I am using a bushnell dmr shooting and getting pretty massive mirage issues at 90deg plus. Do the higher end optics ( looking at atac) cut the mirage better, or is it time to buck up?
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Rifle Scopes Mirage abatement
- Thread starter Forward543
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mirage is a physical phenomenon and is worse the higher the magnification, on either a cheap or expensive scope. Only way to lessen it is to keep turning down your magnification until it is tolerable.
High quality glass will let you study the mirage easier. Reading mirage can be a good tool for estimating wind speed at the target.
A number of scopes offer a cap to screw onto the objective which reduces the aperature opening. For example my Vortex Golden Eagle cap reduces to 15mm. I can tell you shooting this in Fclass that it reduces the visual mirage, enabling higher mag to see the small Xring better; and upon checking a number of folks report the same. Some have found camera attachments that fit their scope, and others simply improvise with something homemade. Nothing will eliminate the mirage, but every bit of help is welcomed.
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It seems like a pretty low-risk solution to try. $100-$150, 45 day money-back guarantee, full lifetime warranty. They sound like they are encouraging people to try their product and decide for themselves, and that's usually a good sign.
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Up in NoDak, mirage became unbearable at 25x through my new ATACR by 10am. Back it on down to 18x and it became a helluva lot easier.
I have one that slips over the ocular, and don't care for it. Restrictive eyebox with no apparant benefit to my eye.
Being as mirage is distorting the image before it enters the scope, there's nothing you can install on the scope (including replacing it with a different scope) that will mitigate mirage.
To decrease the distortion, wait until the ambient temperature drops.
To improve the ability to see through the mirage, dropping the magnification helps.
To decrease the distortion, wait until the ambient temperature drops.
To improve the ability to see through the mirage, dropping the magnification helps.
In my experience, yes to a degree. As has been said, magnification is the biggest thing. In heavy mirage, you have to back it down to abate it. But I have noticed a phenomenon that I'm not quite sure how to explain. I have two identical SB 5-25s, and a late-model, new-design Leupold Mk4 6.5-20 (the new one with the 34mm tube and locking turrets). If I set the Mk4 and either of the SBs to 20X on a mirage-free day, I can see a bit of an edge/advantage to the image quality of the SBs over the Mk4. It isn't much, but it is identifiable. However, when the mirage gets to the point where it starts to become difficult, I find I can see MORE of a difference in image quality between the two. The SBs seem to just be able to handle it better. I'm not quite sure why, but that has been my observation. Again, they have a "slight" edge in mirage-free conditions, but a more obvious edge when the mirage starts to act up.
I am not an optical engineer by any stretch of the imagination but I wonder if this is more about what our brain perceives rather than reality. What I mean is, does the Schmidt (or any other first tier scope) really "cut through" mirage better, or is it a matter of what our eye(s) perceive due to the higher quality of glass, greater depth of field and potentially wider field of view. The mirage is what it is, it is an atmospheric condition and not an optical characteristic so I don't see how any optic on its own could "cut" through mirage any better, that would be like saying my scope can see through clouds; however, take two scopes, one of lesser quality and one of higher quality and the image which is translated to our brain may tell us "this one does better than the other" when in fact it is more a matter of the one scope yielding a better image which is translated as handling the mirage better than the other, but the mirage is still there regardless of what scope is used. That being said, I wonder if certain multicoatings can assist in various atmospheric conditions, much like a UV filter can assist at higher altitudes in cutting out haze, or how a polarizer works to reduce glare and reflections. I am not stating any facts here, just postulating based on my limited knowledge of optics and atmospherics and would be curious to hear from others from an optical engineering background.
I think you hit the nail on the head here Bill. You may not be an optical engineer but your keen interest, perception and experience with a wide range of different scopes makes you an "layman optical expert" I think
. If a magic bullet actually existed that would mitigate the effects of mirage in a significant way, the world would certainly beat a path to that door!The mirage shimmer is the physical movement of air. The dust and moisture make it more prominent. With the proliferation of moderators the heat haze of them from rapid shots is the same thing, just very close.
The very best coatings can help see through and cope, but doesn't change the air flow going on. Drop the magnification and just like it doesn't show shooters tremble it shows less of the mirage; just providing less information not stopping it actually happening.
How to manage it is not easy. There are formulas to try and cater for it. Believe in your calculations and adjust accordingly. Be ready to see and make corrections with every change. Build up experience and your calls will get better. Those who do and practice regularly seems to make better calls more regularly.
Anyhow, I don't think there is a bolt on fix, and best glass does seem to do a better job to control the worst.
Forgot to say. Shoot early morning when its still and no haze. Then shoot the same day when its bad. Nothing has changed bar the conditions. Shoot too at different angles of the sun across your scope and see how that goes too. Results can get interesting. Shooting needs to be beyond point blank as the effect only marked at longer ranges.
The very best coatings can help see through and cope, but doesn't change the air flow going on. Drop the magnification and just like it doesn't show shooters tremble it shows less of the mirage; just providing less information not stopping it actually happening.
How to manage it is not easy. There are formulas to try and cater for it. Believe in your calculations and adjust accordingly. Be ready to see and make corrections with every change. Build up experience and your calls will get better. Those who do and practice regularly seems to make better calls more regularly.
Anyhow, I don't think there is a bolt on fix, and best glass does seem to do a better job to control the worst.
Forgot to say. Shoot early morning when its still and no haze. Then shoot the same day when its bad. Nothing has changed bar the conditions. Shoot too at different angles of the sun across your scope and see how that goes too. Results can get interesting. Shooting needs to be beyond point blank as the effect only marked at longer ranges.
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I agree with everything in your post, including wondering about the same things you are wondering. I didn't mean to imply that any scope can "see through" mirage (nor did I). I was trying to show that the scope with the better image quality in no-mirage conditions, also has better image quality when the mirage IS there. However, the difference in image quality seems to be more obvious when the mirage IS present. With no mirage and both scopes set to 20X (max for the Leupold, so comparison is same), the edge goes to the SB, but not that much of a difference. Crank up the mirage and it's more apparent. Your explanations are exactly the same things I suspect as probably being at play. However, the perception is still as I described.
Many, including myself, will disagree with your assessment. My personal experience and that of other paper target shooters is that reduced aperature caps help reduce the perceived mirage. I've tested this on several occasions, and now leave the cap on permanently due to the clear improvement. Same principle as adjusting fstop on a camera.
I learned a while back that "testing" scopes under ideal conditions does not give the whole story as many scopes appear to perform at a similar level (at least to our eyes which have an amazing ability to adapt to different situations), it is when conditions are stressed like you mention with high mirage or low light, etc. that the chaff begins to separate from the wheat.
I hope to hear from Jon A regarding his ARD's and how they help with mirage.
Yeah, there's nothing like reviving an old thread. However there have been some advancements since that thread was started almost a lustrum hence.
We have heard about backing off on magnification, but now there's better. For the last 2 years, I have been using a riflescope that features Super-ED glass elements, the March-X 10-60X56 HM, in F-class competition. (Boo, hiss, get away with that crap shooting.) I used a March-X 5-50X56 for 6+ years and with its ED glass, I was able to stay at 40X regardless of conditions shooting 600 and 1000 yard F-class year round in South Texas and around the continent. When I started using the 10-60X56 HM, I noticed that I could crank it up to 50X and leave it there, regardless of conditions, year round. This represented a 25% increase in riflescope performance.
All March scopes except the 24mm objectives have ED glass. Some March scopes now have Super-ED glass (high fluorite crystal content) and to my eye this helps retard the IQ degradation cause by mirage. Currently March is the only riflescope brand that uses Super ED glass elements and that's only i a few riflescopes. They call this the High Master Lens system; I call it astonishing; 50X year-round in South Texas. Trust me, I see the mirage, but I also see the target and the scoring rings.
There are just a few March SFP scopes with Super-ED; a pair of fixed power and the March-X 10-60X56 HM. There are some FFP scopes with Super ED; the two Genesis model (6-60X56 and 4-40X52) and the March-FX 5-42X56 HM as well as the March-FX 4.5-28X52 HM.
When the mirage shows up, lesser optics, get their magnification reduced while my March-X 10-60X56 HM stays at 50X all the time.
We have heard about backing off on magnification, but now there's better. For the last 2 years, I have been using a riflescope that features Super-ED glass elements, the March-X 10-60X56 HM, in F-class competition. (Boo, hiss, get away with that crap shooting.) I used a March-X 5-50X56 for 6+ years and with its ED glass, I was able to stay at 40X regardless of conditions shooting 600 and 1000 yard F-class year round in South Texas and around the continent. When I started using the 10-60X56 HM, I noticed that I could crank it up to 50X and leave it there, regardless of conditions, year round. This represented a 25% increase in riflescope performance.
All March scopes except the 24mm objectives have ED glass. Some March scopes now have Super-ED glass (high fluorite crystal content) and to my eye this helps retard the IQ degradation cause by mirage. Currently March is the only riflescope brand that uses Super ED glass elements and that's only i a few riflescopes. They call this the High Master Lens system; I call it astonishing; 50X year-round in South Texas. Trust me, I see the mirage, but I also see the target and the scoring rings.
There are just a few March SFP scopes with Super-ED; a pair of fixed power and the March-X 10-60X56 HM. There are some FFP scopes with Super ED; the two Genesis model (6-60X56 and 4-40X52) and the March-FX 5-42X56 HM as well as the March-FX 4.5-28X52 HM.
When the mirage shows up, lesser optics, get their magnification reduced while my March-X 10-60X56 HM stays at 50X all the time.
I have various scopes but even my ZCOs at 27x gets blurry with the suppressor after 20 rds. I have an Underground Precision highest heat cover. Just wondering about an ARD increasing the blur or not. It did it without it also fyi. Thanks
An ARD will do absolutely nothing to the image in your scope except perhaps darken it a little bit. It will not change the depth of field or do much of anything else. Its purpose is to hide any reflection from your objective lens.
The reason I jumped into this thread is that I noticed it was from 2017 and at that time there was very little that could be done for dealing with mirage beyond winding down the magnification. I had been shooting F-Class with my March-X 5-50X56 for a few years already and I had started realizing that other shooters on the line were lowering the magnification on their scopes when the mirage was roaming, but I was staying at 40X. It took me a while to put 2 and 2 together and come up with an answer that was close to 4. In those days, March was virtually the only riflescope maker to use ED glass in their products. They were the pioneers in that respect, as they first started using ED glass almost 14 years ago.
I started discussing that on Accurate Shooter and we went through all the guffaws. In 2019, March introduced a riflescope with Super-ED glass, and I had to get me one of those. After I used it in a few matches, I cranked it up to 50X and I have never lowered the magnification.
Your ZCO probably does not have ED glass and I know that currently the only riflescope maker using Super-ED glass with the high fluorite crystal content is Deon, the makers of March scope.
I do not know how a March with Super-ED glass would deal with the suppressor-generated heat waves; ED and Super-ED glass are not immune to mirage and heat waves, but they do retard the IQ degradation due to that.
This stuff was not available or known in 2017, at the time of the last post here.
There are confusing items in that video, and some that are pretty vague.
The aperture reduction disks come with holes with specific diameters. The more common ones have a hole that cuts out half the incoming light. For a 56mm objective, a 39.6, call it 40mm hole will provide 50%of the incoming light. In photographic terms, doubling or halving the light represents one F-stop.
Reducing the incoming light will increase the DOF. This has the effect of increasing the amount of mirage that you see in your scope. It also makes the focus point of the target more forgiving. I don't think it really affects the parallax-induced error. Also in bright sunlight most people may not even detect the reduction of light due to the presence of the disk; their eye will easily compensate. I have one readily available all the time when I'm on the line, but I rarely use it preferring to use my spotting scope with it very wide field of view to discern and try to interpret what the mirage is telling me.
Stuffing pipe insulation in the sunshade is only going to scratch the lens; that insulation is rough, and I don't like rubbing that kind of stuff on my lenses. I would suggest you refrain from doing that.
I keep my sunshade on my riflescopes virtually all the time. It protects the front lens and when I happen to be shooting very close to the Sun, it helps with the image a great deal. When I do put on the aperture disk, it goes at the end of the sunshade. I would hate to rub this disk directly on my objective lens when I'm trying to put it on or take it off while in position.
The modifier disk does not magically order the light rays, it simply reduces the size of the front aperture and increases the depth of field.
A good feature of these modifier disks with the corresponding increase in depth of field, is that it makes the side focus less critical in a fast-paced environment. I have shot a PRS match with targets from about 300 yards all the way to 1000 yards. I put the modifier disk on my Mach-4.5-28X52, set the side focus to about 500 yards and never touched it all day as all targets were in focus. When it gets darker, you can take it off in a few seconds and use the full light gathering performance from your optics.
So you were dropped on your head as a child?
I presented this without comment because I have no data. It is not my video.
Having said that, I have made foam pieces for a couple of my scopes to test for myself.
Anyone who could not figuire out how to do this, without having to have the foam against their glass, should not be shooting firearms.
Perhaps golf…….
Sorry to pick on you from 5yrs ago... That's really not my Intent...this topic is filling my head right now, so I'm going through; reading what everyone has to say on the matter... And while you made some very valid points... Your point that an optic, specifically a higher tier optic; cannot compensate for atmospheric conditions, better than any other...<in a nutshell< .... You're also stated, at the same time; that you are wondered what effect that coatings may have... I like the way your mind was so open to the phenomenon..stating one seamingly rigid belief, while presenting a rather opposing view for all to see, and study on... That shows a true intellectual...
Though, to both argue & caveat your original 5yr old thought process....
I would.wholeheartedly believe that some certain higher tier scopes would undeniably do better –to better handle "uncontrollable" atmospheric / environmental conditions; than some lower tier scopes....
Just as some glass will help you see "through" the darkness...or to stumble your way through time of limited visibility; better than the other lowly scope... I would consider lack of light to be an environmental...
They would do this, not only through Superior coatings...but while utilizing a synergy of design features...
I believe it would be the same with mirage...I believe it IS the same with mirage. ....to a point.
Just in the same way, that are 7 series BMW; may handle rainy conditions –better than a Kia.
Wth? How? Physics is physics, and a tire begins to hydroplane @ 50mph... Though conditions may exist after 35.... It doesn't matter what your hood ornament says, right?
Well... It was an ambiguous statement... I just presented the premise that BMWs were safer in a rainstorm and then a Kia... And there's a lot to that... Hydroplaning may not factor into that general statement.
But there are a lot of supporting facts to support that claim... It may be BMWs Superior traction control system..., Or a nano coating that makes the water beat off the windows better, it might be better suspension, or it might be that the BMW came from the factory with better tires..., Or it could even be the operator of that BMW... Heck, they're driving a $150,000 car...and they must be doing something right....they might have even had formal training in the past...of the high-stakes driving type...
OR, it might just be that the culmative age of BMW drivers is older...with more experience... OR FINALLY, maybe it's just a more refined machine, that is easier to drive, easier to handle, with a clearer windshield. ...a synergy of high-qualities coming together...
So no, a $2,000 rifle scope won't make mirage any better...it won't lessen it to any degree... But it makes it so that our brain thinks it's seeing something different... because it is .... It is seeing less than ideal conditions, through an ideal implement...rather than less than ideal condition –through a less than ideal implement...creating an unfavorable circumstance.
There's alot that goes into it... Better glass does help... There's almost no way that it couldn't help. The coatings DEFINITELY help... Finally, a trained eye, or rather; a conditioned cortex HELPS... Just the way that you have been conditioned in to being able to ignore certain sounds, or tune in to certain sounds; amongst much noise.... That cortex, is also conditioned, over time... To do, more or less; the same exact thing. But like if anything else, having the right tools help...simple because it doesn't hurt, if nothing else.........
Thank You for giving me a moment of your time.
Your comment was smart & insightful, and really struck a cord... Thank you...
Might the concept of a peep sight which reduces the picture that you have to deal with relative to the front post of rifle be similar to reducing the field of view of some of these attachments. Might maybe the possible fact that there is less information being delivered to your brain make it easier for your brain to handle that information when all you’re really trying to resolve is a small part of it i.e. the target. I know nothing but I thought introducing how valuable the Peepsight was might be an interesting aside.
Here we are some years later and still don't have a definite answer for this phenomena, my guess is that manufacturers use a "secret sauce" to allow their optics to perform better in multiple situations and sharing what might assist in these situations may give some of that away. Either that or the optical engineers don't even know, other than "use good glass" because using better optics will almost always increase the brains pleasure center as we look through the scope/bino. I am really no closer to an answer on this but I am still standing by my theory that better glass has the ability to provide better detail and contrast which is critical during mirage and other atmospheric conditions.
It’s one of those things that eludes me, I always like to learn and hoping someone has an explanation based on reality vs just theory.
March scopes (not sure if you're familiar with them) recently posted a news item at their website in which they explain why some of their scopes actually reduce the shimmer, what we call the mirage, due to their use of Super-ED glass. They were the first to use ED glass in their products 14 years ago and they are the only ones using Super-ED glass in a few of their offerings.
Their March-X 10-60X56HM is the the one that displays this shimmer protection the most.
Are ya gonna get one????
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Sound the Charge.
DO IT.
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DO IT..
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.....
Or are ya chicken?
Boooouk, bok bok bok bok booooouuuk!
Do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it...
.....then post pics.
Sound the Charge.
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