Rifle Scopes My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

[Jcas2012]

So I have been reading all day the difference between Mil/Moa setups like a Leupold LR/T and the Mil/Mil setup like the ER/T M5 dials. Needless to say I can not decide if the M5 is worth the extra $280 bucks. I have grown up only knowing MOA on iron sights and scopes for hunting rifles and can obviously picture things in inches and yards much easier naturally however I keep hearing how great Mil/Mil is. I have not shot past 600 yards and that was with a Remington 700 VLS 22-250, nothing fancy and a old VX-III 3.5-10 scope. Most people who have shot at all know the basics of MOA since almost all scopes and sights have that measurement for the average user but I am new to the LONG range shooting game anyways. I can't afford a Nightforce or my first choice would be their MOA/MOA scope. I just can't seem to wrap my head around cm and meters as well. Is it easy to get use to? Everything I see I see in yards....

Is it hard to use the old school Mil/Moa combo? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Been reading everything I could find on the internet.

 

[B4forever]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I feel your pain. I was trained on MOA in the Army and have since switched to Mil/Mil. It's like trying to learn spanish but still thinking in English. I gotta say though...once you get it down Mils are awesome. For a majority of the time range doesn't matter, its all visual. If your round misses 1 mil to the right, just correct 1 mil left! No math involved! I now run an ER/T with M5 turrets and have never looked back.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Mils are not necessarily relevant to centimeters & meters only, although if you want to range in meters you can. I won't go into great detail on how they work because masters like Graham & Lindy have already covered that ad nauseum here (if you haven't read some of those articles, let me know & I'll track them down for you).

In my opinion, unless you are already just REALLY good with MOA/MOA or even MIL/MOA, if you are not using a MIL/MIL scope you might as well still be riding a horse for transportation, listening to 8-tracks & dropping your messages in a bottle for delivery.

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

i have an ERT M5 with the TMR reticle and I absolutely love it. I love it so much that Im buying another one tomorrow. The 6-20x50mm. The TMR is awesome. The M5 turrets are fantastic. Nice feel to them. Buy with confidence.

 

[dk-1]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Another thing to note is that 1/10 of a mil (click) is .36 inch at 100 yards. If you think of it that way it simplifies the game. With moa turrets, 1/4 (click) is .250 inch at 100 yards. Disclaimer: I know the moa Nazis here are going to flame me for saying 1/4 moa is .250 inch at 100 yards, but for all intents and purpose it is.

 

[dk-1]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Also, if you already know how to range with a mil reticle, switching to an moa reticle will be tough. I tried it and couldn't break my old habits.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

While I understand what you are saying dk, I don't think that thinking of .1 MIL as .36" at 100 yards simplifies anything... You're taking the easy out of MILs & going back to old school... Perhaps you mean early on it's good so he can grasp what .1 MIL is?

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I have been thinking about it more and more today and I think I am beginning to grasp and like mils better. With everything you guys just told me about the scope as well I think I am convinced and will take the plunge!

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

If you could track down those articles without much trouble I would love to read them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mils are not necessarily relevant to centimeters & meters only, although if you want to range in meters you can. I won't go into great detail on how they work because masters like Graham & Lindy have already covered that ad nauseum here (if you haven't read some of those articles, let me know & I'll track them down for you).

In my opinion, unless you are already just REALLY good with MOA/MOA or even MIL/MOA, if you are not using a MIL/MIL scope you might as well still be riding a horse for transportation, listening to 8-tracks & dropping your messages in a bottle for delivery. </div></div>

 

[frankythefly]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

The leupold M5 turrets are not only mil but are much better than the old "mushy" M1 turrets. Leupold gives no option at this time for a MOA/MOA setup and it makes absolutely no sense to get a MOA/MIL setup. So you are stuck with learning MIL/MIL or going to a different manufacture such as vortex, USO, etc that offers MOA/MOA. The only good things about the MOA/MIL lupys right now is the used prices for them, as they are getting cheaper and cheaper.

Also the last time I checked M1 and M5 Lupys are the same price, you may be confusing yourself by comparing the Mark4 LR/T line and the Mark4 ER/T line.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

That may be it however I can not find an option for an M5 in the LR/T, only ER/T. Is there ER/T just have the FFP as the only other difference?

 

[J-Ham]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I hit ya with a PM JCas...

 

[dk-1]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I understand what you are saying dk, I don't think that thinking of .1 MIL as .36" at 100 yards simplifies anything... You're taking the easy out of MILs & going back to old school... Perhaps you mean early on it's good so he can grasp what .1 MIL is? </div></div>

That's exactly why I referenced it, so he could have some level of comfort until he understands the full potential of a mil based system.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion, unless you are already just REALLY good with MOA/MOA or even MIL/MOA, if you are not using a MIL/MIL scope you might as well still be riding a horse for transportation, listening to 8-tracks & dropping your messages in a bottle for delivery. </div></div>

+1000

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

IMHO, it's not worth the $280 for M5 knobs.

I don't think it matters if you're scope is 1/4 MOA, 0.1 Mil, or 1/1000 Furlongs. Just make sure whatever scope you're using holds zero and tracks well.

You're going to shoot your yard lines, stick your dope somewhere on your rifle, and probably end up memorizing most of it anyway.

Point is, your not going to be doing a lot of math on the fly other than using your reticle to establish distance (and mildot master makes that very easy).

Once you shoot your yardlines and record you're dope, 550 yards is 14 MOA (46 clicks) or 4.1 MIL (41 clicks).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dieselgeek]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I have no idea why they still make mismatched turrets.


MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA is the only way to go. YES get the M5s. Everything is faster, there is no learning curve. Read your scope, dial your correction. Simple as that.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Good to go guys thanks for all the input I feel a lot better now about understanding everything. And I was wrong, it is $280 more but it is the difference between the 6.5-20x50mm M1 LR/T and the 6.5-20x50mm M5 FFP ER/T. So the cost difference is the M5 and FFP so I think it's worth it.

 

[dieselgeek]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

yeah, it's way worth it. The LR/T w/ M1s is a pretty old scope compared to the ER/T

 

[J-Ham]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk-1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's exactly why I referenced it, so he could have some level of comfort until he understands the full potential of a mil based system.</div></div>
Gotcha dk, that makes sense, carry on.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Does the ER/T have anything different/updated like any changes in the glass or lens system that makes it updated or just the dials and FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselgeek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, it's way worth it. The LR/T w/ M1s is a pretty old scope compared to the ER/T </div></div>

 

[para1505]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I have 2 scopes. One is a SS10x42HD, the other one is a USO 3.2-17x44 IPHY/IPHY. I like the MIL/MIL system better.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCas45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the ER/T have anything different/updated like any changes in the glass or lens system that makes it updated or just the dials and FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselgeek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah, it's way worth it. The LR/T w/ M1s is a pretty old scope compared to the ER/T </div></div> </div></div>

The M5 dials can be had on both the LR/T and ER/T scopes. ER/T scopes are mostly FFP, but there are a couple of models that are SFP. Most LR/T scopes are SFP but there are a couple of 3.5-10's that you can get FFP.

Pick the features you want such as FFP and M5 knobs, then find the scope that matches what you want.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

One other thing no one has mentioned as a reason to go FFP is shooting moving targets. Having an FFP reticle means that your holds are applicable no matter the magnification. So that means a 2 mil hold for a mover at 200 yards can be held in any magnification (likely a low one, but you can just dial down the mag and shoot without adjusting your hold).

With an SFP scope you'd have to either remember to use full magnification (not a good option on a high power scope at 200 yards), or remember to compensate on the fly by reducing your hold such as 1 mil at 11x magnification or 1/2 mil at 5.5x on a 22x max mag scope like the NXS.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

Vinson, I recently learned about the mil holds with the FFP being true at any magnification setting and quickly realized how useful that is. However I never thought about moving targets working the same way with mil holds. This would probably be one of the biggest and most useful features to me as I can plan on doing quite a bit of coyote hunting with my new rifle when I return home on leave. A lot of times we have had several coyotes circling in the distance at the same time moving around. Would be very beneficial to utilize my mil holds for them on the move no matter the power setting.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

neither, better scopes out there, do more reading around here and you'll find out.

 

[Jcas2012]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I don't have the money for a Nightforce or higher grade so Leupold it is.

 

[dk-1]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCas45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have the money for a Nightforce or higher grade so Leupold it is. </div></div>

FWIW, I started with Mark 4 then "upgraded" to Nightforce... I was VERY dissapointed in the quality of the glass, so much so, that I sent it back to the company for evaluation. The quality of glass was below that of a Vari-x 2 I had on a hunting rig. They had it for a couple of weeks, said the diopter was out of whack and they "fixed" it. When I got it back I noticed absolutley no change. I sold it and went back to a Mark 4. My Leupolds have never failed me.

 

[Nysios]

Re: My head is spinning....Leupold M1 or M5??

I have a mark 4 LR/T w/ M1 I plan on sending it for the M5 knobs. MOA/MIL is very annoying.