Military releases report on Sig M17/18 accidental discharge

[ut755ln]

No reason for concern

A bullet from the sergeant’s own gun ripped through his foot, leading to surgery and six months of rehabilitation. Photos included in the Army’s report appear to show a bloodstained carpet.

“Don’t feel safe around those weapons anymore,” the sergeant later told investigators

 

[Ape_Factory]

Interesting article but the first thing I would have done is compared the incident reports for Sigs vs. prior issued hand guns over the same length of time. I own a Beretta 92 series M9 as well as an M18 and objectively, I can see how more mistakes could be made with the M18 but it still seems to be a holster and training issue to me.

 

[MK20]

Interesting article but the first thing I would have done is compared the incident reports for Sigs vs. prior issued hand guns over the same length of time. I own a Beretta 92 series M9 as well as an M18 and objectively, I can see how more mistakes could be made with the M18 but it still seems to be a holster and training issue to me.

No, it's an issue of the guns firing when dropped. This has been well documented and replicated in controlled testing conditions.

 

[MK20]

 

[HUNTERVASSER]

I have seen Soldier’s do a ton of stupid things when handling and using firearms. This will not be a good combination.

 

[MK20]

 

[MK20]

This is one of the main reasons I now avoid all sig products. I have found them to be poorly engineered, overly complicated, and insufficiently beta tested.

I do not get paid to beta test guns for sig, and until they do pay me, I do not plan to pay my hard earned money for sig products.

 

[264win]

This is my perspective as well ^^^

 

[Ghosting]

Well I just tested my p320 spectre and I guess I got one of the ones that wont go off when dropped like that. I dropped it 10 times like in the video and it didn't fail. Kinda sucks though because you'll never know for sure

 

[01911]

If another 60 rounds of rifle ammo weighs the same then maybe that would be a better use of resources then carrying a pistol that you’ll never use ?

 

[Ape_Factory]

No, it's an issue of the guns firing when dropped. This has been well documented and replicated in controlled testing conditions.

You're quoting SIX YEAR OLD videos. Sig had a recall. If you read the article thoroughly, it talked about the initial drop fire incidents and Sig's fixes for them which were implemented throughout the military issue as well as the civilian guns. I'm not saying there isn't an issue with the Sig but almost all the incidents now come from guns that are holstered "correctly" or otherwise.

 

[ironpony52]

MEH............. LEO's and military the two worst gun handling groups by FAR. I shot IPSC for many years, the first rule was to avoid LEO and military as you probably will get shot................GOD forbid you got one on your squad, total cluster@@@@. Plan on spending the day listening to them argue with the RO.

 

[pmclaine]

The picture in this vid appears to show the “full shoe” trigger.

The mass of the traditional trigger was a factor.

The flat skeleton triggers were added to remove one issue.

 

[pmclaine]

Well I just tested my p320 spectre and I guess I got one of the ones that wont go off when dropped like that. I dropped it 10 times like in the video and it didn't fail. Kinda sucks though because you'll never know for sure

I was getting my AXG ready to go to the range from my safe.

I keep my pistols on a shelf, in a rack, the rack generally holding them muzzle down, blackstrap toward person at the safe door.

I inserted full mag of 17, racked the slide, than had to look around for my extra round to top the magazine.

I put the pistol back in the rack.

I didn’t realize with a magazine the butt was so heavy it caused the pistol to overcome the muzzle counterweight.

As I looked for the spare round I watched in slow motion horror as the rear of the pistol sank in its rack rotating the barrel back toward the safe door and me.

I should have ran screaming like a girl but I stupidly tried catching it, feeling it fumble through my hands as it now fell through space - lucky one of my fingers didn’t end up in the trigger guard.

After passing through my hands like a greased pig it stabilized - blackstrap square to edge of steel safe door jamb.

It hit hard enough to mark the cerakote but did not go bang.

It was enough drop test for me. I’m sure that one has good sear interface and the trigger is light enough not to overcome its springs.

If I want an absolutely safe pistol I will carry a 1911 with its three different safeties.

How any striker fire gets called safer than a 1911 escapes me.

It all depends on user in most cases.

 

[pmclaine]

MEH............. LEO's and military the two worst gun handling groups by FAR. I shot IPSC for many years, the first rule was to avoid LEO and military as you probably will get shot................GOD forbid you got one on your squad, total cluster@@@@. Plan on spending the day listening to them argue with the RO.

 

[FatBoy]

Was watching a Ben Stoeger short the other day. He was talking about Sig losing its first court case over 320s discharging. I have not seen the evidence, but according to the clip the pistol was photographed before it was unholstered and it showed the pistol did fire in the holster, with the spent case jammed in between the pistol and the holster. Not sure how that could be accomplished with poor holstering.

I cannot wrap my head around how this happens. Doesn’t seem physically possible, but after seeing that one go off in the school, IMO not all of claims are bullshit claims.

I have 6-7 Sig pistols, to include an original 320 (not sent back yet) in a M17 kit. Half of them have had a failure of some sort or required return for a failure. I’m done with Modern Sigs.

Our Soldiers deserve better and we do too. I don’t want to see Sig sued out of existence, but they can and should do better.

 

[ironpony52]

this was posted on another site not sure how accurate a source.

From the report of the incident at Letterkenny Army Depot, PA:

*Weapon is an M17 Modular Hand System (MHS) NSN: 1005-01-661-7317
*Holster is a Safariland 7360-7TS ALS/SLS Mid Ride, Level 3 Retention Duty Holster, Right Hand, Plain Black
*Flashlight is a Streamlight TLR 1 HL

A number of reported incidents revolve around the use (misuse) of the Safariland holster and weapon mounted lights. IIRC, Safariland has issued a warning about their holsters.

 

[ut755ln]

LG Police Officer’s Life Saved After Gunshot Wound | The Fayette County Record

His Weapon Discharged While Secure in Holster; Same Pistol has Been Involved in Similar Incidents Nationwide A La Grange Police Officer suffered a life-threatening gunshot wound last Thursday after his duty weapon discharged while secure in his holster. The pistol, a SIG Sauer P320, has been the...

www.fayettecountyrecord.com

"A La Grange Police Officer suffered a life-threatening gunshot wound last Thursday after his duty weapon discharged while secure in his holster.

The pistol, a SIG Sauer P320, has been the subject of several lawsuits due to similar incidents across the nation.

La Grange Police Chief David Gilbreath said Patrolman Kevin Currington was locking the gates at Northside Park last Thursday, May 9, around 7:30 p.m. Currington was walking between the gate and his police car when the gun fired from his holster. Gilbreath said Currington had not touched the gun or the holster when it fired.

The bullet struck Currington in his right leg below the knee, hitting an artery and a bone.

Currington called for help over the radio. Officer Mitchell Maxwell arrived first to the scene. Gilbreath said Maxwell and a private citizen who lived in the area rendered lifesaving aid to Currington, who was bleeding profusely. They attached two tourniquets to his leg above the wound and stopped the bleeding.

“They definitely saved his life,” Gilbreath said. “We can’t thank them enough.”

 

[MK20]

Wait until one of these goes off appendix carry.

 

[atomic41]

Very interesting results. Has anyone tested other handguns under the same non-industry test standard conditions? I do appreciate the work they put in, but unless they tested other guns using the same test method, this work is pointless.

Also, have any of these cases been from dropping the gun? I don't recall any incidents of discharge from dropping. The ones that I've heard about seem to be from the holstering process or while already holstered.

 

[ut755ln]

Very interesting results. Has anyone tested other handguns under the same non-industry test standard conditions? I do appreciate the work they put in, but unless they tested other guns using the same test method, this work is pointless.

Also, have any of these cases been from dropping the gun? I don't recall any incidents of discharge from dropping. The ones that I've heard about seem to be from the holstering process or while already holstered.

They were not drop safe initially and had to be recalled. My understanding is that current 320s are drop safe.

 

[atomic41]

They were not drop safe initially and had to be recalled. My understanding is that current 320s are drop safe.

That is my understanding as well that the current P320 passes the industry test standard. The test performed in the video is not the industry test standard. So, did they test other handguns in the same way? If not, why?

If they choose to not sell the gun based on their own testing and concern for customers, that's great and a respectable decision. But, did they put other guns through the same or a series of other stress tests to find a failure point?

 

[Basic user]

Nope, this is not a drop safety thing. This is a striker dropping all on it's own, while no human is even touching it thing. There are videos of this happening. You should see the reports for the M17 malfunctions in the Army, like rear sights flying off and hitting joes in the face, not to mention slam fires..

 

[Makinchips208]

If I want an absolutely safe pistol I will carry a 1911 with its three different safeties.

How any striker fire gets called safer than a 1911 escapes me.

I for sure wouldn’t say that a Glock is safer than a 1911 that’s on safe, but a Glock does effectively have a double action trigger with three internal safeties. Not sure of any other striker fired gun that is quite the same except Glock clones.
Is the P320 a single action?

 

[MK20]

The 320 holds the striker at full cock. That is how they lightened the trigger pull.

 

[mark5pt56]

In my opinion, you don't have to be an engineer, rock scientist, etc to see how a duty, carry, combat arm with a striker at full cock, intricate internal parts with at least one redesign to exhibit the problems we see. Now we aren't talking folks who have managed to shoot themselves or others by being unsafe.
I will also say, there is no way the 320 out performed the Glock in these trials. Palms were greased and people let the whole modular system along with the light trigger affect their reasoning. The whole modular system idea, same as the "quick change barrel" bullshit on an AR is DAF and rarely used by real end users other than folks playing dress up

 

[mark5pt56]

I recall many years ago seeing these in a shop and the sales guy saying how they are the shit. When I tried the trigger, first thing I said was "this is going to be a problem"

 

[W54/XM-388]

If I want an absolutely safe pistol I will carry a 1911 with its three different safeties.

How any striker fire gets called safer than a 1911 escapes me.

It all depends on user in most cases.

So about that.
Carry a H&K USP P30 or HK45 setup in the DA/SA configuration with the decocker and manual safety.
1. You can safely decock it.
2. You can then put the safety on while it's decocked

In my opinion carrying one of those H&K pistols decocked and on safe is "more safe" than trusting the safeties on a 1911

Or just get an H&K P7

 

[Namekagon]

Does anyone have an idea of what’s happening internally on the AD’s with no drop or trigger pull? I’m surprised that this problem extends to the m17-m18 being that they have a safety. Although o confess I don’t own one and have no idea how they work. All my SIGs are DA/SA and I love them.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I cannot wrap my head around how this happens. Doesn’t seem physically possible, but after seeing that one go off in the school, IMO not all of claims are bullshit claims.

Could be a holster issue where the holster has a pinch point at the trigger because it wasn't made to the correct tolerance.
Something be it direct pressure or inertia pushed it a bit harder or to the side just enough to make it move the trigger a tiny bit.

It's like folks saying nothing can ever make Glocks have a misfire, but yet bad holsters or weak holsters can make it happen.

That being said, due to the much lighter trigger pull required to make a P320 go off as compared to a stock Glock, that can be more of an issue.
I don't see any reports anywhere of the M17/M18 / P320MS going off while the safety was engaged.

 

[MK20]

Could be a holster issue where the holster has a pinch point at the trigger because it wasn't made to the correct tolerance.
Something be it direct pressure or inertia pushed it a bit harder or to the side just enough to make it move the trigger a tiny bit.

It's like folks saying nothing can ever make Glocks have a misfire, but yet bad holsters or weak holsters can make it happen.

That being said, due to the much lighter trigger pull required to make a P320 go off as compared to a stock Glock, that can be more of an issue.
I don't see any reports anywhere of the M17/M18 / P320MS going off while the safety was engaged.

This thread has examples of the m17/18 going off. Read more.

 

[Namekagon]

Could be a holster issue where the holster has a pinch point at the trigger because it wasn't made to the correct tolerance.
Something be it direct pressure or inertia pushed it a bit harder or to the side just enough to make it move the trigger a tiny bit.

It's like folks saying nothing can ever make Glocks have a misfire, but yet bad holsters or weak holsters can make it happen.

That being said, due to the much lighter trigger pull required to make a P320 go off as compared to a stock Glock, that can be more of an issue.
I don't see any reports anywhere of the M17/M18 / P320MS going off while the safety was engaged.

The article at the top claims that supposedly the safety was engaged when the M17/18 went off.

I wonder if the trigger is being partially pressed or something during the holstering process and removing a portion of sear engagement that is then not resetting? Resulting in a striker that is barely held back? Again, I don't know exactly how these guns function, and have no idea how the safety figures into the mechanism. To me the strange thing is when it happens on a specific 320, and then attempts to re-create the failure are not successful.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This is one of the main reasons I now avoid all sig products. I have found them to be poorly engineered, overly complicated, and insufficiently beta tested.

I do not get paid to beta test guns for sig, and until they do pay me, I do not plan to pay my hard earned money for sig products.

Thats been SIG usa's MO since Cohen took over. See, first he fucked Kimber into the ground, then moved to do the same to SIG.

Good thing they have a first class bribery/contract payoff scheme because their gunmaking is 3rd rate.

I have been telling people this for over 15 years, and they still don't get it. Most "gun" people are as fucking retarded as democrats so its not a surprise.

1.Come out with shitty half engineered product
2.Use customers as the Beta testers
3.Revise product a few years later
4.Revised product is not backwards compatible
5,Discontinue old product, stop supporting it, leaving you with a paperweight.
6.By the time the product is fleshed out and semi reliable, They come out with some new beta testing bullshit sparkly thing for the retards to jerk each other off too.
7. Back to #1.

The only Sigs worth owning say made in West Germany or Switzerland.

Anytime I see someone pimping sig shit, I know they are half retarded and new to the gun game.

 

[308pirate]

I for sure wouldn’t say that a Glock is safer than a 1911 that’s on safe, but a Glock does effectively have a double action trigger with three internal safeties. Not sure of any other striker fired gun that is quite the same except Glock clones.
Is the P320 a single action?

The CZ P-10, while not a Glock clone, has the same three types of passive safeties that Glock does and like Glock has a partially tensioned striker.

 

[W54/XM-388]

1.Come out with shitty half engineered product
2.Use customers as the Beta testers
3.Revise product a few years later
4.Revised product is not backwards compatible
5,Discontinue old product, stop supporting it, leaving you with a paperweight.
6.By the time the product is fleshed out and semi reliable, They come out with some new beta testing bullshit sparkly thing for the retards to jerk each other off too.
7. Back to #1.

You've just kind of described Google, Microsoft, Tesla, Intel and pretty much most big flashy corporations these days.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You've just kind of described Google, Microsoft, Tesla, Intel and pretty much most big flashy corporations these days.

Gun companies have nothing to do with tech. Sig is unique in the gun world for doing this shit.

 

[kl3309]

...there is no way the 320 out performed the Glock in these trials...

According to SmallArmsSolutions, there was no phase 2 (head-to-head) testing conducted as the Sig was adopted after phase 1 based on price:

(Skip to 19:02)

 

[W54/XM-388]

According to SmallArmsSolutions, there was no phase 2 (head-to-head) testing conducted as the Sig was adopted after phase 1 based on price:

(Skip to 19:02)

What I'm sad about is had Glock won the contract there is a chance we could be buying Glocks with manual safeties, since that as I recall was a requirement.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

According to SmallArmsSolutions, there was no phase 2 (head-to-head) testing conducted as the Sig was adopted after phase 1 based on price:

(Skip to 19:02)

That's what you call contract corruption. Glock was kicking the shit out of them in the testing DESPITE the entire RFP being written for SIG. They had to end it before all the testing concluded as it would be very hard to defend all that hard data.

Any unit worth a shit already running glocks is going to keep running them.

 

[Milf Dots]

Over the years at least a few Glock experts have said that in the impossible scenario where all the Glock safety mechanisms fail, the "resting" striker pre-tension would be enough to ignite a primer and cause a discharge.

 

[Milf Dots]

The CZ P-10, while not a Glock clone, has the same three types of passive safeties that Glock does and like Glock has a partially tensioned striker.

I prefer the p10 models over even the glock gen5. I'll pick up a CZ P10c O.R. in FDE.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I prefer the p10 models over even the glock gen5. I'll pick up a CZ P10c O.R. in FDE.

I have both of those and the P320

Personally of the 3 I'd actually vote for none of the above as my favourite and instead pick the Walther PDP / PDP-F
I even prefer it above the H&K VP9 which is really nice.

 

[308pirate]

I have both of those and the P320

Personally of the 3 I'd actually vote for none of the above as my favourite and instead pick the Walther PDP / PDP-F
I even prefer it above the H&K VP9 which is really nice.

A friend has the PDP match in both steel and plastic. Very nice.

 

[W54/XM-388]

A friend has the PDP match in both steel and plastic. Very nice.

For me it has to do with how the grip and trigger reach fit my hand.

If you happen to have smaller hands or shorter fingers, the small hand specific PDP-F is really nice to use.
I also have the PDP Pro SD Full Size 5.1" and the PDP Match Full Size Steel Frame 5".
The steel frame Match is one heavy pistol and is a joy to shoot. I liked it more than my factory CZ Shadow 2 OR, so I sent the Shadow 2 to CGW to see if they could make it have a better trigger.
It competes hard with the current generation SIG P226 XFive, (which costs more)

What I'd like to get next is the PDP Compact Steel Frame 4" and compare that side by side to a CGW CZ Shadow 2 Compact.

Then I'll try sending the P-10 to CGW and see how it is when it comes back.

 

[reelserious]

This is one of the main reasons I now avoid all sig products. I have found them to be poorly engineered, overly complicated, and insufficiently beta tested.

I do not get paid to beta test guns for sig, and until they do pay me, I do not plan to pay my hard earned money for sig products.

poorly engineered, overly complicated

bingo

 

[carbonbased]

Does anyone have an idea of what’s happening internally on the AD’s with no drop or trigger pull?

To me the strange thing is when it happens on a specific 320, and then attempts to re-create the failure are not successful.

Goddamnit people. It’s pretty obvious.

It’s a classic SIG cost-saving measure:

1. They shrunk the contract-winning hookers and were squirted into the 320 as a permanent “lube”
2. Bitches be bitches
3. 

 

[308pirate]

For me it has to do with how the grip and trigger reach fit my hand.

If you happen to have smaller hands or shorter fingers, the small hand specific PDP-F is really nice to use.
I also have the PDP Pro SD Full Size 5.1" and the PDP Match Full Size Steel Frame 5".
The steel frame Match is one heavy pistol and is a joy to shoot. I liked it more than my factory CZ Shadow 2 OR, so I sent the Shadow 2 to CGW to see if they could make it have a better trigger.
It competes hard with the current generation SIG P226 XFive, (which costs more)

What I'd like to get next is the PDP Compact Steel Frame 4" and compare that side by side to a CGW CZ Shadow 2 Compact.

Then I'll try sending the P-10 to CGW and see how it is when it comes back.

There's not a hill of beans difference between a Shadow 2 trigger and a PDP match trigger

 

[W54/XM-388]

There's not a hill of beans difference between a Shadow 2 trigger and a PDP match trigger

Have you compared a Shadow 2 stock factory trigger to a CGW tuned Shadow 2 trigger?

One note to make sure of course we are on the same page, all my hammer fired CZs are setup as DA/SA models.

 

[308pirate]

Have you compared a Shadow 2 stock factory trigger to a CGW tuned Shadow 2 trigger?

Yes. Makes no difference with enough skill.

 

[308pirate]

my hammer fired CZs are setup as DA/SA models.

So are mine. They have to start hammer down in the USPSA division I compete in.