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MOA of the Vietnam era rifles?
- Thread starter JGorski
- Start date
From Winchester's site: "the rifle was blazing a smoking trail to victory at target ranges all across America. It was there that U.S. military marksmen learned of the extraordinary capabilities of the Model 70 at long ranges. Many of the 1000-yard rifle matches of the era were won by outstanding marksmen behind a Model 70." This would suggest that it was at least a 1 MOA rifle.
Here's an interesting article on them... The Military Model 70
Here's an interesting article on them... The Military Model 70
The NRA, American Rifleman had an article a few years back about the Vietnam era sniper rifles, according to the article Carlos' rifle was a 2 MOA rifle. The M21s and M-40 were 1.5 MOA rifles on the average. Maintenance in the jungles was more of a problem then accuracy. Surprisingly the Army's M-21 spent less time in the maintenance shops then the Marine's M-40.
I went to sniper school and taught sniper schools using the M-21 and from what I've see the NRA Article was pretty accurate.
I've shot more then a few Model 70 target rifles, own two, one in 308 and one in 06. They shoot somewhat better then that but then I'm not dragging them through the jungle.
Jungles and rice paddy mud is hard on rifles. That silt will get into everything. The Springfield '03s make better sniper rifles in those conditions. You also want your rifles to be supplemented with irons.
I went to sniper school and taught sniper schools using the M-21 and from what I've see the NRA Article was pretty accurate.
I've shot more then a few Model 70 target rifles, own two, one in 308 and one in 06. They shoot somewhat better then that but then I'm not dragging them through the jungle.
Jungles and rice paddy mud is hard on rifles. That silt will get into everything. The Springfield '03s make better sniper rifles in those conditions. You also want your rifles to be supplemented with irons.
The requirement for testing and adopting the M40 was 2 MOA maximum, 5-round groups, fired from a fixture, using Remington Match grade ammo.
Vietnam-era M118 (7.62mm) and M72 (.30/06) ammunition had an accuracy specification of 3.5" mean radius at 600 yards (nine 10-shot groups for test). (about 9 inches e.s., or ~1.4 MOA)
(During the 1960s and 1970s, the mean radiuses of M118 and M72 actually averaged 2.4" (~1 MOA). In the 1980s and early 1990s they averaged 3" (~1.2 MOA), still within specification.)
One account from Vietnam:
M40, sandbagged, consistently held 12" circle at 500 yards (~2.3 MOA, and he felt this was good accuracy).
This was all found in "The One Round War", by Peter Senich.
Bottom line from what I have read, the Vietnam-era sniper rifles were holding about 1 1/2 - 2 MOA fired from a fixture, and about 2 MOA in the real world.
Vietnam-era M118 (7.62mm) and M72 (.30/06) ammunition had an accuracy specification of 3.5" mean radius at 600 yards (nine 10-shot groups for test). (about 9 inches e.s., or ~1.4 MOA)
(During the 1960s and 1970s, the mean radiuses of M118 and M72 actually averaged 2.4" (~1 MOA). In the 1980s and early 1990s they averaged 3" (~1.2 MOA), still within specification.)
One account from Vietnam:
M40, sandbagged, consistently held 12" circle at 500 yards (~2.3 MOA, and he felt this was good accuracy).
This was all found in "The One Round War", by Peter Senich.
Bottom line from what I have read, the Vietnam-era sniper rifles were holding about 1 1/2 - 2 MOA fired from a fixture, and about 2 MOA in the real world.
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It's amazing what those men accomplished with accuracy standards that most shooters would find horribly inadequate.
A rifle is a tool, and no rifle shoots absolutely true to POA at any time. There is some variance, and the canny operator knows how to accommodate it. A lot of what is accomplished includes the times when the decision was made not to shoot, knowing the rifle's limitations. I seriously doubt any operator simply makes the calc, lays in the crosshair, and trust to blind faith that the rifle will always do precisely as it's told. Its a question of splitting hairs, and sometimes the hair is too thin to begin with. Sometimes a treasured rifle, like a good old dog, needs to be brought back home unblooded, while one awaits a better day.
I'm not a Sniper, never was, and never will be; but I am a hunter. As a hunter, I see game some days, and some of those days I will take a shot, and some I won't. For me, the downside is having to track a wounded animal. For the Sniper, a similar outcome could cost them their life.
Worth considering...
Greg
I'm not a Sniper, never was, and never will be; but I am a hunter. As a hunter, I see game some days, and some of those days I will take a shot, and some I won't. For me, the downside is having to track a wounded animal. For the Sniper, a similar outcome could cost them their life.
Worth considering...
Greg
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All that being said, I feel pretty good about my self proclaimed sniper rifle 700SPSS, it has done .5moa or under.
M40A1 has your answer dead on. All the M70s I saw in country were box stock and of all the match conditioned M14s I ever encountered I never saw a consistant 1 minute or better rifle with M118. M40s with M72 or M118 about the same story I would surmise. (no personal experience with M40s). Nobody shot handloads that I know of and as has been stated the ammo was not spec'd at 1min.
A local UPS driver claims he was a sniper in Vietnam. He said 400yds was the farthest they ever shot. I never pressed it because everyone else I work with know jack about shit and even less about shooting.
That is highly probable. The average sniper shot in Vietnam was just a hair over 400 yards. Most of the country is jungle, many places you couldn't get near 400 yards.
Seems if he was BS'ing, he would have come up with some outrageous distance.
2MOA at 400yd equates to an 8" dispersal pattern. That's a mighty good shot under field combat conditions, and a reasonable goal.
I was kind of thinking the same thing but I have seen lots of pictures and there seemed to be plenty of open ground but I have never been there. Thanks for the info.
Add the environmental conditions and limitations to the equipment limitations makes you wonder what Hathcock would have done side by side with Chris Kyle in the target rich environment of Iraq.
I wasn't there either, but, like you, have seen pictures and have done some reading. There were some static hilltop positions that offered long range shots across valleys and rice paddies. I would imagine Agent Orange might have helped open things up a bit later on in the war as well. Otherwise, I suppose across rice paddies was about the longest shot that could be made on level ground. Anyone here with first-hand Nam experience to comment?
I was in '81-'85 and we were loaded with VN Veterans in the 1st Rgr BN at that time. I was quite surprised to hear the same thing as above, where shorter shots were the norm. The 1k shots were rare as hens teeth. But they were made, and more with bolt guns than with semi-auto rifles.
2 MOA to minute of body is what I heard from them.
The two guys I know who went through the Marine Corps Sniper course and made it into Grenada and shot there with M21's still said the M40 (A1 at that time) was more accurate. There were a lot of shots taken with the M21's and not that many hits. The ammo used was (as they called it) 'white box, match'.
2 MOA to minute of body is what I heard from them.
The two guys I know who went through the Marine Corps Sniper course and made it into Grenada and shot there with M21's still said the M40 (A1 at that time) was more accurate. There were a lot of shots taken with the M21's and not that many hits. The ammo used was (as they called it) 'white box, match'.
MOA of VN Sniper Rifle
I was there in 1966-67 as a Marine Sniper with the Mod. 70. The terrain was very open in places other than Rice Paddies. I dont know who told about the 400 yd. shooting but as a former 3rd. Marine Sniper i can tell you that we zeroed in at 500 yds. You would hold low for anything close to insure a center mass hit. The Mod. 70 was good out past 1000 yds. if need be. This rifle was very effective with the LCM rounds we were issued. The 8x Unertl was very effective also. This combo is so good in my opion that i presently own one and it shoots every bit as good as the one i was issued. The only thing that was hard to get use to was pulling the scope back into battery after each shot. Something that could easily be forgotten in the heat of battle causing a sure miss at any range. These scopes came with a return to battery spring but they were removed by MTU personnel. If you look in the book "THE ONE ROUND WAR" you will see all of the rifles with the spring removed. Hope this helps in some small way to those interested. Oh one more thing, you will see my picture in the book also. On the firing line getting a final zero before heading to the "ROCKPILE". ..... SEMPER FI! ....LARRY
I was there in 1966-67 as a Marine Sniper with the Mod. 70. The terrain was very open in places other than Rice Paddies. I dont know who told about the 400 yd. shooting but as a former 3rd. Marine Sniper i can tell you that we zeroed in at 500 yds. You would hold low for anything close to insure a center mass hit. The Mod. 70 was good out past 1000 yds. if need be. This rifle was very effective with the LCM rounds we were issued. The 8x Unertl was very effective also. This combo is so good in my opion that i presently own one and it shoots every bit as good as the one i was issued. The only thing that was hard to get use to was pulling the scope back into battery after each shot. Something that could easily be forgotten in the heat of battle causing a sure miss at any range. These scopes came with a return to battery spring but they were removed by MTU personnel. If you look in the book "THE ONE ROUND WAR" you will see all of the rifles with the spring removed. Hope this helps in some small way to those interested. Oh one more thing, you will see my picture in the book also. On the firing line getting a final zero before heading to the "ROCKPILE". ..... SEMPER FI! ....LARRY
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Thanks for you reply and service Mr Larry, I to love the mod 70, mine is a bone stock target in a sporter stock, I had a 15X Unertl ultra varmint, it was awkward in the tree stand so I have an old fixed 10X leupold on it now,mine is a sub moa gun with the fed 168 gr match ammo. I like the ones TBA builds as well . very best
G
Guest
Guest
Like any/all things Military, it depended on the A/O you worked. There were places in S.E. Asia where 50 yds was long, and others were you were tasked to reach across two or three valleys. Hunting up in cave land (NVA arty) you had shots that were best done via a 4 duce or better. Some of the longest shots (I know of) were via spotting rds, from a 106 R/R.
The NM M14's an XM21s were/are like any other system, totally dependent upon the shooters ability to get within "His" min/max range. Ammo was catch as catch can, but there were certain lots of 67 TW ball that ran circles around 173 gr S/B.
You always hear about all the long ones made, but what about all that did not connect?
Best I recall a issued NM M14 or XM21, would do 1.5 - 2.0 moa to 800 yds under most every day field conditions, given a good shooter, that was not having to pick and choose his bullet path. Shooting semi long in trees is totally different than open terrain.
The NM M14's an XM21s were/are like any other system, totally dependent upon the shooters ability to get within "His" min/max range. Ammo was catch as catch can, but there were certain lots of 67 TW ball that ran circles around 173 gr S/B.
You always hear about all the long ones made, but what about all that did not connect?
Best I recall a issued NM M14 or XM21, would do 1.5 - 2.0 moa to 800 yds under most every day field conditions, given a good shooter, that was not having to pick and choose his bullet path. Shooting semi long in trees is totally different than open terrain.
All I have EVER heard is the phrase "Snipers expended 1.3 rounds per enemy casualty". Is that true, or isn't it? Hhhhmmmm.
Not to jump in the middle here, I heard it was 1.7 rounds. But, you gotta think, even if the ratio went as high as 2.7 or even 10, that's so much more incredibly effective than the WWII rate of 6000, or Viet Nam at the rate of 30,000.
One has to consider though the guys firing 30k also keep the enemy 'entertained' while the '1.7 man' does his work. Oftentimes the very necessary bulk of the military work is overlooked while those who search for glory gain the headlines.
One has to consider though the guys firing 30k also keep the enemy 'entertained' while the '1.7 man' does his work. Oftentimes the very necessary bulk of the military work is overlooked while those who search for glory gain the headlines.
Feedback and turn-in ammo from the guys who went out. The only real number that can TRULY be accounted for on paper is the amount of match ammo that was issued to the units. It's pretty safe to say even including practice ammo, it didn't even make a percentage point vs. 7.62 linked or 5.56 by the can.
G
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Guest
I believe that number is very low. The order of battle quotes it upwards of 350K expended per KIA. That includes all ammo fired.
Propaganda, be it numbers or whatever, is to instill confidence in your side, while fear on the other. Truth is out the window before the shooting starts, and after it stops. The gap in between was/is even questionable in some AAR's.
For snipers, I can see how the number of rounds expended was on the record, but the number of hits reported was often on the honor system.
I hadn't heard the 1.7 figure before. Maybe that's the Army number :duck:
(Speaking of :duck:, where the heck are the smilies on this forum?)
I hadn't heard the 1.7 figure before. Maybe that's the Army number :duck:
(Speaking of :duck:, where the heck are the smilies on this forum?)
Peter Senich wrote several sniper books dealing with the Vietnam War. He has several accounts of different units dealing with, distances, number of shots, hits & misses. All one would have to do is go through the books, looking at several unit, Number of Shots, Number of 1 vs 2 or more hits. You can also get an idea of the distances involved (that's how I came across the "just north of 400 yards" info I posted earlier.
But, lets not loose sight of the fact that, though sniping is a valuable tool, snipers don't win wars, its the infantry companies on the ground and total combined arms assets.
But, lets not loose sight of the fact that, though sniping is a valuable tool, snipers don't win wars, its the infantry companies on the ground and total combined arms assets.
G
Guest
Guest
Who used the honor system? To get booked it had to be confirmed, and one of the reasons many were not.
Even Carlos admitted he missed,... and missed a lot, words from his own mouth.
Some guys doing drop off never missed once, but when your target is within 25-400yds, even with a POS 16 and 4X glass, is that the norm, I think not. 400 yds is supposed to be well within the basic quals of a std boot using a rack gun and irons.
Remember its not the distance that is the task, it is completing the task and returning w/o a following or leaking. It matters little if the shot is 20 yds or 2000, a completed task is a completed task. Long shots do not win wars, completed task's within the mission time line, do. That is one reason Field-Craft and the ability to think on your feet is stressed so much more than the ability to shoot.
The C/O of the AMU made a comment here long ago, think it went like this. "I can train a monkey to shoot, the rest is a little harder" Ask him, he is still here.
Kraig-
I looked on Amazon.com for Peter Senich books and there were several good ones, including two on Vietnam: "The One Round War - USMC Scout Snipers in Vietnam" and "The Long Range War: Sniping in Vietnam". Both look good, but are each expensive ($45). Do you recommend one over the other? Thanks...
In my opinion the Long Range War is the best, I also like his "Limited War Sniping" and the "Pictorial History of US Sniping".
Three friends of mine are mentioned in his books, Wayne Young who when over with the Army Marksmanship Unit to start sniper programs, Young was the armor for the AMU. As was Shelly Lamb. Young was the one who talked me into getting my M1A, he also got me lined up to attend the AMU Sniper School.
Vergil Umpenhour was the OIC of the Americal Sniper Program & School. He joined the AK NG after getting out of the army spending most of his time in the 1st Scout Area, (out of Nome). He was also a member of my rifle team when I was running the AK NG marksmanship unit. He offers some good in sight in "The Long Rang War" plus was a big help to me when I was getting the AK NG Sniper Program and school started.
Another good source for information is the book, (forgot the exact name) but close to THE ARMY MARKSMANSHIP UNIT, THE FIRST 50 YEARS.
Unrelated, Senich has a couple other good books of interest, one on then German Sniper and one on the British Sniper.
Lot has been said about Vietnam Sniping, Hits, Misses, Ranges and such, but as I said earlier, its a whole new ball game, MOA be damned, groups have a tendency to open up when you're facing the Elephant in Indian Country.
I've seen guys with fancy Model 70 target rifles muff shots at close range and I've seen some outstanding, beyond belief results by some young paratroopers using nothing but iron sights on M16a1s.
Three friends of mine are mentioned in his books, Wayne Young who when over with the Army Marksmanship Unit to start sniper programs, Young was the armor for the AMU. As was Shelly Lamb. Young was the one who talked me into getting my M1A, he also got me lined up to attend the AMU Sniper School.
Vergil Umpenhour was the OIC of the Americal Sniper Program & School. He joined the AK NG after getting out of the army spending most of his time in the 1st Scout Area, (out of Nome). He was also a member of my rifle team when I was running the AK NG marksmanship unit. He offers some good in sight in "The Long Rang War" plus was a big help to me when I was getting the AK NG Sniper Program and school started.
Another good source for information is the book, (forgot the exact name) but close to THE ARMY MARKSMANSHIP UNIT, THE FIRST 50 YEARS.
Unrelated, Senich has a couple other good books of interest, one on then German Sniper and one on the British Sniper.
Lot has been said about Vietnam Sniping, Hits, Misses, Ranges and such, but as I said earlier, its a whole new ball game, MOA be damned, groups have a tendency to open up when you're facing the Elephant in Indian Country.
I've seen guys with fancy Model 70 target rifles muff shots at close range and I've seen some outstanding, beyond belief results by some young paratroopers using nothing but iron sights on M16a1s.
Exactly...in order for it to get booked, or "confirmed". But as I understand it, the figure is one hit (i.e. casualty/probable kill/confirmed kill) for 1.3 rounds expended. There were many more hits (whether kills or not) than comfirmed kills. Any unconfirmed hits reported were on the honor system. No?
Kraig, were you acquainted with LTC Gyzen?
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G
Guest
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Called probables during debrief, but those always required a longer sit, as you had to give full details. FNG's were all about them until they learned to shut up, as it cut beer and hooch time.
LOL! That sounds right. NEVER VOLUNTEER FOR ANYTHING!
I "met" him (on line) when I bought his notated copy of the first draft of the Marine Corps Sniping Manual (FMFM 1-B(Proposed), 2-68).
He drafted the first Army Sniper Manual in 1965, Distinguished, OIC U.S. Army Rifle Group, retired as LTC after 24 years in service (sniper/MTU WWll, Korea, VN). I guess that would mean he was out by 1970 or so.
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The first Army Sniper Manuel I used was FM 23-5, '54 or 55 Version. It was combined with the M1 manual back then, I have a copy on my other laptop which cratered. If I can ever get it to boot up again, I'll down load it on this computer.
I had one back in the late 70s and throughout the 80s I used instructing sniper schools when we still used the M1C/Ds.
That manual is still valid today if one is old school and wants to do it with out all the fancy electronic gadgets we have now.
I had one back in the late 70s and throughout the 80s I used instructing sniper schools when we still used the M1C/Ds.
That manual is still valid today if one is old school and wants to do it with out all the fancy electronic gadgets we have now.
That is probably quite accurate. Most sniper engagements during the Vietnam war and WW2/Korea were well under 600 yds. Hathcocks 1k+ shots were noteworthy because they were the exception, not the rule.
I hang out with Chuck Mawhinney and Mark Limpic a lot, they will tell you the actual hit ratio is way less than 1:1, so the 1.3/1.7 RPK is way off.
As for range, most of their shots were inside about 400 m, but there was a lot of open space especially around the firebases.
Charlie learned how close they could get and minimally risk exposing themselves, however every now and then Ol' Charlie got a surprise, Look up the story of US Marine Steve Suttles and the longest 7.62 shot in the Nam.
Marty
Badger Ordnance
As for range, most of their shots were inside about 400 m, but there was a lot of open space especially around the firebases.
Charlie learned how close they could get and minimally risk exposing themselves, however every now and then Ol' Charlie got a surprise, Look up the story of US Marine Steve Suttles and the longest 7.62 shot in the Nam.
Marty
Badger Ordnance
Interesting thread. I have an M70 US with USMC 8X Unertl. It typically gives about 1.5 MOA five shot groups with US match ammo, or more precisely, it puts 3 or 4 of the 5 sub-MOA and 1 or 2 of the shots make the five shot group 1.5-2 MOA.
I have and early Springfield M1A, 4 digit serial number, with 1969 military match barrel. It is an attempt to replica an M21. It has a later Art scope but I bought an Art 1 for it. Also got an early mount that allows use of an M1C mount and scope but have not tried either of those more period correct scopes. It to is about an 1.5 MOA rifle.
I have not fired my M40 but I do have a Remington PS, Walnut stock, very close to M40 and it is right at 1 MOA with match ammo and 1.25 is probably closer to average with US match if I do everything right.
Sub-MOA rifles are not common and were even less common in the 1960's and before, especially semi-autos. Reading the American Rifleman tests over the last 30 years, very few rifles average sub-MOA. The new sniper adapted by the military tested at 0.8 with carefully crafted handloads. The rifles tested gave 0.8 for the 308 and 300 Win Mag(WM adapted), 0.6 for the 338 LM, and 2.5 for the 50 cal.. The 338LM looked like a clear winner to me, not just accuracy wise but having significantly longer effective range, but the cost of ammo apparently dictated the 300 WM get the thumbs up.
I have a picture of myself holding the M70 used by Carlos. Major Land had right of first refusal but reportidly he waited too long and a friend of Carlos's, who is also my friend, got the rifle. I am aware that the Major reported it to be a 2 MOA rifle at best and quite worn. The rifle I held had very strong rifling and a perfect crown. I have a hunch it was better than 2 MOA but who can say for sure. Looks like I can only post 11 pictures so I have maxed out.
Some may opine that Carlos had superior equiptment to the Cobra, and some of the other snipers he countersnipered, like the lady sniper he took out. The PUs they were using are quite capable and I have fired dozens of sub inch, 5 shot groups at 100 yds with good ammo. Lots of us PU shooters do it pretty frequently but 1.5-2 MOA is easy with most PUs with just OK ammo. Carlos knew he had a respectable opponet and said in the interview he was just a tiny bit quicker on the trigger or he would have been the looser. The scope had to be lined up to hit Carlos or the bullet would not have passed through the scope.
Great thread. Thanks to all who contributed.
I have and early Springfield M1A, 4 digit serial number, with 1969 military match barrel. It is an attempt to replica an M21. It has a later Art scope but I bought an Art 1 for it. Also got an early mount that allows use of an M1C mount and scope but have not tried either of those more period correct scopes. It to is about an 1.5 MOA rifle.
I have not fired my M40 but I do have a Remington PS, Walnut stock, very close to M40 and it is right at 1 MOA with match ammo and 1.25 is probably closer to average with US match if I do everything right.
Sub-MOA rifles are not common and were even less common in the 1960's and before, especially semi-autos. Reading the American Rifleman tests over the last 30 years, very few rifles average sub-MOA. The new sniper adapted by the military tested at 0.8 with carefully crafted handloads. The rifles tested gave 0.8 for the 308 and 300 Win Mag(WM adapted), 0.6 for the 338 LM, and 2.5 for the 50 cal.. The 338LM looked like a clear winner to me, not just accuracy wise but having significantly longer effective range, but the cost of ammo apparently dictated the 300 WM get the thumbs up.
I have a picture of myself holding the M70 used by Carlos. Major Land had right of first refusal but reportidly he waited too long and a friend of Carlos's, who is also my friend, got the rifle. I am aware that the Major reported it to be a 2 MOA rifle at best and quite worn. The rifle I held had very strong rifling and a perfect crown. I have a hunch it was better than 2 MOA but who can say for sure. Looks like I can only post 11 pictures so I have maxed out.
Some may opine that Carlos had superior equiptment to the Cobra, and some of the other snipers he countersnipered, like the lady sniper he took out. The PUs they were using are quite capable and I have fired dozens of sub inch, 5 shot groups at 100 yds with good ammo. Lots of us PU shooters do it pretty frequently but 1.5-2 MOA is easy with most PUs with just OK ammo. Carlos knew he had a respectable opponet and said in the interview he was just a tiny bit quicker on the trigger or he would have been the looser. The scope had to be lined up to hit Carlos or the bullet would not have passed through the scope.
Great thread. Thanks to all who contributed.
Attachments
Hi everyone,
Mike sent me the picture of he & Hathcock's Model 70, so am posting on his behalf
Thanks mate, really something special & glad you shared it with us.
Mike sent me the picture of he & Hathcock's Model 70, so am posting on his behalf
Thanks mate, really something special & glad you shared it with us.
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Xm-21
I had the privilege of being trained at the 1st team (1st. air Cav. Div.) snipers school in 1970 at Bien Hoa Vietnam. The training NCO`s Had Distinguished rifleman Badges, several were members of the President`s 100. A specially trained armor from Ft. Benning, Ga completed their team. After a few days of orientation & evaluation, the half or so of us remaining, were issued the new XM-21 Sniper rifle, not to be confused with the National Match 14 or the later M21. In 1970 the use of Snipers in warfare was strictly forbidden by the Geneva Convention. For that reason alone, the members of any Army sniper team’s effect on the war was not publicize. The XM21 was truly an outstanding weapon. Issued with a special 3x9 Redfield scope, an early version Starlight scope & could be equipped with a subsonic wave length controller designed to mask & hide the shooters position. The new XM21s were often placed in firing cradles & electorally fired to remove all droughts of accuracy. Nor would our NCO`s hesitate to test fire your weapon, while explaining the meaning of Their motto one shot one kill. All sight adjustment was made using a spotting scope while firing at steel targets between 300 & 900 meters.) My Esperance operating in the central high lands of Vietnam with Air cav. recon units & 75 ranger teams was most shots were fast & limited to more moderate ranges. The units working in the southern delta regions were practicing their reach out and touch you skills. Remember, dead men tell no tales, meaning they can`t give you any information about troop strength & movement or plans they may have over heard. dead men are just left behind, but a wounded soldier must be carried & cared for most likely slowing down there unit, giving you a chance to call in air support or artillery. Really few commanders are impressed by a sniper team taking out one or even two enemy soldiers. But wounding one to help take out there unit is a very good thing. Should you want to meet your Battalion Commander, bring in a wounded prisoner.
I had the privilege of being trained at the 1st team (1st. air Cav. Div.) snipers school in 1970 at Bien Hoa Vietnam. The training NCO`s Had Distinguished rifleman Badges, several were members of the President`s 100. A specially trained armor from Ft. Benning, Ga completed their team. After a few days of orientation & evaluation, the half or so of us remaining, were issued the new XM-21 Sniper rifle, not to be confused with the National Match 14 or the later M21. In 1970 the use of Snipers in warfare was strictly forbidden by the Geneva Convention. For that reason alone, the members of any Army sniper team’s effect on the war was not publicize. The XM21 was truly an outstanding weapon. Issued with a special 3x9 Redfield scope, an early version Starlight scope & could be equipped with a subsonic wave length controller designed to mask & hide the shooters position. The new XM21s were often placed in firing cradles & electorally fired to remove all droughts of accuracy. Nor would our NCO`s hesitate to test fire your weapon, while explaining the meaning of Their motto one shot one kill. All sight adjustment was made using a spotting scope while firing at steel targets between 300 & 900 meters.) My Esperance operating in the central high lands of Vietnam with Air cav. recon units & 75 ranger teams was most shots were fast & limited to more moderate ranges. The units working in the southern delta regions were practicing their reach out and touch you skills. Remember, dead men tell no tales, meaning they can`t give you any information about troop strength & movement or plans they may have over heard. dead men are just left behind, but a wounded soldier must be carried & cared for most likely slowing down there unit, giving you a chance to call in air support or artillery. Really few commanders are impressed by a sniper team taking out one or even two enemy soldiers. But wounding one to help take out there unit is a very good thing. Should you want to meet your Battalion Commander, bring in a wounded prisoner.
I had the privilege of being trained at the 1st team (1st. air Cav. Div.) snipers school in 1970 at Bien Hoa Vietnam. The training NCO`s Had Distinguished rifleman Badges, several were members of the President`s 100. A specially trained armor from Ft. Benning, Ga completed their team. After a few days of orientation & evaluation, the half or so of us remaining, were issued the new XM-21 Sniper rifle, not to be confused with the National Match 14 or the later M21. In 1970 the use of Snipers in warfare was strictly forbidden by the Geneva Convention. For that reason alone, the members of any Army sniper team’s effect on the war was not publicize. The XM21 was truly an outstanding weapon. Issued with a special 3x9 Redfield scope, an early version Starlight scope & could be equipped with a subsonic wave length controller designed to mask & hide the shooters position. The new XM21s were often placed in firing cradles & electorally fired to remove all droughts of accuracy. Nor would our NCO`s hesitate to test fire your weapon, while explaining the meaning of Their motto one shot one kill. All sight adjustment was made using a spotting scope while firing at steel targets between 300 & 900 meters.) My Esperance operating in the central high lands of Vietnam with Air cav. recon units & 75 ranger teams was most shots were fast & limited to more moderate ranges. The units working in the southern delta regions were practicing their reach out and touch you skills. Remember, dead men tell no tales, meaning they can`t give you any information about troop strength & movement or plans they may have over heard. dead men are just left behind, but a wounded soldier must be carried & cared for most likely slowing down there unit, giving you a chance to call in air support or artillery. Really few commanders are impressed by a sniper team taking out one or even two enemy soldiers. But wounding one to help take out there unit is a very good thing. Should you want to meet your Battalion Commander, bring in a wounded prisoner.
This is a link to an on-line copy of Sharpening the Combat Edge by Lieutenant General Julian Ewell, the CG of the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam. Starting on page 120 it covers the 9th ID's Vietnam sniper program.
SHARPENING THE COMBAT EDGE
SHARPENING THE COMBAT EDGE
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This is a link to an on-line copy of Sharpening the Combat Edge by Lieutenant General Julian Ewell, the CG of the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam. Starting on page 120 it covers the 9th ID's Vietnam sniper program.
SHARPENING THE COMBAT EDGE
Can anyone comment on the mount on this M14? It looks like one to adapt an M1c mount/G&H, to an M14. Note how it has the same rail/look of an M1C bracket. It also appears it could be a case deflector.?? The scope appears to be a Redfield, probably an Accurange. Great photo.
Im pretty sure carlos did his own mods. My father met him in country before I was ever born.
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I know macabee was his plt armour during his second tour. thought I read somewhere that he like to do his own work. I could be wrong, but I thought macabee revamped the plt rifles according to what hathcock requested.
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