more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew a guy who was accidently shot through the chest by the cops in our small city... And he got $500,000 from our small city, plus medical bills paid for.

Can't wait to hear how much each of these victims get from one of the worlds largest and most popular cities! </div></div>

Bear in mind that any payout by the police is actually a payout by the taxpayers.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew a guy who was accidently shot through the chest by the cops in our small city... And he got $500,000 from our small city, plus medical bills paid for.

Can't wait to hear how much each of these victims get from one of the worlds largest and most popular cities! </div></div>

Bear in mind that any payout by the police is actually a payout by the taxpayers.
</div></div>

This payout will be peanuts relative to the real checks the City will soon be cutting.

NYPD's routine abuse of citizens 4th Amendment rights through Stop & Frisk is now a Class Action lawsuit.

HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of NYers are suing the City for NYPD's Gestapo tactics, and they will be paid.


"First, suspicionless stops should never occur," the judge wrote. "Defendants' cavalier attitude towards the prospect of a 'widespread practice of suspicionless stops' displays a deeply troubling apathy towards New Yorkers' most fundamental constitutional rights."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303360504577408521576868172.html
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<span style="font-size: 23pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">VIDEO!</span></span></span>

You have to scroll down a little but it's there. I had to replay it a few times to really see what happens. Looks like the dude was walking away all clam and only pulled a gun when the cops who ran up to him so I don't think this was a suicide by cop situation.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic...hooter-graphic/
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

So my guess is that even though it was a simple murder (probably some gay lover quarrel) and the only "mass shooting" was done by the police being idiots and hitting everyone else, the media & that evil bloomberg guy will call it some kind of "Mass Shooting" and that is why we need to take away all guns etc.

The interview with Bloomberg would probably go like this:

Bloomberg: After this terrible mass shooting we need to ban all guns to make our citizens safe...

Reporter: But wasn't all the "mass shooting" done by your police hitting everyone except their target?

Bloombergs: No if the one murderer had not had a gun then the police wouldn't have hosed down the street with bullets so it's still the fault of someone having a gun.

Reporter: But what about the times the NYPD shot huge amounts of bullets at unarmed suspects, you can't blame them having a gun on that?

Bloomberg: Yes still the fault of citizens having guns, because the officers thought maybe there could be a gun that is why they had to use a hail of bullets just to make sure there was none.

Reporter: But it's already illegal in the city for just about anyone to have or carry guns, how will banning them help keep us safe from the police shooting up the place?

Bloomberg: Our officers are the finest in the country and the best and..........
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my guess is that even though it was a simple murder (probably some gay lover quarrel) and the only "mass shooting" was done by the police being idiots and hitting everyone else, the media & that evil bloomberg guy will call it some kind of "Mass Shooting" and that is why we need to take away all guns etc.

The interview with Bloomberg would probably go like this:

Bloomberg: After this terrible mass shooting we need to ban all guns to make our citizens safe...

Reporter: But wasn't all the "mass shooting" done by your police hitting everyone except their target?

Bloombergs: No if the one murderer had not had a gun then the police wouldn't have hosed down the street with bullets so it's still the fault of someone having a gun.

Reporter: But what about the times the NYPD shot huge amounts of bullets at unarmed suspects, you can't blame them having a gun on that?

Bloomberg: Yes still the fault of citizens having guns, because the officers thought maybe there could be a gun that is why they had to use a hail of bullets just to make sure there was none.

Reporter: But it's already illegal in the city for just about anyone to have or carry guns, how will banning them help keep us safe from the police shooting up the place?

Bloomberg: Our officers are the finest in the country and the best and.......... </div></div>

Bwahahaha ... that's classic.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Until you're faced with the exact situation these guys had this morning, you're not one to judge.
And I guess that now qualifies you to Monday Morning QB incidents you've probably never faced yourself and to bad mouth the guys that are dodging rounds. </div></div>
Seems to me the only ones dodging rounds yesterday were the citizens and visitors of New York City, who the fuck are you to armchair QB being an unarmed bystander faced with a hail of bullets? So while you are up on you high horse you can go fuck yourself. Your job and the job of your peers is to secure the public safety, often at your own risk. Shooting 8 people is unacceptable. You can get angry and red in the face trying to defend whatever the hell point it is you are trying to make. Numbers do not lie. The murderer put all of his rounds where he wanted them to go; in his victim. The cops shot 8 people. That's dangerous criminal 0 cops 8 on the random gun violence meter. New York is not a battlefield there is no such thing as acceptable collateral damage.

To slowkota and maggot:
I'm not saying the cops heads should roll. In fact I think these guys did the right thing, they stopped the BG. They just did the right thing the wrong way and they have to answer for it. As professionals, as keepers of the public trust and safety, and as public servants these cops or rather the NYPD has a responsibility to make sure that things like this don't happen, and to be held accountable when they do. I don't want these two cops to burn for this, I want the public to be safe. In this case I want them to be safe from the fine marksmen of the NYPD.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Grimm, why don't you smell my ass? No one is here is making any excuses or saying that what happened is acceptable. The fact of the matter is that it happens and until guys like yourself reach down between your legs, find your balls and do the job, innocents are still going to get hurt in Midtown Manhattan. I suspect you'd rather critique things you know nothing about from the comfort of mommys WiFi connection. Douche.

For the record, not that facts or reason play a difference here but most of the civilians hit by ricochets or from rounds that passed through and through.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grimm, why don't you smell my ass? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You gonna take me up on my offer or what? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're lucky, I might just bend you over and frisk you so you can experience first hand what you love to talk about so much. </div></div>

No luck with your personal ad at The Village Voice?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 23pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">VIDEO!</span></span></span>

You have to scroll down a little but it's there. I had to replay it a few times to really see what happens. Looks like the dude was walking away all clam and only pulled a gun when the cops who ran up to him so I don't think this was a suicide by cop situation.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic...hooter-graphic/ </div></div>

WTH is the Cop on the left aiming at when they shoot the dude?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 23pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">VIDEO!</span></span></span>

You have to scroll down a little but it's there. I had to replay it a few times to really see what happens. Looks like the dude was walking away all clam and only pulled a gun when the cops who ran up to him so I don't think this was a suicide by cop situation.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic...hooter-graphic/ </div></div>

WTH is the Cop on the left aiming at when they shoot the dude? </div></div>

A lawsuit
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your fellow officers only managed to wing 9 innocents, while displaying the firearms proficiency of a 12yr old gang banger.

Carry on with towing that line Slap, it's what your good at, besides abusing the rights of NYers.

Best of luck with your Stop & Frisk efforts this weekend. </div></div>

According to your profile, you don't even live in the city, yet you've become the resident subject matter expert on the inner workings of the NYPD.

Since you seem to have all the answers, why don't you c'mon down and show us how it oughta be done. If you're lucky, I might just bend you over and frisk you so you can experience first hand what you love to talk about so much. </div></div>

I lived in NYC for nearly a decade after grad school, and got the hell out after finally realizing what a shithole it truly is. I still have friends and family in the Boroughs, and visit them several times a year, so spare me your attempt at distraction, I know NYC & NYPD. Having witnessed NYPD knuckledraggers like yourself routinely abuse their authority and wipe their arses with the Constitution, I'm FULLY qualified to speak on your department. You work for one of the most corrupt departments in the country and no amount of dancing on your part changes that reality. I KNOW who you are Slap, and why you're NYPD, just another drone who actually thinks he's a good guy. God help the people of NY while you're on the job. Try and constrain your homo-erotic desires, I'm not a switch hitter.

</div></div>

Fact is Slapchop is not even NYPD..Yonkers is not NYPD. just sayin
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

keitxw.png
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Every time there is a cop involved shooting, discussios occured discussing what went wrong, what went right for the purpose of training in preperation for future incidents. I set in on several of these where we discussed the incident without the name calling.

Apparently that isn't possible on this topic on this forum. Its a shame though, seems like there is a lot of training that could be changed from this incident.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grimm, why don't you smell my ass? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You gonna take me up on my offer or what? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're lucky, I might just bend you over and frisk you so you can experience first hand what you love to talk about so much. </div></div>

No luck with your personal ad at The Village Voice? </div></div>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jgoG5o7Jsk4"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jgoG5o7Jsk4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Show tunes ...

laugh.gif
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Lets have some actual discussion on what is seen in the 15-second footage that's rolling around right now, rather than screaming at each other. The times I listed were based off a Youtube video...its possible other sites that reproduce this video might have time that's slightly different. I'm not sure what the origins of this video were.

The suspect in a two-piece gray suit and dark attache hurriedly walks on the outside of the sidewalk between the streets and planters. He looks rearwards possibly because of a police command, where two cops come into the camera right at the beginning of :04. It's worth noting the first cop that enters the frame eventually becomes the cop in the rear as the second officer that enters the frame runs in front of the first cop. The cop that gets passed already had his firearm drawn, and while the resolution isn't high enough, at :07 it's fairly obvious. From :07 to the beginning of :011, that cop has his gun pointed not at low-ready, but at the suspect with his partner between them the whole time until he makes active movement to remove his partner from his line of fire. The suspect walks another 3-4 paces while he partially turns around. While still in motion, he draws his handgun from what appears to be his waistband or his attache, as the attache is pulled up and held in front of his waist with his left hand. The video is not high enough in resolution for me to really see it. I don't know if you can "frame by frame" on youtube. In fact, his attache cannot be clearly made out until the :06 mark, once he passes the second-closest planter and the foliage ceases to obscure his torso. In any case, he draws the firearm up while holding it at his hip with his right hand and a crooked elbow, while retaining his briefcase in the left hand and takes a step forward.

At this point, the suspect is an estimated 10-12 feet away from the closest officer in pursuit. The lead officer appears to be left-handed, stops in his tracks and takes a short step back while placing his lead foot in front, drawing his firearm and takes up an aggressive Weaver shooting stance. It's difficult to tell because the dark uniform blends into the dark foliage when he is in front of the third planter so we can only rely on bare arms and his footwork which indicates that of a left-handed individual using a trained stance. He uses constant movement and works towards the planter to his right as concealment while laying down fire. However his line of fire during this ordeal becomes the entire length of the street's sidewalk, meaning the only backstop is people and objects along the sidewalk. After firing his shots, he goes to one-handed low ready with his left-hand while using the radio with his right. During the entire encounter, this officer's lateral distance does not change at all, only the angular placement with respect to the shooter.

The second officer is several paces behind the lead officer the entire time. He reacts at the same time and actually steps to the right twice, following the actions of the lead officer. He remains approximately 5 feet behind the officer, mirroring his moves. This makes him about 15 feet from the shooter. This also directly places the lead officer between the suspect and himself. This officer also had his handgun drawn and pointed at the suspect the entire time when the officers first show up in the video. Given he mimicked movement to keep this other officer between himself and the suspect, it made it impossible to fire a shot without risking the life of the officer in front of him. It also meant the muzzle of the gun was sweeping the officer in front of him the entire time. This officer, for whatever reason, chose to fire his sidearm single-handedly while using a crouched crab-walking for movement. His other hand isn't retaining anything or grasping anything. It's just off floating around. He finally makes the realization that he has to move away to make an actual shot. He makes one large step to his left before using his crab crawl technique, which places his line of fire sweeping out to the street. While he is shooting, he moves leftwards and rearwards until he is roughly 25-30 feet at the corner of the camera and finally steps out of frame.

It doesn't appear possible to determine in the footage the vertical angle of engagement when law enforcement fires. That is, you cannot tell if the officers were firing parallel to the horizon or at a downwards angle.

Some interesting observations:

Several tenths of a second before the video rolls from :12 to :13, you can see what appears to be two flashes of light in the foliage on the first planter closest to the camera. One takes place near the very top of the visible foliage, with one immediately succeeding it several inches below. Earlier in the video, there appears to be something sitting atop of this foliage, as it can be seen obscuring the shooter. Perhaps it was something like a mylar balloon or other light or reflective object that was hit by gunfire and it tumbled off the plant. They are not bullet sparks obviously.

Another observations. :08 in, there is a woman in a white shirt with a small female child in a blue shirt walking towards the officers. When the gunfire erupts, the woman runs in front of the child and abandons her.

Particular video I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NWvrYOn9NPE
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

^^^^^^^^

Good analysis. Wasnt pretty but it looks to me like they did what they had to do.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

But seriously all bullshit aside, the 12 pound triggers in these NYPD service pistols is fucking absurd. Given the circumstances and having been in that area during time of the day before I think the cops did a good job containing the situation and neutrlizing the threat.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Given the circumstances and having been in that area during time of the day before I think the cops did a good job containing the situation and neutrlizing the threat. </div></div>

Remind me to try to use that defense if someone is threatening me with a gun and I take them down but also injure a bunch of innocent bystanders, somehow I don't think the police and the local prosecutor's office will exactly see it that way.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think the cops did a good job containing the situation and neutrlizing the threat. </div></div>

From the video he didn't look like a threat at all. Why not just follow him from a distance until you get to a safe area where you can try to arrest him?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fact is Slapchop is not even NYPD..Yonkers is not NYPD. just sayin </div></div>

That's one of the biggest inside jokes around here. Cant believe you called him out lmfao.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another observations. :08 in, there is a woman in a white shirt with a small female child in a blue shirt walking towards the officers. When the gunfire erupts, the woman runs in front of the child and abandons her.

Particular video I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NWvrYOn9NPE </div></div>

Look again man! At 14-15 seconds you can clearly see she has the hands of a child. Possibly a 2nd!
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another observations. :08 in, there is a woman in a white shirt with a small female child in a blue shirt walking towards the officers. When the gunfire erupts, the woman runs in front of the child and abandons her.

Particular video I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NWvrYOn9NPE </div></div>

Look again man! At 14-15 seconds you can clearly see she has the hands of a child. Possibly a 2nd!
</div></div>

Good catch! I didn't realize they re-entered the bottom right frame of the camera later on. On another watch, she picked up a second male child in a green shirt. This child appears to be a child in tow with a white shirted fellow in a red backpack who walks in front of the mother and girl. They might be husband and wife. She initially seems to shove the man aside and disappears from the camera, then makes a reappearance at :014 with both children in tow.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the 12 pound triggers in these NYPD service</div></div>

In this case people would be better off NYPD having 120pound triggers.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

It is ignorant anti-police comments in threads like these that I don't waste my time on Internet gun forums that much anymore. When 1 cop fucks up, all of us cops are a bunch of assholes. When two cops do their best in a tough situation like this, they still fuck up. Then you guys wonder why so many cops come across as being assholes or not giving a fuck. The sad part is guys like Kraig, who claimed to be a cop and make such ignorant statements like he has. It is bad enough the officers will feel like crap for hitting the innocent victims and they will take some heat for it, but when it comes from someone who claims to have been a cop for years, you are a piece of shit for it. And by the way Mr. Expert, even trained SWAT experts fuck up when under stress. It is called being human, which you are not, you are just some piece of shit trying to be kool in front of your other fellow ignorant friends.

It is sad how more and more I am beginning to think that the right wing gun nuts are just as ignorant, if not worse, than the idiot liberals. At least the liberals have been much nicer and appreciative towards LE lately and that is fucking sad.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least the liberals have been much nicer and appreciative towards LE lately and that is fucking sad. </div></div>

Tissue?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least the liberals have been much nicer and appreciative towards LE lately and that is fucking sad. </div></div>

Tissue? </div></div>

You need a tissue to wipe your chocha?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

I guess I'm suppose to feel bad now.

If we don't police ourselves, how can we expect the citizens to have any trust in our chosen profession.

Maybe we should go back and study Peele and O.W. Wilson.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every time there is a cop involved shooting, discussios occured discussing what went wrong, what went right for the purpose of training in preperation for future incidents. I set in on several of these where we discussed the incident without the name calling.

Apparently that isn't possible on this topic on this forum. Its a shame though, seems like there is a lot of training that could be changed from this incident. </div></div>

Many of us cops have tried over and over to have those discussions here. However, because of the ignorant comments for equally ignorant people, it became impossible to have civil, intelligent discussions because no matter how we explained anything, we were wrong. Maybe if guys like you, who claim to be retired cops, stopped selling out and became more diplomatic, we could have some civil discussions.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is ignorant anti-police comments in threads like these that I don't waste my time on Internet gun forums that much anymore. When 1 cop fucks up, all of us cops are a bunch of assholes. When two cops do their best in a tough situation like this, they still fuck up. Then you guys wonder why so many cops come across as being assholes or not giving a fuck. The sad part is guys like Kraig, who claimed to be a cop and make such ignorant statements like he has. It is bad enough the officers will feel like crap for hitting the innocent victims and they will take some heat for it, but when it comes from someone who claims to have been a cop for years, you are a piece of shit for it. And by the way Mr. Expert, even trained SWAT experts fuck up when under stress. It is called being human, which you are not, you are just some piece of shit trying to be kool in front of your other fellow ignorant friends.

It is sad how more and more I am beginning to think that the right wing gun nuts are just as ignorant, if not worse, than the idiot liberals. At least the liberals have been much nicer and appreciative towards LE lately and that is fucking sad. </div></div>

Paul,

I can't disagree with most of what you wrote. I think Kraig made a valid point about the woeful lack of marksmanship
extant among too many armed people, professional and non. But I don't believe it was fair to apply it to this situation just yet.

That said, 9 citizens injured by stray, ricochet or through rounds is a huge problem. We all own every shot we take. These have consequences.

It is clear the officers had to shoot: The murderer clearly aimed his gun at the officers. Beyond that, nearly all of the criticism of the officers shooting skills is premature and unfair.

As to absurdly heavy trigger pulls, spraying and praying, indifference to the safety of bystanders and other conjecture, I think it is still woefully premature to condemn the officers who had every reason to believe the murderer was intent on killing many others.

I have found Kraig to be a fair and decent guy and Slapchop as well. I hope any enmity between them is short lived.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every time there is a cop involved shooting, discussios occured discussing what went wrong, what went right for the purpose of training in preperation for future incidents. I set in on several of these where we discussed the incident without the name calling.

Apparently that isn't possible on this topic on this forum. Its a shame though, seems like there is a lot of training that could be changed from this incident. </div></div>

Many of us cops have tried over and over to have those discussions here. However, because of the ignorant comments for equally ignorant people, it became impossible to have civil, intelligent discussions because no matter how we explained anything, we were wrong. Maybe if guys like you, who claim to be retired cops, stopped selling out and became more diplomatic, we could have some civil discussions. </div></div>

Your FIRST instinct was to circle the wagons, so spare me your drivel about wanting honest discussion.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ignorant comments for equally ignorant people, ... it became impossible to have civil, intelligent discussions</div></div>


You call people "ignorant" and then expect a "civil discussion"?

It's not fair to call people who don't agree with you 'ignorant' especially when you've got a vested interest in the outcome and that 'attitude' only goes to buttress the points of your opposition.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is ignorant anti-police comments in threads like these that I don't waste my time on Internet gun forums that much anymore. When 1 cop fucks up, all of us cops are a bunch of assholes. When two cops do their best in a tough situation like this, they still fuck up. Then you guys wonder why so many cops come across as being assholes or not giving a fuck. The sad part is guys like Kraig, who claimed to be a cop and make such ignorant statements like he has. It is bad enough the officers will feel like crap for hitting the innocent victims and they will take some heat for it, but when it comes from someone who claims to have been a cop for years, you are a piece of shit for it. And by the way Mr. Expert, even trained SWAT experts fuck up when under stress. It is called being human, which you are not, you are just some piece of shit trying to be kool in front of your other fellow ignorant friends.

It is sad how more and more I am beginning to think that the right wing gun nuts are just as ignorant, if not worse, than the idiot liberals. At least the liberals have been much nicer and appreciative towards LE lately and that is fucking sad. </div></div>

Paul,

I can't disagree with most of what you wrote. I think Kraig made a valid point about the woeful lack of marksmanship
extant among too many armed people, professional and non. But I don't believe it was fair to apply it to this situation just yet.

That said, 9 citizens injured by stray, ricochet or through rounds is a huge problem. We all own every shot we take. These have consequences.

It is clear the officers had to shoot: The murderer clearly aimed his gun at the officers. Beyond that, nearly all of the criticism of the officers shooting skills is premature and unfair.

As to absurdly heavy trigger pulls, spraying and praying, indifference to the safety of bystanders and other conjecture, I think it is still woefully premature to condemn the officers who had every reason to believe the murderer was intent on killing many others.

I have found Kraig to be a fair and decent guy and Slapchop as well. I hope any enmity between them is short lived. </div></div>

It isn't so much what Kraig is saying, but more of how he is saying it and when he is saying it. Right now isn't the time. Let's gather all of the facts and take it from there.

We all know the problems with training, or lack there of, in LE. I've been an instructor for several years now and it is both the fault of the brass and the fault of the individual officers who don't take the initiative to train on their own time. Even when we have training days, there are officers who just want to qualify and go home. Recently we've added some fun, yet challenging obstacle courses after the qualifications to get get in the more tactical mindset so they get an idea how they would do under stress. And lots of departments are trying such things. But no matter how much training you do, it doesn't replace the real thing. When we train, no one is shooting back, so no matter how well we do in training, things change when you are encountered with a situation where someone is shooting back at you and you can die as a result. That's why Kraig pissed me off so much. He should know that and not jump the gun with those comments.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ignorant comments for equally ignorant people, ... it became impossible to have civil, intelligent discussions</div></div>


You call people "ignorant" and then expect a "civil discussion"?

It's not fair to call people who don't agree with you 'ignorant' especially when you've got a vested interest in the outcome and that 'attitude' only goes to buttress the points of your opposition. </div></div>

BINGO!!!


paul can't address the specifics, and then trashes anyone who doesn't support his agenda.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

I forgot to mention: everyone is focusing on weapons training as the cause of the problem. I can tell you that there is something even more important than weapons training that no ever discusses and that is the physical training. I would put more emphasis on physical training than anything else. I'm not saying that weapons training isn't important, but we need to be in good physical shape.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ignorant comments for equally ignorant people, ... it became impossible to have civil, intelligent discussions</div></div>


You call people "ignorant" and then expect a "civil discussion"?

It's not fair to call people who don't agree with you 'ignorant' especially when you've got a vested interest in the outcome and that 'attitude' only goes to buttress the points of your opposition. </div></div>

BINGO!!!


paul can't address the specifics, and then trashes anyone who doesn't support his agenda.


</div></div>

I don't have an agenda and if you read my posts, I am trying to address the issues.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your FIRST instinct was to circle the wagons, so spare me your drivel about wanting honest discussion.
</div></div>

Kinda like your fist instinct is to push your anti establishment agenda in your usual fashion. I mean what does Stop & Frisk have to do with this topic or many others, yet you always seem to interject it any chance you get.

But you still haven't taken me up on my offer. I can arrange it so that you truly do feel "violated". Then you'll be able to post with a bit of street cred.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

If you guys are concerned about the lack of training in LE and other complaints, why not call up the you Mayor and Police Chief and tell them your concerns? Most Chiefs and Mayors don't listen to us cops, but I'd they get enough calls from concerned citizens, they have no choice but to listen. That's what happened in my department. Our old Chief retired last year and our new Chief changed things. We are getting better training and we even have a new gym (we paid for with our money, not the taxpayer's money, just in case you were wonderjng), and we have a workout on duty policy and we are coming out with a PT Test. All of this came about because when our current was a Lieutenant, he actually listened to us and people in the community who knew about the ofghcer's concerns and helped us out.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would put more emphasis on physical training than anything else.</div></div>

I think Thomas Jefferson address this quite well in a letter to Peter Carr in 1785)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent to the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun be your constant companion of your walks.</div></div>
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

There is no civil discussion to be had in these threads. Just the usual going back and forth bullshit.

There are those that will find fault time and time again, regardless of the actions of LE. Just take the other thread, where the cop was the consummate professional in his handling of the situation. Still, guys like Sharac and Gay Montag still find issues with it.

Clowns like them remind me of the great unwashed from OWS, the professional agitators who's sole purpose is to ignite a confrontation in order to get it on film.

Everyone claims to be able to do it better but no one ever offers up solutions as to how. For all of the keyboard experts, why not man up, put on a uniform and show us how to do it. Whats the saying, "Be the change you want to see in the world".
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paul,

No disrespect of course but who pays for the "Workout on duty" time? </div></div>

We are allowed to workout for 1 hour per day, 3 out of the 4 days that we work (we work a 4 days on/4 days off. In order to be allowed to workout on duty, there has to be at least 4 other officers working (we have a shift minimum of 4 people with a max of 7, not including supervisors). Just an example: We've had this program out since early this year and due to our man shortage, I've only worked out on duty a handful of times and I'm the one that has set up this whole program. I have to do most of my workouts before or after my shift. The workouts have to be approved workouts and not some crap that guys pull out of their ass. If anyone gets caught dicking around, they will be suspended for a month from the gym.

As far as who pays for it, it is considered training.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are allowed to workout for 1 hour per day, 3 out of the 4 days that we work</div></div>

I wonder what the results would be if the same 1 hour a day, 3 days a week were spent on firarms training and range time.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Paul,

I have no problem with that of course. Just pointing out the often neglected (and just as often overplayed) nexus of commerce involved in taxpayer funded agencies and the public servants.

Nothing pejorative intended.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paul,

I have no problem with that of course. Just pointing out the often neglected (and just as often overplayed) nexus of commerce involved in taxpayer funded agencies and the public servants.

Nothing pejorative intended. </div></div>

I understand the concerns and we made it as legit as we possibly can. If you saw our department, you'd see that most of the officers are in good shape and look good in uniform, including the older ones, so it has had a positive impact.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are allowed to workout for 1 hour per day, 3 out of the 4 days that we work</div></div>

I wonder what the results would be if the same 1 hour a day, 3 days a week were spent on firarms training and range time.

</div></div>

How would that be even possible? We don't have our own shooting range (we are working on that though), and how would we be able to afford all of that shooting? And that applies to other departments. Working out doesn't involve money.

And another thing. When we last did our last little obstacle course, which involved shooting as part of the course, the guys that were out of shape had a hard time with the shooting when all of a sudden their heartrate was elevated. Everyone, including those officers noticed it.

Think of it in sports terms. I play soccer. If all I did was train for soccer, I would become good at soccer up to a certain level. Now if I start a strength and conditioning program to along with that sports specific training, my game will go to a whole new level. We have a guy that I play with that has amazing skill, but after 20 minutes, he is gassed out.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

All in all, I think a lot, if not all of the "cop bashing" would go away if LE went back to Rober Peel's Principles of policing;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.

Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.</div></div>
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All in all, I think a lot, if not all of the "cop bashing" would go away if LE went back to Rober Peel's Principles of policing;</div></div>

I would bet a left nut that it wouldn't stop anything. And what does that have to do with training and shooting that we were discussing?