Gunsmithing Mill with 3 phase power?

M

Mike308Bell

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 31, 2011
85
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Georgia, USA
#1
I know nothing about electricity other then dont piss on the electric fence and dont stick anything in a socket that dont belong.......

Ok first thing is this,

What I have is the opportunity to trade my work bonus for a Lagun manual mill that has maybe 100 hours at the most. (3 or 4 times the value of my bonus) Its been sitting in the tool cage for about 20 years and maybe gets used once a month and that might be streching it....

It has 3 phase wiring and I know I cant just hook it up to 220volt like a welder. What would it take to get 3 phase in my little work shop at my house OR.... if I cant get 3 phase wired to my box, how does a convertor set up?

Anybody know what I can do or should I give up on trying to get this mill?

I also picked up a big arse Baldor buffer/grinder for free but its 3 phase also)
 
#2
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

You just need a 3ph motor as big or bigger than the highest horsepower motor you intend to run with it.

You can start it with either a static converter or a pulley and belt to a single phase motor of the same rpm.

Search youtube for videos.

If you have room for them, get them. Worry about the power later.
 
#3
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

First, because you said it was a manual machine, I presume it does not have a variable drive motor.

If that's the case, you will need a phase converter, and can use a static converter (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=952748&PMAKA=297-3725). That will get you to about 2/3 of the power of the machine. (you can add a motor, or get a rotary phase converter, but if you're not going to run full power, or all machines at the same time, 2/3 should do ok for a home machine. you can always add a motor to get you to near full power, later, if you need to)

It will have to be the appropriate size to drive all of your 3 phase equipment, and will need a dedicated 220v circuit.

Take a look at the Phase-A-Matic web site. they'll guide you to the appropriate sisze. it all has to do with motor size and current draw, which should be on the label of the motors.

They're relatively simple to wire. 220v single phase into teh box, 220v 3-phase out to the machines.
 
#4
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

I should note that you should make sure it is 220 volt 3 phase and not 480.

You can get as simple or as complicated as you want to with how you make the third phase but most of what you need is pretty easy to come by at the scrap yard.
 
#7
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

I use a Hitachi WJ200 variable-frequency drive (VFD) to run my 3-phase mill from single-phase 220V:

https://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2527-wj200-022sf.aspx

The installation and operation is pretty simple if you're just using the VFD to perform the power inversion and control the direction of the motor.

The major downside of this setup is that one VFD is required per machine, where as static or rotary phase convertors can power several devices.
 
#8
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

All the machines I have are 3 phase. I have a commercially made rotary phase convertor to run them all. Im not a big fan of the static types I have had too many fail. I have a spare rotary convertor too bad your not closer. The VFD are nice and they allow for speed adjustment as well
 
#9
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

while still working we bought 2 laguns cause we could`nt get b`ports....probably 20 years ago.... we rebuilt each twice because of variable speed parts wore out in the powerhead.Our b`ports never even burped....
From expierience......Lagun mills are alot more troublesome than it`s model Bridgeport.
bill larson
 
#10
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

I started off in the tool & die business running a lagun manual. That machine was responsible for more chip burn marks on my arms then I can remember. It was always good to me, and still think of it as "mine" every time I walk by it on the shop floor.

If its in good shape and the price is right, I wouldn't pass it up. Although there is something to be said for bridgports.
 
#11
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike308bell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im probly going to just because im getting it for less then half of what its worth. And this puts me one big step closer to my own gunsmithing shop. </div></div>Lagun and worth are relative comparisons. Although the Lagun was used rarely, was it run hard -- ever? Of the 3 different Laguns I've used, only the one which was not used for heavy cutting was still consistent and accurate. The 2 Laguns run hard were both repaired in-house with better than factory parts; and were still sloppy. A good Lagun can be a cost effective start; but if you are serious, plan on adding a CNC or Bridgeport later.

A note on the cost of power: 3 phase power is very efficient both in power/work and cost. You'll pay handsomely for standard 208 converted to 3 phase 208. Over a 2 year period, you'll spend less money renting a small industrial space with 480V panel. Especially once you hook up an air compresor.
 
#12
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

The biggest cuts this thing has made was probly 3/8 4flute Endmill roughing out slots for Novak style rear sights on 1911's. I'm serious when I say it has about 100 hours at the most. And Im getting it for less then $2000 and a few Saturdays work in the shop.

I know its not a Bridgeport, but to get going...its more then enough. My job's shop has 22 CNC's and couple manuals. If I need to make any thing big or huge cuts.... it wont be a problem. But for a gunsmith just getting his own stuff going.... cant beat it for the price.
 
#13
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike308bell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest cuts this thing has made was probly 3/8 4flute Endmill roughing out slots for Novak style rear sights on 1911's. I'm serious when I say it has about 100 hours at the most. And Im getting it for less then $2000 and a few Saturdays work in the shop.

I know its not a Bridgeport, but to get going...its more then enough. My job's shop has 22 CNC's and couple manuals. If I need to make any thing big or huge cuts.... it wont be a problem. But for a gunsmith just getting his own stuff going.... cant beat it for the price.
</div></div>

I think youre probably correct,If the machine is in good shape and you know its use history youre in a great position to make a purchase decision. As you stated youll never wear it out at home doing rifle stuff. Part availability and pricing should be considered however. I spoke with a friend yesterday he has the same lathe I do. He needed a change gear and a headstock gear it was over $1400 for the pair, he was stunned to say the least. I will be a bit more gentle with my lathe from now on.
 
#14
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

First make sure the equipment will run on the same voltage your shop has. If not you will be buying a new motor and just geta a single phase motor at that time. The choices for three phase power are change the motor to single phasee,utility provided three phase,if available will reqire a new service to the house. VFD, make sure to get one that is big enough for the largest motor you want to buy. Rotary phase converter, make sure to get one that is big enough for the largest motor you want to buy. And static converter that only provides 2/3 power for each machine. Please note that you can shop build a static or rotary phase converter. Good luck.
 
#15
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

I get these requests a lot (work for utility). We install a lot of 3 phase services to personal workshops in our service territory. Most of the shops prefer 3 phase, for air compressors, lathes, mills, etc. Even have some larger woodworker shops that have it. Most all of the farms have 3 phase, as their irrigation motors, grain dryers, and oil wells depend on it also.

Just check with your local utility. A lot of the cost depends if there is 3 phase nearby. If you are in a purely residential neighborhood, it most likely will be single phase only. That would not be a good candiate for 3 phase.
 
#17
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

I've run a Lagun FT-1 here for years on a static converter (PAM-300). I have a buddy who has several of the statics, they are cheap enough he just puts one on each machine. We are both way out in the sticks, and they have been trouble free, his for 25 years.

As to the Laguns, they are good stout machines. Mine has done a lot of work, and could use new leads crews, but I'm used to it and can work around it. I have run Bridgeports in similar condition, and would take the Lagun over them.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world where we can have everything just the way all the basement dwellers think we ought to have it. If you can get into that Lagun and you don't owe anything on it, go get it and get to running. You may not be one of the cool kids, but you'll be making money while they're making payments.
 
#18
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

You can make a rotary phase converter. It's not hard. There are ample diagrams on the internet on how to make them, but here is the principle:

Power 2 legs of a spare 3 phase motor, then briefly shoot voltage from one of the existing input voltage legs into the third leg of the idle motor. That'll get the motor spinning up to speed.

That idler motor spinning at speed (with a capacitor or two) will GENERATE 3 phases. Using a multi-meter, figure out the relative voltages between the 3 legs. Adjust the relative voltage with capacitors (all on-line).

Once you've got reasonably good leg-to-leg voltage, then you're ready to throw the 3-phase breaker and power up your machine.

It took me about a week of nights (8pm to 10pm) to get all my electrical stuff squared away. For anyone with patience, a brain and a multi-meter, I'd encourage you to give it a shot. 3 phase motors are dirt cheap. Capacitors out of surplus are cheap too. Nobody wants to fuddle with this stuff any more, so it goes cheap. Build your brain, build your own rotary PC.
 
#19
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

Take a look at American Rotary they have a great RPC for the coin. I have their 10hp model for my lathe and it is very easy to set up and runs quiet and smooth.
BTW they have deals going on right now on Ebay and their site.

R
 
#20
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a Hitachi WJ200 variable-frequency drive (VFD) to run my 3-phase mill from single-phase 220V:

https://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2527-wj200-022sf.aspx

The installation and operation is pretty simple if you're just using the VFD to perform the power inversion and control the direction of the motor.

The major downside of this setup is that one VFD is required per machine, where as static or rotary phase convertors can power several devices.
</div></div>

This is what I did. That exact model actually. I went overboard with an enclosure, disconnect, VFD cable that costs a fortune (like $8.00/ft), thermostat controlled enclosure fan/ filtered intake vent, and a line reactor I really didn't need.

My first choice, if you are serious about 3 phase power would likely be a Phase Perfect.

Plan on 3-4k on the small one, and then figure distribution, if you intend on running more than 1 machine. Expensive, but the cats ass so to speak.

My second choice for a manual mill would probably be the Frequency drive. IF that is you only machine to be run. You will have to re-wire the drum switch, and is really just a 24 V input once your done (doesn't actually switch the power to the motor like it is originally wired) so more shielded cable(relatively inexpensive, and you could probably get by without shielded), small gauge as there is no load there. You will loose the ability to run your coolant pump on your mill, but I rarely if ever use one on a manual mill.

I have to figure something out for my lathe, and while I could go the Freq. drive route, I would loose the ability to run the coolant pump, and requires rewiring your panel and switches. Also, finding a VFD rated for 5 hp or above with single phase input gets expensive, if you can find them. Otherwise you have to upsize the drive.

So, I am planning on going the Rotary phase converter for my lathe, and hopefully a surface grinder soon.

I personally would stay away from static's if you intend to run it much.

PM me for info if you have any questions or decide to go the VFD route.

Good Luck!
 
#21
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

For the OP

Wholesale Tool 800 237 4689 (Florida Store) has the Phase-a-matic PAM-300 static converters #3008-0015 for $123. Assuming your mill is from 1-3 hp this will do the trick. Wiring instructions come with it, I did my own, and don't know anything about wiring.

All that other stuff is cool as hell (and probably not doable for you right now), but the above will get you going now, and in reality you will probably never have to change it.
 
#22
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

RTO is certainly right in all regards, but just be aware that you'll loose about 1/3 your power by going with a static. That might not be a big deal for you, wanting to turn smaller end-mills. It is cheap, and is certainly fast.
 
#23
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

http://compare.ebay.com/like/380357345856?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
08_21_08_phasematic.jpg

This is what came mounted on the side of MY mill.
It is the cheapest worst thing you can get.... but it is good enough for gunsmithing.
phase-drawing1.gif

Well, the phase-o-matic is ALMOST the cheapest and worst.
One step worse is manual start.
Throw the 3 phase drum switch and temporarily hold down the start button.
These cheap 3 phase converters have very little start torque. Sometimes the machine just grunts and you have to start over.
But it is good enough for gunsmithing and it is dirt cheap.

I had another machine a Clausing 5914 that came from industrial Seattle where it ran on 440 3 phase. I had to covert it to 220 3 phase. That meant opening the box on the motor and reading the schematic inside the box. While I was upside down and working on that motor, I realized that if any of the phases were out of order, A, B, C, .. then the motor would reverse direction.
Anyway, I ran that 3 horse 3 phase motor off the converter on my 1.5 horse 3 phase mill. They had more starting torque if the other machine was already running. I never used them at the same time, so that did me no good.

I had to get 220 VAC single phase to where I was building the shop.
The wife and I are both electrical engineers [not technicians, so we should never be trusted with a screw driver, just the math]. So she bought new smaller circuit breakers and crowded them into the old panel in the house. They make half sized breakers so you can get more out of your old house.

I had to run some wire under ground. I had been through this before. Do not use ordinary Romex cable under ground. Moisture gets in. This can trip other GFI circuits when lightning strikes. Use wire rated for being under ground. They have it at the hardware store.
 
#24
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

The static phase converters don't do so well starting a load, like a chuck on a lathe. However, for a mill they work just fine. Like I said, no trouble for many years.
I don't know if it makes any difference, but I always run 10 gauge wire to my machines, and especially outlets where I know I'll be using something like an abrasive cutoff saw.
 
#26
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take a look at American Rotary they have a great RPC for the coin. I have their 10hp model for my lathe and it is very easy to set up and runs quiet and smooth.
BTW they have deals going on right now on Ebay and their site.

R </div></div>

I too went this route 5 years back. It's easy to set up, and comes with all you need instead of having to look all over for different parts. I have the 7.5 HP unit, and it even handles my 3 phase oven. Consider all the suggestions you've been offered, but do take a look at American Rotary.
 
#27
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike308bell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest cuts this thing has made was probly 3/8 4flute Endmill roughing out slots for Novak style rear sights on 1911's. I'm serious when I say it has about 100 hours at the most.
</div></div>
Sounds interesting.
Just a note on my experience with used Laguns:
If the Z axis has not moved much out of a small range of a few inches, I suggest manually cleaning and lubing the Z axis screw and ways. Lagun #2 we refurbed still has a jump/bump/rumble even after manual massaging of the Z axis ways, screw, and replaced nut.
 
#28
Re: Mill with 3 phase power?

one thing that might merit mentioning if you don't know anything
about electricity is if the mill you are looking at is 208 3ph
it will work with a 220-230 convertor without any modifications.
 
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