more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And what does that have to do with training and shooting that we were discussing?</div></div>

What has Peel have to do with "training and shooting"?

How do I put this nicely with out starting more name calling?

I don't think I can without being blunt.

Peel's main theme is public trust of the police and their policing.

Hitting nine citizens to get one bad guy doesn't instill a lot of trust in police training methods.

Peel's of Principles of Policing does fit quite well in this topic.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what the results would be if the same 1 hour a day, 3 days a week were spent on firarms training and range time.

</div></div>
I know some NYPD officers, some NYSP and some other officers all across Rockland County... and ALL of them only go to the range once or twice right before qualifications unless they are SWAT, and you can bet your asses that most everyone in their PD's are doing the exact same thing so spare us the bullshit (not directed at KraigWY). KraigWY makes a valid point, if you make your living as a LEO there is not one good reason why you should not be training with the tools of your trade (even if you have to spend your own money to do so) anything less is just not acceptable and that is what he is pointing out. Why are you getting worked up? everything he said is true. And I'm not just talking shit here, as an electrician I have to buy my own tools, working gear and I have to go to training on my own time that I am not paid for. Also, if someone gets hurt or killed because I did something wrong I answer for it in a court of law and I can be charged criminally.... why shouldn't Police also be made to answer for someone getting hurt or killed because they didn't put enough effort into their training?

Slap & Paul, As a LEO I'm asking you to this:
Why shouldn't every LEO be held accountable for his/her actions just as they hold others accountable for their actions?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

As I figure it every collateral will sue and collect not less than $250,000/case settlement. The city will never put this case before a jury.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your FIRST instinct was to circle the wagons, so spare me your drivel about wanting honest discussion.
</div></div>

Kinda like your fist instinct is to push your anti establishment agenda in your usual fashion. I mean what does Stop & Frisk have to do with this topic or many others, yet you always seem to interject it any chance you get.

But you still haven't taken me up on my offer. I can arrange it so that you truly do feel "violated". Then you'll be able to post with a bit of street cred.</div></div>

This type of post is EXACTLY why the public has turned against LE. Our local PD carries out threats and is very corrupt. The fact that you would actually threaten someone who disagrees with you or even insults you is actually quite typical of LE attitudes that result in the plunging respect citizens have for the profession.

Street cred? Spare me. What you forget when you post here is that there are many who see problems with modern LE who not only have faced dangerous situations, but have used deadly force in situations far more precarious than this, with weapons that have far greater opportunity for collateral damage, while being shot at, all while being held to a higher standard of accountability. The "it was a tough situation" excuse garners zero sympathy, and zero willingness to excuse poor results. The fact is, the job isn't for everyone, and many who have it shouldn't. In CAS, we were absolutely merciless with sub-standard performance because it WILL cause friendly deaths. When the CAS pilot he called for help accidentally wipes out his platoon, should the platoon leader just keep his mouth shut because HE has never rolled in hot "danger close" and therefore has no "street cred" to validate his criticism? Hardly. Guys who spent the best years of their lives at the exclusion of family and hobbies and personal lives training continually for the job were GONE at the behest of their peers when they didn't or couldn't execute correctly.

Thats how it should be...and if thats how it was in every police department then threads like this would be few and far between. Its a hard truth. It's even more difficult in practice, where you fire a guy that loses his pension and he has a wife and kids and all that. We know you are not paid in accordance with your massive responsibilities. But, unlike the military you can leave whenever you want. None of that changes the fact that a life is a life, so the standard remains. I'll ask again-if you were called to the scene of a CCW permit holder who in a justified use of deadly force against an aggressor also shot nine uninvolved civilians would the state have a case or not?

It is fascinating yet disappointing to me that the ROE for the use of force against American citizens is less restrictive and more forgiving with less accountability than that which we employ against our enemies in combat. Think about that for a moment and you might understand the criticism. It should be obvious that it ought to be exactly the opposite in a free republic.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what the results would be if the same 1 hour a day, 3 days a week were spent on firarms training and range time.

</div></div>
I know some NYPD officers, some NYSP and some other officers all across Rockland County... and ALL of them only go to the range once or twice right before qualifications unless they are SWAT, and you can bet your asses that most everyone in their PD's are doing the exact same thing so spare us the bullshit (not directed at KraigWY). KraigWY makes a valid point, if you make your living as a Police Officer there is not one good reason why you should not be training with the tools of your trade (even if you have to spend your own money to do so) anything less is just not acceptable and that is what he is pointing out. Why are you getting worked up? everything he said is true. And I'm not just talking shit here, as an electrician I have to buy my own tools, working gear and I have to go to training on my own time that I am not paid for. Also, if someone gets hurt or killed because I did something wrong I answer for it in a court of law and I can be charged criminally.... why shouldn't Police also be made to answer for someone getting hurt or killed because they didn't put enough effort into their training?

Slap & Paul, As Police officers I'm asking you to this:
Why shouldn't Police officers be held accountable for their actions just as they hold others accountable for their actions? </div></div>

Who said that officers shouldn't be accountable? All we are asking for is to stop monday morning quarterbacking everything and finding us gulty of everything before all of the facts are out. Just like if you had an incident at work and something went wrong and ended up in the newspaper, I wouldn'd jump the gun and say "you are an untrained idiot electrician and maybe instead of spending your time on the internet bashing cops, maybe you should have been doing some more training."

And by the way, most officers are decent shooters and can shoot. The probelm is when someone is shooting back. We don't get that kind of training very often.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fx77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I figure it every collateral will sue and collect not less than $250,000/case settlement. The city will never put this case before a jury. </div></div>

People sue even when they are wrong just because they know most places will just settle instead of dealing with it.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve."
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Truman, I agree with your post except for:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why is less important than IT WAS DONE</div></div>

Determining WHY will address the problem and hopefully prevent it from happening again.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve." </div></div>

The problem is that you are making it sound like they shot the innocent people on purpose. Put yourself in their place and see how you would feel if you were trying your best and accidentally shot innocent people. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Those 9 people should be thankful to be alive, but instead they will get lawyers and sue the hell out of the city. I hope they choke on that money if they sue.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no civil discussion to be had in these threads. Just the usual going back and forth bullshit.

There are those that will find fault time and time again, regardless of the actions of LE. Just take the other thread, where the cop was the consummate professional in his handling of the situation. Still, guys like Sharac and Gay Montag still find issues with it.

Clowns like them remind me of the great unwashed from OWS, the professional agitators who's sole purpose is to ignite a confrontation in order to get it on film.

Everyone claims to be able to do it better but no one ever offers up solutions as to how. For all of the keyboard experts, why not man up, put on a uniform and show us how to do it. Whats the saying, "Be the change you want to see in the world". </div></div>

+1

Cops put up with weird shit every day.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Paul if this was the only incident I MIGHT agree with you. But NYC doesn't have a real good record when it comes to spray and pray. They were lucky until this case. (and NYPD isn't the only one with this problem by a long shot).

You say "put yourelf in the officer's place" OK, but how about putting yourself in the 9 Citizen's Place.

People should feel safe with police officers, not afraid of their actions.

I'll go back to my rant about public trust. We need it if we are going to police effectively.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who said that officers shouldn't be accountable?</div></div>
It's not something that is openly stated, but it is implied.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All we are asking for is to stop monday morning quarterbacking everything and finding us gulty of everything before all of the facts are out.</div></div>
The facts are out, and guess what? the NYPD IS guilty of not owning the rounds fired.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just like if you had an incident at work and something went wrong and ended up in the newspaper, I wouldn'd jump the gun and say "you are an untrained idiot electrician and maybe instead of spending your time on the internet bashing cops, maybe you should have been doing some more training."</div></div>
I didn't jump the gun, and I never once called anyone an idiot, but I do know most of the officers in the area (NJ also) do not train as much as they should because they feel it shouldn't cost them anything for training supplies and that training should be a paid portion of their job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And by the way, most officers are decent shooters and can shoot. The probelm is when someone is shooting back. We don't get that kind of training very often. </div></div>

This has already been covered and it falls under the muscle memory portion of training.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your FIRST instinct was to circle the wagons, so spare me your drivel about wanting honest discussion.
</div></div>

Kinda like your fist instinct is to push your anti establishment agenda in your usual fashion. I mean what does Stop & Frisk have to do with this topic or many others, yet you always seem to interject it any chance you get.

But you still haven't taken me up on my offer. I can arrange it so that you truly do feel "violated". Then you'll be able to post with a bit of street cred. </div></div>


I've no problem with your "lifestyle" choice, but please consider cruising for fresh meat elsewhere.

As I indicated previously, I'm not a switch hitter.

Have a great week, and best of luck abusing the rights of the very people you PRETEND to protect.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Of all people, how come New Yorkers don't know to hit the deck when gun fire erupts?. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest they were standing upright running into each other. Everything happens for a reason. If you work in a liquor store you should know if you work there long enough eventually somebody is going to stick a gun in your face. If you live in New York eventually the cops are going to start shooting at somebody within range of yourself. Be prepared and use common sense. While Bloomberg is making everybody in town drop their sugar drinks he should also make them take a required course on how to lie down when a gunfight with cops erupts in the street. This is all the mayor's fault for not making New Yorkers take the required training.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve." </div></div>

The problem is that you are making it sound like they shot the innocent people on purpose. Put yourself in their place and see how you would feel if you were trying your best and accidentally shot innocent people. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Those 9 people should be thankful to be alive, but instead they will get lawyers and sue the hell out of the city. I hope they choke on that money if they sue. </div></div>

As they should. What difference does it make whether they are shot by police or a criminal the outcome is the same. No shoots aren't ok on the range or the simulator, and they aren't OK in reality. One oh shit might be reasonable but 9 is way beyond a mulligan.

The video I saw had 2 police officers at 3 and 5 yards from the shooter. 3-4 people on a park bench 3-5 yards behind the shooter, He raised a gun and they opened fire.

Misses at 3 and 5 yards are not acceptable.

The police officer of all people should know that safeguarding the civilians is the number one priority. When they pulled their firearms they should have been thinking, "How do I do this without hitting bystanders?"

Maybe the solution would be to fire aimed shots and hope for no over-penetration. Or maybe moving laterally to take the park bench and sidewalk out of play.

I would hope a city with the population of New York City has thought ahead and provided officers with some ammunition less likely to over-penetrate and some training with regard to being aware of what is beyond their target.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve." </div></div>

The problem is that you are making it sound like they shot the innocent people on purpose. Put yourself in their place and see how you would feel if you were trying your best and accidentally shot innocent people. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Those 9 people should be thankful to be alive, but instead they will get lawyers and sue the hell out of the city. I hope they choke on that money if they sue. </div></div>wow! thankful to be wounded by the police instead of dead by the police?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and will not take a side. I do have a few points for both sides:

1. As police, soldiers, or even citizen shooters, we all have a responsibility to know our Target and what is beyond. Whether it be hunting, defending, or protecting, we must choose our shots wisely, because we WILL be Monday morning quarterbacked.

2. I think that everyone has agreed that the collateral damage could have been mitigated through training, mental and physical preparation. With this in mind, why are we taking this situation to attack all cops. For that matter, why take the opportunity to attack the cops involved on any other level than a training issue. These two did not stop and frisk, nor, I assume, post any derogatory remarks on Sniper's Hide.

It IS easy to critique from an armchair, however, even these critiques have a place to make us better at what we do. Every mission has an after action review. If we as a forum can do this civilly and intelligently, we make departments everywhere better from the combined experience of all of our shooters. If we polarized our discussion and make it a me vs you, we break down the citizen/protector trust and fail before we begin. Instead, we should address what could have been done differently tactically, so that we can all take away training value from a sad situation.

Just sayin'....
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who said that officers shouldn't be accountable?</div></div>
It's not something that is openly stated, but it is implied.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All we are asking for is to stop monday morning quarterbacking everything and finding us gulty of everything before all of the facts are out.</div></div>
The facts are out, and guess what? the NYPD IS guilty of not owning the rounds fired.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just like if you had an incident at work and something went wrong and ended up in the newspaper, I wouldn'd jump the gun and say "you are an untrained idiot electrician and maybe instead of spending your time on the internet bashing cops, maybe you should have been doing some more training."</div></div>
I didn't jump the gun, and I never once called anyone an idiot, but I do know most of the officers in the area (NJ also) do not train as much as they should because they feel it shouldn't cost them anything for training supplies and that training should be a paid portion of their job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And by the way, most officers are decent shooters and can shoot. The probelm is when someone is shooting back. We don't get that kind of training very often. </div></div>

This has already been covered and it falls under the muscle memory portion of training. </div></div>

That muscle memory crap applies to when you are at the range. When you are put in a real life situation, it is different. That is why most departments are trying to make it as realistic as possible by switching to more realistic training. So it is more about the type of training rather than just training for the hell of it. No one can predict how anyone will perform when faced with a real life situation. There is no amount of training that will get you ready for that. There are officers that will do a great job and there are some that will choke and freeze on the spot.

Here is an example of how muscle memory got some officers killed. I believe it happened in California, but it doesn't really matter:

"There was a shooting in which officers were killed and after the shooting, they noticed that the officers were shot while trying to take the spent brass out of their revolvers and placing them in their pockets, instead of just dropping the brass and reloading. The reason they were trying to put the brass in their pockets is because when they used to traing, their range instructor made them put the brass in their pockets instead of dropping the brass on the ground and reloading as fast as possible. They reverted to what they did at the range. Bad training lead to bad results/their death. That is an example of how bad muscle memory got them killed"
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OdellJym</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a dog in this fight, and will not take a side. I do have a few points for both sides:

1. As police, soldiers, or even citizen shooters, we all have a responsibility to know our Target and what is beyond. Whether it be hunting, defending, or protecting, we must choose our shots wisely, because we WILL be Monday morning quarterbacked.
</div></div>

I think 95% of police officers would have done a better job here. Police officers are very professional and highly skilled at least here in Wisconsin to the best of my knowledge.

My comments were more aligned with your #1 here: As a soldier more was expected of me. As a citizen when I'm carrying my CCW weapon I know safeguarding innocent life is going to be a #1 priority if I ever for some highly un-likely reason would have to use my CCW weapon to protect myself or others.

As a soldier, there really isn't a lot of legal protection for this type of outcome. As a civilian, there is even less.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve." </div></div>

The problem is that you are making it sound like they shot the innocent people on purpose. Put yourself in their place and see how you would feel if you were trying your best and accidentally shot innocent people. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Those 9 people should be thankful to be alive, but instead they will get lawyers and sue the hell out of the city. I hope they choke on that money if they sue. </div></div>wow! thankful to be wounded by the police instead of dead by the police? </div></div>

No. How about just being thankful to be alive, period. If those officers didn't kill that piece of shit, he could have killed more people.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: truman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bend it, twist it, or spin it, the bottom line is the police shot 9 innocents. why is less important than IT WAS DONE. how many good deeds and attaboys did these 9 "oh shits" destroy. pr can't do anything to negate this event. the current mayor will, most likely, have somebody fall on his sword. the official checkbook will tapped significantly. what happpend to "to PROTECT and to serve." </div></div>

The problem is that you are making it sound like they shot the innocent people on purpose. Put yourself in their place and see how you would feel if you were trying your best and accidentally shot innocent people. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Those 9 people should be thankful to be alive, but instead they will get lawyers and sue the hell out of the city. I hope they choke on that money if they sue. </div></div>

As they should. What difference does it make whether they are shot by police or a criminal the outcome is the same. No shoots aren't ok on the range or the simulator, and they aren't OK in reality. One oh shit might be reasonable but 9 is way beyond a mulligan.

The video I saw had 2 police officers at 3 and 5 yards from the shooter. 3-4 people on a park bench 3-5 yards behind the shooter, He raised a gun and they opened fire.

Misses at 3 and 5 yards are not acceptable.

The police officer of all people should know that safeguarding the civilians is the number one priority. When they pulled their firearms they should have been thinking, "How do I do this without hitting bystanders?"

Maybe the solution would be to fire aimed shots and hope for no over-penetration. Or maybe moving laterally to take the park bench and sidewalk out of play.

I would hope a city with the population of New York City has thought ahead and provided officers with some ammunition less likely to over-penetrate and some training with regard to being aware of what is beyond their target.
</div></div>

Wow. You would be able to think of all that if someone 3-5 yards away pulled out a gun on you? That is very impressive.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paul if this was the only incident I MIGHT agree with you. But NYC doesn't have a real good record when it comes to spray and pray. They were lucky until this case. (and NYPD isn't the only one with this problem by a long shot).

You say "put yourelf in the officer's place" OK, but how about putting yourself in the 9 Citizen's Place.

People should feel safe with police officers, not afraid of their actions.

I'll go back to my rant about public trust. We need it if we are going to police effectively. </div></div>

I am putting myself in the 9 people's place. I would just be happy to be alive. And I guess happy that I will be rich soon.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No. How about just being thankful to be alive, period. If those officers didn't kill that piece of shit, he <span style="color: #FF0000">could </span>have killed more people. </div></div>

^^"Could" <-- Sounds awfully Minority Report-ish.

However:

If you watch the video, it's clear he was just walking away and wasn't threatening anybody. The cops could have just as easily followed from a distance and initiated their stop in a safer place.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

And the 800lb gorilla in the room is the question of WHY heavy triggers are on NYPD firearms.

NYPD earned these heavy triggers due to past performance.

Tell it straight paul, you know the history of that department and it's not a pretty one.

 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the 800lb gorilla in the room is the question of WHY heavy triggers are on NYPD firearms.

NYPD earned these heavy triggers due to past performance.

Tell it straight paul, you know the history of that department and it's not a pretty one.

</div></div>

And in this situation, those 12lb triggers are probably the reason for a lot of those misses. How ironic. The issues of the NYPD and other departments is because of the brass and the lawyers, who are afraid that they will get sued for everything they do, so they come out with some stupid knee-jerk policies in reaction to something that happens instead of just fixing or dealing with issues the right way. Sk they end ip chasing their own tails.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That muscle memory crap applies to when you are at the range. When you are put in a real life situation, it is different.</div></div>

Sorry that is totally wrong. REALLY WRONG. About as far from the truth as you can get.

Muscle Memory is just that. If you spend hours upon hours, month after month, match after match looking at the front sight every time you get on the trigger...guess what, when you arn't thinking about it, when you are under stress, you're gonna look at the front sight when you shoot.

I learned that early in life, my father harped at me about front sight all my growing up years. When I was in Vietnam, every time I fired my rifle, and thought about it, I found myself looking at the front sight and a blury target. It comes natural. Same in hunting, same in police work, same in LE Sniping.

That's just one form of marksmanship fundamentals. Just reciently I was asked if I shot with both eyes open. I couldn't really say. Then had other people watch me at a match, Sure enough I do.

It's not just shooting, lets look at base ball. If we were right handed we tend to catch a ball with our left hand. Now as if grew out of playing base ball, years later in life some one throws something to us, we catch it with our left hand. We don't think about it, we just do it.

That is muscle memory, once developed, it becomes a habit, we have no control.

Again I'd like to suggest SECRETS OF MENTAL MARKSMANSHIP by Linda Miller and Keith Cunningham.

In that book, each time the authors bring up a topic dealing with mental management they follow the topic with a story on how the topic was covered, as a soldier, LE, Hunter, and Competition Shooter.

Muscle memory applies in all aspects of life, not just shooting.

What's the first thing we after we hit the can? We zip up, we dont think about it, we just do it. We don't say "I'm finished, what do I do now".........we just do it because we've done it several times a day for (in my case) 65 years.

That is muscle memory.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. You would be able to think of all that if someone 3-5 yards away pulled out a gun on you? That is very impressive.</div></div>

Not impressive at all, it's called Muscle Memory.

Muscle memory practicing to react to different threats.

You can easily practice that by scattering shotgun hulls over the range. Have someone follow you as you walk around and every now and then yelling SHOOT. After a while, you develope the ability to hit those hulls at 3-10 feet more often then not.

Muscle memory is the ability to act without having to think about it.

Never underestimate the power of Muscle Memory and Memory Management.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. You would be able to think of all that if someone 3-5 yards away pulled out a gun on you? That is very impressive. </div></div>

With enough training, that is indeed possible, it becomes instinct to position yourself for the most effective and safest shot, not only to yourself (getting behind cover) but to others as well (ensuring you have a clean line of fire to and beyond the target)

While patrolling New Baghdad towards the begining of my deployment, I was a gunner, we rounded a corner and I saw a boy, young teenager, on top of one of the buildings that just came into view. The boy had what initially looked like a rifle in his hands pointed right at me, I brought my rifle up, flicked the safety off, and put my finger on the trigger (all while tracking him with my sights as I was in a moving vehicle) I did not shoot though because as my finger settled on the trigger I saw that the boy just had a piece of metal in his hands, not a gun. Total span of time probably 5 second or though.

Point is I know that with training under stress a person will able to make those split second decisions and perform higher level mental thought processes because they have that muscle memory so the body practically acts on its own, without conscious thought distracting from evaluating the situation.

Also I do believe the shoot out brought up earlier about the cops killed because they were policing up their brass, was the infamous Miami FBI shootout in 1986, but I could be wrong.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the cops killed because they were policing up their brass</div></div>

I've heard that story most of my shooting life, long before '96, I've also heard it was bogus since no one could come up with a ligit sourse.

But lets assume its true. I don't know of any training venue that requires you to police your brass as soon and you dump the cylender.

BUT:

Muscle memory works both ways, you can istill bad habits as well as good.

It's like Practice Makes Perfect. That is a bogus statement right there..........Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.

If you work at it, you can train yourself to count to 5 before you shoot. Not a good ideal but if you do it enough, you'll count to 5 before you ever pull the trigger.

There is an old army saying "you fight as you train" that statment works equally well in police work.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issues of the NYPD and other departments is because of the brass and the lawyers, who are afraid that they will get sued for everything they do, so they come out with some stupid knee-jerk policies in reaction to something that happens instead of just fixing or dealing with issues the right way. Sk they end ip chasing their own tails. </div></div>

If the majority of individual officers were more proactive with training and forced to become more responsible for his/her continued training on their own, the department brass and lawyers might not have such knee-jerk reactions.

Again, as an electrician all training costs are out of my own pocket and I have to go to NEC classes every year to stay current on electrical codes, OSHA classes to stay current on safety codes & on the job hazards and be certified in Arc-Flash for my companies insurance. And I'm nothing more than a shitbird electrician.... don't you think LEOs should be every bit as trained in what they do for a living, if not more?
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All in all, I think a lot, if not all of the "cop bashing" would go away if LE went back to Rober Peel's Principles of policing;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.

Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

<span style="color: #FF0000">The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.</span></div></div></div></div>

Kraig I like all the principles above except the last one. I'm going to go slightly off the training focus in this thread perhaps, but I don't think the absence of crime is the correct yardstick by which to measure the police. First, it is patently unfair since the amount of crime in a community is proportional to the values the community holds..not the dedication of the police. The public foolishly demands zero crime and then complains at heavy handed tactics; well you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are communities that with the laziest and most inept police in the country will still have next to no crime at all. There are other communities where there will be significant crime even with a top notch department. The criminals determine whether there will be crime, not the officers, so the police do not have as much control of that as the public often expects.

A much better standard of policing is the conduct of the officers themselves. A much better standard for the law enforcement officers of a free society is their level of respect for liberty and the rule of law. <span style="font-style: italic">Protection of individual rights must always command a higher priority than stopping criminals.</span> The ends do not justify the means if liberty exists - the two principles are mutually exclusive (which is why stop and frisk is wrong). When we as a society demand Mayberry results in a community filled with crackheads and prostitutes we are giving the police a serious incentive to encroach on civil liberty to get results. The police are wrong for taking the bait, but we are wrong and worse we take for granted our own liberty when we ask them too.

The citizens of a free society must police their government if they are to remain free, so criticism of instruments of government power such as the police are not only the right but the <span style="font-style: italic">duty</span> of a good citizen. However the citizen who demands perfect security from the police in a free society is like the fool who gives his dog free reign to bite everyone else and then is surprised when one day it turns on him.

What I am saying is that it is right and proper to judge the police when they fall short of the Constitution and the protection of civil liberties, but also that we should praise them when they uphold those same principles <span style="font-style: italic">even if it means the bad guy gets away or we have a higher crime rate</span>. The police have done their duty in the fullest if they adhere to these principles, regardless of the crime rate. Liberty is not threatened by criminals in the neighborhood but by criminals in government. Citizens have recourse against fellow citizens who commit crimes and if there were no official police at all, a common situation earlier in our history ( and still somewhat present in some areas) there would still be "policing" going on. So why do we have official police then? Because they are supposed to be more respectful of liberty and civil rights than an untrained populace would be.

A public that is so uneducated these days that they don't understand what they should expect from police in a free society doesn't absolve the police from that duty, but it sure makes it difficult to create a culture in law enforcement that cultivates and sustains such officers. We should not make a difficult job harder by unfairly demanding the same results that police in Saudi or North Korea get while at the same time expecting the limitations on police conduct we must have if there is to be liberty. As for me, I agree with the law of the land; I choose liberty. That means limited government and limited law enforcement, and if that means more crime then so be it. I applaud every law enforcement officer who understands and respects that, and apologize to those officers for an unthinking public who largely does not know what proper performance of your duty even looks like, much less appreciate.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

You guys are taking the whole muscle memory thing to the extreme. Of course it is important. And if I sounded like muscle memory means nothing, then I worded something wrong. My whole point is that nothing that you do in training will really prepare you for the real thing. That is my point and I stand behind that.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the majority of individual officers were more proactive with training and forced to become more responsible for his/her continued training on their own</div></div>

Oh... and just think, if this were the reality we might even experience lower taxes as a by-product.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the 800lb gorilla in the room is the question of WHY heavy triggers are on NYPD firearms.

NYPD earned these heavy triggers due to past performance.

Tell it straight paul, you know the history of that department and it's not a pretty one.

</div></div>

And in this situation, those 12lb triggers are probably the reason for a lot of those misses. How ironic. The issues of the NYPD and other departments is because of the brass and the lawyers, who are afraid that they will get sued for everything they do, so they come out with some stupid knee-jerk policies in reaction to something that happens instead of just fixing or dealing with issues the right way. Sk they end ip chasing their own tails.</div></div>

Correct...hence my above post. There is plenty of blame to go around when the official use of force goes wrong. We as a society don't always get the police (or government) that the Constitution and the rule of law demand, but we will get the police or government we deserve instead. Our job as a society is to make those two as close as possible if we truly want to be a free people.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My whole point is that nothing that you do in training will really prepare you for the real thing.</div></div>

I'll agree with that, but it sure beats the heck of not training because you say you can't prepare for everything.

Another way to look at it. We all would agree that Special Forces or SEALs are much better then the average infantryman.

It doesn't take much to figure out why.......because they recieve a heck of a lot more training, and spend a heck of a lot more time training, over and over again. Good solid training.

As any SF or SEAL what they ow their abilities to, I doubt you'll find one that doesn't say TRAINING. Lots of books came out the last few years by and about SEALs, I've read many, and each one discusses their training.

Never heard one say that training ever hurt them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, why don't we just hand out soldiers a rifle and send them to war. No since in training because you can't train for everything.

Maybe some current or ex-seal/SF/Ranger will chime in on the importance of training and developing muscle memory.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

KYPatroit.

I have to agree with you on Peel's last item. Society has changed a lot since the early 1800s when Peel was devoloping his police theories.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My whole point is that nothing that you do in training will really prepare you for the real thing.</div></div>

I'll agree with that, but it sure beats the heck of not training because you say you can't prepare for everything.

Another way to look at it. We all would agree that Special Forces or SEALs are much better then the average infantryman.

It doesn't take much to figure out why.......because they recieve a heck of a lot more training, and spend a heck of a lot more time training, over and over again. Good solid training.

As any SF or SEAL what they ow their abilities to, I doubt you'll find one that doesn't say TRAINING. Lots of books came out the last few years by and about SEALs, I've read many, and each one discusses their training.

Never heard one say that training ever hurt them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, why don't we just hand out soldiers a rifle and send them to war. No since in training because you can't train for everything.

Maybe some current or ex-seal/SF/Ranger will chime in on the importance of training and developing muscle memory. </div></div>

Not going to argue with anything you wrote.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rero360</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. You would be able to think of all that if someone 3-5 yards away pulled out a gun on you? That is very impressive. </div></div>

With enough training, that is indeed possible, it becomes instinct to position yourself for the most effective and safest shot, not only to yourself (getting behind cover) but to others as well (ensuring you have a clean line of fire to and beyond the target)

While patrolling New Baghdad towards the begining of my deployment, I was a gunner, we rounded a corner and I saw a boy, young teenager, on top of one of the buildings that just came into view. The boy had what initially looked like a rifle in his hands pointed right at me, I brought my rifle up, flicked the safety off, and put my finger on the trigger (all while tracking him with my sights as I was in a moving vehicle) I did not shoot though because as my finger settled on the trigger I saw that the boy just had a piece of metal in his hands, not a gun. Total span of time probably 5 second or though.

Point is I know that with training under stress a person will able to make those split second decisions and perform higher level mental thought processes because they have that muscle memory so the body practically acts on its own, without conscious thought distracting from evaluating the situation.

Also I do believe the shoot out brought up earlier about the cops killed because they were policing up their brass, was the infamous Miami FBI shootout in 1986, but I could be wrong. </div></div>

My comment was intended to be a joke, but I get your point about the muscle memory.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.


Honestly, as bad as it is, we should also be careful not to make too much of incidents like this. It is obvious to me that these officers did not intend to injure nine additional people...so we may have a training issue and the after action analysis will sort that out if done honestly. Frankly, police officer mistakes of this kind are the least of my worries with respect to law enforcement. I care far more about misguided <span style="font-style: italic">intentional</span> police policy. The real threat any law enforcement agency poses to liberty is not the honest mistake but the well executed intentional violation of civil liberty that is rationalized away as being for the "public good."
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real threat any law enforcement agency poses to liberty is not the honest mistake but the well executed intentional violation of civil liberty that is rationalized away as being for the "public good." </div></div>

Well said KYpatriot, you hit the nail on the head.

The "public good" as defined by NYPD is where the problem lies. It's landed them in crosshairs of the Federal Courts for SYSTEMIC abuse and denial of basic rights. That's why I'm so hard on this department, and will continue to be as long they wipe their arses with the Constitution. If folks around the country had any clue how many hoops NY State makes it's residents go through just own a firearm, let alone carry, you'd understand just how unacceptable this shooting truly is. Without the badge, if you wounded 9 bystanders you'd be facing MULTIPLE FELONIES in this state and sent directly to jail. These cops will likely get a medal.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Honestly, as bad as it is, we should also be careful not to make too much of incidents like this. It is obvious to me that these officers did not intend to injure nine additional people...so we may have a training issue and the after action analysis will sort that out if done honestly. Frankly, police officer mistakes of this kind are the least of my worries with respect to law enforcement. I care far more about misguided <span style="font-style: italic">intentional</span> police policy. The real threat any law enforcement agency poses to liberty is not the honest mistake but the well executed intentional violation of civil liberty that is rationalized away as being for the "public good." </div></div>

Thanks you. I could have said it any better than this if I tried.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

Slappy-Happy-Choppy

bjbjhe.png
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

If I remember correctly, the "brass policing" incident involved the California Highway Patrol, at the side of one of our Southern California freeways. Again, IIRC, one of the officers was bending over picking up his fired brass when one of the criminals simply walked up and shot him in the head. When the officer's body was examined, there were fired cases from his own gun in his pocket. I believe that we were told, subsequent to the incident, that CHP officers had been told to always pick up their brass immediately after firing. I cannot imagine doing this when people are shooting at you, but, as KY has said, under stress we revert to our training. And, I would add, to what we have practiced, even if it was not part of our training, but something we just happened to do every time we trained.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issues of the NYPD and other departments is because of the brass and the lawyers, who are afraid that they will get sued for everything they do, so they come out with some stupid knee-jerk policies in reaction to something that happens instead of just fixing or dealing with issues the right way. Sk they end ip chasing their own tails. </div></div>

paulo, you've got the cart before the horse.

The policy was adopted in response to NYPD demonstrating a propensity for questionable shootings.

Those heavy triggers were EARNED.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issues of the NYPD and other departments is because of the brass and the lawyers, who are afraid that they will get sued for everything they do, so they come out with some stupid knee-jerk policies in reaction to something that happens instead of just fixing or dealing with issues the right way. Sk they end ip chasing their own tails. </div></div>

paulo, you've got the cart before the horse.

The policy was adopted in response to NYPD demonstrating a propensity for questionable shootings.

Those heavy triggers were EARNED. </div></div>

That may be true, but as a result of the heavy triggers, this happened, so are they now going to go back to what they had? Why not just fix the problem in the first place? Instead of "fixing it" by switching over to the 12lb triggers, they should have corrected the problem.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This type of post is EXACTLY why the public has turned against LE. Our local PD carries out threats and is very corrupt. The fact that you would actually threaten someone who disagrees with you or even insults you is actually quite typical of LE attitudes that result in the plunging respect citizens have for the profession.

Street cred? Spare me. What you forget when you post here is that there are many who see problems with modern LE who not only have faced dangerous situations, but have used deadly force in situations far more precarious than this, with weapons that have far greater opportunity for collateral damage, while being shot at, all while being held to a higher standard of accountability. The "it was a tough situation" excuse garners zero sympathy, and zero willingness to excuse poor results. The fact is, the job isn't for everyone, and many who have it shouldn't. In CAS, we were absolutely merciless with sub-standard performance because it WILL cause friendly deaths. When the CAS pilot he called for help accidentally wipes out his platoon, should the platoon leader just keep his mouth shut because HE has never rolled in hot "danger close" and therefore has no "street cred" to validate his criticism? Hardly. Guys who spent the best years of their lives at the exclusion of family and hobbies and personal lives training continually for the job were GONE at the behest of their peers when they didn't or couldn't execute correctly.

</div></div>

Obviously recognizing sarcasm isn't one of your strong suits. Now guys are crying over internet threats and because of my use of "foul language"? Classic, I figured it was men that we're talking here not 12 year old Nancys. If I offend you with my harsh language too fucking bad. Feel free to skip over my posts. As far as the "threats" go, really? Its the internet KY, I'm well aware that Gay Montage isn't going to come down here so he can be violated, just as I'm sure he's well aware that if he did, he wouldn't be violated.

We've all been down this road before and nothing changes. I'm sure we'll walk this walk again with the same results. If it were up to me, there would be no SQF, no proactive policing, no street crime unit, nothing. Call after the crime and we'll jot down a 61 and be done with it.

You guys want anarchy, have at it. See how long you can hold the fort down on your own. Let the fucking place burn for all I care, I don't live there nor do my family and friends.



"The only time the sheep is happy to see the sheepdog is when the wolf bares its fangs"
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Let the fucking place burn for all I care, I don't live there nor do my family and friends.</div></div>

Well that explains how you can sleep at night.

After a long day on the job, you ride the Metro-North to Fleetwood Station and wave goodbye to your victims.

Thanks for demonstrating your REAL commitment to people of NY.

 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

12 Pound triggers!

Wow I didn't know they had it that bad, that could quite possibly explain rounds going wildly off target even at a very close range.

Seriously did the politicians who made that decision have a remote understanding of anything?

Pulling through a 12 pound trigger pull and then the shot goes off & back to another 12 pound pull is going to give you horrible accuracy. I'd take a .357 or .44 magnum revolver (as long as it has a decently long barrel) over that any day.
 
Re: more BS for NY'rs inbound.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This type of post is EXACTLY why the public has turned against LE. Our local PD carries out threats and is very corrupt. The fact that you would actually threaten someone who disagrees with you or even insults you is actually quite typical of LE attitudes that result in the plunging respect citizens have for the profession.

Street cred? Spare me. What you forget when you post here is that there are many who see problems with modern LE who not only have faced dangerous situations, but have used deadly force in situations far more precarious than this, with weapons that have far greater opportunity for collateral damage, while being shot at, all while being held to a higher standard of accountability. The "it was a tough situation" excuse garners zero sympathy, and zero willingness to excuse poor results. The fact is, the job isn't for everyone, and many who have it shouldn't. In CAS, we were absolutely merciless with sub-standard performance because it WILL cause friendly deaths. When the CAS pilot he called for help accidentally wipes out his platoon, should the platoon leader just keep his mouth shut because HE has never rolled in hot "danger close" and therefore has no "street cred" to validate his criticism? Hardly. Guys who spent the best years of their lives at the exclusion of family and hobbies and personal lives training continually for the job were GONE at the behest of their peers when they didn't or couldn't execute correctly.

</div></div>

Obviously recognizing sarcasm isn't one of your strong suits. Now guys are crying over internet threats and because of my use of "foul language"? Classic, I figured it was men that we're talking here not 12 year old Nancys. If I offend you with my harsh language too fucking bad. Feel free to skip over my posts. As far as the "threats" go, really? Its the internet KY, I'm well aware that Gay Montage isn't going to come down here so he can be violated, just as I'm sure he's well aware that if he did, he wouldn't be violated.

We've all been down this road before and nothing changes. I'm sure we'll walk this walk again with the same results. If it were up to me, there would be no SQF, no proactive policing, no street crime unit, nothing. Call after the crime and we'll jot down a 61 and be done with it.

You guys want anarchy, have at it. See how long you can hold the fort down on your own. Let the fucking place burn for all I care, I don't live there nor do my family and friends.



"The only time the sheep is happy to see the sheepdog is when the wolf bares its fangs"</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Let the fucking place burn for all I care, I don't live there nor do my family and friends.</div></div>

Well that explains how you can sleep at night.

After a long day on the job of violating people's rights, you ride the Metro-North to Fleetwood Station and wave goodbye to your victims.

Thanks for demonstrating your REAL commitment to people of NY.

</div></div>

Ya'll play nice now.