Explain why you believe that.Wind calling is easier and more accurate in MILS.
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Explain why you believe that.Wind calling is easier and more accurate in MILS.
Some of the posts here, like the wind calling and thinking in linear measurements to name a couple but not just those, just make me shake my head in amazement. Some people need to really take some classes and learn this subject because the lack of understanding is unbelievable.
What does that have to do with it? Either one are angular measurements, and have nothing to do with linear ones.
RANGE (YARDS) | VELOCITY (FPS) | ENERGY (FT.-LB.) | TRAJECTORY (IN) | COME UP IN MOA | COME UP IN MILS | WIND DRIFT (IN) | WIND DRIFT IN MOA | WIND DRIFT IN MILS |
Muzzle | 2700 | 2266 | -1.5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
1000 | 1723 | 923 | -285.9 | 27.3 | 7.9 | 49.4 | 4.7 | 1.4 |
Because for whatever reason, the way wind acts upon a bullet in flight falls much more neatly into MILS. All methods of calling wind in MOA must be skewed toward the farther ranges to avoid a miss, while calling in MILS allows the call to be much closer to the true angle of deflection/departure at all ranges.
If I find that say, a 4 mph wind moves my bullet 1 MIL at 1000 yds, then I know that I can apply that as a percentage at all ranges using the decimal equivalent. EX: my wind call at 750 yds would be 0.75 MILS, at 500yds it would be 0.5 MILS, at 300 yds it is 0.3 MILS etc.
Using the "basic" wind, I adjust the call to actual wind with just a little basic mental math. Say it's an 8mph wind, 8 is double my basic wind, then 1000yds is a 2 MIL hold, 750yds is a 1.5 MIL hold, etc. These values aren't absolutely perfect as far as true drift, but they are very close.
When trying to apply the same method to MOA ( aka the british method ), it can work, but you have to skew your rule of thumb (i.e basic wind) toward the farther ranges, and it can actually be far enough off to cause a miss at the shorter ranges if the target is small.
Because for whatever reason, the way wind acts upon a bullet in flight falls much more neatly into MILS. All methods of calling wind in MOA must be skewed toward the farther ranges to avoid a miss, while calling in MILS allows the call to be much closer to the true angle of deflection/departure at all ranges.
If I find that say, a 4 mph wind moves my bullet 1 MIL at 1000 yds, then I know that I can apply that as a percentage at all ranges using the decimal equivalent. EX: my wind call at 750 yds would be 0.75 MILS, at 500yds it would be 0.5 MILS, at 300 yds it is 0.3 MILS etc.
Using the "basic" wind, I adjust the call to actual wind with just a little basic mental math. Say it's an 8mph wind, 8 is double my basic wind, then 1000yds is a 2 MIL hold, 750yds is a 1.5 MIL hold, etc. These values aren't absolutely perfect as far as true drift, but they are very close.
When trying to apply the same method to MOA ( aka the british method ), it can work, but you have to skew your rule of thumb (i.e basic wind) toward the farther ranges, and it can actually be far enough off to cause a miss at the shorter ranges if the target is small.
I don't understand how this has made it three pages.
Pick one and learn it, matching reticles to turrets are the only way to go, now let's go shoot!
Nobody here seems to be able to differentiate between plugging some formula into a computer vs. doing the mental math to make dynamic, swithching wind calls in an actual field situation. By your responses, it is clear that none of you has an inkling of what I'm talking about.
Nobody here seems to be able to differentiate between plugging some formula into a computer vs. doing the mental math to make dynamic, swithching wind calls in an actual field situation. By your responses, it is clear that none of you has an inkling of what I'm talking about.
There both angular measurements so convert .1 mil to moa and what do you get?
mrad is not metric. .1 mil clicks converts to .34 moa click. Thus, the difference between a .25 click and .1 mil click is .09 moa. I don't like converting back and forth like this but just showing there is not enough difference to matter or even see. There is no discernable difference down range between a 1/4 moa click and a 1/3 moa (.1 mil) click. Take a 2 moa target at 500 yards and calculate how many .25 moa clicks to travel across the target vs .1 mil clicks. You should be able to figure it out in your head.
And to add insult to injury for that target the firing solution on my rifle rounded to click values is 8.5 moa or 2.4 mils both of which is good for the same 44" of elevation.
And i hope this confuses the fuck out of everyone because i took a shit in your brain but you will never be able to find it.
this article Lowlight wrote is good. Down at the bottom covers MOA-MIL. Hope this helps
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/articles/travel
Let me try with my poor English. MIL= coarse angle measurement vs easier math in metric system. MOA=finer angle measurement but more complex math either systems.
What?FFP scopes suck shooting subs 300-400+ yards on a stick you also shoot high speed from.
You guys keep getting hung up on the mathmatical differences between the two systems of measure. That is not what I am talking about. I would like to try this one more time.
There are three basic ways to call wind in the field... WITHOUT AN APP! ...You can:
1) Use one of a couple of formulas in which the wind speed is multiplied by the range and divided by a constant.
2) Assume a standard or "basic" wind (usually 10 mph) and adjust the actual deflection call based on the percentage the wind deviates from the standard.
3) Assume a standard deflection (i.e 1MIL or 10 MOA @ 1000 yds) and using the wind that causes that, call that your "basic wind", and adjust the call from there.
All of these methods have been taught at various times in various military schools.
Problem with #1: You are having to do actual math, either on a calculator or with pen and paper, while the wind is changing. The constants also change with the different ranges (which means they really aren't constants, but for lack of a better term...). However, this method does have the attribute of not needing either memorization or dope charts.
Problem with #2: You either have to memorize all your wind dope at each range to make the adjustment, or carry a dope chart (which can be destroyed or lost).
In my experience, #3 is the winner. It requires neither memorization, nor formulas, nor dope charts, and the math can be very quickly done in your head, on the fly, by just adjusting the basic call by the percentage of difference.
Does anybody get what I am saying so far?
So...when using method #3... the numbers that make that method work, are somewhat more awkward when doing it MOA, while doing it in MILS is a little faster, and a little bit closer to true drift.
That is the only point I was trying to get across! I didn't make this stuff up. Someone, who is smarter the me, at one of the military schools over 20 years ago came up with this method, and it is still being taught today.
Does this stuff matter to anyone....anyone at all?
The search bar is your friend.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/blogs/lowlight/6252897-mils-vs-moa-which-one-is-right-for-you
What?
I literally have no idea why you would NOT want FFP when switching between supersonic and subs. I've shot a lot of subs. Can't say my FFP reticle ever got in the way of anything.He was doing great as the party cadre of the thread and along came that statement about fast bullets vs ffp. That deserves its own dedicated thread for the NKVD spooks.
I swear this stuff wears me out, some who post here remind me of a bunch of chimpanzees throwing feces at the moon.
I literally have no idea why you would NOT want FFP when switching between supersonic and subs. I've shot a lot of subs. Can't say my FFP reticle ever got in the way of anything.
Start a thread send me a link and find out.
at one of the military schools over 20 years ago came up with this method, and it is still being taught today.
Does this stuff matter to anyone....anyone at all?
You start a thread and send me a link so I can find out.
... like I said, I have never had an issue with it and certainly don't need to go looking for answers to problems I don't have.
Like a bunch of chimpanzees throwing feces at the moon. I love that description.
You really mean those you have not experienced to-date.
Quite obviously if I haven't experienced it, that means it isn't a problem for me. Other people's problems are not my own.
The concept that FFP reticles are not suitable for subsonic rounds holds no truth in my world. I've engaged targets to 500yds+ with subsonic 308 and 300BLK using FFP optics. Probably more than 10,000rnds of purposeful subsonic experience behind me in precision rifles. The only potential argument I could see someone make would be that when you dial to the lowest magnification to gain max hold-over, the reticle gets hard to read in low light without illumination or against a cluttered background, which also could be countered with illumination. While the argument "could" be made by someone using inferior hardware, it certainly doesn't mean the argument is correct as a blanket statement, because quite obviously - equipment exists where by that is not a problem.
All this being said in the vein of doing my part to ensure people are not mislead here. I have no sway over what you do, nor would I want. It's 2017 and I would have thought that incorrect blanket statements against FFP reticles would be behind the industry or at least people on this site... yet it persists.
... and just because you have had issues, doesn't mean a real problem exists. I never said each system didn't have drawbacks or compromises. If you want to debate me, do it based on things I say... not things you think I said.but just because you have never experienced them does not mean they don't exist.
... and just because you have had issues, doesn't mean a real problem exists. I never said each system didn't have drawbacks or compromises. If you want to debate me, do it based on things I say... not things you think I said.
Why are you being so vague? You claim one time in a match you had an issue, so did others. So what was the issue in that match, specifically?
What is the problem with subs and FFP, specifically?
... because continuing to reference some "problem" you had without outing what it is helps no one. If it helps no one, why mention it? If you "can't" tell anyone because it's classified, then maybe you shouldn't be even "alluding" to it. If you aren't willing to answer the two above questions, specifically... say so and I'll simply drop it. ... but if you want to keep saying "its a problem" over and over without saying why, what the hell is the point of it?
The answer/issue is right under your nose/s. The difference between want can be held in the ret w/o dialing/moving at all. Shooting/training is great but when you induce past real world shots/events it can be a eye opening stage. No scope is perfect for everything, the trick is to know how to use what you have if/when the time comes it's all on the line.
One training venue as a stage that requires a 7-20(random) yd subsonic shot. What we don't tell the students is the main target (the training money shot) will present it's self at 385+/- yds while they are setting up on the close in shot. The spotter if he is doing his/her job should face ID the money shot. The issue comes from the fact it was a real world shot from 2005 where 2 enemy were but 25yds away looking right at the teams hide but never seen them. Any movement would have give them away, instead the shooter held correctly on 3.5 power, tagged the high priority target of opportunity, the spotter then did his job an the rest is history. Does this make SFP king no it does not, can it be done with a FFP yes it can as there are a "couple now a days" that have enough hold to use that way.
Gun was a .308win, scope was SFP Leupold 3.5x10x40 MK4 M3 Mil Dot. On 3.5 power there is ruffly 28.5 +/- mills of hold over.
The new TS32-1 MOA ret Leupold installs in the same scope allows ruffly 92 MOA of hold over on 3.5 power, before you add the 55 minutes more the knob allows.
With due respect, just as I mentioned and suspected, this problem... isn't really a problem. Not in the context of this thread or in the context of almost any thread here. Not for civilian shooters, and I'd venture to guess not for a significant portion of mil/le shooters. If you go back and read this was exactly my first guess as to what you were going to say, so I don't see why it took so long to drag it out of you. ... and I'm not sure how you can start off with "its right there under your nose," as if this is some secret squirrel shit when I already stated what it likely was. There are literally more than a dozen FFP optics on the market right now that can give you a hold for a 385yd target with subs. If the shooter in the situation you describe gets in position at a low power and stays there, the shot will be made even MORE quickly and with more precision with the guy running FFP because at least his reticle will subtend the actual value. If either shooter, ffp or sfp gets in with a high magnification setting, they will both have to make a movement. You don't magically get more hold on high mag with a SFP just because the reticle isn't scaling.
The statement you made in which FFP is not good for subs simply doesn't hold water. If that shooter in the situation you described above had the right FFP optic on his rifle, he likely would have made the shot even faster and easier than he did with his SFP leupy. I have no doubt that your knowledge in the area of shooting people is absolutely valuable as it pertains to tactical decision making in real world threat situations. I'll happily bow out to you there as I have no experience as a sniper on a battlefield. However, I think it would be good for you to expand your horizons regarding equipment options and reticle selection before making blanket statements which condemn an entire classification of reticle just because a single situation an optic caused an issue once. Especially on a website where 99.9% of the discussion is civilian oriented.
A 175SMK at 1050fps only needs about 15.5 mils to make the trip to 385. It doesn't take a special kind of FFP optic to perform that kind of hold. The Tangent Theta 315P has almost 60 mils of holds beneath the crosshair on 3x magnification, with subtensions every 2 mils past 10 mils. I've made shots to 425 or so using nothing but holds. The reticle is MORE than functional and useable at 5x even against cluttered backgrounds. At 8x it has 22 mils worth of holds beneath center crosshair, and that is more than enough magnification for a body-sized target at 400yds.
Well you sure had the time to respond immediately 3 times... but apparently not the time to actually describe your "problem."Interesting to for you to think I have nothing better to do than answer your questions, immediately.
Well you sure had the time to respond immediately 3 times... but apparently not the time to actually describe your "problem."
You clearly can only see this issue from the veil of shooting people... so I'll leave you to it. Your rant about idiotic gear queer shooters has nothing to do with me.