, you adjust two dots, either by holding or dialing.
Let’s say you shoot at at target way out there. The distance doesn’t mater, and you see impact 3 mil dots low and one mil dot to the right, you now adjust the top turret up three Mils. If the scope turret was at 0 mil, your 100yrd zero, you now twist the top turret to the number 3. This will bring your impact back to the zero line. But wait, you had a mil to the right, now you just hold over one mil value to compensate for the drift and you slowly pull the trigger till you send it. There. You hit the target.
See how I never mentioned how far away the target was? It doesn’t matter. You use this same process at 100yrds or 1850yrds and everything in between.
Yes. It’s that simple.
MOA does the same thing. Just bigger numbers.
Linear measurement doesn’t need brought into the equation at all.
The ONLY time expressing bullet drop in inches (or any other linear measurement) is useful is when holding over with a reticle that has no holdover stadia. And only then you use a linear measurement to relate to target features.
For instance, 5.56 drops pretty much between 18 - 20" at 400 yards when zeroed at 50 yards. Knowing a human chest is about 18" from top of head to where the heart is, you put the reticle (or red dot) on top of the head on a 400 yd man and let it rip. Similarly when hunting animals. Now this is talking about your average hunting or infantry rifle with a duplex reticle or a reflex sight with just a dot.
Point is, a competent rifleman needs to know several systems and techniques for drop compensation
For instance, 5.56 drops pretty much between 18 - 20" at 400 yards when zeroed at 50 yards. Knowing a human chest is about 18" from top of head to where the heart is, you put the reticle (or red dot) on top of the head on a 400 yd man and let it rip. Similarly when hunting animals. Now this is talking about your average hunting or infantry rifle with a duplex reticle or a reflex sight with just a dot.
Point is, a competent rifleman needs to know several systems and techniques for drop compensation
